James Vowles: podium pride + Williams’ winning potential

26:27As to what surprised me with Carlos, really good way of working with engineering teams, very clear, concise feedback that directs us where we need to be. I didn't have to ask him to come into the factory. He came in at 9am one day. He was already sat with the aero team deep in conversations over exactly at this point in the data, just there, that's where I feel the front washout. And look, around turn nine, again there, that's where I feel it. And they start to, basically, we watched about a team of 15 people, then break down into that and go, I wonder if it's associated with X, Y, and Z. That wasn't me saying, Carlos, I really need you in the factory on a Monday morning at 9am to go and work with people.

27:03It's his incentive to do so because he wants the team to be successful. And I think that caught me off guard. I've seen seen many drivers in my lifetime. It's rare for one to A, be awake before 8am, but more importantly, wanting to spend their time with a team in that way. Back to school starts now. Get long-lasting battery life on the Dell XPS laptop powered by Series 3 Intel Core so you can work from anywhere. Now starting at$699 with exclusive student pricing starting at$599. And it's lightweight, portable and packed with enough processing power to make multitasking a breeze. So say goodbye to distractions and hello to more free time because you've finished your work faster.

27:54Complete your setup with savings on select monitors and more must-have electronics and accessories. limited time deals and free shipping on PCs and more await you at dell.com forward slash deals. That's dell.com slash deals.

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29:48F1 Nation's review of the Singapore Grand Prix is out now. We discuss a statement win for George Russell and how the title fight between Lando Norris and Oscar Piastri might change now McLaren are Constructors World Champions. And this week's episode of F1 Explains is all about the marshals who keep our sports safe. That's out on Friday. Just search for F1 Nation and F1 Explains on your podcast app.

30:15you said a little bit earlier in this chat that you were really pleased for carlos about the podium did you sense frustration creeping in prior to baku i mean he'd had that consistent run between sort of saudi and canada hadn't he but it had always been for the lower points paying positions was he getting a little bit frustrated even desperate or is that too strong a word no he never got to that level. I think part of it is he wanted to prove to me you've definitely made the right decision by taking the risks you have on me at the same time. I think part of it was that neither he nor I believe in bad luck.

30:53It's hard to describe what's gone wrong, but bad luck is self-created in my opinion. You can do enough preparation to somewhat mitigate or avoid a lot of it. And yet you look at the races and the stats I think that was provided to him was 11 races and he's had some sort of incident. It's stats that you start to question things with. And that's where not for me personally i was very relaxed and what i said to him was nothing was about 25 everything was about making sure you're helping us develop and build ourselves really into a championship level team such that when the car comes along and it will take a little bit more time we're ready to go in that regard he put pressure on himself but every racing driver i know puts pressure on themselves because it's that's how you get the most out of yourself in that regard i think he had a frustration that he had opportunities to to show his potential and it just didn't work out for one way or another but he was also incredibly professional at resetting himself before um we got into that race event and that's what happened on Baku on the Thursday night himself everyone around Carlos is called Carlos Sainz um so myself Carlos Sainz and Carlos Sainz had dinner um and just for clarity other Carlos Sainz is his manager isn't he is his manager in this in this circumstance yeah Yep.

32:06Although ironically, he said everyone in our team is called James, which he's not wrong about either. So it's probably horses for courses. And we just had a really honest chat about what's gone wrong. How do we mitigate it? What's gone well as well? There was so many things that he's brought to the team. An example is what I've just given you here, where I guarantee you, but we have found performance as a result of his hard work this year. And when we started to roll through it, you could see almost a weight lifting off his shoulders because I'm not worried about the now we're here for a longer term um picture together and performance together and it will come i'm very confident it'll come what he has is performance if he didn't have performance we've got a big problem interestingly in the post-qualifying press conference in baku i suggested to him that the transition to williams hadn't been the easiest and he was very quick to put me straight on that and he said the transition to williams from ferrari has been fine it's just the results that haven't been haven't been kind but he it was he was very very determined that i needed to be corrected on that i would say it took him a few races without question to get up to speed on there are pu differences and there's a balance difference which is i'm fairly confident the same in return that lewis is struggling with a little bit our cars are quite different between a ferrari and a williams but i also would agree with him if you remember around imola time for example that wasn't that far in the season he out qualified alex and his stats in qualifying aren't bad at all but it has been filled with just random events that you couldn't predict beforehand so he's somewhat true in what he's saying but I think what he also means is he feels at home in Williams as I do as well very quickly because the team's good at doing that.

33:42When you have a driver who's won before as Carlos has do you sense them step up when there's the opportunity of a big result? Did you see anything different in Carlos after qualifying when the podium was there for the taking arguably yes well what i saw more was what i'm used to from mercedes which is a driver that was incredibly relaxed while some might be nervous for him it was just business as usual in that circumstance and i think his calmness very much spread across everyone as the result of it because frankly he has been there and done that before he had belief in the car belief were quick enough and so that was a different car loss i don't think that's anything to do with the fact it's a good result in what has been a somewhat difficult season for whatever reason.

34:27I think that's just more. That is Carlos. He's great when you put him in the position where he has a sniff at something special. So what about Alex? Let's bring him in on this now. Have you seen him step it up this year? First of all, did Alex mention Thai food in the conference today? There was no mention of Thai food, no. I think there was a challenge on him. Come on, there must be a... Share it. I only caught them doing this, but there was basically a challenge that he had to insert the word Thai food. And I said, that's really easy. My favorite food is Thai food. You can put that in anywhere.

34:58But anyway, apparently that's what he should have been doing today. Hopefully I'm ruining something for the future. Back to Alex. Alex, I've had the pleasure of knowing him since 2016. I could tell you from the outset, he was very quick, but he needed the right form where the world isn't questioning his teammates or what's going on. There's no questioning now. Carlos is absolutely the reference you need. And yet Alex this year, every time there has been a result, he's gone and picked it up. Simple as that. His pace has been outstanding. I think if there's any doubts, it should be gone by now in people's minds.

35:32In what areas in terms of what he's doing behind the wheel, his inputs, are they different? No, I would say the biggest difference I've noticed with Alex is a step up in his confidence and belief. That's the main thing in the team and in himself at the same time. In terms of what he wants from the car? Actually, he's always been very good at knowing what he wants from the car. The best way to explain it to you is that every human being goes through cycles where they're more or less confident in themselves in the car and what goes around. You cannot waver Alex one bit this year. Not for a second can you even just push him.

36:07He is absolutely confident in what he is doing and what the car is doing around that. That doesn't mean we're perfect on the car, not by any stretch of the imagination, but his driving force is one of fix this, fix this, and I will go faster. And it's directing the team in the right way. And I think that comes from, my point is, has Alex always been quick? Yes, I guarantee you he's always been quick. Is he now in a position where he knows how to extract the last few milliseconds from the car? Because in doing so, you can put yourself in a much better place, definitely. And we have some clearities in this car on just how to approach certain corners, simple as that.

36:39But he's really, really good at vocalizing that, helping Carlos as well. He's not keeping it for himself. It's immediately straight out there. I'll look at this. This is what I'm doing here. And then helping the engineers drive the direction of travel. And it's in that way, he's more vocal than I've heard him before. And his direction is absolutely spot on. So that's what I meant by confidence as the driver. You said earlier that they rub along very well together. Is one of them the alpha in that relationship? Not really. Again, I go back to their egos are checked at the door. And it is fantastic.

37:09There is no alpha between the two of them. There's no one area that the other one is trying to dominate in any particular space. They just want the same thing, which is the car to be quick. Right. If the car is quick in the future and you're challenging for race wins, do you think the relationship could need managing? Or are you confident that they'll stay as they are? I'm confident I can create a structure that allows them to push each other and themselves and the team, but in a way that's cohesive towards the result. I'm very confident of that. Just out of interest on this topic, when you look back at your time at Merck, and I'm going to talk about Rosberg and Hamilton now, with the experience, you know, the decade of experience you've gained since then, if that situation were to arise at Williams, would you do things differently to how they were done back then?

37:59I would do it more how we learned how to process it towards the later years. I think I was very green in 2014, 2015. We had a structure nowhere near robust and strong enough to deal with two potential world champions, which is what they are. And I've learned a tremendous amount from that. And we changed quite a bit on how we were handling things 2016, 2017, 2018, and even all the way up until 2021. one. So I've had the benefit at the end of that journey, and then also followed by the additional learning I've had since then as well. So there'll be refinements. You don't throw the baby out with the bathwater, but there's definite refinements on how to work it.

38:37Professional racing drivers are like any elite athlete in the world. They want to have something where they know they can push the limits to, but in a way that they understand what those limits are so that when they're transcending it, you have a correction mechanism in place. And the real key behind it is think of it as creating a box around them. That's your box. That's where you push into it. You push a millimeter over that on the other hand, you step into my world and this is how we correct it. And that just gives them the form that they know where they can press each other, press the team, but in a controlled way.

39:04I get trying to compartmentalize people, but people don't like being put in boxes, do they? To be clear though, they still can be themselves and human beings. You want to be remembered for being a true sports person through and through. Hopefully one that is a winner and a winner of a championship. it only takes one event that you lose the faith and trust of the team and everyone in the world potentially around you at that point in time one event is normally all it takes and so the construct isn't trying to restrict them it's trying to give them the boundaries where they know as a sportsman they can absolutely push themselves to limit but at least they know where the limit is now because unguided that limit could be in a very different place i'm really interested in your philosophy on this so what is the right thing i mean we're seeing it at mclaren now i think it's an interesting time in Formula One in terms of, do you want two number ones like you have at Williams, like McLaren has, or actually is it better to have a slightly more of a Red Bull system where you've got one clear number one and you don't have any of the potential pitfalls of putting people in boxes and don't stray into that area and things like that?

40:09Horses for courses. My goal is to win two championships, but the constructors is the one that is probably the most rewarding, certainly for us as individuals. You don't do that with really a large gulf between your two drivers. More so than that, I think there are, well, I think, I'm confident there are ways of dealing with events. You've got to be very careful not to play God. Just to be really clear, I think there is boundaries. And playing God is one of those boundaries. And that's sort of where there's a fine line. You've got to be very careful to transcend the wrong side of it. So what is your job as the team?

40:41Just to give them equal equipment and then let them go? Are you playing God if you do more than that no i think you can do a smite more than that because smites the right word to use in that felt natural uh because there's one pit stop box to be using at that point in time as well so you are restricted it's not two places you can't stop both on the same lap so you do need to create a construct around that they know that whether you qualify first or second that doesn't define where you finish in the race there is an ability to race each other and this is what it looks like so it doesn't quite end there because otherwise you end up with two cars in one pit box at one point in time, and that would be chaos.

41:16But I mean, I think McLaren have this rule as well. Rule number one is you don't take each other out. You don't hurt each other. You don't push each other off track. We are here as a team, and the team is bigger than the two of you. And if you're winning a championship or fighting for a championship, that's the result of all of us working together at this point in time, not despite the fact that we're all working together. And that's sort of the core rule that you can't go beyond. And I spoke about 2016, or my learning, my learning was you've got to be so clear on that, abundantly clear that people understand that when you transcend that, the consequences are dire.

41:49So that's part of it, which you could argue is put into the bracket of, again, the box that people don't like. What sort of consequences do Formula One drivers react to? What's in your armory? How do you punish a world champion elect? The most harshest of punishments is you're not in the car next week. correct and you would have that in your back pocket if you if you had two drivers that were pushing themselves that they are effectively crashing into each other more than they're finishing a race yes i mean it's the secret here james to have two very quick drivers but at completely different stages of their career i i'm not sure that helps you either because any driver I've ever worked with that has the pace that you're talking about, irrespective of where they are in their career, will want to win championships and win races.

42:44It's just doing it, as I said, in a way that I think is the right sportsmanlike conduct that goes with it at the same time. Back to school starts now. Get long-lasting battery life on the Dell XPS laptop powered by Series 3 Intel Core so you can work from anywhere. Now starting at$699 with exclusive student pricing starting at$599. And it's lightweight, portable, and packed with enough processing power to make multitasking a breeze. So say goodbye to distractions and hello to more free time because you've finished your work faster. Complete your setup with savings on select monitors and more must-have electronics and accessories.

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44:46on the topic of young drivers i think it's an incredibly interesting time for formula one now in that people are pushing drivers through and i think maybe max verstappen skewed people's perceptions of what's possible by getting in the car in 2015 age 17 but do you think young drivers are being pushed through too quickly look at the liam lawson's and the kimmy antonelli's this year for what it's worth you saw kimmy coming back more in the second half of the year so it probably tells you he's learning very quickly but he is learning and he wasn't up to speed immediately i think here's the biggest difference for me the grid in monza i think was eight tenths separating all of us.

45:26The difference now to before is in the previous world, you could do a small mistake. A small mistake would be a tenth or two tenths and probably still qualify one position behind your teammate. It's not the end of the world, is it? You do that now and you qualify five positions behind your teammate. It's a completely different world to where you were. And so for good, I think Formula One should be this close-knit competitive order where you get punished for making mistakes. But I think when we speak about rookies or not, we have to understand that that's the sort of mistake they will be making and when you do make it it's a lot more of an impact than it was just a few years ago in that regard um so i think they're being pushed too early it depends what your agenda is if mercedes agenda and i think it was was that 25 is is a year that they know they're not going to be the strongest but 26 is you need to forward invest in your driver at that point in time as long as you have the right construct around them that you support them all the way through the process they'll come out the other side alive are conversely some drivers being pushed into, I mean, Max is just outstanding in what he can do in the car.

46:27What he did in Baku in qualifying cannot be underestimated. That track was in an awful condition and he nailed a lap, absolutely nailed a lap. That's hard to be up against as any teammate in the world would be. And it's back to what I spoke to you at the very beginning about, which is, I know in the context of me and GT3, but if you start questioning yourself, it can be a negative spiral that you struggle to get out of. And it's even more reinforced when you're against someone that does some magical things in the car but we also have to remember that we are in my opinion the best motorsport category that exists in the world with the 20 best drivers so the pressure on your shoulders is just a part of getting in that car i mean my next question on this theme is do you think the minimum age for a super license should be increased i mean it's currently 18 what happens if you put it up to 21?

47:17I think we're in a good place now. I think 18 is a sensible place to be. I'll put it to you differently. If Kimi wasn't in a Mercedes and he was in a different team, he wouldn't have been with us, but somewhere else. So he was less than the limelight, but he was learning in his way through. I think the world would have accepted, that's fine, that's just part of the journey because that used to be how you were doing these things. So did he have a place in Formula One? 100%. And was he fine at 18, the maturity at 18 to go there? Yes, I think so as well. So the age doesn't concern me. I think it's more, are we doing enough to help the rookie drivers with enough experience in the car to get them up to speed as quickly as possible?

47:51And that might be an area that we need to, as a sport, keep working on. It's one that comes to the table frequently. Do you mean more driving over Grand Prix weekends, more FP1s, or do you think more testing in between races? You can already see on the FP1s we've changed. We've got four FP1s now this year compared to two. Good step in the right direction, but is there a way of effectively someone in the first year getting, are there an extra set of tires or an extra half an hour worth of practice in that circumstance? It'd be a bit boring because it'd be four cars going around the track. It doesn't have to be every race, just at a number of races.

48:22Do we think that's fair or unfair or the correct way of going about it? It's one of the questions I would put forward, but we have a responsibility to make sure we're bringing young drivers into the sport. The sport has a continuum beyond the current field, but we also want them to be competitive from the outset to a certain extent. How do we create that? The counter to what I've just said is, if I look at what's going on with a lot of the individuals, some of it can only be learned by racing, frankly, and getting caught up in those conditions. And the learning will stay with them forever, but half an hour more here or there probably won't make a difference to that.

48:52You've worked with a lot of young drivers. Franco Colopinto did nine races for you at the end of last season. He came in swinging, I think it was two points finishes in the opening four races. Then he had a few crashes, and the end of his time with you wasn't so stunning. Is that what we're talking about here? He's an interesting case because his performance, as you said, even in Monza was fantastic. Baku was extraordinary. Really did a great job of getting up to speed quickly. He did a lot of our simulator work. We saw it from the FP1. We didn't prepare him anywhere near the amount that I would like to prepare a young driver, which is what I said at the time.

49:29But he absorbed it brilliantly. What was then interesting is he didn't have a drive with us going forward. We'd already signed at that point Carlos and Alex. So the pressure on his shoulders was, I need to show the world I'm quick enough so that I earn my place in Formula One the following year. And the net result of that was, as you said, there were a number of instances that started popping up. So what's interesting there is the pressure he as a human being created on his own shoulders increased as the result of wanting more for himself in the future. So more running may not have helped in that circumstance, but it does illustrate to you the pressure that these individuals go through on a daily basis.

50:06And it's impressive how they absorb it. Do you think all the talk about Red Bull in the last few races last year turned his head and distracted him in some way? Distracted? No. Again, I'll go back to what he thought is, I need to show the world that I'm deserving of this. Now, for me, exactly to your point, he did show the world at the beginning. Carry on as you are, you're doing a really good job of this. but when you want something so much you can sometimes not deliver it to the same level you did before which is i think a good example of it um he's still quick very very quick there's no doubt about that but to your point he got caught up in incidents that maybe he wouldn't have done otherwise i didn't find him distracted he was just worried that his time in formula one would be over and was trying to make sure through any means he could it wasn't and is it very easy to overdrive the current brief yes yeah that that's the bit probably i didn't go into detail there it's incredibly easy to overdrive these cars it's probably the biggest single mistake we all make but it's definitely tough to do so brilliant well last topic if i may let's throw it forward to 2026 we're five months that's all away from the first grand prix of the new era what are you expecting from the cars next year?

51:20I think you're going to get, my prediction is overtaking in a different way to how it's achieved at the moment. There's no DRS, but there'll be a difference in how you use your energy. It's a lot more of a chess game for the drivers on how you efficiently use your car and your energy more so than it is this year. And to sort of put some numbers on that, there'll be some tracks where in a single braking zone, you can almost fill the battery up entirely. But the next straight, you can almost empty it entirely as well, depending on the length of the straight. But that creates a different dynamic to what we have today.

51:49And that creates a really different dynamic when you're racing someone at the same time. Is there a particular type of track where they will excel? So at the moment, there really is probably only two tracks where we're not very energy rich. Everything else is going to be fine for the purpose of it. And those two tracks, they're just a little bit more difficult on the energy side. For teams like ourselves, it's a clean sheet of paper. So we have the opportunity, nothing carries, not even a bolt carries over next year. So we have the opportunity to really dig out what we've been doing for the last 10 years that's not quite up to the right level and start again.

52:21So it creates opportunity for us. It'll mix the grid up. It probably won't be the order that you have today, which again, I think is good for the sport. I don't think the grid will go like 2014 to this massive expansion. I think there'll be a little bit more of a gap than we have now, but that just creates a different dynamic to where we are. And then there's going to be certain power units that are strong on certain types of track and others that are weak on certain types of track. So I think you'll get a different dynamic to where we are today, where all the power units have pretty much come within the same margin of tolerance as each other.

52:49The talk in the paddock is that the Mercedes PU is looking impressive. I don't know whether you can give us any intel on that and what sort of opportunities you feel Williams has got. It's an interesting talk of the paddock because no one knows. That's just the facts behind it. It's not like all the PU manufacturers come together with some cards, top trumps and go, okay, I'm here on power. Okay, I'm here on electrical. I'm here on weight i'm here on cooling efficiency um mercedes have always done well on regulation changes because they get ahead of the curve they forward invest ahead of the curve there's no doubt about that but the reality behind it is we don't know what ferrari have got what honda have got it's just a complete unknown at this point in time so i'm really pleased with the work that mercedes have done with their preparation and their development but until the lights go out in australia no one knows how close are you to your sort of race one spec uh still a way away it's uh within the next probably seven weeks or so you'll probably get there um so pushing it quite late a little bit earlier you're saying once every three months we're still pushing we're seeing different things in the factory are you seeing that rate in terms of car development as well you you have good weeks and bad weeks.

54:07Always, when you're in the new regulation set, and especially in the first year, you feel like heroes because you can find quite a bit of performance in quite a few different areas. And we're on a good pathway at the moment. But the reality behind it is this is where you do get little hints up and down the paddock. I think most people are finding it's all on a positive slope at the moment. So it's just how those relative slopes shake out in a few months' time that will be the interesting part. It's going to be so exciting, isn't it? And do you know what? Irrespective, James, as to where you fall out in the pecking order.

54:37One thing that has changed for you personally this year, and I think it's so evident when you look at social media feeds and things, is your standing in the sport. I was at the fan forum earlier and I saw the reception that you had when you came on the stage. I mean, it's pretty mental how I feel your life has changed on that front. Does it feel a bit crazy to you? The fan forum was incredible. I've never seen that before. We've done a few of them. That's the most extreme it's got. I'm pleased the world is resonating with who I am as an individual and a person. That makes me very happy. I love this business.

55:14I love what I'm doing with Williams and I love the job. And this comes as a part of it. It's a different part of it. It's not one that I signed up to necessarily. It's not why I'm doing this job. I'm doing this job to make fast racing cars. What I really enjoy is today, for example, there's probably about 5 ,000 people in that room shouting and screaming to a level where I still slightly lost my hearing now. And they're on the journey with us. And that makes me so, so proud that we've managed to turn it around. But the way I see it is just myself and Williams are interchangeable in that. They're supporting us growing as a team.

55:45Do you feel a responsibility, though? Oh, without question. Yeah, 100%. But to the fans, not only a responsibility as TP. Yeah, no, 100 % to the fans. Some of them have followed us in the darkest of times when you're barely scoring a point. Some of us are new fans to who we are. Some of us followed from Ferrari to Williams. So you sort of get a mix between a red and a blue as they're going through the transition at the moment. But irrespective to all of that, we're an independent company. That's what Williams is. I don't sell fizzy drinks. I don't sell road cars. We're here because we're here to go racing.

56:16And we're here to go racing because we have a fan base that supports us behind it. So I have a responsibility towards them because ultimately there are customers in that regard. James, what a brilliant chat. Thank you so much for your time. Look, final one. And this is the question I'm asking everybody on the pod this year. Formula One is 75 years old this year. Do you have a favorite moment in those 75 years that you can share with us? It doesn't have to be your career. It can be anything. There's quite a few. The images of Senna on board at Monaco, they're sort of engraved in my mind. Manual gear changes, proper inches.

56:53When did you first fall in love with Formula One? It's hard to say because I remember different parts of it. I remember very much the sort of 92 era. I remember 94 with sadness, unfortunately. And this isn't just attributed to Williams, but Williams was the team I followed when I was much, much younger. I used to sit on the sofa with someone who is really like a brother to me, but we're not blood brothers. We both went through something together and he supported Ferrari. So you can sort of see the iconic times, including 96s and 97s, where we might have had a dispute. But Williams was the team I followed, which is to a certain extent why I mentioned the standard that wasn't in Williams.

57:34But I remember the Nantzl times, I remember the Damon times, I remember the Jacques times, I remember those sort of championships. So you're sort of into the early 90s through to the late 90s. I'm not sure I fell in love with it. I watched the sport and thought, this is brilliant. But for transparency, I watched MotoGP as well with Valentino winning races. I was sort of a little bit between those two sports. And you are a biker. And I'm a biker. And that goes with it as well. You understand that. I think truly it was probably towards the mid to late 90s where I really connected with the sport, where I connected with the fact that I've always been highly competitive all my life.

58:08I've always been seeking to be surrounded by those that are incredibly intelligent, pushing themselves every day. And I started to see a reflection of myself in Formula One. But I never realized or thought it would be a professional career for me. I just enjoyed what it was. So answering your question, probably in that time period. Well, I've seen you on a paddle court. You are competitive. Very competitive, yeah. We had a really good paddle game here with Frankie, who's one of the GB players. But I'm sad to say we lost our game. I don't believe it. Sad times. James, great chat. Thank you so much for your time.

58:42Thank you. Appreciate it.

58:49Williams was James's team all along. I knew it. And how brilliant that he's now leading the charge as it vies to get back to the front of the grid. Now, I took a lot from this conversation, and I hope you did too. James's understanding of what it takes to win in Formula 1 is my take-home message. What he's learned from his previous teams in Formula 1, from his previous experiences in business and with previous drivers, is now all being used to rebuild Williams. It'll be exciting to see what the team can achieve when the new regs hit in 2026. And if they can score a podium on merit this year, as Carlos did in Baku, then who knows how high they can climb next season.

59:33James, many thanks for your time. It was great to chat as ever and good luck with everything. If you want more from Williams, Alex Albon joined me on the podcast a few months ago. Just scroll down the feed to find that. And I will, of course, be back next week with another great guest from the world of Formula One. Until then, thanks very much for listening. F1 Beyond the Grid is produced by Formula One and Audioboom Studios. Until next time, keep it flat out.

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