Rob Rinder MBE | Extraordinary Life Stories

22:29Rob Rinder:Smith. There's somebody that comes out of the bushes in a Judge Rinder mask and plunges a knife into Mr. Smith's back, a big old machete. You out of sheer human altruism run up to him, pull the knife out of his... Covered in blood now. Right, turns over. All the neighbours come out at this point to hear what's going on. And as he looks up at you, he shouts murder. I come and see you and I say, listen, love. I call my clients from time to time. it doesn't look good for you your fingerprints are all over the murder weapon blunt spatter is everywhere you were phoning your wife all day saying you were going to kill him there are searches on your computer saying I'm going to kill my neighbour and what's more as he looked up at you he shouted murder and because it's a dying declaration that's admissible in court and all of the neighbours heard him say it your response it wasn't me it was somebody else now what you're saying might just be true and it's essential isn't it that the jury not me, not the judge

23:38John Reynolds:but in our community

23:42Rob Rinder:have the chance to evaluate, imagine a guilty person, excuse me imagine an innocent person you knew had gone to prison for doing something that they hadn't done and that happens and when it does happen the confidence that communities have in democracy in all of the institutions that safeguard what it means to be free start to dissolve so i'll give you an example very quickly i hope in certain parts of america where they don't have legal aid and that's one of the or they have they do have legal aid because the excuse me the The Constitution guarantees a right to a lawyer, but these lawyers are under the caution.

24:27Rob Rinder:They're very young. In this country, I wouldn't have done an attempted murder on my own to at least I was seven or eight years experience. America just doesn't work like that. So imagine you're a public defender and you've got 50 cases, right? And stuff we can't do in this country. But this young person of color comes to see you and he's, in fact, you go and see him because he's being charged with armed robbery. and it's not him but there's video evidence and the it's mistaken identity case he doesn't know who it is but for some reason there looks like him on the cctv and perhaps he's been there early in the day so there's some dna that they've they've they've got which connects him to the sea you go and um rather the lawyer goes and sees that person and he says look it wasn't me and you need to go and get an expert because there are other, there's other DNA samples that need to be collected.

25:24Rob Rinder:And you need an expert to show that that face mapping is completely wrong. And also, by the way, I was here, I can't get to that witness, but listen, help me out here. And this young defendant says, I've got 50 other cases. It looks pretty overwhelming. I've also spoken to the prosecutor and what she's offering, even though you're here for armed robbery and the sentence is 30 years, an American type of sentence, they're offering to cut it down to a second degree robbery. So the judge will only give you five years. They're offering a five-year sentence instead of 30. By the way, we're in a community where there's lots of white juries.

26:08Rob Rinder:I think it's going to go very well for you. And there's no money for an expert, by the way. now confronted with the risk of 30 years versus five knowing that you might be away for your from your family for that long the rest of your life what might you do now imagine you knew one person to whom that had happened in your community that person actually wasn't guilty but they had no money for a lawyer so they took the five instead of the 30. Imagine you one. Imagine you 30. To him that had happened. What does that do to your relationship with the state and the community and how you're valued? Which is why having legal aid is so important in this country and why again I keep coming back to this word there are certain things about democracy under the rule of law which are sacred and which we can't be complacent about but that was the mission of the job one of the

27:07John Reynolds:things i was thinking then is in your position that the trust that that you've got to have in yourself the confidence in your own ability uh let alone then of course the jury in in the way the system works to come to the right you know the right result if you like and just listening to that story you gave of the you know the messages sent the stabbing the blood on the close it's like gosh you know how many how many potentially uh cases have have not been proven well we do our best and we have like no that's it but mostly the jury get it right good to hear i have to say i've i found that to be the case there was that's one of those i'm gonna ask you but i'll tell you where i was going is so um the use of tech and ai in so many different businesses would it ever replace the role you have as as a judge and the jury but the question i also have is because I think in a previous conversation, I've heard you say, I can't see it.

27:57John Reynolds:But if you look at football, the VAR, the ref has got the final decision. He's got the linesman and so on, but he's now also got, you know, AI plugging in. You know, we've got, you could argue that's cameras and so on, but it's extra information. And with all the information you have as part of a case, the algorithm could spin through and it cuts out emotion. And this is one of the reasons why I asked you the question about blocking out the emotion and your own opinion from stuff. Like you mentioned that story with the£100. AI cuts through all of that. Do you think that that will come into the system of judgment a lot more and in any way replace it?

28:38John Reynolds:I desperately hope not.

28:40Rob Rinder:If we reach what you're talking about, it's often said that a great lawyer is dispassionate. In other words, she coldly and thoughtfully cuts through any of the emotional features of a case and goes directly to the law. Now, in some instances, commercial cases, let's say, that is right. You know, feelings don't sort of really matter. You know, what happened between ship A and ship B, where, for example, there's some engineering or technical issue that resulted in an insurer not paying out. You can perhaps see in those circumstances a role for AI helping judges where human decisions are not the critical issue, but this sort of engineering feature is what really people are disputing.

29:32Rob Rinder:It is a conflict in the case. You can see that being of some use to arbitrators and to the high court perhaps, but those are a very narrow group of cases. If we reach the stage where IAI is making determinations on the critical elements of how a jury determines a case, in other words, what you're talking about, the human stories at the heart of why people commit crime, then we're really in trouble. I agree. Let me give you an example of that. There are so many. There was a case in which a woman, this is some years ago, sleeping next to her husband, gets out of bed. She boils water and puts in a very large bowl to a lethal temperature.

30:32Rob Rinder:her husband is sleeping next to her she takes a bowl she goes upstairs she pours it all over him he dies she deliberately kills him right straightforward says ai why because the law is technical it has ingredients what's the mental element well she intended to kill him or to cause gbh that's called the mens rea you know we don't have to look in a textbook legally blonde will helped you with that. It's a men's rare. What's the actus rares? Well, she did it. The man is dead. Thought sweetgreen was just salads? Think again. There's a new way to do sweetgreen. Wrapped and ready. These handheld wraps pack bold flavor and 40 plus grams of protein into something hearty, satisfying, and built for life on the go.

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31:55Rob Rinder:EbGliss, Librikizumab, LBKZ, a 250 milligram per two milliliter injection is a prescription medicine used to treat adults and children 12 years of age and older who weigh at least 88 pounds or 40 kilograms with moderate to severe eczema. Also called atopic dermatitis that is not well controlled with prescription therapies used on the skin or topicals or who cannot use topical therapies. EbGliss can be used with or without topical corticosteroids. Don't use if you're allergic to EbGliss. Allergic reactions can occur that can be severe. Eye problems can occur. Tell your doctor if you have new or worsening eye problems.

32:23Rob Rinder:You should not receive a live vaccine when treated with EBCLIS. Before starting EBCLIS, tell your doctor if you have a parasitic infection. Ask your doctor about EBCLIS and visit ebglis.lily.com or call 1-800-LILY-RX or 1-800-545-5979. Well, hey, I says you're guilty. What if I were to tell you that that woman had experienced systematic abuse over 20 years to the point where where she no longer had any sense of safety, not just in her own house, but in her own mind. Now, what evolved as a result of that case, which is called Alawalia, a very important case, is that she ended up, well, her murder conviction was reduced to manslaughter because a court of appeal, three human beings, acknowledged there are certain circumstances in which human treatment is so bad that your state of mind is so radically affected.

33:29Rob Rinder:And of course, you shouldn't be held to account in the same way as somebody who cold-bloodedly intends to kill somebody. Now, if a computer has that degree and depth of empathy at some point, then I think humankind is in real trouble. Yeah, so I hope God.

33:50John Reynolds:That's powerful. Yeah. And you're right. The circumstances have to be opened up. And it's interesting you say, and you're the same, you know, the judge in that case has to remove themselves emotionally, but actually you're incredibly emotionally intelligent. so it's actually you know it's almost the irony is you've got to you've got to be emotionally intelligent enough to detach yourself to do that but in every other form of life you are you know you you bring humor wit and intelligence academia into a whole conversation which which is far more than just being in the in the courtroom i explained that right so you've actually got to you remove yourself from it but you've got to be intelligent enough to do that you know it's

34:30Rob Rinder:interesting is I don't know if you feel like this but um there's almost nothing worse you go to television meetings right and people give you compliments it's a British thing and I feel myself whatever protruding parts of my body are on display I feel that there's none left that I that can can cringe anymore is that imposter syndrome to be sure but I also think it's the stuff that safeguards us safeguards us against becoming monsters you know when somebody compliments I think if you don't bristle internally a little bit or have a thin degree of suspicion, you know, there's a very good chance that you're the type of person who thinks it's wise to invade Poland.

35:12John Reynolds:I suppose the best way to look at it is I relate it to sport. So Max Verstappen is killing it in Formula One at the moment. Yeah. I wasn't in Formula One until the... To survive. To survive on Netflix. Yeah. Who knew? You're not alone. So good. So there's a history in the...

35:28Rob Rinder:You've been made television, right? that's incredible and the producers that have made and how it's cut and again we watch that and delight in it but we don't necessarily appreciate just the emotional intelligence the technical gifts and the general range of talent that goes into and the editing that goes into creating a piece of work like that that's helvenised the world and got me thought that it was

35:53John Reynolds:just the most boring sport my wife watches it with me now of course I mean she won't watch she pretty much might watch a race now but no chance you know uh or i'm not gonna wash the rain now but this is it i just want the soap opera and the hot drive isn't that fun yeah that's good good to know and clearly it's doing so well but just using that as an example drivers for years have had a certain amount of neutral respect not not doing certain maneuvers that could be considerably dangerous and have wanted to win with the prestige of winning fairly and then you get someone that comes into the sport that removes all that emotion.

36:26John Reynolds:I don't care about that. I just want to win. It's just about winning. And that mindset, and it is a mindset, it kind of goes back to the whole mental health conversation has been drilled into him from such a young age by his father. He had the same scenario. So without going into the details, you know, he'll win a championship at all costs and it doesn't matter how he wins. That's quite dangerous, literally. And it's quite, it's ruthless and it removes a lot of empathy it removes a lot of emotion whereas there are other drivers in on that grid that would not want to they've got the emotional intelligence to go i could do that i it would probably allow me to win to do that but i'm not going to right that's the point i was

37:07Rob Rinder:trying to get well there's two sorts of um impulses sometimes they're necessary in the world that i'm as a barrister and as mainly as a sort of now documentarian, I mean, I present to be sure, but the big work I make, you know, be it work on the Holocaust or extended pieces on Israel, Palestine, et cetera, there are ethical constraints that mean that even if I wanted to get that interview and it's absolutely essential to the work, if it in any way sort of interfered with the ethical view that I took about the world or the standards of, that are thoughtfully set by colleagues, I was going to interfere with them in some way or undermine them.

37:50Rob Rinder:I wouldn't do it, to be sure. Because there's a spiritual cost to being that person. But most importantly, the work is undermined. But there are circumstances which we have to acknowledge. There are forms of business. There are even moments in politics where winning at all costs, let's say, looking at the rules that are in place and the constraints that are there, frankly, shouldn't be followed. It's very difficult to determine when that applies. But it's nevertheless a universal truth that sometimes the most ruthless trader wins, sometimes, and makes the most money. Now, if you're in a world where money is at the epicenter of what you're trying to achieve and you're not breaking any laws, then why isn't that person a winner if money is at the heart of it?

38:48You know, I can't answer that question.

38:51Rob Rinder:Again, in politics, depends what you mean when we think about winning. But let's say, you know, you look at constraints on a government which don't appear fair to a government. There are circumstances where it's important to be, as we might say, ruthless. And sometimes decisions have to be made in a very difficult context, quite coldly. and whilst you can acknowledge that there are human emotions that have to be taken into consideration nevertheless the things that you're dealing with require such seriousness and have such existential consequence that ruthlessness and winning as you might say is essential and the type of people who can do that and still hold on to their soul those are leaders and they're very very hard to find and to come by

39:50John Reynolds:yeah right totally we don't sit comfortably

39:54Rob Rinder:with that you know i friends and colleagues who as lawyers and leaders in various parts of our government let's say and i be careful about how i phrase them you know who have to make extremely difficult calls you know we in this country do our very best to be as ethical as possible when it comes to theatres of war, which partly I've been a lawyer advising in various issues there. Now, those require really challenging judgment. They're not cold and ruthless. There are rules to be sure that you do not want to ever break, but nevertheless, they're very, very hard. You don't want to be Max Verstappen in that moment and say, he seemingly does what you tell me, you know you also have to be piercingly clear about making difficult choices sometimes where the outcome might be really bad that's hard comes back to intelligence for me

40:54John Reynolds:there's so much so much knowledge in you and actually talk about mental health you've been incredibly open and i think put yourself almost deliberately out of your own comfort zone at many times in your life which has actually made you stronger i'd love to know how you prioritize your mental health now what works for you and what what you do because i use that term sort of maturity and perspective from earlier you know you've been part of um some really high profile high intensity you know times in your life you talked about burnout before but just right now you seem really content today today yeah maybe that's maybe that's me no no that's it's a delight to be here and to

41:34Rob Rinder:talk to you so i'm really happy i'm having a really lovely morning connecting with someone And I feel that.

41:38John Reynolds:Yeah, that's nice. This is lovely. But it's a constant battle, isn't it? Yes. Yeah. And I wondered kind of almost how you combat that. What do you do? There's so many things we can do. Meditation to, you know, the gym, to going for a walk in nature. Just wondered what works for you.

41:54Rob Rinder:Three things. Finishing something in a day. And for me, that's exercise. So don't get me wrong. I mean, it's nice to have an ancillary benefit if you eventually can get there and your body looks pleasant. but happily or unhappily, nobody's looking at mine. And also, that's not why I go. So I came to you from Barry's Bootcamp this morning. The reason I go there, in addition to being a good workout, is because I put my phone away and it's a neat hour. You think about even this discussion, anything we do during a day, you know, you don't really cross it off the list. And there's a little serotonin thwack, a little kind of gift of endorphin that you get simply by having worked out, it's done.

42:37Rob Rinder:And it's, I don't know, sometimes I'll go at six in the morning and there you are, I'm done. Ticked off, that's great. And all of the self-evident benefits that just exercising gifts you, right? That and cold swimming. Secondly, which I'm really trying, waking up in the morning and doing your best to find gratitude. It's so essential. You know, however challenging, however corrosive the world around you is, however toxic the world presents itself to you, and boy is it now easy, easier than it's ever been in the history of humankind to be totally saturated by the darkness. reminding yourself that that doesn't represent the majority of what the community around you think and most importantly finding something to remind yourself to delight in there's always that's helpful thirdly not taking yourself too seriously i think that's so essential you know one of my great heroes maya angelic it's worth listening to the last interview she did with Anderson Cooper.

43:46Rob Rinder:It's so wonderful. She was a great writer and public speaker, public intellectual, hugely influential. And she knew Martin Luther King and Malcolm X and the lot, right? This last interview, pretty much, she gave, she was talking about being an activist with them. People were very reverential to her, as you can imagine. And she said, you know, we used to cry together. She meant Martin Luther King and all of these people that actively changed the world. But we used to cry together. She said, but we also used to laugh. She said, I don't trust anybody who goes around going, I'm serious, like they've got glue on the back of their hand.

44:28Rob Rinder:I'm so serious. You're boring as a ****. I said, there's three elements of, you know, trying to do something that's a gift for you in a day insofar as possible. whatever that is and finishing it finding something to be grateful in a friendship whatever it is but it's good finding something good about the world whatever that is and lastly remembering we're not here for long so how f***ing awful yeah and pull yourself together

44:56John Reynolds:we can get caught really complicated in our own heads about how self-important or how something that's affecting our day there's actually it's nothing right it's so funny i mean also like

45:07Rob Rinder:people I meet, some of them are got all these highfalutin jobs and some of them are in serious branches of government and you know, been at university with some of these people who've lit their own

45:18John Reynolds:deodorant cap. I love that, you bring humour to so much of what you do, including even really quite serious conversations and serious situations, you bring humour. Is that deliberate? Is that something that you, it almost goes back to the acting days and the five year old that was bringing the voice in to your world, you know. Was it a coping mechanism or does it come naturally because it feels to me or if it comes naturally to you, you do it effortlessly?

45:43Rob Rinder:I don't think I go into the world sort of consciously trying to be anything. I mean, we're the sum of all of our... Of course. Organicly we've become... Right. But some things are just funny. And especially if you're in a challenging situation, you know, various challenging parts of the world, it's just funny.

46:00John Reynolds:Yeah.

46:01Rob Rinder:Who wants to be around some po-phase misery guts? you know and actually sometimes if you make everybody laugh or especially if there's adversity not only do you kind of lift the spirit let's say of the room but it's a kind of fake it till you make it situation but that humor has a you know effectively physical and consequent emotional capacity just to change the emotional chemistry of a space disarms people right so i mean the best thing i did last year which was life-changing wonderful although really annoyingly because I had to go and film I wasn't allowed to do the last day which is only 20 kilometers but they sweetly gave me a discretionary medal because nobody's ever left on the fun run day I did the marathon de Sable that's through the desert right yeah and people all go oof and actually they overthink me included no because you overthink it it's basically a walk I mean in my case that way I was doing a very hot mince for a long period of time but I love deserts so you're asking about my mental health, the thing that has gifted me more than anything else in my life has been two occasions.

47:08Rob Rinder:One, when I went for comic relief and was running across the Sanjins in Namibia. And then last year, crossing the Sahara Desert. And it's without question, the most profound experience I've ever had. So 50 degrees, I was with, I would say army colleagues, because I'm an honorary colonel of the Royal Corps of Army Music, but not really colleagues because people I was with were badass. You've got Heather Stanley gold medalist, double gold medalist, Mark Nooney, who has won the military cross. And when he was told of his award and its extraordinary conspicuous, you get that for extraordinary conspicuous bravery awarded at Buckingham Palace.

47:52Rob Rinder:He's a colonel. And what he did in dispatches is staggering in a movie of its own when his commanding officer told him he said whatever for that's that talk whereas if i had done that the whole world would know there'd be there'd be a there'd be a like a movie series about it you know he's that person and paul carney who's top soldier's actual job so we're sort of running with each other and um the thing that's incredible and moving for me is that when you're in the desert not right you're just walking one step in front of the other, no phone. You're conscripted wholly into presence. There's nothing behind you, nothing in front of you.

48:32Rob Rinder:The only thing that you have is the breath. And so it takes you physically and consequently emotionally to a place that is unique. It's no coincidence, I always think that, or I now think I should say that, so many biblical philosophies have emerged from desert landscapes. Because when you're looking out and there's nothing to see, it takes you wholly inside. No distractions. Right. And when you have that sense of presence, you know, people talk about it when they do yoga and stuff, which I've never been able to do. Not least because I'm not very subtle and also the type of places I've gone to do yoga make me feel valuable.

49:13John Reynolds:I'm exactly the same.

49:14Rob Rinder:And I think I probably got ADHD somewhere in there as well. And also, you know, you go to Primrose Hill and there's, you know, have your own journey. and there's like four women who are putting their legs over their head and it's really about being competitive. Do you know what I mean? I do. You know, they're like sort of angry. The type of people that are on WhatsApp groups and are sort of passively aggressively sort of telling you how marvellous their children are, it's that sort of thing. It's not my sort of thing. This is the opposite of that. It's the closest that I've ever come to being connected to the universe and the divine, whatever that is for you, to the point where there were days, a couple of days, I was walking.

49:47Rob Rinder:this happened in namibia too where for reasons i cannot explain or really meaningfully adequately describe i found myself just crying and it was this outpouring exquisite connection with presence and it was amazing and it was for about two months afterwards i was on this endorphin tsunami of the happiest human in the world you know if you'd met me delighted and see everyone you know friends of mine sort of notice the difference i do have a tendency for depression and consequently to disappear and not to be around but i've just my best self and that lasted for about two months the problem the problem then was well that was incredible that connection i need to go and find it again so how do i find a way of having that moment of wonderfulness and for me it was very extreme it was in the desert but it doesn't need to be that it could be your a wedded wherever you were your most happy your best self let's say that took you in with emotional surplus for the rest of the week how do i get back there you know instead of having this sort of crush and fall two months later go what next and that's the constant battle for me and what could you do

51:04John Reynolds:what can you do that clearly you can't go walk in a desert in in the uk but from an everyday point of view is there something that i did try and go to the lake district and it was lovely

51:14Rob Rinder:but cockermouth did not deliver on what i thought geographically it had promised it's a very important uh part of the world for my family story to be sure windermere especially but it it wasn't you know i mean apart from anything else a pint there is like you know 15 quid it's more expensive than none. What's that about?

51:34John Reynolds:There's so many things you've done and you're naturally curious. You're someone that, you know, is clearly always looking for new experiences. What have you not done? I'm probably relating this more to the sort of entertainment workspace that you would really like to do.

51:50Rob Rinder:Well, you're right. I'm so surprised and it's not just imposter syndrome. It's much bigger for me. It exists in a slightly more problematic way. what I'm about to say is that a couple of years ago, it was like everything I ever wanted happened. And I was waiting. This is how I exist. And part of this is, for me, I believe it to be a Jewish impulse. Because although my family have been here for two generations, because my grandfather was a survivor, generationally we've always existed slightly existentially threatened. And part of the Jewish psychology, which plays an important role in my cultural, well, actually being brought up both religiously and culturally.

52:36Rob Rinder:If anything good happens, I'm sure it's not just a Jewish thing, I'm sure lots of people feel like this, but I believe it to be connected to that in my life. I'm waiting for the karmic thwack. Like if something amazing happens, I have to downplay it. Because if I say it's fantastic, the boomerang is going to come and then I'm going to find something catastrophically wrong that happens. I know what you mean actually I've had so many opportunities to do things that I've always wanted to I got to write a novel and it went well and conduct some of an opera and give a lecture about various things and get a doctorate from UCL and I make a programme with amazing hotels

53:21John Reynolds:everyone's loving that

53:22Rob Rinder:living the dream

53:23John Reynolds:yeah and it's fantastic and that's something you wanted to do that i mean to me don't get me wrong

53:28Rob Rinder:but somebody says would you like to go and uh and i had to speak a bit of russian and french but you know i mean so said would you like to go amazing hotels and share them with the world who's gonna say no yes yeah thank you for right so all of this wonderful thing happened happens and continues i get all these opportunities to do fantastic things and share stories which is the thing I most care about, prison documentary, as we were talking before, enabling and empowering people to connect with an idea through a human story. What binds us is, I'm going to find empathy with you, not because you've told me to be empathetic, but because I've met you.

54:08Rob Rinder:And so that changes my view about the world, or at least helps me walk away thinking it's more complex. So whether that's telling the story of Israel-Palestine and enabling people that don't know about that part of the world, or even if they have strong views to go and hear the stories of individuals, they go, goodness me, that's complex. Or people have strong views about prisons in either direction, usually thinking that they are too lenient, etc. Fine, have that view, but at least have the emotional honesty to go and visit. And if you can't watch this programme, that's the stuff I get to do but it's been so such a gift and I make this work with such amazing people and or going around you know art galleries with Ryland it's been a delight and um consequently people going to art galleries now which was spaces I never thought I'd be able to

54:52John Reynolds:go to when I was a little boy goes back to the drive to survive for one your relatability your relevance and your way of putting things across brings people that perhaps weren't maybe

55:03Rob Rinder:you're asking what do I want to do the reason I wanted to share it is because I feel so like if If I say to you, I want to do this, it feels somehow that I'm being, I'm lacking the gratitude of acknowledging what I've already done. The same time as sharing with you the fact that when good things happen to me, and I've had so many good things happen to me, or when I'm invited to do something I've always wanted to do, and I've had so many opportunities to do that, I literally feel that I'm months away from the terminal diagnosis. you know i live with that that shadow and i think a lot of people do you know don't say anything because you might bring bad luck down you know so in terms of what i want to do next um i mean i've got a new series with rylan coming out and i love that work you guys are great together that's a great i love it see when somebody asked me about intelligence i point to rylan i mean two Two examples.

56:02Rob Rinder:One, I was doing the cryptic crossword one day. He's never done a cryptic crossword. He's just not interested in that sort of thing. You know, he's never even looked at one. I was really struggling with this last clue and I brought it down to breakfast when we were in India. He goes, what is it then? I don't know what's... Hold on. It's this in it. That sort of... Real stuff. Not my stuff. You know, I'm a... I've read lots of books. I've done, you know, let's say the work. I'm a kind of boring or a thick person's version of what an intelligent person sounds like. No one would describe it as that.

56:32Rob Rinder:No, no, no, it's an element. No, what I mean is it's earned, it's worked. But the type of cleverness that I covet is his sort of immediate intelligence. It's a talent. You can learn to play the piano, but it doesn't mean you're going to be horrible. It's a great pianist. That's what he is. When we were in Italy, I went to this room which had this fresco by an artist called Artemisa Gentileschi. Some people would have seen the programme in Florence. And I know a lot about her and the art curator who was there, an American from Florence, who gave me, well, she wasn't very keen on me. And I'm doing all the stuff because I'm so thirsty for this woman to like me.

57:08Rob Rinder:Find me intelligent. Love me. You know what I mean? You know, she's the expert. What does she want to hear from me? You know, some bloke she's never heard of who she might have seen on TikTok, you know, dealing with a case about, you know, some dog shacking a cat. shouldn't know what else I've done or certainly doesn't care whether I got a PhD or not. She's the expert. Anyway, but this extraordinary building that's the place that Michelangelo, the palazzo, he lived in a palace, he lived in left to his nephew, who's built, excuse me, who's painted all of these paintings on the ceiling as frescoes, which are little fragments of Michelangelo's life.

57:45Rob Rinder:The moment that he was commissioned to paint the Sistine Chapel. And, you know, telling her about form and mansplaining, as my goddaughters would say, her entire life's going, all right, you know. And she's really not that interested. Then in comes Ryla and he looks up at this whole thing. He looks down at her because he's about 10 foot and she's fallen. You know, it's like Graceland in here, isn't it? Because she instantly mouths, she goes, that is exactly what this place is. Which is right. Brilliant, raw emotion. well it's it's truth connected to impulse connected to the sense of confidence and safety go it's that in it and he's and he's right love that that's the real intelligence you know you know say it as it is say it as it is but you know and be feel safe enough to get it wrong yes you're more likely to get right you know i mean yeah you must have an amazing barometer for

58:44John Reynolds:bs having professionally been in those environments and so you must the the authenticity of someone people you spend time with which actually is true to everything i'm doing everyone that i want to talk with on external stories i want to be able to just be myself then be themselves so i imagine you'll be really looking forward to filming with rylan for that reason because also everything's off camera as well you've got time with someone you you love trust and enjoy spending

59:07Rob Rinder:time with right the bs thing is a really big thing i've got a i i think who have any meaningful talent because i want to be emphasized the type of things that i get celebrated for you know all a list, wonderful you speak languages. Reality is, you go to 90 % of the world, especially in the non-anglophone world, everybody speaks their local dialect, their national language, and at least English. And nobody sort of says, oh, you must be desperately intelligent. It's just part of the way you grow up. Here you speak a language, oh, goodness me, you must be intelligent. You could be, you know, thick as a plank.

59:41Rob Rinder:It just so happens you've had languages. I mean, it's naturally acquired if somebody's been kind enough to speak at you for long enough when you're a child. I must emphasize that. You never lie doing cases, but you're finding language. And most importantly, when you're cross-examining somebody, and I learned from this brilliant cross-examiner in the business, who could have had the most stellar career and is still extraordinarily gifted, but is a very complex person. What you're ostensibly doing when you're trying to, not all cases, but most instances of cross-examination where the evidence they have is vital is you're trying to find the truth right but you're trying to crowd out the noise of and you need to be able to have these sort of almost emotional antennae to trust your intuitive impulses to go hang on that's just and to call it out i do think i have that but the other thing is i also it's because i've got a very low tolerance threshold for this episode is brought to you by peloton break through the busiest time of year with the brand new peloton cross training tread plus powered by peloton iq with real-time guidance and endless ways to move you can personalize your workouts and train with confidence helping you reach your goals in less time let yourself run lift sculpt push and go explore the new peloton cross training tread plus at onepeloton.com This episode is brought to you by Indeed.

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1:01:39John Reynolds:I literally wrote that down in my notes that there must be zero tolerance for it. But what that means is, you know... That's tried and tested over years of...

1:01:49Rob Rinder:Being on it, like, what do you think? You know, like...

1:01:52John Reynolds:And we're similar age. Yeah, I'm 77. You're longer than me, too. But there's definitely a tolerance thing that's come into my world where, you know, I'm less tolerant for it, you know, and I need to be around authentic people.

1:02:07Rob Rinder:Yeah, but I don't care what you say, just as long as it's real.

1:02:10John Reynolds:Yes.

1:02:11Rob Rinder:You don't find language. I mean, you know, there's sometimes, as we started this at the beginning, where if you're in a space where somebody can't change what's happening or the decision they've made, kindness is nearly always more important than truth. If, you know, the sister of the bride is coming to you in a rather unhappy dress, it's important to find a kind adjective. Yes. Don't you look energetic or something? You know, that's not a moment, you know, for truth. You know, couldn't you? Obviously, that's sort of common sense. But most of the time, I just want somebody to feel safe enough to tell me the truth.

1:02:43Rob Rinder:And from there comes the best ideas. And most importantly, people use their truth. I think this is the only context in which it actually works. It means that you get a sense of what they're thinking about it, their truth. So the world that I'm really interested in, I introduce Ryle into, opera, for example. and I can't tell you the number of times I've walked out you know you sit next to somebody especially in the more expensive operas and you've got I don't know I do speak German but you know the Baroness that means you know electric tram stop in German oh Rob pearls are so hot Vossen said such a funny joke that wasn't it's Strauss what's funny about it it's not funny at all you're only laughing because you're displaying You know, didn't I get the joke?

1:03:37Rob Rinder:I mean, what...

1:03:38John Reynolds:Pompous.

1:03:39Rob Rinder:It's deliberately designed, that sort of display, to exclude others around you and to Peacock, to signal to the world that you got it and you might not have done. P*** that person. Now, if you really get it, you can always tell. Right. And I hate that sort of thing. You know, I'd much rather... People felt, as I say, empowered to be said, to go into art galleries and the things that I connect to that I think really enrich the cultural life of individuals and consequently society and humankind at large, as long as you have the honesty and curiosity, which are two elements that you can't live without, to stand in front of a painting, to sit in an opera, just to do that bit of work, if it touched you, great.

1:04:28Rob Rinder:but if you walked out going well, s***, fine but as long as you've had you go on with intellectual, spiritual emotional curiosity and patience but it doesn't s*** me because the problem is it's not just me, you're s*** fine, no impact on me and I know this is discussed a lot in the context of mental health and coaching and so on and so forth but I think it's a message that I constantly hear from young men especially but people in general you're lying to yourself you didn't enjoy it and now not only did you enjoy it you're now told a mistruth about something you enjoy and

1:05:09John Reynolds:you've got to go to the next one yeah and you and yourself it prophesizes into a life you're living how many people are living a lie because they've gone down a route that's disingenuous to

1:05:19Rob Rinder:how they want to live right and it's so liberating isn't it yeah finally say But that didn't know what you are I'm really really f***ing Am I allowed to swear on this thing? Sorry Too late Oh too late Sorry I really really bloody hate it You know

1:05:33John Reynolds:You've been consistent with that You came out about your sexuality Really young When it's now completely Accepted and normal For people to do that Well let me tell you there

1:05:43Rob Rinder:It is accepted and normal If you live in London You have a loving family Not necessarily London If you live in an area With a gay life And in a country where there are no legal consequences and you feel as confident as you can that you have a family that are going to support you with unconditional love as I did, it's easier. That's interesting. For millions of people, and I mean millions of people, gay men and women, that's not their experience.

1:06:07John Reynolds:So it's still pretty risky and terrifying. Well, I think clearly the point I was making is you chose to. You could have chosen not to. So staying on that thought process of living a lie. You have met me. Hey. I mean, you have met me. I'd have persuaded them for too long. But it's that whole, I'm going to put this out there. I'm going to be honest. And then that way I can go down a route that allows me to be honest with myself, which manifests the things that you get to do, choose to do, and the people that come into your life, like Ryland, for example. You gravitated to this. You put out, use that kind of antennae word, you know, you put that out there that the magnetism attracts.

1:06:46John Reynolds:And I'm conscious of time. Oh, sorry. But I'd seen Bo enjoyed. No, it can be.

1:06:51Rob Rinder:I looked forward to the conversation and I feel like I've been, yesterday I was sort of talking at people and I find myself in these sort of conversations and actually what you want is somebody to be kind of pithy and short. And I find myself sort of, you know, worried and walking away to share some sort of slightly anxious that I've sat and lectured you for sort of. Not at all. Everybody's sitting there in a coma.

1:07:15John Reynolds:I wanted to learn from you. This is not about me, right? It's about you. I've learned so much from you. Well, I hope to learn from you as well. Well, let's 100 % stay in touch and let's do a round two because there's so many things I still haven't asked you. Excellent stuff. Have you enjoyed it? It's been lovely. It's been a bit like a sort of free therapy session. That's the best compliment you could pay me, Rob.

1:07:35Rob Rinder:She's really nice.

1:07:36John Reynolds:Well, thank you so much. It's been a delight. Thank you very much. Thank you.

1:07:49Rob Rinder:Rinse knows that greatness takes time, but so does laundry. So Rinse will take your laundry and hand deliver it to your door expertly cleaned. And you can take the time pursuing your passions. Time once spent sorting and waiting, folding and cueing, now spent challenging and innovating and pushing your way to greatness. So pick up the Irish flute or those calligraphy pens or that daunting Beef Wellington recipe card and leave the laundry to us. Rinse.

1:08:15John Reynolds:It's time to be great.