Pedro de la Rosa: Aston’s ambition, Fernando’s future + McLaren memories

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1:03In Formula One, when you talk about not introducing any upgrade in the car engine up until mid-season, it is very risky for everyone. Did you risk losing Fernando Alonso? Whatever his decision will be, you know, you have to believe in a project, not if the car is quick on the next race. I think Fernando is so wise that it's either you believe in the project or you don't. Can you put a timeline on how long it'll take for Aston to get where you want to be? We've made a big step and we are now in a position we cannot stop. And we won't stop. Pedro De La Rosa picks up his first podium in Formula One.

1:47How seriously were you considered for 2007 by McLaren? In 2007, I was 100 % sure that it was Fernando Luiz. The problem came after 2007 when Fernando left. I really, really thought I was getting the drive alongside Luiz Hamilton.

2:11Welcome, everybody, to this week's F1 Beyond the Grid. And I'm delighted to say we are joined by Pedro de la Rosa. Pedro, how are you? very well Tom very nice to be here again well it's been six years since you were last on the pod yeah actually it's been a long time but uh it feels like it was yesterday to be honest you know it's just six years have gone by so fast I was not an Aston Martin team I was not here so yeah many things have happened but we're still smiling that's the main thing you came up with some great stories last time one of which was you being mistaken for damon hill when you were the jordan test driver has anything like that happened recently well since then i you know maybe it's because i'm getting older but i've been mistaken but by many other people the latest was i was mistaken by luis perez sala you know the spanish race driver i mean nothing against him a very good looking guy, but he's like quite older than me.

3:12But anyway, and then the other day I was in a traffic light in Barcelona and a guy next to me opened the window and he said, are you Carlos Sainz? And I said, father or the son? You know, I mean, I don't look like any of the Carlos, but anyway. So yeah, there's a lot of, I don't know why, but they mistake for any other Spanish sportsman i have been mistaken by a tennis player called carlos costa as well uh alessandro lecchio the other day you know which is uh anyway i had no idea it happened so much yeah no me yeah it's just a factor of getting older maybe you know that and no gray hairs yes absolutely and looking younger for young forever but i think that you know the most interesting thing now is that in spain sometimes i take a taxi in barcelona for example and i say i want to go to this plaza or whatever and the taxi driver just turns around and he recognizes my voice which is something that has never ever happened to me before either you know but because you do the tv yeah because i do the tv in spain for that zone and it is uh it's funny that the people you know that voice and ugly voice i have by the way with this spanish strong accent but the people recognize you by the voice i it never happened before but anyway i feel proud about it you know in a way yeah well look, there's lots of things I want to talk to you about on the pod.

4:35Can we start with Aston Martin? 2026 has been a tough season, hasn't it? How tough? Just how tough has this year been for the team? Wow, it's been a long, difficult, twisty road. You know, it's been difficult, mainly because we were not expecting to be where we started, you know, how far back we were. We were expecting to be a lot more competitive therefore it takes a while to actually digest the situation how far you are then you eventually look for solutions you look where you are what went wrong what we need to do better what had to be changed and when which and then the team came up with a plan which was obviously introducing a big upgrade on the chassis and together with honda as well on the engine but not not on a race by race basis it was just okay we're really far away there's a cost cap involved which also limits your movements and then with the team decided to make all these changes for hungary well for the summer around the summer break we really didn't know when they would be ready and and that's what we did you know i mean it was difficult because we were very very much in a place we were not expecting to be it's fair to say that we are not where we want to be either right now okay but back then it was difficult because when we first went to barcelona on the shakedown test we we realized the magnitude of of the difficulties we were facing you know it was i remember taking the car from barcelona circuit home arriving home and saying to my wife it's going to be a tough year you know and she said you're always so negative you know don't worry you know things will get better but i think we all knew you know that it was it was a huge challenge but it was uh it was a challenge that was extremely motivating in a way because we had the resources we had the people we we knew we could do it we we knew we could turn it around and we are now in that phase of uh you know of changing things improving the car improving the engine as well we've we've kept together tom which that is very important in a in formula one because normally in formula one when you take such a brave move to say okay we won't introduce any upgrades in the car no the engine until the summer break or around the summer break that is very challenging for everyone because you know every race you will be a bit slower relatively to your competitors and that is difficult.

7:11It's difficult on everyone in the team. It's difficult on the race team, on the factory, on our partners, fans and the drivers as well. I mean, you know, because you know, you just have to keep pushing as much as you can, keep learning, but you're not going to see the results. I mean, what gets said in the debrief after, let's say, qualifying at Spa where Fernando in Q1 was 4.2 seconds slower than Lando Norris who set the fastest time? What gets said at that moment? Well, I mean, I was not at that race. I must say in Spa, but it doesn't really matter if it's Spa or if it was, you know, Silverstone or it was the Spanish Grand Prix in Barcelona.

7:50You know, all the Grand Prix's had a common denominator is that we were very far away. And it doesn't really matter if you're 4, 4.2 or 3.8 or 3.5. You know, it doesn't really matter. It's circuit specific. We were very, very far away. I mean, the debriefs were very long, I must say. It was not that because we were far away, the debriefs were easier or people were not taking care of the small details. It's just that it was at the very beginning, I remember when listening to some debriefs, it was like, wow, we are paying attention to little, you know, diff maps or engine braking maps, migration and the braking, stuff like that, that you think, wow, it's just minuscule.

8:33It is so small how you can affect the car balance and the lap time doing those changes. And we're not talking about milliseconds here. We're talking about seconds. But we kept chipping in all those areas. And I think that's the key is that we can still be four seconds off, but there's things to improve and try to be 3.9. You know, keep the motivation there. And that was the key. The debris were hard, were strong, were deep, and everyone was working in their own department as hard as we could because, you know, we were not going to find four seconds changing a diff map, you know. But we knew that when the car would be competitive, that would make the difference.

9:12And that's in our face we are right now. Was everyone aligned on the decision to leave it until around the summer break to bring an upgrade? I didn't hear anyone at all saying, we, this is risky, or maybe we should, we should, you know, try to make incremental improvements during the races. Before that, none. I think that this was key in actually getting everyone on board and following a plan, you know, and that, that was, was key. knowing that it was difficult because in Formula One when you talk about like you know not introducing any upgrade in the car engine up until mid-season let's say it is very risky for everyone because it is very difficult to keep the motivation of the whole team it's very difficult to actually just keep the team united in a way and I've been in other teams in other Formula One teams I remember in Ferrari for example that I remember in 2014 that when Stefano Dominicali left, Marco Mattiacci arrived, and everyone was telling Marco, we just have to think about 2015.

10:21I mean, this car, the engine is not good enough. We just have to think about next year. And actually, he took the right decision, but because he didn't really have a lot of experience in Formula 1. It's just, yeah, we stopped the development now in May 2014, and we focus on the car in 2015. The result was that the car in 2015 was a lot better and Ferrari had one of the best seasons. But Marco was not there because he lost his job in the interim. And this is the, you know, when you talk about half a season, one season ahead, in Formula One it's 10 years in a normal business. So it is wise to do that.

10:57That's what you need to do to win. But in the meantime, it's very autodestructive in a way. There's collateral damage, isn't there? what you did here at Aston Martin, did the summer break philosophy, did you risk losing Fernando Alonso? Well, I think that decision was never based about if we lost anyone or anything, you know? No, but just the lack of progress. Might Fernando have said, I've had enough of this? I think that Fernando, I mean, whatever his decision will be, it's just, you know, you have to believe in a project, you know, not if the car is quick on the next race. and one thing that we've all learned very much and I personally have learned a lot about Formula One is that as drivers and I still believe I'm a driver although I'm not racing but I still sometimes think like a race driver is that we we need to think long term you cannot think in a two week span time you know like in the next Grand Prix next Grand Prix we are designed to think about the next Grand Prix and and this is the biggest difference between businessmen and race drivers is that businessmen think about five, 10 years along the line, you know, along the time.

12:06And I think Fernando is so wise, he's learned so much that he's, it's either you believe in the project or you don't. It's not whether we managed to improve the car, you know, for the summer break as we were expecting. It is clear. But anyway, this is Formula One. And I'm guessing he had one of the biggest smiles when he drove the updated car at Budapest, right? I think we all had. I would lie if I said I was not very nervous because you are expecting, you are hoping, you've been waiting a long time and then the car just starts. You know, you always think, wow, I looked at the car and the side pods were so small.

12:48The radiators look the smallest I've ever seen in my life. And I thought, I mean, OK, the error numbers are promising, but, you know, maybe the cooling is not enough, you know. Or you start thinking about many other scenarios where I've been, because I've been in most of the most unwanted scenarios and I've won. But everything worked as planned, you know. And then after the, I would say after the installation lab, you looked around and the people were relieved because everything was working as expected. And it was, I mean, we can say there were a lot of new parts in the car, you know. I mean, with Fernando, I know him so much that we look at the eyes, you know.

13:24I always try to be at the front of the car when he comes in after a run. He looks at me. I look at him. And I know exactly what he's thinking. You know, I don't even need to listen to the radio. And, you know, his eyes look like, yes, it's working. Sometimes we've had upgrades in the past. And, you know, and I look at him and he immediately doesn't want to look at my eyes. You know, when he tries to refuse, keep the eye contact. And I know we are in trouble. but that time he looked and he was just like yeah it's it's it's there it's there and that was really it was a very exciting moment you know you know you always have to focus on things you can change you can do you can improve and that was okay not where we wanted to be i repeat again but it was it was one of the best moments we've had so far this season this episode is sponsored by Shopify.

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15:45you've known as you say Fernando a long time he's now done what is it 440 Grand Prix he's 45 years old I remember being at Silverstone back in 2002 in your Jaguar days and Fernando was the test driver at the time for Renault but he came and did a test for Jaguar alongside you do do you see the same Fernando Alonso today that was in that Jag in 2002? Yeah. I mean, absolutely. Absolutely. I remember well that test because it was a very weird test that we went through because suddenly Fernando was there testing our car and it was a deal between Nicky and Flavio to see really how quick our car is.

16:30And I remember I didn't know much about Fernando. everyone said he was super fast but i hadn't seen it myself and when he jumped into the car i could immediately say wow this guy is mega mega but anyway it was uh it was good for us because it just proved that the car was nowhere it was not that eddie irvine was a bad driver it was not that i was a bad driver it was just the car wasn't drivable fernando complained about a lot of things of that car that we had been complaining during the year one of them was the steering wheel the front geometry i mean things that are not only error related and uh i mean the only thing i would say is that it was incredible that fernando within a few laps gave exactly the same feedback without knowing about that car than we had been complaining for over six months you know so that just gave you the indication how good the guy was feedback was very thorough very accurate very precise and and and the car was just just not good enough yeah but but what about today fast forward same same he's just the same i mean what has changed in fernando is that he's his english is so much better but because i've always spoken with him in spanish i don't see that difference i understand what the people you know how he comes across it's it's in a better way because he explains the details he expressed himself so much better than he what he used to in English back in the early 2000s.

17:56But in Spanish, he's the same. He's the same Fernando, same expression, same language, same everything. I think he's just very precise. But what I really like about him is that he gives priorities. He's very good giving priorities to the team as to where the team needs to focus first. And believe me, in a cost-cap environment, having a driver that gives priorities and knows what the teams should focus on straight away is very important. You don't have time, you don't have resources. And now with the spring weekends as well, you just need to get the team working on what is more lap time relevant.

18:33So he's a leader. He's a true leader, yes. But he was back then. Don't get me wrong. I mean, I just want to... He's more experienced. He has developed. His language is better. But his level of feedback, speed, it's the same. Speed is the same in H45? Yeah, definitely raw speed is the same. Maybe today he obviously understands a lot more and he's learned a lot about the tires, you know, keeping a tire in the proper tire window. And this is all data and information that we didn't have in the past. In the past, you didn't have to manage tires, tire temperatures. you just went out there, push as hard as you could you would come into the garage and the engineer would tell you come quickly, quick, as quick as you can so that we can check the tyre temperatures and pressures so that they are accurate nowadays you come as low as you want because they have dynamic tyre pressures and temperatures, even the driver can check corner to corner so we have learned all a lot about where to keep the tyres and how to maximise the tyre grip through that which back then was not existing.

19:41So this new generation of race drivers, they are a lot more data sensitive. They learned how to read data, how to optimize their driving style, thanks to data, thanks to the GPS. We can compare ourselves not to only our teammate, but we can compare in real time nearly to what other teams are doing. So you know exactly where Verstappen is breaking into turn one. And why you are slower in the high speed than the Red Bull because they are in a different gear ratio or whatever. You know, it's just we have so much data and data makes you faster. The best drivers out there don't like data because actually, you know, data is telling their secrets.

20:24But all the rest, you know, if you take two or three drivers, they love data because they make them faster earlier. Would you like to reduce the amount of data in Formula One? Yeah. I mean, I think that to an extent, yes. To an extent, yes. I think tire data should be kept secret, basically. Or, you know, I mean, tire pressures, temperatures. I think this is a beautiful feeling of the driver, you know, with the tires and knowing when to push, how to warm them up, how to bring them up to temperature and pressure. But anyway, who cares what I think, you know? I mean, at the end of the day, it's technology and we cannot stop.

21:02You say Fernando is fundamentally the same driver when he's in the car and that he leads. Do you see any changes in him? Do you think he's more patient? I, from the outside looking in, see a more patient Fernando Alonso. Would you agree? Yes. Yes. In a way, yes. I agree on that. He wanted everything yesterday back in the day, whereas now maybe it's because he believes in the project, but he is prepared to wait. Yeah, it's fair to say that. But anyway, a lot of things have changed since, you know, I mean, one of them is he's two times world champion. And in a way as well, when you are a world champion, you see things in a different way, probably, you know, fatherhood, who knows.

21:44But I think the bottom line is that he's very happy in this team. He realizes that this is a future project, not only driving, but outside driving, you know, he's really welcome to stay here as long as he wants. and I think that makes your whole approach being very different and it is beautiful to watch as well how he works with the engineers, with the team trying to make everything better with a big touch of leadership While we're talking drivers can we talk about Lance? I still think of him as that really young guy on the podium at Baku back in 2017 in the Williams and yet suddenly I have to sort of pinch myself and realize he's done 200 Grand Prix's now.

22:33He's a very experienced Grand Prix driver. What do you see as Lance's greatest qualities? Well, Lance is super fast. I mean, you know, I love to watch data because I'm data-driven and I like to see where, you know, one driver is faster than the other and Lance has many, many circuits in many corners that he's unbeatable. What kind of a corner is that? There's many, many types. It's not like you can say Lance is fast in high speed, Fernando. They're both very evenly matched. And I mean, Lance is extremely quick in all type of corners. It's just that sometimes he's had some mistakes in qualifying or little things that then eventually if you don't qualify up there, it just compromises the whole weekend.

23:24That's where he's missing. you know it's just sometimes putting everything together in quali but sometimes he gets it you know in quali and he out qualifies fernando which is like i mean we're talking about fernando alonso you know and in races his race space is impressive as well he's very very good managing tires you know and i think i think lance is a very underrated driver and when we improve the car and make it a bit more driver friendly which must say it's a very difficult car right now for many reasons not only car chassis but also i think on the on the engine is you know we have to make improvements on drivability whenever the car is driving properly he's as quick as fernando there's no question about that can we throw it forward then and look at the rest of 2026 you talk about drivability that seems to have been a buzzword what exactly are the issues here when it comes to drivability i mean drivability is a very complex issue i mean and i know that sometimes we are criticized by the fact that the drivability is like a very very generic issue that drivers complain about but actually in our case it has to be generic because there's many many areas in the The drivability of the engine, gearbox, downshifting, braking, stability that is affecting that.

24:48And that's why we call it drivability because we cannot say it's the drivability because of the engine or because of the chassis or because of the gearbox. It's everything working together. But if the car is not generating enough downforce, the drivability is also very bad, you know. So which was the case at the beginning of the year as well. So we're working on every little aspect of the engine, of the downshift, of the car, of the stability and the braking. And I think that's fair to say that we are making big progress, but we're still obviously not perfect. And you can hear on the radios, you know, the drivers that they're still not many times not happy.

25:25But you can hear drivers of any other team having issues this year. is you you need to downshift to a very low gear on the apexes to harvest more energy and we're having less downforce than last year so the cars are more unstable and it is not well formula one is never easy no but we are in that progress in that progression and how are you as a team viewing the rest of this year is this all about preparing for 27 or have you set yourself specific goals for the rest of 26? I think that we've made a huge step forward in Hungary and we introduced a different spec engine in Sandboard with Honda and now we have some small improvements coming and especially we're working on reducing the weight which we're still overweight and that's another area of clear performance gain so we're still not given up on 26 but obviously I mean 27 is a continuation more or less with small aero tweaks from 26 so it's just we are in a good trend we understand the regulations we have a good aero platform at the moment you know with this this upgrade and that's where we are building on for next year we've talked a lot about how the drivers have been dealing with the problems this year can I ask you about Adrian Newey now because you've known him a long time more than more than 20 years how's he dealt with the difficulties this year well i mean first of all i must say that working with adrian is is just fantastic okay and it's not that i worked with him at mclaren in 2003 four or five but it's not that i spent a lot of time with adrian okay don't get me wrong you know he was there he was a technical director when i was at mclaren but i've been witnessing his work more than having meetings with him or knowing how he works.

27:20But it's just a pleasure to, I mean, just to understand how he works. He's a true leader. And I would say people say he still draws the cars with a pencil and stuff like that. It's all just a waste of time, all this discussion about... The biggest quality he has is that he listens to the people and especially to the drivers. so while in modern Formula One you jump out of the car you have a debrief with your race engineer and he would be asking about the car balance you know in turn one, turn two and you have the feeling that when you're talking with your race engineers and not all race engineers are the same don't get me wrong if any race engineer just gets angry about these comments please apologies it's not about you but some are it's just that they look at you And while you are talking, they look at the data, their laptop, and they just keep looking at the laptop and your face, the laptop and your face, just trying to see if what your comments match the data.

28:24And I think they miss the whole point of debriefing with a driver. It's not about understanding his comments that match the data. It's asking them what the driver needs to go faster around the corners. This is the whole point of having a driver in the car because all the rest is taken care by data. You know, if it's understeer, if it's oversteer, if it's snap oversteer, you don't need the driver to repeat you all that. You need a driver to tell you what the hell he needs to go faster through each corner. And that's where Adrian is very good because I remember in McLaren, when I was in 2005, the third driver, I remember first time I go there in Australia, jump in the car, coming back to the garage, I jumped out.

29:06we have the first debrief ever I had with Adrian. And he, you know, I was explaining what was going on with the car. And he said, well, why can't you go any faster to turn one? You know, I was like, wow, I've never been asked this question before. You know, I mean, and then I said, well, just I go in, turn one, and then I turn the wheel and the car just won't have any more front grip. And then he said, how much angle do you put in the car in turn one? And I just positioned the hands in the steering. I said, to this degree, Adrian, I had no idea how many degrees was that. And he said, okay, that's around six above, six plus degrees.

29:44And he says, okay, and what is the problem with that? I said, I don't feel the front tire is working there. And he said, okay, because we have a problem in the wind tunnel that we cannot test the car in a six degree steering lock position. So whatever happens above six degrees is something that we don't know. So that's why I'm so interested in your comments. But I have a few ideas, he said. Okay, came back, you know, next race, he came up with some mods on the front wing. And actually the car was a lot less geosensitive, steer sensitive. And the 2005 car, the MP420, was the fastest car I've ever driven in my life.

30:21And actually it was the fastest of the field. But it was, you know, he listened to the driver, he understood your problems, and then what makes him special, he comes up with solutions. Because we can understand a problem, but never come up with a proper solution, you know so that's adrian and that's you know an example of how he works how he listens he takes notes he looks at the car he likes to come to the garage he looks at the flowbies he looks at the little details that sometimes engineers look but on a photograph you know he likes to watch them and touch the car and how it's assembled and it's great he's a great leader very pleased that he's in the team and I'm very happy always to learn about great masters and I believe Adrian is a great master not only for me but also for the young engineers that are in the team and want to work with him yeah well Fernando Alonso had said how much he wanted to work with Adrian Nui didn't he but Adrian's now 67 do you see the same fire the same hunger in him as you did 20 years ago i mean i haven't seen anything that suggests me that adrian is willing to back off and the fact that he joined aston martin uh formula one in the situation we were like you know new factory new wind tunnel new everything and he wants to embrace the challenge just tells me that the guy really i don't think he's a person that would stick to comfortable easy scenarios no i mean he He likes the challenges.

31:55And I remember last year where he just joined the team a few months ago. It was the British Grand Prix. And we had a factory visit with the press during the Saturday of the Grand Prix, the British Grand Prix. And we were there. I was with Spanish press explaining the team and, you know, all the new wind tunnel, blah, blah, blah. And then suddenly we were in the engineer's drawing office, you know, in front of there. There was no one there. By the way, it was 8 p.m. on a Saturday before the Grand Prix. And then suddenly a Spanish journalist said, is Adrian there? I can see someone. And actually it was Adrian Nui, you know, working still in his office on a Saturday late night, you know.

32:37And that's, you know, do you think that a 67-year-old person that has joined a new challenge would be working at that time? Adrian is. yeah he is the most competitive man certainly i've ever met i think more than any racing driver actually yeah i mean he's he's a yeah he's a he's a competitive guy he's he's someone that doesn't talk a lot but does a lot what do you make of him being the team principal here because i think a lot of commentators will say why is he not focusing on on the bit that he we all know he's so good at the technical bit why does he need the hassle that comes with being a team principal Well, I mean, first of all, I must say that team principal is a title.

33:24You know, it's not a job description. And Adrian has said it many times. We are fortunate in the team having Mike Crack as well, which is an experienced team principal, now chief track operations. But he's definitely, when Adrian is not at the racetrack, Mike acts like a team principal. So, you know, I think we have a very luxurious people, you know, I mean, situation where we have people working in different areas covering for when Adrian is not here. And other teams have different structures. You know, it's quite ambiguous now what the team principal job description really is. Now, in my time, you had the team principal that was taking all the decisions.

34:07But now you have the team principal and normally you also have a CEO on top of them, you know. So I think that we have a very good structure. And as long as Adrian feels comfortable and competitive, we're in good hands. And can you put a timeline on how long it'll take for Aston to get where you want to be? I mean, we are all in a business where you arrive always too late. But I think that we are in the upward trend. And I've said it in Australia back in this year, 26, when we started this. Yeah, we were nowhere. Yes. But all we need to do is improve and never stop improving. Obviously, our strategy was different.

34:51We didn't improve until the summer, but we've made a big step. And we are now in a position we cannot stop. It's just a race of time. The people have done a better job than us. That's why they're winning. We just have to slowly chip away all this difference. And that's where we are. where we are. Everyone has to feel accountable for the results. Everyone has to feel super motivated. We have an amazing partner in Honda that we've managed to survive very difficult times together. We can stop and we won't stop. We can do it. And it's just a matter of never stop the development path that we are in right now.