LEGENDS: David Coulthard on finding the best seat in F1

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0:56Timing is crucial in Formula One. Being in the right place at the right time can decide a driver's destiny. There's no question that the racing gods or a bit of racing luck is needed. But should we be surprised that people who are training for that moment are therefore able to deliver when the opportunity comes along? And I think that's the key thing. Someone who's really committed will do whatever it takes to get in the best car. That's what I truly believe. But some things are beyond a driver's control. I was committed to staying with the fastest car, but Frank changed his mind and then changed his mind again.

1:33I was racing for Williams, but I was sitting on the side of the McLaren lawyers. The whole thing was totally unnecessary.

1:48Hello and welcome to F1 Beyond the Grid with me, Tom Clarkson. I'm intrigued by the driver market at the moment and which domino will fall first to trigger a frenzy. It's led me to think more about how drivers get themselves into the best seats to ensure they have everything they need to be successful. And while David Coulthard never won a world title, his 13 wins, 12 poles and 62 podiums proved that he was often fighting at the front. So how did he make his way into those faster cars? From driving for Williams after the death of Ayrton Senna to an astonishing legal battle that saw him leave for McLaren, and then joining Red Bull as a player manager nine years later, David tells the stories that shaped his Formula One career.

2:35It's really interesting to hear DC's attitude and approach to success, including the way he dealt with the big-name team bosses like Ron Dennis and how he tried to use the media to his advantage.

2:55DC, how are you? I'm good, I'm good, thanks. I think I'm probably in slightly better shape than you because I've not just run a marathon. So have you got blisters and cramps and all sorts of side effects? Difficult to walk, I have to say. But I've got the bug, actually. Marathon running is where it's at. And I think I can say the same for Sebastian Vettel probably as well. Very impressive what he did. And should we be surprised, though, because he's still a young man. he's got all of the sort of competitive genes that understands focus, discipline, preparation and then of course through to the execution so maybe this has become his next bug he's going to be aiming for what would be an impressive amateur time because he did under three hours he did under three there's a stack of people I think that get to about 2.30 but he'll now be thinking I can do 2.30 we're not here to talk about marathons by the way but his ability to absorb information, he treated it like a Grand Prix actually, the marathon in terms of his preparation and I learnt a lot about him and about preparation really.

4:00But DC, follow up we're talking about a racing driver in him because you are someone who has lived and worked in Formula 1 for more than 30 years. Very few people know this paddock better than you and I wanted to discuss how drivers get themselves into the right place at the right time. You know, when you look at a Max Verstappen, it looks easy, but there are a lot of very talented drivers who never get there. How difficult is it? It's incredibly difficult. There's no question that the racing gods or a bit of racing luck is needed. You're being in the right place at the right time, available with the right preparation.

4:39But should we be surprised that people who are prepped, people that are training for that moment, are therefore able to deliver when the opportunity comes along. And I think that's the key thing. If you look at the current grid, we go back to when Carlos Sainz was at Ferrari. He has appendicitis, gets pulled out of the car, and suddenly with no prior understanding that he was about to make his Grand Prix debut, you have Oliver Behrman jump in the car and go out and deliver. And then suddenly that cements very strongly the foundations of what I'm sure will be a long career. all the rumors are that he will be at Ferrari in the future the thing that stands in the way of him is well if Lewis has a great year then he'll probably want to go again for another year unless Charles is out of contract and decides to go somewhere else which is possible but seems unlikely then he's maybe going to have to be a little bit patient like we saw with George Russell who probably stayed a bit longer at Williams than he would have liked but there was no room at the inn within Mercedes so timing is definitely a key part but being prepped and making sure that either yourself and I always believe that it's important to put yourself forward you can have a manager but at the end of the day they're not signing the manager they're signing you so have the confidence to put yourself in front of the various decision makers How important was a manager?

6:06because famously Gahar Berger says I didn't want a manager because I wanted to keep all of the money for myself Well, you did variously, you know, IMG, huge agency behind you. Then you worked with Martin Brundle. What did a manager do for you that you couldn't have done yourself? So I got introduced to IMG, which were, as you say, a big management agency of that era. They were working with Senna, Pross, Schumacher on some of his business. And it was through Paul Stewart Racing, Jackie Stewart's son's team, that they had a relationship with IMG for many years. Jackie had been managed by Mark McCormick, who's no longer with us.

6:42So it, I guess, was part of them speculatively having some young drivers, which was, I guess, at the beginning of that curve. There's lots of management companies out there now that are managing kids and karting, offering them the dream. As long as you pay us some money, we will offer you the dream of future stardom. And it's a trading business that they're hoping that one of them comes through and proves to be successful. but I started into Formula One with IMG which I don't really feel that they put me in a place to become a Grand Prix driver because I'd been testing for Williams anyway I tested in 1991, 92, 93 and in the beginning I wasn't paid to test I was just called up to go and do aero running and things like that so it was let's say a pretty low level relationship and then it became more formal and then what happened in Imola which no one could have predicted happened.

7:37And even then, you couldn't lobby Williams to put you in the car. And I actually remember saying to my manager, Tim Wright, at the time, after the weekend of Emela, saying, we don't speak, we don't call Frank or Patrick, the team know me, I've been testing for a few years, we're not going to be those people that are going, well, one of your drivers is no longer with us, we have a driver for you. And I felt very strongly that wasn't the thing to do, and I know that a number of drivers of course did reach out to the team or managers had reached out to the team going hey you need a driver I think the approach was the right way so eventually the team once the emotion was understood and they got on with the business of going Grand Prix racing they decided to put me in the car for a single race that was it I had to prove in that single race that I could be a servant to the team and then that led to me sharing the car with Nigel Mansell over the course of, I did eight Grand Prix's in 94 which then led to the full-time drive and what I believe took me to being a full-time Grand Prix driver from 95 onwards was my commitment.

8:45I was there at the factory, I was with the team, I was living close by and I think Nigel as an experienced former Grand Prix champion, he was sort of flying in from America, he'd come and do the race, he'd buzz out again. And, you know, he was in that routine of, well, you know what I can do, so I'm not going to stay around and sort of, you know, spend time with the team. But I think that's exactly what Williams needed at that time, through the emotion and the difficulty of 94, which was traumatic. Roland Ratzenberger, of course, and then with Ayrton. I think the team needed a reset of sort of family commitment rather than just, you know, high-end, high performers coming in.

9:25It seemed that you own that relationship with Williams. So what was IMG doing for you then at the time?

9:35Well, sorry to sort of hesitate. Difficult, of course, always to see what people are doing. Andrew Hampel was one of the senior people. Ian Todd, who went on to work with Nike. Tim Wright was my designated manager. He was keeping Formula One teams across my results in Formula 3000. I remember Patrick Head saying to him, look, can you stop sending letters? Which is what people did back then. Nowadays, it would be an email. So they were, I guess, lobbying the name and doing that kind of managerial side, but very difficult to sell or to find sponsorship for a young driver. So they weren't really doing that.

10:11They were, I guess, just, I remember him, Tim saying to Ron Dennis, you know, it would be really nice if you gave David a watch. And I remember Ron going, well, why would I want to give David a watch? I was a Formula 3000 driver. And he's going, well, because then he'll really feel connected to you. And he's going, I run McLaren. He'll feel connected to me whether I do that or not. So there was probably some missteps in that process. But what was a sort of low point in that relationship, through the relations they had with Ayrton and Alain, they had a Shoei contract, both the drivers at that time.

10:47And they'd managed to leverage a helmet for me when I was in Formula 3 out of Shoei. and they brought that helmet to Brands Hatch when I was testing and they took it out of the cover. And my helmet, as you will well remember, is a white cross on a blue helmet, blue background. It's a Scottish flag. It's called the Saltar. They took the helmet out. It was a blue cross on a white background. And I think that might be the Finnish flag or something. But they just... They say that's really bad. They just didn't get the importance of the crash helmet. You know, helmets, as you know, are the most personal thing that the race driver has.

11:21and it's something that we really connect with. So when I ended up racing for Williams in 95 through into 96, I actually then wrote to Mark McCormick, had a multi-year contract asking to come out of the contract because I just felt that I wanted something more racing-centric. I wanted something more personal to Formula One. I don't doubt that IMG, like all of these other big companies, would be commercially very good because that's the space they live in. But I was never, the money was never the motivation for me. It was what is the best car that I can be in? What is the best environment I can be in?

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13:02End of 95 You're in a Williams You've just won your first Grand Prix at the Portuguese Grand Prix and McLaren were having a torrid time, right? They'd just switched to Mercedes engines and 95 was a real low point for them So if you're trying to get yourself in the best car, why walk away from the best car? Yeah, absolutely. That's a good question. But we have to take a step back to 94. So numbers wise, 1994, I did eight races. So I was a test driver. I had a test driver contract for Williams and I was being paid 30 ,000 pounds. A reasonable amount of money in 1994, certainly probably better than, you know, people with a higher education were probably earning at that time.

13:42And then I did the eight races where I was paid£5 ,000 a race, right? And so at the end of that year, I had been paid£70 ,000 to be a Grand Prix driver. What was Mansell getting per race? A million per race. Did you know that at the time? Of course, I heard the rumours and what have you. But anyway, again, I was never once was I complaining about money, but I did have a conversation with Frank at the Canadian Grand Prix in 1994, which is where I scored my first points because the withholding tax agreement with Canada was a flat rate of 10 ,000 Canadian dollars for every driver. So whether you were Nigel or Ayrton or Schumacher or a young guy like me doing my second Grand Prix, you were obliged to pay 10 ,000 Canadian dollars as a withholding tax.

14:30Well, I was only earning 5 ,000 pounds, which was less than 10 ,000 Canadian dollars. So I went to Frank and said, you know, Mr. Williams, could you please help me with the tax? because otherwise I'm basically, I'm paying to be here at the Grand Prix. And he thought about it and went, no. So I effectively paid to score my first points, which is not unusual to have paying drivers in Formula One. You just don't associate that with Williams. So it's fair to say it was a little bit hand to mouth. I was still living, sharing a house, a rented house in Milton Keynes with some mechanics. You see, please tell me that Frank was paying your expenses.

15:06Yes, the flight in the hotel was paid. Yeah, absolutely. So by the end of that first year, and bear in mind, I had an overdraft debt of£320 ,000, which had been run up to race in Formula 3000. So at the end of that year, that£70 ,000, 10 % of that would be going to the management. Some of it would be going to my, let's say, life expenses. And a little bit would be going to drawing down that£320 ,000 that I owed, which was secured against the family transport business. so we get to the end of the year 94 we've agreed so my management have agreed a two year contract 95-96 to Dr. Williams we go at the end of 1994 December to sign that contract and as the lawyers getting the paperwork out so you see I was signing into the end of 96 Frank goes I've changed my mind I want to do a one year contract so the lawyers go okay so we've got to scribble out 90-96 I take some time out with my manager to go into another office and we call Ron Dennis because Ron had approached us in 94 already to look at whether we were available to join McLaren and we said we're going to re-sign with Williams so we phone Ron and Ron says come to the factory, I'll sign a contract with you for 96 now so we sign for 95 to drive for Williams we go to Woking, we sign a contract for 96, 97 at McLaren, and I then drive up to Scotland to spend Christmas with my mum and dad.

16:44And I remember telling my parents, I'm going to be a Formula One driver for the next three years. And they were like, oh, that's lovely. And I said, it'll be one year with Williams and two years with McLaren. And of course, they were like, how does that work? Well, it works because people change their mind. And then halfway through 95, Frank decides that he wants me for 96. and we're like, we're not available. And then he tries to use the contract recognition board to enforce the test driver contract, which was a multi-year contract that ran through until I think 98. And so this hopefully is not too confusing for the listener, but we had to go to the lawyer's office in Geneva, which is where all of the Formula One drivers contracts are lodged at the contract recognition board.

17:30And I was racing for Williams, but I was sitting on the side of the McLaren lawyers and Martin Whitmarsh who worked with Ron Dennis whilst the lawyers of the contract recognition board looked at the paperwork that Williams had, looked at the paperwork that McLaren had and decided that actually McLaren's contract was valid and that I would drive for them in 96, 97. I then went to the airport and flew with Frank who was in the meeting to the next Grand Prix. The whole thing was totally unnecessary. Yeah, absolutely. Totally unnecessary if Frank had signed ultimately the contract that we'd agreed at the end of 94.

18:04So I finished that year with Williams and then the 1995 Adelaide, I'd been leading the Grand Prix, crashed out as you recall, that cost half a million pounds win bonus at Williams and it cost me$2 million over my McLaren 96, 97. So it was expensive crash. And I went to dinner that night with Ron Dennis and his ex-wife and I'm sitting there on my own going okay right so I'm now a McLaren driver so that's how that came about that's you didn't walk away from the fastest car you'd committed to McLaren before yeah absolutely and I was committed to staying with the fastest car but Frank changed his mind and then changed his mind again was it an emotional decision to ring McLaren that day that Frank sort of reneged on the original deal yeah I was I was understandably disappointed that I'm they are ready to sign a proper contract for two years with a team that I've been racing for and they changed their mind and I think the reason they changed their mind was because Damon Hill was his lawyer was really pushing on trying to get Damon a big contract and Frank probably just got to the point where he was going well drivers are pissing me off so I'll put them both in a one-year contract but the risk to him was he would lose me and he did the risk to me was I went to a less competitive McLaren for 96 I think did Damon win 96 and Jack won 97 but then 98 McLaren came good so was that hard for you did you look over your shoulder a bit and go that could have been me?

19:38I went from leading the last race of 95 in Adelaide and then 4 months later I'm sitting I think 14th on the grid in Melbourne and at that point the penny dropped just what the difference in performance was and so i do recall not that i made the move for money i moved i made the move for security of contract but i do remember at that point thinking i will i will never make a move ever again based on let's say security or financial it will always be only about performance and you can never know one year to the next of course but you get trends of performance. So when you have big regulation change like we just had, it shakes everything up.

20:19But when you have year to year of stability, you do tend to see the same teams towards the front. What is a driver prepared to put up with in order to get in the best car? Well, Ayrton Senna famously told when he was at McLaren and Alan Pross was there in 93, he famously went in the media and said, I will drive for Williams for nothing. I'll drive for free. Because of course that suddenly makes people go oh well if we're not paying the driver x amount a million that's money that we can invest in the team so the engineers will like that the team owner will like that so i think someone who's really committed will do whatever it takes to get in the best car that's what i truly believe and i spent nine years with mclaren and at various times they had the best car and at various times it wasn't um the move to red bull was about unfinished business I knew it wasn't the best car, but I truly believed I could play a part in helping develop and structure that team towards being a winning team in the future, which turned out to be the case.

21:23The team did go on to be very successful. And that comes from an absolute belief that Formula One is always about people. It's always about people. If you've got the right group of people working together, it's not always about who's the biggest talent or who's got the biggest brain or the best degree. you've got to have people that have got a willingness to work together and to have each other's back. So for me, the most successful teams are a little bit like SAS or any form of special forces. No human gets left behind. They defend each other. And when you see teams break down, it's because you get little factions of, well, it's their fault, it's their fault.

22:01And that's when you no longer have a team. Having been in the sort of straight jacket of McLaren for nine years, did you enjoy the player-manager role? and that almost, was it liberating to go to Red Bull? It was in many ways the right environment at the right time in my life. I was into my 30s. I had Formula One experience and knowledge. I had life experience. And I think that's the key thing that we don't always take into account when we're talking about drivers. You know, Kimi Antonelli right now is leading the world championship. Brilliantly fast, young talent. He's still a boy. You cannot make a man out of someone that hasn't had life man experiences and you'll know as a parent and anyone else who's gone into the 30s, it doesn't make you quicker, but you're just more worldly.

22:50You're more capable of making decisions, of going, no, that doesn't work for me. That's how I'm going to get the best out of myself and having the confidence and the environment that you're working. So that's why I think you need to, you don't judge somebody on a couple of race wins. You judge somebody on, can they handle the pace of a Grand Prix season? can they do it back to back? We've seen brilliant drivers, you know, people like Heinz Harald Frensen, who could win in a Jordan. He won one race in a Williams, which was a race winning, championship winning car. But somehow when the pressure of expectation comes, some drivers don't deliver.

23:26And when they're in, let's say, away from that spotlight, they extract performance from a car that you go, wow, that's impressive. I always thought of Giancarlo Fisichella as another driver. Yeah, Fizzy. Montoya brilliantly fast doesn't give a shit attitude but came to McLaren replacing me spent a year and then he was on his way again because it just didn't work out so you know drivers like that that have got so much potential but somehow don't manage you know Daniel Ricciardo Daniel brilliantly fast racing driver but I think as he's now recognized and he's done an interview this year talking about he started to feel he was losing losing his his way towards the end of his career not because he was old but he got distracted he got distracted by what the world was offering him where the key focus always has to be stopwatch checker flag they're your two north stars in formula one how difficult is it to maintain that focus as you get richer as you get more famous absolutely it is difficult because you get used to people going yes you and i remember i went from test driver at Williams being told what to do to being a Grand Prix driver and the same people saying, David, would you mind?

24:40Could you please? And you start to go, hold on, I can say no. And you go, no, I don't want to do that. And they go, okay, no problem. Whereas when you're the test driver, you say no, they'll go, well, we'll get someone else to do it. Do you want to be the test driver? I never said no is the point. But when I, if I take that attitude of discovering what works for me within the Grand Prix paddock when I had the confidence to go, you know, that timing doesn't work. Can we move it? Because this will enable me to be better prepared. But yeah, for sure you end up becoming a bit spoiled. And around 30 years old, I was in Formula One for several years.

25:18I was earning millions. I had the plane crash on an aircraft that I didn't need to be on. The aircraft that I was normally using was booked, let's say, for two o 'clock. I woke up early in London. and I wanted to go back to Monaco. I got on the phone to my office, said, let's bring the plane earlier. And they were like, well, your aircraft isn't available. I said, find me another one. You know, it's ridiculous. They find me another one. I turn up, say hi to the pilots. An hour later, you know, the plane crashes, they're dead. And I'm going, ah, okay. So maybe being a little bit more patient, a little bit more humble, a little bit less, you know, me, me, me, could be a lifesaver.

25:57and you know that marked my moment of growing up and then the next few years were my strongest years in Formula One. I always thought you were very good at using the media. We had some great pre-season lunches at the Bluebird restaurant in London, didn't we? But perception is nine-tenths of the law in this paddock, isn't it? If enough people say something, whether it's true or not, people will start to believe it. How did you use the media as a driver? Well, I wanted to build personal relationships because my belief is that that gives you the benefit of the doubt more often. So I didn't have the attitude of, I don't want to talk to anyone and the media are the enemy.

26:41For me, it was, we all work and live within this world, this ecosystem of Formula One. I've got one of the best seats in the house as a driver. How do I do everything in my power to make sure that I'm getting the best car, best opportunity? fulfilling my talent and when things are not going so well which will happen how am i going to have the benefit of the doubt rather than immediately being blamed or it's a driver's fault how do you build relationships with the people that are influential and the media are influential they are the you know they are the voices of the sports um that carry the news around the world so yeah i always placed importance and what have you learned about the media now that you're working in it that you wish you'd known when you were racing i i wish i i just had the the wider knowledge and experience of how words can craft opinion and and how some members of the media will use use you to stimulate a story so it could be going to michael going oh david said that your driving's totally unacceptable because he's going to go, well, I don't give a shit about him.

27:55You know, he's just another guy that makes up the numbers. So they can create attention, which is part of their remit to get a reaction. If everything's all smashy and nicey, then you're not really going to get the human element of reaction. And some drivers are very, you know, Jack and Juan Pablo Montoya were always very much what you see is what you get. They had no problem to just blah, blah, blah. Where I was maybe a little bit more considered in my answers, a bit more diplomatic on occasions. But would you drop a bomb with a friendly journalist? If you're trying to put pressure on Ron Dennis to give you a few more quid or change something in your contract for the following year, might you go up to a journalist and say, I had a really interesting chat with Ferrari?

28:41Sure, absolutely. Did you do a bit of that? Even if you hadn't? I'm not a liar, Tom. I'm not a liar. but sharing information with key people is part of the game and you're telling something to a trusted journalist in confidence but you absolutely know that off the record has a boundary which you don't want that to be broken but you know that you can then have something that's going to little rumours build so yeah, it's part of the business of Formula One getting yourself in the seat is difficult enough staying there when everyone wants your seat if you're not having good performance it's the other driver manager's job to get in there and speak to the journalist going well David's not doing a good job you'd be much better putting Damon in the car or whatever it happens to be so that's part of the game everyone looks so sort of friendly and all the drivers get along but behind the scenes they want each other's seat they want to do whatever's necessary to get the best car on that note I think the paddock is more friendly now than it was in your day.

29:46Would you agree with that? I'm talking about between the drivers. Between the drivers. There was animosity between some of you guys. 100%. It's a lot friendlier, Formula One. And the paddock is a lot friendlier. And I think Red Bull brought that more openness when they started with the energy station and they started doing chilled Thursday nights where other team members could come to Red Bull's hospitality to have a coffee or have a drink at the end of work. And you could see it was, you know, people like Ron Dennis were like, well, hold on, I don't want our guys going in there. it was very territorial famously I've only ever been in Ferrari's motorhome twice in 30 years even now?