Alan Permane: Lawson, Lindblad + leading Racing Bulls

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2:38Albert Lindblad scores points as an 18-year-old on debut. He's really pushy. Is he? Do you know what? But that's great. Liam Lawson brutally demoted back to racing pools What kind of a man walked through the door at Suzuka last year, right? His head was down and he won't thank me for saying this We obviously knew him from the year before We could tell that he certainly wasn't the same guy Lawson will get his best ever Formula 1 result in fifth I don't want to say we rebuilt him because that's a little bit dramatic We're there to help him, but he made a turnaround Hello and welcome to F1 Beyond the Grid with me, Tom Clarkson, and Racing Bulls team principal, Alan Perme.

3:25I've known Alan for many years and I followed his career closely through both the highs and the lows. He tells me in this chat he was devastated when he left Alpine in mid-2023. He'd worked at Team Endstone for more than 30 years, winning multiple world championships with Michael Schumacher and Fernando Alonso. But he also calls it a defining moment in his career, one that led him to becoming a team principal for the first time. A year on since taking that job, Alan explains why the role wasn't a natural fit for him initially, the challenges he's faced and the changes he's made. And he gives great insight into Liam Lawson and Arvid Lindblad and how he manages their wheel-to-wheel racing on track.

4:12And he describes the unique way they decided which driver would receive all of the team's latest big upgrade first. Alan's in great form and gives fascinating insight into life at Racing Bulls. Plus, keep listening for your chance to win tickets to this year's Spanish Grand Prix in Madrid.

4:38Great to see you. It's been six years. since you were last on the show. I think it was in COVID times, wasn't it? Yeah, it was. We did something in Istanbul, I seem to vaguely remember, and chatting for two or three hours. And we could have gone longer. Yes, it was good fun. Good fun. Well, it's great to have you back on the show. Thank you, Beau. And we're speaking at Spa-Francorchamps, 12 months on from your first race as TP of RB. I just wanted to start by asking you how you reflect on the last 12 months. So it was a big step. and I think I've said before, I've certainly said to you, it's not something I'd imagined doing, it's not something I'd had ambitions to do, but it's something I'm loving, honestly.

5:21I'm thoroughly enjoying it. There's bits of it that I enjoy more than other bits of it, but I'm also very conscious of the fact that there's 11 team principals and it's a privilege, it's an honour and I need to try and enjoy it as well. You know, even when the bits that are not quite so much fun, let's say, I'm trying to make the most of that as well. You say you weren't expecting it. Can you just take us back to the moment in terms of how was the job offered to you? It wasn't so much offered as we need you to do this. You are doing this, Alan. It wasn't quite like that either, but we need your help.

6:04This has happened. Laurent is moving up to Ribble Racing, and we'd like you to step up to this. And I must admit, and I think I've told this story, I've certainly said it to others, it wouldn't have been my first choice of things. Why? Why? Because you know me, I'm not one for the limelight. I absolutely shy away from it in my previous roles as much as possible. And certainly that's one aspect of this job that's been the most, maybe not the most challenging, but it's been challenging, is stuff like this, doing press conferences, talking a lot with media, talking a lot with sponsors. And not to play it down, I don't want to say that's not difficult, but it's not something that comes naturally.

6:48And it's something that I put a lot of effort into. I feel I have to prepare well, just make sure I'm on top of things like that. You know, standing up in front of 800 people who work for us to talk to them, that's something that a year ago put the absolute fear of God into me. And now? Well, everyone said, and I was quite open with it when I got the job, I said that scares the life out of me. And people said, ah, you'll come to love it. And I don't say I love it, but also it certainly doesn't. And it's not something that consumes, you know, a week before and doesn't consume my every thought anymore.

7:26And I like to think I'm doing a decent job of it. At the end of the day, I'm trying to give people what they want to hear. I don't want anyone to come to a meeting of, you know, of everyone, all our staff and feel that, oh, my God, we've got to go and listen to him again. I want to try and impart some knowledge maybe from the track, what we've done, a little bit more of an insight or what's coming in the future and people to want to come to that because otherwise what's the point? Now you've done so many senior roles in Formula One. Just what extra pressures are on you now that weren't on you before?

8:04I think the financial side of it is much more you playing with. I try to see this as an extension of what I've done before. So most of my career has been about finding performance. So whether you're a race engineer or a chief race engineer or even sporting director, which is the big roles I've done. In those roles, you've got, let's say, some aerodynamics or you've got some suspension set up. But you're always trying to find performance and trade-offs and things like that. And trying to use that experience in this team principal role to do the same. It's about finding performance. And again, it's a very simple thing to say.

8:40we only really care about two things we care about going fast and we care about not stopping so performance and reliability and those two are intrinsically linked as well without reliability you can't have performance so i'm now using some different building blocks instead of roll bars and front wing angles it's people and money if you like and and making sure that we're spending what we have wisely in in the right areas and making sure people have firstly that they're happy in their roles and we have a nice working environment, but also they've got what they need to do the job that they want to do.

9:17I'm not going to go and tell the head of aerodynamics how to do his job, but I just need to be there to support him and make sure that he's got everything he needs to do his role. And that's how I see it. And I'm guessing as well as all of that, you're getting insight into bigger picture Formula One as well in the role as TP. How has the job changed your perspective on on formula one as a whole that's an interesting question i i'm not sure it has yes i now go to an f1 commission meeting which is all the other team principals but i've sat in the and that's a that's a very grown-up version of a of the sporting committee that i sat on for many many years um so it's a it's a it's of course at a much higher level and and at the moment i'm very much a listening listening stage rather than jumping in with with with what you know me campaigning for the way that formal i think formal one should be whereas i guess when i was in that sporting i was far more vocal and trying to drive that sporting group um being one of the more senior members in it let's say and now i'm certainly one of the junior members in the in the f1 commission group so i'm much more in a listening to 90 of it and maybe talking 10 instead of the other way around take us into one of those commission meetings right which of your peers impresses you?

10:33Ah, that, come on TC, I can't, that's not fair. They're all impressive in some ways or another, you know. When you look at the big guys, the Totos, Freds, Flavios, those are the guys who are driving that sort of thing and they're the guys with the biggest investment, you know, with big teams and engine suppliers, but of course Laurent as well, and they're all in their way. everyone, of course, everyone brings something to that group and there's something to learn from everyone. Alan, you've got 30 years plus in Formula One behind you, right? Is there any advice you'd give your younger self knowing where your career is now or has it all been useful?

11:15Yeah, my career has all been useful to come into this point. As we said before, I didn't know it was coming to this point. And there's things I would have done differently in the past, I think. but to change anything no I don't look back any of it and think oh I'd have done you shouldn't do that or you shouldn't do this I mean I've ended up as team principal it's got it's gone pretty well it's gone better than I could have I could have imagined maybe there's little specific things I would have done differently but as a trajectory it's uh it's very nice I have to say that and I'm sure you want to touch on it the the leaving Alpine and going to to race or not really leaving Alpine but moving on from Alpine shall we say and going to racing balls was a was a defining moment of course and without that I probably wouldn't be where I am now Alan let's talk about that because that was another spa moment for you as well your last race for Alpine 2023 right here I remember being shocked known you for years um how tough was it for you very why so because that was my life you know okay I've got of course I've got more life than that I've got a life away from the away from the track but I'd been at Alpine for 34 years you know I started there when I was just I'd just turned 22 I'd done an apprenticeship and that was my job after I finished my apprenticeship I went I went to work there I went to work at Benetton and the team went from Benetton to Renault to Lotus to Renault to Alpine and I'd been there and it completely came out of the blue um so yeah I was I was devastated really and it was it was hard it was a hard certainly it was it was a it certainly he spoiled the summer break that year that's for sure did you think about just walking away from Formula One completely and getting involved in another arena no honestly I was very fortunate um my phone rang that day a couple of times you know people saying what the hell's going on and let's have a chat and let's have a catch up and um Christian Horner was very gracious uh I think in the press conference at Spa he spoke very nicely about me which was which was nice and he then came and spoke to me on the grid and said, give me a call.

13:21When all the dust has settled, give me a call. So Christian was pivotal in you coming to... I don't know, because I also spoke with Laurent, who had also been confirmed as team principal for AlphaTauri, as it was at the time. But I spoke to a few other places and I was very fortunate to have some options. So no, I didn't ever consider anything outside of Formula 1. I don't think I could do anything outside of Formula 1. I don't know. And I don't think I would want to either. I love what I do. I really enjoy being in this environment and the competitiveness of it. I absolutely love. But you did have a bit of time out.

14:00Any new hobbies in that time? No, I remember my wife saying to me, what are you going to do with yourself? She was working. We were in the UK. And I remember it was the, I think it was the very first day of the Cricket World Cup. and I said, look at the TV, this is day one of 45, so I'm good for the next 45 days. She said, you cannot sit and watch cricket for 45 days. I think I did a little bit. I said, look, I need to just do nothing for a little bit and reset. As I say, we had a bit of a miserable summer holiday that year and bless her, she's been great. She's a massive support. So without her just doing the team principal role as well, she's there behind me and helping me and supporting me in that.

14:48Once you've been institutionalised by Formula One, which people who have been here for a long time in a way have been, is life outside F1 a little scary? I don't know. I've not really been outside it. So I've had those five months, but within two, I knew what I was doing. And certainly within three months, it was all signed and sealed for me coming to Racing Balls. So there was a month definitely where it was unpleasant and I didn't really know what I was doing. And just changing jobs, you know, I hadn't started a new job. So my job when I went to Alpha Tori or Racing Bulls as racing director was the second job.

15:31No, the third job I'd ever had, ever. That was scary. That was daunting, going somewhere new, walking through the doors to a new place for the very first time. But again, it's made a little bit easier because it's Formula One. As soon as I walked in, I remember walking through the doors of the, it was Bicester. We had a sort of aero facility in Bicester at the time. And straight away, you see three or four faces, you know, people you've worked with in the past, people from the pit lane. So that makes it a little bit easier. This episode is sponsored by Indeed. Building a great team is never easy.

16:06If you're a small business, hoping the right people see your job posting isn't the best growth strategy. When the pressure's on and you need the right hire, this is a job for sponsored jobs. Indeed, sponsored jobs gets you quality candidates when you need them most. Because when you're hiring, you don't just want more applicants, you want the right applicants. Sponsored jobs posted directly on Indeed are 95 % more likely to report a hire than non-sponsored jobs. That's because it helps you reach candidates that meet your specific criteria, such as skills, certifications, or location from the word go, boosting your job post in search results so you can reach the people that help your business thrive.

16:46So spend less time searching and more time actually interviewing candidates who check all of your boxes. Less stress, less time, more results. When you need the right person to cut through the chaos, this is a job for Indeed Sponsored Jobs. And listeners of this show will get a$75 sponsored job credit to help get your job the premium status it deserves at Indeed.com slash podcast. Just go to Indeed.com slash podcast right now and support our show by saying you heard about Indeed on this podcast. Indeed.com slash podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Need to hire? This is a job for Indeed-sponsored jobs.

17:27This episode is sponsored by Indeed. Building a great team is never easy. If you're a small business, hoping the right people see your job posting isn't the best growth strategy. When the pressure's on and you need the right hire, this is a job for sponsored jobs. Indeed, sponsored jobs gets you quality candidates when you need them most. Because when you're hiring, you don't just want more applicants, you want the right applicants. Sponsored jobs posted directly on Indeed are 95 % more likely to report a hire than non-sponsored jobs. That's because it helps you reach candidates that meet your specific criteria, such as skills, certifications, or location from the word go, boosting your job post in search results so you can reach the people that help your business thrive.

18:12So spend less time searching and more time actually interviewing candidates who check all of your boxes. Less stress, less time, more results. When you need the right person to cut through the chaos, this is a job for Indeed Sponsored Jobs. And listeners of this show will get a$75 sponsored job credit to help get your job the premium status it deserves at Indeed.com slash podcast. Just go to Indeed.com slash podcast right now and support our show by saying you heard about Indeed on this podcast. Indeed.com slash podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Need to hire? This is a job for Indeed-sponsored jobs.

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20:49Right, let's bring it back to these last 12 months. All of the experience you've just been talking about. How has the team changed since you've had the keys effectively with your experience over the last year or so? I don't know really. We have made some changes and I have had to make some changes. They've been a little bit forced. We lost very early on in my team principal tenure. We lost one of our very senior technical people. So I had a little bit of a reshuffle in that area. That's when we brought in Dan Fallows to be technical director. Whereas before we had two deputy technical directors, if you like, reporting to Tim.

21:32Now we just have Dan as technical director reporting to Tim. and that I think has been a, certainly is working well. Whether it's better or worse, I don't know, but things are working very well in that area. And when I speak to the chief aerodynamicist, who's a super, super guy, he seems very happy in how things are. He's happy in the way that the team runs, certainly his team runs, or he's able to run his team. So I try and let the people run their team and when people like that come to me or I'll give you another example. We had a change right in the top of HR which reports to me and the girl who's now HR director at the time said, oh, what do you want me to, how do you want me to do things?

22:23And I said, I have no idea. I know nothing about HR but it's more, what do you need from me? So you're the expert, you do that but if there's something you need from me or something more you need in your department, come to me and then let's talk about it. So I'm definitely not a micromanager, shall we say. And I'm very happy to admit that my life has been at the track and that's what I know. So there are lots of new things I'm learning, but I don't feel I need to learn. Honestly, I don't feel that's a good use of my time to know about every department that reports to me, to know the ins and outs of that at all.

22:58So I'm much happier. I let people run it and me support them where they need it. And how would you describe the atmosphere inside the team? How does it compare to Alpine, for example? How different is it? So Alpine is a tricky one because the last few years were a bit tough. Certainly it was a fantastic place and I'm sure it's getting back there under Steve now, but the last few years were a bit tough there. I think we have a great atmosphere. You know, you certainly feel it when you go in on a Monday morning after a good result. The whole place is lifted and is buzzing. And I spend a little bit of time in Milton Keynes, but most of my time I spend in Faenza in Italy.

23:39And I try and it's a big place. You know, we're sort of touted as a small team, but it's a big place. There's 600 people there, something like that. So I try and at least once a month get around and have a wander around everywhere and say hello to people. and that sort of thing rather than being stuck in my office, if you like. It's good. It feels good there. Alan, it's amazing how it's changed. I first went to the team in 1998 when it was Minardi and it really was just a couple of small little buildings. And now it is, as you say, it's a bona fide big Formula One team. Yeah, and we just started another big construction project there to expand production with the aim to be able to make every single part that we're capable of making to make in-house.

24:33So we can't make a fuel cell, we can't make a radiator, and no teams are doing that sort of thing. But everything else, we want to make ourselves. And that's an efficiency that enables you to make parts faster, enables you to make parts cheaper. it's a cost cap efficiency it's it's a sign the team is um is still growing uh and and we're i'm incredibly grateful for the support from austria to enable us to do that sort of thing and that's one of the things that i certainly didn't appreciate uh i appreciate it a bit when i was racing director but being team principal you really appreciate the support from red bull austria what is the brief from red bull austria because of course when it became torosso back in i think 2005 it was very much about developing young drivers even young engineering talent as well and it still is that is still the yeah absolutely it absolutely is at some level is that a frustration to you um no because i know that's the brief you know if you told me i could have max and fernando of course but i can't you know and i know that i know no world exclusive exactly it's not a frustration it's absolutely not and and there's definitely a satisfaction in bringing on young drivers uh there's certainly one of the one of the very few nice things about getting older is is giving experience and help to young engineers and and certainly i'm trying to do that with drivers as well and i i hope and i think we're having some success in that area what do you make of I think it was Zach Brown who was quite vocal a few races back about one entity owning two Formula One teams I think he was referencing Toto Wolff trying to buy the minority stake in Alpine of course Red Bull has these two teams has had these two teams for more than 20 years what's your take on on Zach's comments well you won't be surprised to hear that I don't agree with zach funnily enough look i think zach is doing what zach should be doing which is fighting the fight on all fronts he's fighting on the track he's fighting off the track and and he's not fighting us of course he's fighting with with red bull there with our current performance we're not a threat to mclaren we're we're we're a way off them especially in the race you see it there's a there's a very healthy gap but i think he's doing he's he's doing what he can to just unsettle things and make things a little bit unstable i think i think the way he went about it wasn't particularly nice writing an open letter instead of coming i've been super happy if he'd have pick the phone up and we have a chat that he wrote this open letter that had several inaccuracies in it saying that our staff are leaving with minimal or no notice periods and that's just not true it's it's it's absolutely not true he specifically talks about a guy and and it's who i talked about earlier this this we had this deputy technical director and he's gone to to rebel racing and said oh this all happened within a couple of months it's not true at all i knew about that in september last year that that he's he was he wanted to leave and he wanted to go to rebel racing and and i specifically didn't let him leave until i think it was april time um and then he had to serve three months gardening leave as well which is in fri regulations so so any any teams that have a uh a relationship it's very it's very clearly governed in the regulations what you have to do and we followed that.

28:01So there's inaccuracies there, but I also see it from Zach's point of view. I see what he's doing. You know, no offence taken, but I see why he's doing it. But honestly, to be on this side of it and see the steps we go to, to make sure that we are operating fairly and within the rules. So to operate within the rules and what we take from Red Bull is, I don't want to say it's a burden because that's not quite the right word, but we put a lot of effort into making sure that we are respecting the regulations. And more so than I would have done in a previous team, you don't have to worry about that side of things.

28:35I mean, how different is your relationship, say, to Haas's with Ferrari? Are there similarities there? I mean, I guess so, because I think they take, and I don't actually know what Haas's relationship with Ferrari, but ours is very much a customer-supplier relationship. So we take Rebel's front suspension, we take Rebel's rear suspension, we take Rebel's gearbox. And on the car, that's about the limit of it. And there are a few other bits and bobs, the steering wheel and I think the steering rack. But whatever is allowed in that... Sounds very similar to Haas, actually. In that transferable component, part of the technical regulations we're taking.

29:15Now, we also share a wind tunnel with them. But again, that is, you know, in a perfect world, if we had a Magic Wand, we'd have our own wind tunnel. Of course, you know, you'd both have a state-of-the-art wind tunnel. But we don't. And there are certain good reasons to do that in terms of financial reasons. You don't want to build 200 million plus facilities, but it's definitely a lot of effort. A huge amount of effort goes into making sure that those two teams are kept separately during wind tunnel running. Absolutely. And that brings an additional burden, as I say. And that is the bit that is based in Milton Keynes.

29:52It's just aero. No, not quite anymore. It started off as just an aero design, but now it's aerodynamicists, our model shop is there, but we also have some full-size car design there. We have some race engineers there, we have some strategists there, and I think we've got two sites, and we're trying to use the advantages, any potential advantages of that. So if someone particularly wants to work in the UK, they can. If someone particularly wants to work in Italy, they can. and that we're using, you know, we're trying to use that to our advantage where we can. We like to think we're location-free, but it's not quite location-free.

30:31It's Italy or England. All that hard work is paying off this year. 2026 has been going really well. At the time of this chat, four consecutive double points finishes. A man who's done so much racing in his life, as you have, what pleases you the most about the performances this year? Oh, so much. You know, having competitive Saturdays and Sundays, of course, is magnificent. It's just, it's what we come here to do. Me and James Allison always used to laugh back in the day when we were working together. We used to say, how's the lump of carbon, titanium and rubber treating you? Because it's, your mood is governed by that car at the track.

31:13And it's tragic to say it, but it really is. and I'm very conscious of the fact that we've had four fantastic races. There will be a point, I guess, when we don't get both cars in the points and that will be part of my role is to keep everyone buoyed and keep their heads up and that sort of thing. We can't catch those top four at the moment. They're a bit too far away. I think McLaren were the closest car to us at Silverson and in the race, they're nearly a second the lap quicker than us. so to talk about mercedes and ferrari they're even a even a bit further away but if we can move ourselves a bit away from the audis and the alpines and just have a boring races that that would suit me very well you raise a good point about the top four teams right how far away are you from being a top four team you talk about lap time but just in terms of infrastructure and facilities you you've won world championships back in the day right yeah but it's a very different And that was 20 years ago.