Andrea Stella + Zak Brown: McLaren’s transformation + the Drivers’ Championship race

29:40His wife. Family, for sure. You know, I've been very privileged because I joined Ferrari in 2000 when the team was starting the dominance. That I think it changed Formula One. It changed like, it added one more level to the standards that you should establish to actually be successful and be successful in a way that can be perpetuated over time. and I've been able to collaborate with people from whom I have learned a lot and I think if there's a characteristic that I've always tried to pay attention to in my own personal development is learn from the people that you work with learn from the people that you interact it's such a better way faster way of becoming every day a better version of yourself.

30:42And if I think working with Sean Todd, Luca di Montezemolo, Rose Braun, Rory Birn, Stefano Domenicali, Michael Schumacher, there's so much that you can absorb to become a better version of yourself. So that's what I'm carrying over my career and definitely has been very beneficial coming to McLaren and being involved in a process of transformation. And in processes of transformation or even in the process of leading from a team principle point of view, it's very important that you have simple, clear ideas about what is important. And I think understanding what is important in a simple way, in a clear way, in a way that you can actually communicate to everyone else because you go nowhere alone, you need to carry 1 ,000 people with you.

31:34I think that's coming from this school that I've been privileged to be part of when I was at Ferrari. Andrea, you speak with such confidence, such knowledge. I'm fascinated about how and why and when you accepted the role of team principal because Zach tried to persuade you if tell me if I'm wrong no you're right tried to persuade you to take the job in 2018 you didn't why in 2018 I think um my focus based on the conversation I had at McLaren, I should have been diverted to the technical aspect and like resolving the performance difficulties that we were having. And in fact, at the time I became performance director.

32:20And I think we needed to stay focused and relatively limited in the area of influence because there was a significant amount of insights that I needed to gain. And when you are at in principle necessarily you need to navigate at a slightly higher level, less detailed, but at the time we were in such a negative spiral that we needed to go into every level of detail to understand why a talented group of people is not in condition to perform. I felt at the time that was the right role for me and I'm not a kind of a career-led person. I'm more like what's needed for the business. I know I'm gonna get passionate about what I do anyhow because I'm already privileged enough to be in this environment which I enjoy independent of the angle I come from.

33:15So that was the right thing to do at the time in 2018. Zach, did you understand that reasoning at the time? Um, not as well as I kind of do now, knowing Andrea as I do. The second time around, it wasn't one phone call either. Still needed persuading. You're not going to persuade Andrea. You're going to, he needs to persuade himself. You're going to lay out the opportunity with enthusiasm. but he's going to come to his own decision. We've got a great way of working and I don't know if it's the engineering side or I use the right side of the brain and he uses the left or the other way around or the front or back or however that works.

34:06But Andrea is very thoughtful, very considerate, almost kind of needs to see the data to know he can take that corner flat. Or I might be a little bit more, I think I can take that corner flat, but there's a chance I'm going to end up in the fence. And so the second time around, I needed to sleep on it. I think it was, you know, weekend, a few days, a week. Seven days. And it was, you can't push. Just lay it out there, your rationale, and then kind of let him come to his own decision. Right. Can we talk about the turnaround of this race team? I mean, in the 10 years, because I think it's relevant to what we're talking about now.

34:49I mean, Zach, when you joined in 2016, the team had finished, I think, sixth in the Constructors' Championship that year. It got worse the following year, didn't it? You finished ninth, second last in the Constructors' Championship. How difficult was it to dig yourselves out of that hole at the time? I hesitate because at the time it felt like it was taking forever. but then look back, you know, it takes time to turn around a big boat, throw the water off, get it out of the harbour, and then be able to pull the throttle back. I mean, how desperate was it? I mean, was the team's future ever in doubt back then?

35:29Oh, it was as bad as you could get, right? You're ninth in the championship, you have very little sponsorship, fans aren't happy with you, and what was worse was the environment, the lack of trust and transparency inside the factory was not good. Other than that, everything was great. What was great was our brand, our history, McLaren. And I had no doubt that we had great people here. But when you have five different team bosses in five years, right, you can't lead anything when you have a new leader every 12 months. I thought there has to be greatness in here. I've hung out with McLaren for a long time.

36:15I remember when we just almost took for granted, you're going to finish first and second. I remember those years. And so first thing I want to do is kind of rebuild trust through transparency and kind of hit on all the different areas, right? So from a fan point of view, all our fans wanted us to go back to Papaya. So we went back to Papaya. That's what our fans wanted. That brought some energy, some color to our team, right? We were very dark and exclusive and we weren't inclusive and it was kind of a quiet place. You would walk around here and you could hear a pin drop. Then tackle the commercial side because we needed revenue so we could go get new wind tunnels, drivers, more talent, get budget to be able to spend, and then get the right technical team in place.

37:02And if you think about, I'll kind of paint a story of where we got to today in, what was it 19 where we had our first podium that was the work of 2018 19 and that was andrea that was gil de ferrin that was gil who brought back pat fry who and andrea worked with and we kind of start getting some momentum right 20 was a a good year the 21 car was actually effectively our 20 car, which is done in 2019. Let me not forget Pete Padromo in that very select group. But all we did was change power units because of COVID, you had to use your tokens. So in 21, we're now won our first race and some good podiums.

37:49That was the work of Andrea, Padromo, Gilles, Pat Fry, and of course, everybody else in here. 22, we have the headlines of our driver, you know challenges with Daniel who's a great guy and unfortunately just didn't work but I saw underneath that I didn't like the direction the team was going and the leadership around what we do today just incremental gains kind of never being satisfied striving for perfection never getting to perfection because you can always do better but still chasing it that type of incremental teamwork mindset. So for me, my aha moment, even though all the headlines were kind of Daniel and driver issues, was the French Grand Prix in 22.

38:33We brought a big upgrades and they didn't work. And the response wasn't the response I was expecting. Forget about the fact that technically I can't solve that problem, but I could look at the people I'm expecting to solve that problem and go, did you guys not just see what happened on Sunday? And it was just kind like business as usual on Monday. That was my light bulb moment. And then made those changes at the end of the year. After a week sitting on, I hope Andrea does this, came in and very quickly went to work, identified that we have a problem with our car at the start of 23, which I knew would be the case in the middle of 22, because that's when you're heavy into development.

39:18became very transparent. We told the media and everyone was, oh my God, what are you, crazy? It was like, well, you're going to see it first race. We might as well be straight with you. So we're very straight talkers. We stay very disciplined on how we carry ourselves. We're honest with ourselves. We're honest with everyone. And kept saying, don't worry, we'll be good in Austria. And as you know, Andrea, he doesn't make big claims, but he was starting to kind of like, Austria is going to be good. And I'm like, I hope it's going to be good because up until Austria, was pretty miserable and bolt on the new car to Lando goes out has a great result then that nervousness is like what if it's just we're good around there and Lando's good around there and then Oscar gets it and then magic happens at Silverstone and it's been a pretty awesome ride since then and the story I like to tell it comes back to the people it's the same call it a thousand people.

40:13We made three or four changes, a couple structural changes. It was the same 996 people that gave us the car that was ninth quickest on the grid in whatever would have been the first race, Bahrain, that gave us a car that was running at the front by the end of the year. And that's the power of people and leadership and teamwork and alignment. This episode is sponsored by Indeed. There's a lot that goes on behind the scenes of this show, booking guests across time zones, tight turnaround edits and constant time management. And when things get chaotic, you realise pretty quickly how important it is to have the right person on your team.

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43:00This episode is sponsored by Indeed. There's a lot that goes on behind the scenes of this show, booking guests across time zones, tight turnaround edits, and constant time management. And when things get chaotic, you realise pretty quickly how important it is to have the right person on your team. If I had to hire someone tomorrow, I wouldn't just want a good editor. I'd want someone who understands pace in long-form interviews and can work fast under pressure, And in moments like that, you think, this is a job for sponsored jobs. Because Indeed Sponsored Jobs boosts your listing in search results, helping you reach the candidates with the specific skills and experience you actually need.

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44:21Indeed.com slash podcast. Terms and conditions apply. need to hire this is a job for indeed sponsored jobs

44:34zach and andrea are getting ready for four crucial races at the end of this amazing formula one season we're going to have twists and turns every weekend lando norris oscar piastri and max verstappen will be racing for the world title under the lights in las vegas and tickets for the most spectacular race weekend of the season are on sale. Go to f1lasvegasgp.com to get yours.

45:02Can I ask you, Andrea, what were you thinking on the Monday after the French Grand Prix in 22? Yeah, that we had definitely a lot of work to do, that we needed to go, if anything, one level down. The level where we were developing the car before the upgrades made it trackside and understand methodologically why things do not work like we expect. There's quite a lot of foundational work that we need to do. It's almost like let's tear down the house, let's start again from the foundation, even if it looks like we are going backwards, but is going to be the right investment for the future. Just create strong foundations.

45:48You need to understand what you're doing. If you don't understand what you're doing in this business, you'll find yourself running fast to go nowhere. Or, if anything, even backwards. You know, we've seen upgrades taken trackside. They don't work. You get lost. You need to do back-to-back tests to understand. It's not the spiral in which you want to end up. So for me, it was one of those situations in which you need to really slow down. Slow down, understand the basics of how you're approaching the technical development, and then rebuild from there. And that was my thought. How integral have the drivers been in the turnaround?

46:29Or is actually, this is not about drivers. This was more fundamental back here at the MTC. Well, it's got to be both. But at the end of the day, we've got the best driver lineup in Formula One. And when you're building a race team, the first two people you need are the two greatest racing drivers in the world. Otherwise, it's all a waste of time. And we had Lando. You know, we had Fernando Alonso. You know, we had a challenge with Daniel, but I also don't think we gave him in 2022 a great racing car. Lando adapted to it better, but that wasn't a great racing car. So it was back here at base, if you'd like.

47:06It was, as Andrea said, it was the fundamentals. It was the broader team. It was getting everyone to say, give me the ball. I want to contribute. I want to lean in. So I think we needed to fix our racing team. Once you do that, you need the two greatest racing drivers in the world or it's all a waste of time. Guys, Patrick Head always used to say, racing drivers are like light bulbs. You take one out, you put another one in. Do you agree? Not our approach. You know, like it's a very respected source, not the way we are doing things here. We would not be able to approach things the way we do without the support of our drivers.

47:53The drivers, they play such an important leadership role because they set the tone, they set the emotional state of the team. They can be so influential. And the drivers, they do come, they walk the floor, they do support the leadership of this team, Zach and my leadership, in a very integral way. And if we weren't united, if we weren't sharing the same vision with Oscar and Lando, we would just be not as effective. You've given me an idea, though, for a helmet livery takeover. Light bulbs for Oscar and Lando. I think that'd be hilarious. People will think it's a light bulb. Zach's had a light bulb moment.

48:33Can we talk about Lando? He's contested all 148 races of his career so far with McLaren, at McLaren. How has he evolved as a racing driver in that time? It's been a fantastic journey together with Lando. I remember very well his first test in Hungary. Very, very talented. We were saying like, OK, 20 bar more here, more pressure. He would go out, he would do it. So clearly great awareness of what he's doing in the car. His development has been continued. As a driver, he's become a very strong driver in the race, especially in some conditions. I think he's definitely the best driver when it comes to going long stints, used tires, like that's Lando's regime.

49:25and in addition to this great drive and the results that Lando has brought to McLaren, he has been a fundamental part, like I said before, of the leadership and the commitment he made to McLaren when we did not have much to offer and yet he committed to McLaren, he kind of trusted that we would have turned the place around is something that set a strong message to everyone, set a strong message to the entire team, a message of belief and it's a message for which we are definitely grateful. Likewise, I mean we're going to talk about Oscar I guess, but it's the same sort of message that Oscar offered when he said, I'll commit to McLaren, when in fact we didn't have much to offer again you know in 2023 so it's but specifically with Lando he's been here for seven years Red Bull pushed really hard to get him back in the day has his loyalty to the team created an emotional bias within the people here more towards him than towards Oscar who's only in his third year with the team um I was just about to say that you know the same kind of commitment to the team, the same sort of all-in to the team, full support to the team.

50:57It did come from Oscar as well. So when you are in my role, it's like when you have two sons and somebody says, like, which one is your preferred son? Yeah, but they are my two sons. How can you say which one is the preferred one? So sometimes when I hear or read some comments of this kind, I find them really very superficial and just like I think that sometimes people don't really understand what it means to have two drivers that are with you, that are with you together in this journey in Formula One. So I just feel very grateful to both in fairness. Oscar's improvement last year to this year has been sensational.

51:45It's almost as if he did a year's racing in the off-season last winter, isn't it? The rate of his improvement. Can you tell me, either of you, where you think he's made the greatest steps? I think the main step has been a step of awareness. Awareness in terms of his abilities, awareness in terms of where he needed to improve. There was great work that happened during the winter. and Oscar has this formidable quality that when he understands what he needs to do, he goes and does it. Sometimes when you are not very talented, you may understand what to do, but then your arms and your feet, they just don't do it.

52:29When Oscar understands... I have no reference to anybody present here. Andrew, what do you mean? What kind of stuff was he doing? Just how to be fast. You know how to be fast, how to use your brake, your throttle, how to use the tires, what you should feel on the tires to be fast, how to use the telemetry data. When you see something, for instance, from your teammate, how do you go there now and you do it? So Oscar, the main step he made from one season to the other is pure speed. It's just a faster driver. When you are a faster driver, this creates the capacity for pretty much all the rest. It's not like you can be a better driver if you are not a faster driver.

53:13Oscar is simply faster. And if anything, we are still within this development. We saw even in Mexico very particular conditions. Oscar is year three in Formula One. And the very particular conditions of Mexico, he has just faced them just a few times. So he still needs to go through, like, let me elaborate what is going on here. and already made a big step from Saturday to Sunday. Just because he understood what needed to be done, he goes there and he does it. So a great talent in terms of evolving, developing, once he understands what's needed to be done. And biggest step from last year, pure speed.

53:56Let's talk about the Drivers' Championship now. Well, we've discussed the constructors. We've got four races to go. Your sons are separated by just the one point. You've let them race all season. Can we just discuss that a little bit first? Did you agree on that philosophy from the get-go? Well, I would say that we're not... Yes, we're racers. Yeah, we are racers. We are McLaren racing. We are in the home of McLaren racing. We are here to race. I think on this one, the agreement with Zach was like, from day one, we are racers. We are going to face it as racers. We are going to accept the discomfort.

54:37that this causes when you approach racing like we do like guys we support your aspirations we know that you want to both be champions we let them you race there will have to be some rules because you come from the same garage so like one has to go first and the other one has to go second we execute a pistol pin the same pit box so we cannot beat the same lap so there's some practical kind of rules that you need to have, don't crush into each other. But apart from that, there's not much more than this. We let them race. We want to see them racing with fairness. We want to see them racing with respect for the brand.

55:24McLaren and McLaren Racing and the legacy of McLaren Racing is bigger than Andrea, is bigger than Lando, is bigger than Oscar, is bigger than anybody else. And wherever you are in the execution of your duties, you respect the legacy of McLaren. That's our framework. Within this framework, go and do your best on track. So, Andrea, what do you say to people who accuse you of overmanaging your drivers, overmanaging the situation, meddling too much? Ignore them. The question was for Andrea. But we get the same question. we are so focused on ourselves and doing the right thing and the commitment we've made to the racing team, our sponsor partners, our shareholders, and our fans.

56:15But not everyone can be as informed as we are. I think the reason why you see such a great relationship between Lando and Oscar is they know they have equal opportunity to win the world championship. And we're transparent. We're fair. We communicate. We're not perfect. but we're racers and they know that. So it's all this noise around but we don't let that noise come inside the MTC. We've all been in Formula 1 a long time, right? I've never seen an F1 team have such a hold over its two drivers as you two do over your sons. How difficult has that been to achieve? To get them to believe in the system so much.

57:01I mean, Andre, you came from Ferrari and I think of there was unhappy Rubens a few times, there was unhappy Felipe Massa a few times. How have you created an environment of such harmony and such a hold over the two guys? I think I would mention two main elements that played an important role. The first one is we learn from history. You need to know the history of Formula One. We take this history into account. We know what happens when you don't pursue enough the fairness, the equality, the sportsmanship within a Formula One team. Within a Formula One team. The second one is what Zach said before.

57:44He works so hard to create a foundation where openness, trust, inclusivity, they are the key values. So with Lando and Oscar, we need to talk about the racing framework. How do we go racing together? We talk, the four of us. It's not going to be Zach and Andrea. This is the framework. Oscar, this is for you. Lando, this is for you. Now you go and execute. We might have started with an idea and we say, Lando, Oscar, what do you think? What's your contribution? The drivers will not adhere to something that they have not been part of in the making of it. They have to be part of it. So that's where we started from.

58:29That's what they have kind of, we are in, we agree, and that's how we can manage it. It's always going to be very challenging because it's one of the very few things in which there's not going to be a solution that is happiness for everyone. We do hope, and we are working very hard to make sure that the driver's champion drives a papaya car. and if that's the case, there's only going to be one. But for us it's important that the other one will think that there's been sportsmanship, there's been fairness, there's been equality. Within this framework, we have the conditions to win even in the future.

59:09We are protecting the present, we are protecting the future and they know that they are going to have these opportunities in the future because the future doesn't stop at the end of 25. McLaren wants to win in 26, in 27, in 28. And the conditions to do so, we create them now. So, if the world champion isn't driving a papaya car, Max Verstappen is looming, you can hear the Jaws music now, can't you? If Max were to take the title this year, given your dominance, will you regret the way you've gone racing? If Max is the champion at the end of the year, for us the important thing is that we can say we have done our best.

59:57And we have done our best according to the way we go racing. And if Max wins this year, we say we're going to win next year. We're going to be there. And we are going to be there united as we are. I shake his hand and say, job well done. I want to make sure if we don't win, he beats us. We don't beat ourselves. That's important. And we're well aware of 2007. Two drivers tie on points. One gets in the front. But, you know, we've got two drivers who want to win the world championship. We're playing offense. We're not playing defense. And I'd rather go, we did the best we can and our drivers tied in points and the other guy beat us by one.

1:00:42than the alternative, which is telling one of our drivers right now, when they're one point away from each other, I know you have a dream to win the world championship, but we've flipped the coin and you don't get to do it this year. Forget it. That's not how we go racing. The best way to win the constructors is to finish first and second in the championship. And the best way to win the driver's championship is to have two drivers going for the driver's championship. And in the event 2007 happens again, I'd rather have that outcome than all the other outcomes by playing favorites we won't do it we're racers we're going racing very well said guys thank you so much for your time it's been great to chat can I end this what I call the traditional way on the podcast which is to ask you both who's going to win the championship oh yeah both for your favorite memory in the 75 year history of the Formula One World Championship doesn't have to be McLaren related, it doesn't have to be Zach or Andrea related, it could be anything.

1:01:46There's many memories, but I think the 2024 victory of the Constructor Championship for McLaren in Abu Dhabi is such an incredible piece of history and it's a piece of history of our personnel, at least for me, and also an important piece of legacy for one of the most iconic teams, you know, going back to the winning ways. So I'm very proud to have him being part of that. And if there was one I needed to pick, I would pick that one. I'm going to give you two, and I know you only asked for one. I'm gonna say Abu Dhabi because the energy in the garage after we won was just electric I remember like it was yesterday but I almost like there was nothing rehearsed about it there was no prepared speech like it just happened so that's number one but the one that got me all started in Formula One was when I went to the Long Beach Grand Prix in 1981 as a 10-year-old.

1:02:54Alan Jones won. Funny enough, Monserroge was sponsoring the Williams cars. And it was at that moment onwards I fell in love with Formula 1. So I'm sorry you asked for one, but I had to give you two. Brilliant. Guys, thank you very much for your time. No problem. Thank you. Thank you.

1:03:15Abu Dhabi 2024, Long Beach 81, What's clear is that both Zach and Andrea love Formula One. Their passion for the sport is infectious and will have inspired the workforce at McLaren in what has been a remarkable turnaround for the team. Only in 2017, they finished second last in the Constructors' Championship and now look at them. I got so much out of listening to these two and not least that they make a brilliant double act. I loved Andrea's assessment that the team is run by one person that happens to be two people. It's not long now until we'll know the identity of the 2025 Drivers World Champion.

1:03:55If it's Lando or Oscar, one can only imagine the scale of the celebrations at the MTC. Thanks, Zach. Thanks, Andrea, for your time. It was great to chat. Well, that's almost it for this episode. Remember that F1 is back this weekend for round 21 in Brazil. Interlagos has a habit of throwing up huge twists and turns in the World Championship and F1 Nation's preview of the Sao Paulo Grand Prix is out now with myself, Jolian Palmer and Eric Van Haren in which we discuss what might happen in this epic title fight between Lando, Oscar and Max. Just search for F1 Nation on your podcast app to give that a listen.

1:04:34I will of course be back next week with another great guest from the world of Formula 1 but for now, thanks very much for listening. F1 Beyond the Grid is produced by Formula One and Audioboom Studios. Until next time, keep it flat out.

1:04:54If there's one thing Formula One proves, it's that progress comes from people who are willing to push the limits. And history is full of them. The inventors, engineers, leaders and outsiders who change the game through bold ideas, nerve and moments of brilliance. That's what the podcast Short History Of is all about. Each vividly immersive episode delves into one remarkable subject from world history, from revolutionary people and world changing inventions to defining events that still shape our lives today. So if you love innovation, ambition and stories about what happens when people go all in, give Short History of a listen.

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