Ruby Wax | Episode 2 | Extraordinary Life Stories

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0:36A superhero remake, not exactly what we'd expect from an Oscar-winning director. Action! Simon Williams, audition for Wonder Man. I'm gonna need you to sign this, assuming you don't have superpowers. I'll never work again if anyone found out. My lips are sealed. Marvel Television's Wonder Man, all eight episodes now streaming, only on Disney+. What is it? What's wisdom? Some people say it's patience, somebody else will say it's money, somebody else will say, I think it's when the lens is wide open and anything is accepted. That would be wisdom. Welcome back. Yeah. I don't get to say that too often.

1:14We filmed just before you went into the jungle. Oh yeah, that's right. Yeah. I had to keep a secret. I'm not very good at keeping secrets. I thought I was out first because I can't do the manual stuff, but I can put anything in my mouth. Anything. I told him, just throw it in there. I used to say to Gint when are we live? And he said we're always live Your curiosity was piqued because you know you've got a degree from Oxford When I auditioned for Oxford I said it doesn't matter if you take me or not because I'm going to study this anyway and you know the way to get your way is to say I don't need you so they said come on in You know everybody's kind of dizzy from real life just the clanging and the I'm not good enough I think we're all good enough I have it I'm listening to you thinking I do that The comedy thing which gets in the way of it They think if it's a comedian, how does she know about mindfulness?

2:00But, you know, we reinvent in our lives, for God's sake. Give me a break. Are you an addict, do you think? Am I an addict? No, I just feel much better for it, and I give myself a really hard time if I don't do it.

2:23Welcome back. Yeah. I don't get to say that too often. Really? Yeah. Am I the only part two? I think you're... I've done one other person. Okay. But this is the most... That's the competitive in me. Yeah. Yeah. But I'm glad you came back. No, thank you. Lots happened since. So we filmed just before you went into the jungle. Oh, yeah, that's right. Yeah. I had to keep a secret. I'm not very good at keeping secrets. Oh, it was way before. Yeah. Yeah. We had a lovely dinner at yours. I told anybody anyway. You told me we had a dinner where some brilliant people come to your house that evening. And I told a few people, she won't tell anyone, and then you announced it to everyone there.

3:01I know. I don't know why you have to do that, these television things. It's a trust thing, though. I think the people that you trusted me, the people that came kept it still. Yeah, nobody said. And then genuinely thought you were going to win that. I did too. Yeah. No, I didn't really think. I thought I was out first because I can't do the manual stuff, but I can put anything in my mouth, anything. I told them, just throw it in there. So I was good at that. Yeah. But, you know, it's on. I used to say to Ginge, when are we live? And he said, we're always live. I didn't realize. I thought there's a moment where we're on.

3:37So I never a moment. Right. No, I didn't know that. But that's funny because that taps into what you used to do. You used to keep the cameras rolling. Never turn the camera off. And usually when we say it's the end, we're still rolling. And that's where people relax and become themselves. Yeah. But I didn't you know, the cameras are hidden. Mine are out there in the open. But you are, you know, we've been talking off camera before we film now. I've never seen the show, so I don't know. Oh, I know. I find that fascinating. I like that little small embryos like me. Tiny little unborn fetuses come and ask for my autograph.

4:09That's funny. Is that bad to say? Whole new audience. Whole new. And a whole new tribe. Literally the tribe that you're in. And, you know, these guys, sorry, Ginge, they've all become friends, right? Yeah. Well, because you bond when you're in dire straits. But I would have anyway, because they're underneath it. They're like great men. If the next generation is anything like that, I don't think they are. But these guys don't go off piece, whatever they're offered. You can't buy them. They love what they do. And they're doing it for their mothers to buy them a house. Yeah. Or that guy ages has a Down syndrome sister and just pushes her to the front.

4:49and she's totally confident. So they're great boys. That's cool. Yeah, I love them. And so the expectation for me when you went in, we didn't have that chat before. It was just like going in the jungle. But, you know, you thrive off connectivity. Yeah. You are tribal, you know. So watching it, I don't get to watch too much TV, but I made time and it was just like fresh on having got to know you and so on. And it was clear that the interaction and the vibration that you had with them was visible. Well, I made them sit every morning, and we'd have a check-in. So these boys didn't know what hit them.

5:26And so they did it even after I left. They would say, this is what's going on for me. And once you know that, you're not scared anymore. Because if somebody's going through something, you don't take it personally because we always think, what's wrong with me? Even though you're having a terrible day, you're projecting onto me your problems. So everybody would know where everybody was at. and so it became one. You know, it became a tribe. Yeah. Yeah. And were you shocked when you left? I was shocked because I didn't think I was going to be there that long. I mean, I wasn't that interested. I wasn't, I was only interested in them.

6:02So I don't know how that appeals. You know, a reality shows where they put cats among each other. Sure. So we had no victims. So I was just having a great time getting to know everybody and kind of plunging into their brains. Yes. And doing anything. Which you loved doing. Yeah, you had a captive audience, right? Yeah, but that wouldn't keep you in. You have to do those chores. And they kept eliminating me because I had knee surgery. So they kept saying, she's not doing it today. So I wasn't on the competitive line at all. Interesting. So I actually had nothing to do with what you were doing. Probably more of a fear element to the guys behind you.

6:34They were scared, but I'd sue them. And I wouldn't have. I don't care. You know, I have very little fear. It could be my medication, but I have very little fear. We need to go there. Okay. So you put anything in your mouth. And I know you're having fun with that, but it was so clear that if they put anything clear that I would not eat and most people wouldn't, you'd be like, bring it on. I want to bring mindfulness into this. Right. And snakes didn't bother me because you kind of, I would, I, because I do meditate or I do mindfulness, you can kind of observe the situation rather than be in the situation.

7:05So the guy even came out, he said, don't handle the snakes that badly. There was just no fear. I had to count them. And people were going, what are you doing with them? There's part of me that lays back a little bit. Nothing's fearful. I mean, if I was drowning, I'd probably run, you know, I'd try to swim. But that's an actual, that would be a physical reaction. Yeah. You're controlling this. A ruby of 30 years ago. Couldn't have done that. Gotcha. Yeah. So that's massive progress. Because this is where I know that... Well, it's like you do 100 push-ups a day. I do 100, you know, I do my meditation.

7:39Which is effort. Well, it's your brain is getting buff. You know, there's areas in your brain. I do it because of the neuroscience, because that's what I studied. And so I know that when I'm doing certain things, and it's not just sitting there breathing with my eyes rolled back on a gluten-free cushion. It's because I'm exercising certain areas that give me more attention than the normal person. So I can focus easier. Not bully for me. I wasn't born like that. And I'm all over the place. But boy, can I focus. And when other people burn out like they did, I can stay up to 17 hours. But it's only because I, you know, it's like you can lift a grand piano.

8:14So this is mental fitness. It's mental fitness. So if I'm aspirationally wanting to get there, which I am, right? So I'll do my 100 press-ups in the morning. Yeah. And I'll train my body. And then I, if I want to now bring that mental fitness forward, talk me through that. Talk me through your journey. Because that, you know, the first time you go in the gym, it hurts. Yeah. Same thing with this brain. This is the Ironman of the brain. It hurts. But if it really hurts, it's like going to the gym after 90 you collapse walk away So I don't think meditation is for everybody. I think if it really is agony like yoga for me I'm competing with the 17 year old tying my legs over my head I can't do it because it makes me too aggressive.

8:56So walk away But but I lift weights too. I can do push-ups I bet you can. There's not a lot you can't do. Your energy levels are off the scale. No, no, I can't do a hundred but for a girl It's just been, joking, but it's become a default for me where they're easy to do. Right. I can just, if I want to keep fit and I want to have some kind of physical fitness, it's just a constant. So I can do them in my hotel room. I can do them when I'm out. Are you an addict, do you think? Am I an addict? No, I just feel much better for it and I give myself a really hard time if I don't do it. So I'll start the day with it because my day gets too busy if I don't.

9:31Right. How does that relate to you with the, where do you fit the mental fitness in? Because this is clearly a constant for you. Yeah. Well, if I can get up and do it, that's fine. But otherwise, in the back of an Uber or on a tube or, you know, I wrote a book about it. A Mindfulness Guide for the Frazzle. Just throw that in. But I wrote a book about it. And you can do a walking, sitting at the office, wherever you are. You're doing it. Your gym is going with you. So you're playing with certain parts of the brain. Sure. And you can do that anywhere. I mean, you can weight lift with your handbag.

10:04Yes. Why go to the gym? I used to do that. I take a heavy bag or in the supermarket you put a lot of frozen turkeys in the thing and you can get that stretch. Then I take them out again. I don't want a frozen turkey. Versatility. Yeah. Or in the elevator you put your foot on the rail and then you stretch. And then someone gets... And then the door is open. I don't care. The thing is I don't care. I don't have a sense of humiliation. Where's that? How do you... That's part... That's something you've trained yourself. That's genes. No, I think that's genes. I mean my parents were immigrants so you know they hopped on a an ocean liner out of Europe so they were clever as to how they scuttled so I have a scuttle thing too like I'll do anything for what I need to do.

10:45That's proper survival though isn't it? That's survival. Instinct yeah but now but what I like about the mindfulness I think well say like about it that feels like there was a need for you to learn that but also you you were your curiosity was piqued because you know you've got a a degree from Oxford it, you know. And that intellect side of you was probably not something that a lot of people knew about. Well, I didn't have it as a kid. No, but it would have been dormant because it wouldn't have been front facing. You were in survival mode as a kid. Yeah, that's true. You brought the humor through.

11:16That worked for you. Then you build a career on it. But actually, it feels like your favorite thing to talk about now, and rightly so, because it's been transformational for you and it's a priority for you. The neurons, who never knew that I'd know about neuroscience, but when I auditioned the actor, when I auditioned for Oxford, I said, it doesn't matter if you take me or not, because I'm going to study this anyway. And you know, the way to get your way is to say, I don't need you. So they said, come on in. Also, there's determination there, right? She's going to do this. You can feel that, right?

11:49Yeah. It was like I got in the Royal Shakespeare Company and I had absolutely no talent at all. And when I'd go on stage, you'd hear people going, is there somebody from Chicago in The Tempest? Because the accent was terrible. But, you know, I just thought, I'm going to be in this company, so forget about it. And luckily, Alan Rickman said, you can't act. You're terrible. And people would throw little notes on to me. I don't know if I said it before, saying, get another job. And he said, write scripts. So he trained me. So I found the right mentor. Yes, so true. I'm not pushing on the wrong door.

12:24No. I came to watch you at the Richmond Theatre on the beginning of your tour and I saw firsthand how much you love interacting with an audience. So the show was about you, rightly so, and it was going back to... Well, it was showing clips of my old shows. Yeah. But it was... My point being, it was about you, but you brought the audience in. I felt... I literally felt that in what was initially sort of conversations about the interviews you've done and some of the stories, when you flipped it to the audience. Yeah, I like that part. Yes, I could tell. But also, I feel like perhaps particularly the era you've come through, that a lot of people that have made success of their careers would want control of the questions so they'd be choreographed and I want to know the questions.

13:11I felt like you thrived off the fact that you don't know what's coming next. No, I like that. It's like batting a ball that keeps coming. But I want it coming back. You know, there's too much ego and narcissism in the first bit. I'm saying, look at this, look at this, like a little girl showing off, which I feel my career was. It was a small child going, look what I can do. It was show and tell. And then this became, I'm just using myself as a conduit for you to come at me. I want to know your story. I mean, it's much more interesting than mine. So my favorite bit is the second half. And everybody wants to talk.

13:46Everybody wants a conversation. They do. I could feel that. And it was so clear that the questions weren't pre-prepared and you didn't need any time at all to answer them. And I wonder whether that's something, because I know you want to take that further, you know, and also with Frazzled, you do it every, is it every week you do it? Every other week. Yeah. And you do that, I believe you started that in lockdown. No, I started it eight years ago. Eight years ago. Yeah, eight years ago. My bad. So I, because the way I was going with it is, I feel like that's as much for you as the people that you help, the people that's because you get that connection.

14:22And I hadn't realized how much of that was important to you when we first met. It was like, well, I'm always looking for my tribe because I came from immigrants and I didn't sit in America. So it's like I'm pulling my people from different sections and they come visit me. So somebody from L.A. came to York a few days ago. So they see me unfrazzled and I get to know them. But every time I get off, I'm sort of pissed off that I have to take time and do it, you know, because I've got other stuff. And every time I get off that frazzled meeting, I go, it's like going, I guess like going to church is that I feel I'm in a room where the, you know, the compassion flows at me and I send it back.

15:02And so you just see, you know, if they say you can't see love over a computer, you can see everything else. Come on. So you pass the hormones. That's great. So you're full of it, full of this love. You can feel that. A few people I've now spoken to who know you have said that, which is why I thought it started in lockdown, that they found you through Frazzled. And they benefited so much from that connection that was missing during that time. So that's why I was... Oh, let me just say if they want to get on, it's Frazzled.org. Frazzledcafe.org. Anyway, that's my plug for that. And then bringing that connection to a much more sort of higher frequency, if you like.

15:45Doing retreats now. Yeah. Tell me about that. Yeah, your face lit up then. Yeah. So I can imagine if I and other people were coming on a retreat with you, we're already looking forward to it. But I feel like you look forward to it just as much because you're going to have a deeper dive. You're going to have a chance to, you know, almost like the analogy of someone being a bud and you open up the petals. And I feel like you really enjoy that because that's you stimulating what you've learned and how you can actually help someone. Well, also the comedy thing, which gets in the way of it. They think if it's a comedian, how does she know about mindfulness?

16:14But, you know, we reinvent in our lives, for God's sake. Give me a break. So, I mean, I'm amusing, but I'm still telling them how to use their brains, and they never thought of it before. But they come in spin cycling. You know, everybody's kind of dizzy from real life, just the clanging and the I'm not good enough. I don't know if you meet that when you're meeting these great businessmen. with their... I think we've all got it. I have it. I'm listening to you thinking I do that. No, I think I'm doing it. Life's busy, right? I've got kids with GCSEs. I've got all sorts of stuff going on. Yeah.

16:45And we have that recording going on anyway, but I'm teaching them how to get distance from it. You need your thoughts because we're creatures that think, but some of the thoughts are just detritus and some of them are important. So in a way you become like the orchestra conductor to go, that's garbage, that's what I need. It's almost like I can hear the The faint whispers of, he's looking at me like, I don't know what I'm talking about, but they're kind of back there. It's their usual visitors. They're almost my friends. That's the background music. I can't help it and people can't help it because the culture is ill.

17:22You know, the culture, we caught a virus from it. If you don't think you're good enough or you think you're avoiding the news, you're getting it anyway. You know, those memes are everywhere. So, you know, our skin has got it. I mean, maybe if you're living off-grid somewhere, you're free, but somebody's going to call and say, guess what's happening in the world? Because we want to pass the poison. It's just another meeting at the watering hole. You know, if there's like a buffalo coming, everybody's going to scram. So we're all looking for fear and think it's helping the next guy if we tell him about it.

17:52It's poisoning them. But that's the way humans are. I mean, the first thing I say is we're flawed. It's the human condition. So we beat ourselves up even more for these things that are, it's our legacy. You know, part of us is, I was saying, still Stone Age. So we don't realize the wallpaper's changed and we react in a kind of a primitive way. So part of me wants to kill you. Me personally. Well, you know what I mean? When you tell me things that I envy, I want to take a claw and just swipe it. But you can feel that. And a lot of people who aren't aware of what's going on inside will swipe it.

18:27They'll do it, you know, passive aggressively because they don't know what's bubbling down there. Yeah. So what do you want to achieve out of getting people together on a retreat? Because everything you did, there was so much in what you just said there. So you're calming the noise, can't stop the news. It's coming at you, the way that we're all affected. So on the retreat. What can someone potentially walk away from a retreat with you and take away that it's completely different from when they came in? Well, I give them a tool. You know, there's so many lectures about compassion or self-awareness, whatever.

18:59And I always go, how? How do you do it? Especially in business, there'll be some PowerPoint guy clicking away. I once did a show where I pretended my clicker broke. So I kept pointing with a laser to a wall and saying, this is what you would have seen. I mean, it was for comedy. It's called How to Be Human. Yeah. But get rid of the PowerPoint and teach them a tool. So when they leave, they've got something under their arm. I teach them what that mental push-up is. And they can either do it or not do it. But I say, you've got to do something. You have to get your focus below the neck, into your body.

19:34Once you can follow your breath or listen to sound or taste something or feel interception, once that's there, the thoughts automatically get quieter. They don't go away. But you can either have this part called the insula, which is feeling in the body, or the gabbling fight and flight. You can't have them both on at once. So either you're talking, you know, a million miles an hour up here, but the minute you, let's say, focus on intentionally on, let's say, sound. That's the mindfulness piece, isn't it? Everything's gone to the sound. Sound, right? If you're in a sense, you can't think at the same time.

20:11But then the thoughts come, you bring them back to the sound. The thoughts come, you need them. It's the barbell. You need that exercise just for a few minutes a day. You're not in the gym all day. You listen to the sound or the breathing, watch where the thoughts go because they got to take over. But instead of letting them ruminate, which they usually do and keep you up all night, you just bring it back to the breath. And every time you do that sit up or whatever you want to call it, the barbell, you're building the insula so that when the shit hits the fan and you're shouting at me, you know, people say, oh, I jog or I play golf.

20:45Well, what are you going to get out the golf clubs when you're shouting at me? So I can sit there and I can go back to inside my body and the shit will hit you right back because I'm not locking antlers. I mean, that's why Arabs use those beads or, you know, because part of your attention is going to something physical. So the cortisol lowers. As soon as you're touching or you're in your body or you're feeling the ground or an athlete is inside of their bodies, the cortisol comes down. If you know the mechanics of the brain, it really helps you understand how to run the mothership. There's the science behind it because emotions, we all have them, right?

21:23And they lead to our thoughts. And I love the saying, water the flowers, not the weeds. And I have to consciously remind myself of that with the things that are in my life daily. Some people can do it, but other people can't get control of their attention. That's why the world now has ADHD. They don't have ADHD. The culture is confusing them. There's weapons of mass distraction everywhere. Engineers know that and advertisers know that. So we're split. Like, where do you look first? Because there's so much eye candy. So at least with mindfulness, this exercise, just, you know, and the more, the wilder the thoughts are, the harder the barbell is.

22:02And you bring it back to a physical sensation. So when I'm on stage and I'm losing my lines because I'm scared, the audience smell my fear. And you can see them. They're starting to get angry because they don't like catching fear. so then because I'm used to it, if I send my focus to my bum on the chair and my feet on the ground, it sounds so simple, I can lower my cortisol in front of them and then they start laughing again. Just because I'm used to it, not because I was born with it. You can't go to your breath because you're still talking. You can't go to sound because you're talking, but you sure can feel your body and you go back in it and you're lowering your cortisol on purpose.

22:42And we work like neural Wi-Fi so they catch it too. If I'm cool in your core. If I'm aggressive then you're going to catch it and businesses should know that is that if you come in with anger people are going to catch it even if you're hiding it they're going to feel it. So better I feel it. You're passing it on. You're passing it. Yeah and if you're reciprocal to it you're going to absorb it whereas if you've learned to effectively have the barrier it just bounces off. I just can feel it. I can feel the you know, anger, which gives me a pause. I send instead of my attention to you, I send it to where is that pain?

23:16Where's that stabbing in my stomach? And just by noticing it, because I'm not repressing it, I'm noticing where it is. It starts to disperse. That's how mindfulness started with physical pain. If you send your focus to the area, you realize not your whole body's infected. And that keeps moving. There's no solid pain. You still have it, but it moves around. So my professor at Oxford did it with emotional pain. So you go to the spot where your heart is broken, whatever, the language will stop. And then you just feel the sensation. Sensation can't make you ruminate. It's just a sensation. So heartache or heartburn are actually registered in the same part of your brain.