LEGENDS: When Emerson Fittipaldi shocked Formula 1

0:00This episode is sponsored by Honda. Since its first Formula One victory in the 1965 Mexico Grand Prix, Honda has always taken what's learned on the track and used it to build better cars for everyone. From pushing limits in F1 to engineering the next generation of hybrids like the Prelude Hybrid and Civic Sedan Hybrid, Honda proves that racing doesn't just inspire innovation, it drives it. And that idea of taking lessons from the racetrack and applying them to road cars has always been a part of Honda's DNA. Decades of engineering in the demanding world of Formula One have helped shape the performance and efficiency you see in Honda's road cars today.

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2:1850 years ago, Emerson Fittipaldi shocked the Formula One world by leaving McLaren just a year after becoming a two-time world champion. He didn't move to a rival or go and race in another series or retire. He created his own Formula One team. I knew that it would be a struggle because when you start a new Formula One team, normally you need four to five years to be competitive. normally. But as an athlete, you always have to have a new challenge. And that was a big challenge myself and my brother to go to our own team. I got everybody by surprise. It was an incredibly brave move and one that might never have happened given the crossroads he was at after winning his first title.

3:05When I won my first world championship, I had lunch with my father, myself and my brother. Nobody knows this. I look to my father, Samuel, retire from Formula One. And my father said, you retire from Formula One? I said, yes. I left Brazil. I had the dream to be a Grand Prix driver. I want the world championship. What else I want? And then my father gave me very good advice.

3:31Hello, everyone. Welcome to F1 Beyond the Grid with me, Tom Clarkson. I always enjoy chatting to Emerson Filippaldi because he's such a brilliant storyteller and his passion for Formula One still burns brightly. Half a century after he and his brother Wilson created the Kopersuka Formula One team, I wanted to take Emerson back to the defining moments of his career that led to that sensational chapter. The thoughts about retirement after his first title with Lotus and how his dad persuaded him to continue racing. His decision to leave Lotus for McLaren and the nail-biting final race title decider in 1974, which he and Clay Regazzoni went into level on points.

4:15And Emerson was crowned champion for a second time. All of those moments led him to set up Copasuca. Emo tells me why he took on such a big challenge, the various hurdles the team faced, and the intense criticism they received from the Brazilian press. It's a real joy to hear Emerson relive such a special career. The way he describes the tension of his final race showdown with Regazzoni is so gripping. And how much he relished the pressure and challenge of taking such big risks is really inspiring.

4:54Emo, it's wonderful to have you on the show again. How are you, first of all? Thank you, Tom. Always great. I'll be back in Miami because it's my home. and I live here since 1984 to have this Miami Grand Prix is fantastic. Certainly is. And we're going to talk about something that happened in Miami yesterday because you were reunited with your McLaren M23 as part of the team's 1 ,000 race celebrations. Was it like being reunited with an old friend? It was exactly the same. The cockpit, the steering wheel position, the pedals and then go back to that cockpit. I never believed that one day I would drive the M23 on the streets of Miami.

5:42And it was a fantastic feeling in all the great champions from the history of McLaren, the world champions, and it was an incredible event. Very good for commemoration of 1 ,000 Grand Prix. What does the car feel like? Is it still very tight? Does it feel as good as it did 50 years ago? It feels extremely good. another impressive thing, Tom, because it was only 550 kilos and we had over 400 horsepower. That means it was nearly one kilo per horsepower. I was spinning wheels and it accelerated so much that, you know, it was the relationship similar to Formula One car now. The weight power is very similar, very impressive acceleration, but there was no grip and a lot of spectators, Dictators public was an incredible event McLaren organized, Zac Brown, typical from Zac Brown.

6:36I asked the team, I said, did Emerson give it full beans? And they went, oh yeah. You were enjoying yourself, right? For sure. As part of the 1000 celebrations, can we talk a little bit about McLaren in the two years that you raced for them? What was the team like back then in 1974, 1975? I was very impressive when I went to choose McLaren because Philip Morris gave me the mission. Go to England and you talk to Kentiro and Bernie Eccleston, the Brabant, who was extremely competitive, teams and cars and McLaren. But when I walk in McLaren, I feel a lot of motivation. You know, the very young people, it was only like 30 people, the whole team, and Teddy Mayer, Alistair Cadwell, who was the team manager who was very much into, tried to win the world championship.

7:33McLaren was on the edge to come as one of the best teams and then I chose McLaren. Why did you leave Lotus and go to McLaren? Because you'd been so successful at Lotus. I had already five years with Colin. Colin was my mentor. I have a lot of gratitude for everything that Colin taught me. And the last year, 1973, I was teammate with Ronnie. And in Monza, I still had mathematical chance to win the world championship. And before the race, I had a meeting, myself, Ronnie, and Colin. And we say, if we are leading the race and the third guy is well behind, if I finish first, I still can go for the championship in Canada and the States.

8:21and Colin said, okay, 15 laps to go. I give a signed board and you guys change the position. And the signed board never come. And then I was chasing Ronnie on the limit to pass. Ronnie was defending himself because he didn't see the sign. I didn't see the sign. Then finish Ronnie first or second. I lost my chance to win the championship that year. Did you confront Colin about what had happened? Immediately after the race. What did he say? I'd say, ah, Colin. Colin said, ah, Emerson. Like, he didn't realize. And I say, Colin, I think I'm going to leave. And then he called me and he didn't want me to leave.

9:02He talked to my wife, tell Emerson to continue. But at that time was the time to move because it was since 1969, driving Lotus, 69, 70, 71, 72, five years. But it was a great relationship. Why do you think Colin didn't show the sign? Was Ronnie Peterson his guy? No. Did he see Ronnie as the future? I think Colin didn't want to change anything on the race. He let it finish like it was. I was very, very surprised. I had a very good relationship with Colin since I started. I have a lot of gratitude. I'm still a very good friend with Clive. And Hazel was, you know, after many years I went to Norwich to visit them.

9:49and they, you know, the Chapman family was very good to me, but it happened. Okay. It happened. So Monza 73 was the trigger point. Yes. What happened next? You have a meeting with Teddy Mayer, the guy running McLaren at the time. At that time, Philip Morris, I used to live in Lausanne. Philip Morris headquarters was Lausanne and they asked me to drive. I said, listen, we have to change team BRM. He's not doing well. Louis Stanley he's a great guy but the team was not doing well we must found a new team and they asked me to go to England and it was a very difficult decision when I went back to Lausanne I said McLaren they said but McLaren never won the world championship I said but should be and I was very happy that I chose McLaren Why did you have that belief in McLaren?

10:42What was it about the team that convinced you they could do it? Tom, they were very young people, very motivated, most of them from New Zealand. When you move from one continent to another continent to challenge your life, your commitment, is much stronger than the guy who lives in Italy, go to England. And I could feel the energy, the motivation, very young people. Alistair Cardo was a fantastic team manager. Teddy Mayer, very American, very logistically organized for the team. I feel McLean was very well organized, different from Lotus. Lotus had a great team manager, Peter War, at that time, but Teddy Mayer was more American way to organize a team and I feel more like everything should be better.

11:32He was a lawyer. He was a lawyer. He was a detail man. And he lost his brother, Tim Mayer, in Tasman series. And that's why he was very good friend of Bruce. And when Bruce went away, he took over the whole team. Ted was a very understanding about racing. People don't know, but 93, when I won my second Indy, he was my engineer. After so many years of pain. It's such a small world, this racing world. And then Roger say, Emerson, you're engineer, 93 beat Ted. I say, that's great. and we won Indianapolis. But that's, you know, the motor race community is so small, so close to each other. Now, the factory for McLaren back then was not in Woking.

12:19It was nothing like the MTC that we know today. You were in Colnbrook. What are your memories of the factory? Very small, very clean, very organized. I think it was about only 30 people. And it's amazing because they have the Indy program. they won 74 John Rutherford they have Canon and Formula One I mean we've only around 30 people it was amazing to see you know of these results they had in 1974 was amazing and I really enjoy every minute I was with McLaren it was really great this episode is sponsored by Vanta one thing a lot of growing companies discover pretty quickly is that winning new business isn't just about having a great product anymore.

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13:46No wonder over 10 ,000 companies from startups to large enterprises trust Vanta to help them prove security and build customer confidence. Get started at vanta.com slash grid. That's vanta.com slash grid. This episode is sponsored by Honda. Since its first Formula One victory in the 1965 Mexico Grand Prix, Honda has always taken what's learned on the track and used it to build better cars for everyone. From pushing limits in F1 to engineering the next generation of hybrids like the Prelude hybrid and Civic sedan hybrid, Honda proves that racing doesn't just inspire innovation, it drives it. And that idea of taking lessons from the racetrack and applying them to road cars has always been a part of Honda's DNA.

14:38Decades of engineering in the demanding world of Formula One have helped shape the performance and efficiency you see in Honda's road cars today. And now that same thinking is shaping the next generation of hybrids as well. Cars like the 2026 Prelude Hybrid and Civic Hybrid show that electrification can be both efficient and genuinely fun to drive. The 2026 Prelude Hybrid and Civic Sedan Hybrid are engineered for fun, from the racetrack to your driveway. Learn more about the Prelude and Civic and the latest innovations at Honda.com.

15:25Can we talk about 74 then, you know, the year you win the championship with McLaren? I mean, you win your home race at Interlagos for the second year in a row, actually. But describe the emotions of winning at home. You know, it's so special, Tom, because when you go race home, on your backyard, I started racing in Interlagos, in motorcycle when I was 14 years old and then going back there with the family, with the friends, being back in Terlago's home, Sao Paulo, tremendous pressure. And with McLaren, I had double pressure because many people say, why Emerson left Lotus? Now how good he's going to be with McLaren?

16:09People was questioned. Was it a good move? Was it not a good move? And McLaren was very good in Terlago. We got a good setup. we test during the winter with good year and we develop the car for Interlagos very bumpy track and McLaren always very fast on fast corners and if you remember the old Interlagos there was turn one two similar to Indianapolis and then you had up here on the lake and then turn of sun because it's very long term. And McLaren was always very impressive on fast corners. I remember when I was dicing with Jody Schechter the year before, he was always very fast in fast corners.

16:55Jody was, yeah. Jody, Jody Schechter was a very fast. You say the M23 was quick through fast corners. What were the other differences with the Lotus 72 in which you'd won the championship a couple of years earlier? Lotus 72 to me was the best car I ever drove in my career, all the cars I drove. The Lotus 72, all this year with Colin, we developed the car changing suspension, geometry, downforce, wings, but always incredible car to drive. I would come to the paddock, look to him, he looked to me, and we got together, it was the extension of my body. It was a fantastic car. And that was, you know, Colin was a genius.

17:40And he has intuition to set up a car. And I remember Colin would put the two fingers here. When I talk about the car, it comes as the right solution. It was amazing. Because there's no telemetry. It was just what I was feeling. Telling Colin and then Colin going to the point and improving the car. It was a fantastic car. Did you establish a bond like that with the people at McLaren? Yes, yes. After the first year, we had a very good relationship. Gordon Coppock was the chief engineer. He was extremely good, very dedicated. He did a fantastic car. I mean, the M23 was an incredible car. It was a more simple car, more conventional car than the Lotus.

18:28Lotus had like the torsion bars. It was difficult to work with the proper angle. We were all the time working, and McLaren was more a conventional car. But we had three wheelbases, a long wheelbase, we had the mid-wheelbase, and the short wheelbase for Monaco for the short circuits. And that was another good work for McLaren for logistic, and we changed the weight distribution, more percentage weight on the front for the short circuits. I mean, we had a lot of pre-race study from each track, more than Lotus would do, to adapt the M23 to different tracks, different characteristics for the whole year.

19:16And that was Alistair Caddo and Gordon, Gordon Copp. Which of those three wheelbase lengths did you enjoy driving the most? Well, the long wheelbase on fast corner was incredible. Like Woodcote, Silverstone was amazing, the car, the balance. In Monaco, I had the short wheelbase. Actually, I was very fast in 75 when Nicky won and I was second. I was catching Nicky, the Ferrari. I was much faster than Nicky, but I couldn't pass. but we always adapt the car to different track characteristics. That was an incredible job McLaren was doing. Okay, so in 74 you win the title by just three points from Clay Regazzoni.

20:04Tell us about the pressure of the whole season and what it felt like to get it over the line and to get that second title. You know, Tony, you work the whole year. You dedicate yourself, the whole team, up and down, break the engine, finish, get the points, we go to Watkins Glen, last race, equal points to creator Gazzoni with the Ferrari. And by coincidence, it was one of the first races that year that we couldn't make the car work properly. And then there was a tremendous tension on the team, myself. Only time, I only slept three hours before the race. Even Brazilian Grand Prix, the Indianapolis 500, I never had the problem sleeping well before the race.

20:47What was the issue? Just the pressure? That night, the pressure. The magnitude of the occasion. Yes. After the whole year of work, I go to the last race, Eco Points, and Clay started next to me. And then on the grid, you know, the McLaren boys, myself, we didn't want to look at the Ferrari. The Ferrari boys didn't want to look to us next to each other. And again, you know, Alistair Cade was brilliant because Ferrari was very fast in straight line. Typical Ferrari engine, always very powerful. And then in the morning, Alistair said, Emerson, if we run less rear wing on the beginning of the race with full load of fuel, the car can take less rear wing at that time.

21:30And we surprised Ferrari with the speed on the straight. And then in the morning, we tried much less rear wing. I was very fast in straight line. I said, that's perfect configuration. And I remember, you know, before the start, I'm sitting in the cockpit. I looked to Clay. I could see Clay looking to me, but we didn't face each other because I'm thinking in an hour and a half, he or me is going to be World Champ after the whole year. It was tremendous pressure. Did you like Clay? Did you have a good relationship with Clay? I had an extremely good relationship with Clay outside of the track. inside the track clay many times would take the physical space of your car that he didn't belong he was very aggressive very aggressive clay had many was not like to drive against jackie nicky lauda but clay i knew he was going to be tough before the race i knew he was going to be tough I was ready.

22:34So you ran less rear wing and it was fine when you were full of fuel at the start of the race. What was the car like later on? Well we knew after half of the race or half fuel was going to be more tricky to drive, more nervous but we were hoping that we could take advantage at the beginning of the race and surprise Ferrari, surprise Clay and was you know after I did a quite good It started, I was on the outside, Clay's on the inside line. He took turn one ahead of me. And then you go uphill, Watkins Glen, very fast asses into the straights. And as I'm finished, the fast ass into the straights, I was catching the Ferrari.

23:17And then I could see Clay, look in the mirror, both sides, you know. You never expect McLaren catching in a straight line. And then I slip streaming him. I went on the right side. He was in the middle of the straight, and he pushed me on the grass. And as he pushed me on the grass, I said, now he's doing and dying. I turned the Mach line against the Ferrari. Very aggressive. We nearly hit each other. He took the Ferrari because now they're going to crash in straight line. But I keep flat out. I didn't back off, and then I had the momentum on the Ferrari. And by the end of the straight, I was ahead of him.

23:55and then I'm thinking I'm not going to look in the mirror, I'm going to focus to see if I can open a gap to Klay. And I think he was caught by surprise and by the end of lap one I was already more than 100 metres ahead. I said now focus, focus and gone. And I was very upset because we could crash each other in a straight line. And it was fantastic to win the championship, a big commemoration of McLaren of everybody going crazy and I was going to talk to Clay and then I say well I'm going to talk to Clay thanks God I'm the new world champion he lost it and I won I cannot complain thank you God and did Clay ever wish you congratulations even if you didn't talk about that incident no he never that weekend no he's gone he's gone but it was amazing the very tough world the second world championship was difficult than the first one.

24:56Then we go into 75 of course the next year the car's not quite as competitive is it but can I talk to you now about what happened next in your career because you'd finished first second first second over the space of four seasons and you shock the Formula One world by joining the family business effectively wasn't it? The Fittipaldi Copasucca team Talk us through that decision for 1976, 50 years ago. Tom, if I, on a brief way, I talk to you what we've done in Brazil for you to understand people, understand our history. When I started racing karts, I built my own kart with my brother. We won the championship.

25:41Then we built our own Formula V to race and sell to other drivers to keep us racing. It was like a business. And then we built a prototype called 50 Porsche with a two-liter Porsche engine. It was the fastest car in Talagos. We broke the lap record by nine seconds as an on-build car. And then with Ricardo Divilla, we built a twin-engine Volkswagen, who was extremely fast. It was Dyson, Ford GT40, the Alfa Romeo P33 with a Beetle. And we always loved to build cars. We loved the mechanical part of develop. And at that time, you had what I call the racing package, the Corsair engine, Huland gearbox, that anybody could buy and make a nice chassis, a nice car, and build a Formula One car.

26:34And then myself and my brother, my brother was driving for Bernie in 1973. Then one day we were talking, say, why you don't make a Brazilian Formula One team? I say, well, it's a big challenge. It's for Brazil to be fantastic to have a Brazilian team. And then my brother started, Ricardo Divila, who was a very good Brazilian engineer, very young, very talented. He speaks perfect English, very intelligent. And we started the team. And then after one year, Embraer, the airplane company, helped us to develop on the wind tunnel at the factory for Embraer. we developed the new car that was laying down too much my brother couldn't drive try to make very aerodynamic and we start the team and after one year i was going to go again with mclaren i say i won red twice the world championship what else i want in life that does make a new challenge and there was a big challenge myself and my brother to go to our own team I got everybody by surprise.

27:41Did you catch McLaren by surprise? Did you catch Philip Morris by surprise? Was, because I was about to sign the contract at the end of the year. And then I went to Teddy and said, Teddy, thank you for the opportunity, but I'm going to go to my own team with my brother to build our own car. And Teddy, ah, Emerson, you know, we were counting on you. And that's why it happened. they got James because at that time James was available. James Hunt, yes, who was a very good friend, incredible guy. Emo, did you know at the end of 75 when you signed for your own team and left McLaren, did you know that they were going to have a good car for 76?

28:27Did you know that you were walking away from a potential world championship? I knew it would be very difficult. I knew it would be a challenge. I knew that it would be a struggle because when you start a new Formula One team, normally you need four to five years to be competitive normally. And I knew it was going to be a struggle, but it was a challenge to me. You know, sometimes in life, like when I won my first world championship, I went back home to Switzerland and I had lunch with my father, myself, and my brother. Nobody knows this. and I look to my father, he said, I'm going to retire from Formula 1 after Monza.

29:07The next day, and my father said, you're retiring from Formula 1? I said, yes. What else do I want? I left Brazil. I had the dream to be a Grand Prix driver. I want the world championship. What else do I want? And then my father gave me very good advice. He said, the way you like racing, I know in one or two years or three years you'll be back in Formula 1, it'll be much difficult if you continue because there was a lot of crash. But as an athlete, you always have to have a new challenge. And then it was a challenge to continue with McLaren. The next challenge was to build our own team. Did you quite fancy the player-manager role, if you like, being the driver and the boss?

29:49Not really. I was given the idea mainly for the performance of the car. My brother's running, and they had a very good team manager, Joe Ramirez. the great jordan yeah who worked with center and prost at mclaren yes and joe was running the team we had a very difficult logistic problem because every time by example engine come from england we had to clear customs in brazil it's so complicated we waste so much time so much energy on on working between europe and brazil to build the car the whole car was built next to The Gate 7, Interlagos, still Gate 7 there. So the factory was at Interlagos? It's 100 meters from the gate, yes, yes.