Toby Gad | Extraordinary Life Stories

0:13Toby, thank you for joining me. Thank you so much for having me. It's an honor. Yeah, I've been looking forward to this. Yeah, me too. Tell me, who is Toby Gadd? Toby Gadd is this little kid who grew up in a little farm village somewhere in Germany, near a river, and with parents that made jazz music, Dixieland jazz, and I always dreamt of making music too. It's beautiful. What a beautiful place to grow up. Do you think that whole surroundings stimulated the creativity you've clearly got? I was always on the bicycle. I loved the bicycle and the forest. and music yes I love nature very much so you were always destined to go into music and I know you are you're a musician you're a songwriter singer yourself did you not a singer not a singer not a singer no in my dreams I am interesting so you live that through the songwriting I mean my point is you're just consumed by music but you chose your lane very much as the songwriting I got to work with talent that sings so well that I could never say I'm a singer fair play but being able to write songs that you then have been able to work with the most incredible amount of people, household names, when did that start to become a reality?

1:20So the boy that was probably dreaming and writing and so on and playing music to then actually making a career out of it, when did that become a reality? Age 18, we had the chance to land three songs on the Milli Vanilli album, which was a notorious album because they didn't sing and had to return the Grammy, but we didn't know that at the time. We were just happy to have our songs on an album that was a big number one record. And at that time we realized, wow, you can make money with music and you can write something and then you hear it on the radio everywhere in the world. That experience alone was so incredible.

1:56So that was an early milestone that allowed you to then know, I can do more of this, I can flourish. That's addicting. I want more of this, yes. Yeah, and making money out of songwriting. Often it's the artists themselves. It seems like you've made a really good career out of songwriting. Is that realistic for anyone aspirational and watching you, wanting to be like you? Can you make a really good living out of writing songs? These are very different times now than they were when I started out. A lot has changed since. I do believe if you write great songs and these songs resonate with an audience, yes, you can make money with it and you can live well from it.

2:35When you say changing times, would you say for the better or for the worse in context of now what AI is coming into it? For the better of the artist, for the better of the individual, because we all have all the tools we want to release songs and to gather our own community and audience. So you have more control? Yes, you have all the control in the world. Back in the day, the record labels were the curators. They were between you and the fans. I get that. Whereas now, social media and personal brand and being able to actually put yourself out there, you can then almost like direct to consumer marketing, if you like, you can then bring that back.

3:12I mentioned AI there. Where does AI fit in with your skill set where you create something now in the capacity that you do and then you could almost refine it or make it better with AI? I had a conversation with a friend about it. yesterday in length and came to the conclusion that what I welcome is authentic AI and I define authentic AI as the AI that does not try to look like us, does not try to do what we do, does not try to compete with us or outdo us, but AI that helps us lead a better life, smarter computers, simplify life, make us happier. That's the AI I like. It needs to be authentic. The moment it tries to look like us, the moment it tries to emulate us, it's not authentic.

3:58It shouldn't walk, it shouldn't have a face that we have. That's the AI I reject. I like that. And professionally using it, is there now AI tools, someone looking at you, again aspiring to want to be able to write songs, is there software now, if you like, AI that you can plug in and is benefiting in the way you want it to? I've played with some of that and it's more for the consumer. Like anyone can write a song now and type in a prompt and you get a song. And those songs are going to be better and better. And very soon these are going to be songs that AI knows what you love, what you react, because it knows all your data.

4:34It knows everything about you. So it knows you react to this melody, to this lyric, to this transition. And it writes you songs that are perfect. They will be perfect in a couple of years. And we will, I don't know if we compete with it, but what gets more and more important these days is a direct human connection to your community, one-on-one, seeing people, talking to people, going to a concert where your artist sings to you, small concerts where it's like a living room concert, and you're one-on-one. That's something AI will never do, and that's getting very important. I think back in the day it was the glossy that we liked, the perfect.

5:12Now people have an aversion to perfection because we think it's AI, and we look for the human, for the imperfect, for the raw, give me the real. An interesting question for you. So you probably can spot a song that's very much heavily, right now with AI at the stage it's at, you can spot it's being used. I cannot. Oh, can you not? No. It's that sophisticated. It's very good already. And in a few years, it's going to be incredible. Okay. And everyone in their phone is going to say, write me a song today about this, and it's going to be incredible, and you're going to love it. Maybe your entire playlist will be something that AI has written for you.

5:48Wow. I was wondering whether it was still at that stage where you can go, that's AI, but the consumer, us, can't tell the part. And then I was wondering when that would catch up and you've already highlighted. No, the consumer would use that to make their own songs that are tailor-made and maybe movies one day too. I don't think we're there yet. So where does that leave the next generation of Toby Gads coming through that want to be a songwriter? But actually, has that creativity been removed because of it? I think it will tilt it more towards the raw, the authentic, the real emotions, issues that matter on a human scale.

6:26As far as the generic entertainment, AI can totally replace that. That's easy. But the real suffering, the real human experience, we will look for that from people. We don't want computers that look like people to fool us into believing. Emotions, right? Yes. We had that whole conversation as we sit down and you have your own podcast. And having that eye contact, having the body language. Yes. That's what comes through in music, right? We have so many more senses. And those senses, they all want to be stimulated. Some senses we're not even aware of. If there are people in a room, we feel each other on so many levels.

7:04With no words. Yes. We look at each other. Our eyes talk. All of that isn't there with AI. We'll never be, probably. That's comforting to know. Because I think there's something... I've always loved music. I've brought up listening to music forever and I'm 47, so my interest in music is sort of multifaceted. But it is emotive. Whatever I'm listening to, it's making you feel a certain way. All about the feeling. It's probably nothing but a feeling. You could have an orchestra of 100 people put$10 million into this record. If you don't feel anything, it's worthless. Yeah, on the flip side if someone walks down the street and sings a song it could make you cry and it's valuable And you want to hear it again and it brings you back to your childhood and you want to share it.

7:50Yes virality Yes Which comes into storytelling as well I see that emotive to them how many people have got stories about songs you've written You've got stories about songs you've listened to at certain times That's where it gets even more interesting because a song like Big Girls Don't Cry is a very authentic moment of Fergie's life when she just came out of a rehabilitation clinic and needed to find clarity in her life and broke up with someone she loved, a long distance boyfriend. And when we wrote the song, we were in tears. And it was just such an intense moment. And I feel the song gives people that feeling.

8:24But now I re-recorded 16 of my greatest songs with 17 new artists. And a lot of these artists, I realized, these are people who grew up with listening to these songs but have their own journey and their own emotions and their own moments of when they heard Big Girl's Song Cry and when it meant something to them. And so this journey now connects with a new journey and comes full circle. And I love it. That's brilliant. Yeah, I can tell you're glowing with passion for that. Using that example with Fergie, that's a really personal song to her and you're writing it with her. So that's her lived experience that's her outpouring of emotion I'm the therapist she's there interesting yeah that's what I said so it's almost like a carefully managed relationship where you want the song to be successful yes but at the same time she might be trying to put in things that matter or mean something to her but they don't quite work how how does that come together how much guidance is there from you it's a skill right you know someone's trying to outpour you're trying to manage it's like therapy I wrote a song recently with James Arthur and it was just we were both bawling.

9:29It was so brutal. So you are fully immersed. Fully immersed, yes. I've had my own traumas and sometimes those intersect. And how long could that take? So James Arthur, was that a week? Was that a month? And were you walking and talking in the woods? You know what I mean? Where's the creativity flowing from? You were in a studio like this and you're just kind of scribbling things down and so on. What's the process? Well, he came in the studio and I asked how he grew up. And he said at some point child services came and took him. And his mom said, yeah, they're taking you now. And he grew up in foster care.

10:05And I thought, wow, this is unbelievable. My mom left when I was seven years old. And as a kid, as a boy, you want a mom to cuddle, to hold you, to just give you safety and warmth. And if that's missing, it's traumatic. I guess until I was 30 years old, that affected me very much. My girlfriends were always a lot older than me. I was looking for that in a relationship then. The mother anxiety. To compensate, yes. So we could totally relate on that. You mentioned therapy then. So that connection you can have with so many of these people that are super creative as well. That's probably almost been good for your mental health, if you like.

10:43Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. And friends for life. I have a free therapy session too. They're paying you ultimately sort of thing to... I feel like fully cured. Wow. I don't know. No, no, I get it. But it's more than just songwriting is what I'm saying. It's very intimate, intense, just all guardrails off. And those make the best songs when you're just 100 % real. Where are you most creative? So I use that example of the studio or walking, talking. But if you are wanting to write your own song and you've got, let's just say you've got to write it by the end of April, we're the beginning of April now.

11:22Yeah, it's never worked for me. It's always the moment I'm with a new artist. And sometimes I prepare for these moments, but sometimes it's something you can't prepare for. And a person walks in and A, you're starstruck because they are John Legend or somebody who is incredible. were. And then we just start talking and somehow there's this energy and this electricity and this wow and something happens. A song comes just about there, something we talk about that feels urgent. It feels like the idea of the moment. You know when you hear a song and the next day you remember something from that song, that takeaway, this is what I want to find before I start writing a song.

12:04So in conversations I look for that and once it's there then I get to the piano, I improvise a little, maybe hum some stupid melodies, and then the artist might improvise. And suddenly a chorus comes about. And then once we have a chorus we love, we add the verses, and here it is. My brain is spinning with the amount of people I know you've worked with. And I've listened and watched quite a lot of stuff before we sit down today. So I heard you say that, for example, working with Madonna, she wasn't particularly nice to you. And now I'm sitting with you. I can imagine that that connection is lost.

12:36no matter how starstruck you might be from a name like that. Madonna was very nice to me, but the first week she was very intimidating. The first riding camp she didn't show up. Second riding camp she did show up and we had some ideas. And before she comes in the room, the assistants light the candles and make sure the bathroom is off limits for you now. And then she comes in and it's this royal moment and everyone's nervous because she's a legend. I mean, she's been on top of the world for decades, I have so much respect for her. So yeah, luckily we had an idea she liked and then maybe we finished the song the next day, finished another song.

13:14Third day came to recording her vocal and that's where it got really difficult because I mean she's one of the best performers in the world but for vocally's, for the vocals I thought maybe I could get a better vocal out of her and I pushed her a little bit. There was a rumor... That's through your passion though, right? That goes back to wanting to be the best it can be. There was a rumor going around that if you say something wrong to Madonna, then she will go to the bathroom and her assistant will hand you the ticket and say you've got five minutes to leave and clear the room. And when she comes back, she does not want to see you anymore.

13:47So I was at the mixing desk. She was in the vocal booth and I was recording her. And she's like, sing it again like I usually do. And now put some emotion into it. Sing it again to someone you love. You can express yourself with this. She was like, ****, Toby, I'm not singing this again. And intuitively, I was like, f*** you, Madonna, you're going to sing this again. And then there was silence in the room. And then she started laughing. We started bonding over it. And I ended up spending five weeks with her. And she was like, wow, this guy really cares about finishing songs the right way and getting the best out of me.

14:25And that changed everything. From that point on, it was like family. And we're just working hard. I love that. She's a hard worker. She'd have known you were coming from a place of passion, where people have probably been asked to leave. It's not in her best interest. You were actually trying to push her to make the best record. Have you ever had a scenario where you've written a song and you are so excited about it, so pleased with what you've done, and it hasn't actually gone that well? So many times. Yeah. I mean, for each of these, I don't know, 500 songs that have been released and maybe 20 that I'm known for, there's been, I mean, there's thousands of songs I've written.

15:04And a lot of them I love and a lot of them I'm attached to. And a lot of them have famous singers attached. So that's one of the reasons also why I started this project, Piano Diaries. And we started Piano Diaries with re-recording my greatest hits, 16 of my songs that I'm known for, with 17 young new singers. But moving forward, I'm going to release original songs with piano diaries. And one of them is going to be with Donna Summer, a song I wrote before she died with her. That's very dear to me. And that's going to be a new platform for me to release songs that are meaningful to me with just piano, vocal and orchestration.

15:48That's cool. With John Legend, all of me. Yes. Did you know that was something special? No. Interesting. So there's songs you've written that you thought would go really well and then they haven't. And then there's, dare I say, not all of me, but there's songs that you just didn't expect them to... So actually there's an element of, not lottery, but you put the best you can into the song you're doing at the time with the artist. Yeah. And if I were a boy, I had the feeling while writing that this was going to be a big, big song. On Big O's Song Cry, I didn't know. It felt good. It felt urgent and it felt really emotional.

16:24Like it would make you cry if you really listen to it. All of me, we were just pouring our hearts out. John came in the room and said, I want to write a song for Chrissy. I love her very much. And he went to the piano and said, I already have something. I have all of me loves all of you. And that's all I have. I don't know what else to do. And then I sat at the piano and said, maybe I thought of my wife, who I love very much, and I thought of her curves, her edges, her imperfections. Love your curves and all your edges, all your perfect imperfections. And then he's like, great, let me get back to the piano.

17:00And he continued his ideas and went back and forth. And very quickly, we had written this song. It was one of those moments where it just flows. That's brilliant. Have you ever had a scenario where you've either been approached by someone or you've wanted to work with someone, and then for whatever reason, you talk about that connection, I can tell you are, that is so important. to you and it's just not been there you've almost had to agree to to disagree or just not chosen to work together hmm yeah there's been many many of those there was a time when I was the number three songwriter in the world according to billboard and saw that all the record companies sent me their new signings and also celebrities and I mean there was a moment when when Jamie Foxx said I want to write with you on that day and that was a day I had a John Legend session and And I had to say no to Jamie Foxx.

17:49I said, can we do it next week? And no. I had a week with Adele in the book once. That week got moved. It got moved. Eventually, it got forgotten. Interesting. Is there someone you would have loved to have worked with? Coldplay. I would love to work with Chris Martin. I mean, such a fan of his music. It's so good. Yeah. Consistently. Do you know them? No. It's consistently great. How do you look after yourself kind of physically and mentally? So a lot of what you write songs about are emotive and about, you know, showing those emotions. What does Toby do to kind of keep both mentally and physically fit?

18:25I surf. I love the Pacific Ocean. I catch waves on a stand-up paddleboard like Larry Hamilton does. Brilliant. I used to love surfing, by the way. Oh, you know, we should go surfing together. Recently, I learned kite surfing, which is so amazing. You can do it all around England. Yeah. You know, when you have the kite up there with the wind and you're racing over the water and sometimes you can jump. It's just endless goosebumps. It's such a great feeling. And then you're buzzing for days because or catching a wave. It's so unproductive, but it's so fulfilling. Serious workout. You do a lot of windsurfing.

19:01Yes. And surfing. So, I mean, that was a proper workout, you know. And that's also good for your mental fitness. So you need clarity. You need to be fully present to be creative. So do you ever have a scenario where you're kite surfing? I get this when I'm swimming sometimes, and I get an idea. I get something that I couldn't work out in the office, if you like. Yes, yes, that's a great place, yeah. But I can't write it down. I can't. Do you ever have that? You get a line or something, and then you've got to remember it. Yes. I find that, and I forget about it half the time by the time I'm back.

19:35But yeah, I just want to get where you get your inspiration. Paul McCartney said when he was writing with John Lennon in the Beatles era, they couldn't record their ideas. They didn't have dictaphone, so they had to write something that they would still remember the next day, which really challenged them to write something that was so memorable and so urgent. And maybe that's why their songs are so good and still so incredible today. Yes. A key thing that I thought was really, really sort of relevant to this conversation is you have stayed relevant. You've got songs that date years and then you're still doing stuff right now and you're doing the podcast You talked about Jesse Day last week and I think you filmed seven podcasts in the last week Yes Where's all this energy coming from and how are you staying relevant because music has changed?

20:20No, I took a few years off. There was the year 2015 I was five weeks in the studio with Madonna I was flying first class to London to finish Leon Lewis's entire album and all of me was number one and I looked at my calendar and it was full with sessions, session after session after session and I thought I had climbed the Mount Everest of the music world three times now and it like with Big Girls Don't Cry and If I Were a Boy and all of me and why am I still doing this? What am I chasing? And it's those crossroads where someone like Dr. Luke then got a hundred million dollar deal and here's your massive label, here's your publishing company, now employ hundreds of people and sign everybody there to sign suddenly you're a ceo you're someone who doesn't make music anymore and i was thinking get caught up in the business side of things thinking who am i what am i doing and i wanted to be this kid again on the bicycle just being free carefree learning how to surf was a big one for me and uh told the world i'm not writing songs anymore that was very healthy and took care of my two daughters and my wife more and um just became a human being again that was really important and when did you feel you were ready to come back in then i was a judge on german idol and idol is still a big deal in germany and i loved it i was celebrated um and i found that a lot of the contestants sang my old songs with passion and said oh i grew up with this song i'm so happy i can sing it for you now wanted to know the stories behind the songs and that was the catalyst for why we started Piano Diaries and passing the torch now to the new generation of singers with my old songs.

22:02It feels great and in the process I've become an artist and I'm performing those songs and telling the stories. It's so much fun. Absolutely. And you must have a huge bank of people that want to film with you and that you want to film with. So that's kind of like a legacy thing. You can do it forever. I love that. It's so gratifying. Someone like Louisa Johnson coming on stage with me and performing. And a lot of amazing artists who are on this album that are just released now, Piano Diaries. So who have you got coming up and who would you really love to have on your podcast? On my podcast? Yeah.

22:37Oh, there are so many. It's a whole list. I bet. I mean, there's a lot of people I know, like Dave Grawl. I've known for a long time because our kids went to the same school. but I'm not asking him until maybe in half a year I will ask him. Why? Why are you delaying? It's still building the podcast. We're four months in. We're now at, I don't know, 20 million impressions. It's starting to do really well but for him or for Kiss and other people or some of these really big legends, maybe in half a year I will approach them. Fair play. I'm so excited. I can tell you're enjoying it. I can't wait and I'm learning as we go and I'm getting better with interviewing and letting people finish their sentences.

23:14You're very relaxing to talk with. I think bringing in that surfing and that element, you're very comfortable with who you are, what you've done, and what you want to do, which is... You are too. I think that comes from the age. I agree. I think that's why... Yes, it does come. 30th birthday, I started being comfortable in my skin. 40th, I felt I had figured life out. 50th birthday, wow, the world is my playground. I love it. Yeah, and there's certain things you've achieved that have allowed you to perhaps not be so, I don't want to say aggressive, because I can't imagine, but determined and driven.

23:48But now it's more of a pleasure doing what you're doing. I love it, yes. You will be an inspiration for a lot of aspirational songwriters. Thank you. What advice would you give to someone with the environment as it is now? And that could be someone having a pivot in life, someone that's always had a passion for it, but has locked it up, hasn't made time for it. Or they could be a youngster that wants to come into that as a career. Yeah. What advice would you give them? Be authentic. Don't copy. Try to find out why you are making music and express that in your music. The love you feel for the music.

24:22Or if it gives you a release, an emotional release, if it makes you want to scream and you want to do punk rock, do that. Like, just be authentic to yourself. Be your true self. Because there are so many copies around and everything exists already but you. So whatever you have to offer, make that your music. And you have a favorite genre. So you've been really quite diverse. But if you were going to pick an absolute favorite type of song that you write, what is that? What does it look like? At the moment, and it's strange, now listening to 16 Piano Diaries songs back to back, I feel this is really me.

25:01I love the piano. I love the storytelling. I love, love, love great voices. I love singers that have a recognizable voice and have emotion in their voice. I just feel so much for that. So Piano Diaries, that's very simplified piano. I have a Bursendorfer piano that we spend a lot of time with to give it a lot of sustain and dynamic and emotion. I play very minimalist on it. Pop songs, I still like pop songs. and with a vocalist that I love and little string arrangement around it towards the end, the orchestration with real strings. That's the concept. And I feel that's probably the essence of me.

25:42I still like dance as well. Yeah, of course. I get that. So do I. I've got an interesting question for you, and that's probably something that we can end on. Mental health. Yes. Man-to-man talking. Yes. Wouldn't have done it in a way of being vulnerable to be strong probably 15, 20 years ago. Yes. But that's always been conveyed through songs. So it's an outpouring, but not necessarily a conversation. How important do you think a number of songs and songwriting continues to be to show emotions when people haven't necessarily had a conversation and shared it in that chapter? So important. Put it into a song.

26:18And then I know that so many of the songs you've written and that we all enjoy come from heartache, from broken hearts, from trauma, tragedy. but we wouldn't have the music and the songs if it hadn't happened. There's an irony there. It's important to know you're not alone. Your struggle, other people may have a similar struggle and sometimes a song about struggle can, like Skyscraper that I did with Demi Lovato, is a song about overcoming struggle and she's still struggling and it has helped so many people with mental health problems or Who You Are, a song I wrote with Jessie J is a song that is empowering and uplifting in a way of be true to who you are and look yourself in the mirror and and love yourself and don't compare yourself with everyone else out there being authentic to yourself but also loneliness is a big one so look for communities go out talk to people find events so far is doing amazing events in london where you can just show up and it feels like a living room of like-minded people and like a tribe yes like a tribe love that find your tribe and not on the internet find them in real life go out connect talk to strangers is a big one speak to at least one stranger a day someone you don't know say you look great hi how are you did you have a good day start a conversation it feels great i love it there's so much in what you just said that resonates and we didn't know each other before today and I feel like you're in my tribe now.

27:54It's just like it's a pleasure to know you. I wish we had longer but I'd love to very much stay in touch and thank you. I would love that. Toby, thank you so much. Thank you so much.