Perry McCarthy: driving for 90s non-starters Andrea Moda

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25:00Barry, you're very arty. We're sat in your house. There's a piano in the corner. I'm looking at art from you, from your children. That's quite an unusual background, if you like, for racing drivers. I mean, I can think of Elio DeAngelis, of course, who was a concert pianist. and actually Charles Leclerc, Lewis Hamilton both play the piano today. But it's an arty background as opposed to a sort of an Alonso-type character. It's very analytical, very mathematical in his approach. Do you think your arty background in any way played against you?

25:35Perry McCarthy:Yeah, but it also played for me. No, I get where you're going with that one, is that in debriefs, I could get quite bored fairly quickly. You know, for me, it's like, look, here's the problem. Here's what we need to look at. Concentrate on that. I remember having a row with Richard Lloyd once when I drove him in the World Championship for Porsche. And he was sitting down with a German driver called Manuel Reuter. And they spent about 25 minutes talking about a two mil front packer on the left front spring. And I just, I got up, I said, I'm going, he said, sit down, where are you going? I said, I'm bored.

26:13Perry McCarthy:This is ridiculous. We're like five seconds off the pace. And you want to take an hour talking about a packer on the left front spring. This is stupid. I'm not doing it. I got fired from Lotus for the same kind of thing. Yeah, because I just went, this is absolutely a disgrace. You know, they started the engine when we went for a test and they'd left a Jubilee clip on top of the engine, which had then gone into a cam belt, which had taken it off, which dropped all the valves into the engine. And then they were trying to tell me that they'd been developing a damper that was five hundredths of a second faster across the lab.

26:47When they hadn't managed to develop the braking, cooling system for the brakes, they were setting the brakes on fire that meant we couldn't stop. And I just mouthed off and just went, why don't you look at the fact that we can't stop and we're setting light to the brakes, rather than wasting your time. Do you think, Perry, you were too lippy?

27:04Perry McCarthy:Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. But the problem is, is that I can't stand what I feel is inefficiency. I can't stand crap. And I'm really bad at taking it. So absolutely, I was not everybody's cup of tea because it was just stupid, absolute stupidity to me to be burning resources in an area where you could better profit from understanding what is needed. And I'm still like that today in business. Yeah. Where do we get the maximum returns fastest? That's probably the summary to all those stories. Let's talk about the F1 opportunities now. You test for footwork, footwork arrows. tell us how that opportunity came about first it was john wickham yeah who was the team manager yeah yeah i mean john wanted me as race driver so that was his way of trying to get me into the team to then be considered by really it was japanese owners at the time jackie oliver was running the team and i always had a great deal of respect for jackie actually on what he'd managed to pull together and especially being a hard nut ex-racing driver as well but yeah it was just anything to get me into these cars where I could be looked at, you know, but at the end of the day, it was great that John felt like that because he'd been very much on my side for quite a long time.

28:23This was his chance to get me in a car. But it didn't matter what I did, is

28:27Perry McCarthy:that it just didn't pass the acid test, you know, is that the Japanese owners wanted to stick with, it was Alex, I think, Kathy and, um, and Michele. Michele Albreto. Yeah. I mean, all day long, stay with Michele. No problem. You know, he's like, michaeli was great alex well i definitely think i had the edge on alex you know well tell us about the test and and the impact the car made on you and and the sort of job you think you did do you know i got there for the first ever test my first ever time in formula one and this is silverstone yeah you're right it was silverstone and all of a sudden i'd never met him before michaeli alberto come up to me and said hey barry welcome to formula one i tell you something you know this all this fight coming through, you're punching everybody's lights out and trying to survive and trying to get through and you end up being like a fairly hard nut to survive all the knocks and everything else.

29:20Perry McCarthy:And he said that to me, I could have burst out crying. It meant so much to me. Just thinking that was so generous of him to even come over because we'd never met before. And then I sat in the car. It felt like a glove. It felt as if this is where I should have always been i i remember going out from the pit lane and just blatting it immediately it just felt like it fit so this was what late 1991 or early 92 no before that this was 90 see see this is where america had been so important for me and i'll tell you something you know while we're talking about those those moments of being looked after or embracing or how important it is to try desperately to stand out on anything is that back home you had people like dave tremaine joe saywood tony dodgins these are all journalists all the journalists everything i did in america they were making a real meal out of it back in the uk they really were promoting the fact that i've set another pole i've led this race or just glatted away from the field there you know and it was just going guys thank you you know what you're doing here you know this is this is trying to still keep the energy going the thing that was against me tom was tick tock because i'm now from the time i went to the states i'm now 29 and so was damon actually damon's six months older than me or something like that so we're both on tick tock you know so it's going at this rate of progress i'm going to get into formula one but i'm going to be 62 by the time i get there you know so it was so having people who were generally perceived to know what they were talking about backing you up well it's great promotion but as i was saying before crikey it makes you feel vindicated you know you're kind of thinking i'm not just standing there barking at the moon going honestly i'm good you're thinking somebody else thinks that so look the race opportunity if we can call it that comes with andrea moda in 1992 tell us how that opportunity came about bizarre absolutely bizarre um what's happening is that i got to the end of 91 and even the little team that i was riding for in the states they couldn't run me anymore they busted themselves running me financially so there was no offer for 92 there was no offer from indycar for 92 because whoever was interested still needed some kind of sponsorship so again i'm on the sidelines again I'm waiting for God knows what, any opportunity whatsoever.

31:53And there was a call from Eddie Jordan's solicitor, a guy called Fred Rogers, lovely guy.

31:59Perry McCarthy:And Fred said, hello, Perry. He said, I've got a question for you. So I said, yeah. He said, how would you like to be a Formula One driver? So it took me about half a second to reply. I said, yeah, quite fancy that, Fred. Is that because you thought Jordan Grand Prix was in the offing? No, no, I didn't think that at all. It was just this question. And I just went, yeah, but I knew something was in the offing because Fred isn't going to call up and lead with that. So I said, yeah, he said, okay, I think we've got something for you. Can you make it over to see Duffy Shear down, who's heading up this new team called Andre Amoda?

32:31And I thought, wow, it sounds great, you know? So I went to see Duffy and he could see I was looking at him like a sabretooth tiger and he was a steak. You know, I was like, I was salivating at the time. I always remember Alan Jones saying something once. put a sheet of paper down and signed it and said to frank williams put whatever you want at the top you know and i kind of had the same thing just saying i don't care what it is just put me in the car and i want to do it i want to do it so that was it they signed me up but then we had all sorts of dramas about the super license because it transpired i actually hadn't done enough racing you know because i'd done these two seasons of formula 3000 okay i did stand out in all of those races but it wasn't enough to get me the super license which was required back then so there was a lot of argy-bargy about that and again it was pretty much the british press that came to my rescue but then it was bernie himself who then started making sure that everybody inside the commission voted for me and max uh mosley as well and you know so finally i got my super license together and that was it so so this is interlagos it's race three because the two drivers that started the season have been sacked.

33:47Yeah, you know why they were sacked?

33:51Perry McCarthy:It's because the team hadn't even run for those first two races. So the drivers had actually complained to the press about that. So the team fired them. And that's Alex Caffey and Enrico Patel. Enrico, yeah. So you're at Interlagos. And at what point in that weekend did you realize there was an issue with the super license? It was only the end of the first day. And it was Roland Brunsereider come up to me and said, Perry, what time are you leaving the circuit? And I kind of thought, you can't be that desperate for a dinner date, Roland. I said, why? So he said, I'm going to need your license. And I smelt a rat.

34:33Perry McCarthy:And I said, I haven't got it. He said, Perry, give me your license. I said, why? he said because we've been on the phones of Paris the FIA and we found that you haven't done enough racing the license was issued in error la de da de da so I had to give him the license back I borrowed the money to actually fly to Brazil and you know when I was there where I got I mean Ken Tyrrell came up to the garage and beckoned me out and just give me a big hug and said welcome to Formula One and I just went wow this is Ken saying that you know and this happened up and down the pit lane but ken was the first you know and so all that yeah elation and all these years and everything that that happened to get there and then this prat comes along towards my license i haven't even drawn yet you know give me a chance to smash the thing up or take somebody out before you take the license away but so that's also roland brincerider was fisa fia i felt sorry for Roland because I absolutely, he was only doing his job, but I absolutely launched at Roland.

35:36He got it left, right and centre, you know, because I was so upset. And did Bernie Eccleston help? Yeah, I went to see Bernie the following day. He said, sit down. He said, right, they've told me you're a fighter because obviously he'd forgotten he'd even met me and I wasn't going to bring it back up. I said, yes, Bernie. He said, right, bang, bang, bang.

35:54Perry McCarthy:So anyway, he said right senor what you need to do you need to go and speak to these representatives you need to you bring me ron dennis frank williams giancarlo minardi marco piccinini who was the lawyer at ferrari and um flavia flavia briatore he said they are all members of the f1 commission i'll vote for you max will vote for you i'll bring you the rest so i've gone right okay so that's my deal i'll go to see Ron I'll go see Frank I'll go see Giancarlo so most of them should be okay you know it's flab I didn't know that was it but this is good on his truth we got to the door and suddenly the doors open Bernie's gone oh and I can't remember the guy's name but let's let's call him Guido oh Guido Bernie's looked at me and he said Barry by chance this is Guido he's a member of the um Sao Paulo.

36:49He said, and he is on the commission for the Formula One because I needed all the votes from the Formula One commission for me to get my license. So all these people needed to vote for me to have a super license. Yeah. So he's looked at Guido. He said, Guido, he said, by chance, this is Mr. McCarthy. He said, oh, hello, Mr. McCarthy. He said, Guido, Mr. McCarthy has a small problem. He said, I know. He said, so Guido, if I asked you to vote for him, how would you vote? So Greedo, of course, is standing there now, paralyzed with fear. And he's just looking at Bernie going, oh my God, what do I say?

37:23So he's come out with what he thought would be sounding good. And he said, oh, well, Mr. Ecclestone, I would return to my committee to have a consensus opinion to see what they said. And Bernie's gone, no. And you see Greedo go, oh shit. I would talk to the press and see what they said about Mr. McCow. He said, no. And Greedo's like, now I'm actually enjoying this. Even in my situation, I'm actually getting some fun out of this. I'm just looking and going, I'm fascinated by this. And Bernie's looked at me and said, look, Guido, let me help you with this. I want you to vote for him. He said, no problem.

38:02And Bernie's looked at me and he's gone, there's another vote. So then I went straight to see Ron. Ron wanted to take me through his freight problems that he had before listening to me. And I was there. Frank, yeah, straight on board. so Ron Frank Giacolo just I didn't know him very well but that was that was all fine I can't remember who it was it wasn't Nicky who introduced me to Marco Piccinini a Ferrari but that all went well but Flavio when I met Flavio he looked at me as if I was some kind of something on a a piri dish that a scientist looked at and just went what are you I always remember that thinking I'm really enjoying this not you know but you got his vote yeah well summary just decided i think i do you know something i think he maybe handed over to gordon message or pat simon or whatever it was but one of those people i think convinced him gordon message was team manager at the time and pat was engineer so one of those inside the team probably said no perry should be in f1 but i don't think it's ever happened like that all since i think i'm the only driver that's ever been awarded a super license by the entire formula one commission voting in my favor do you know something after saying that maybe kimmy because kimmy came in straight from formula renault so maybe kimmy had that same situation as well so you get the license yeah but actually you didn't have a car you didn't turn a wheel in brazil in brazil it wasn't finished car wasn't finished to go out on track and so the team boss andrea sassetti had bought the remnants of the coloni formula one team at the end of the previous season i think he got turned over fairly badly on that deal just how big was the team or did it was it a similar size to a formula 3000 team just how small was it i mean incredibly small and in all in funny enough in order to actually get the cars finished it looked like a formula one recruiting office of a nighttime because other teams were moonlighting they would be there in Williams or Brabham shirts or whatever putting the cars together to help get the cars together to go out to the first races the base to begin with was in the UK but then it returned to Ancona which is out in Italy well let's talk about the first time you drive it you're in Barcelona it's the Spanish Grand Prix it was frustrating just just you're trying to pre-qualify the car what happened well i got out to spain um clearly of course the day before the dreaded friday morning because we were on track at eight o 'clock in the morning they still hadn't completed the car so i'm standing there trying to do the right thing and by this time of course i've been issued with a super license so i'm back there and everybody's you know it's really nice and now i'm looking forward to going out and you know going around barcelona and going as fast as i can and that's it anyway I've hung around hung around hang around and it's got to like 10 30 and I think well Christ I'm supposed to be out on the track at eight in the morning I do need to get back to the hotel so finally Andrea agreed to let somebody drive me across Barcelona anyway I've pulled into my luxury because I'm now a Formula One superstar of course I've pulled into my hotel expecting wonders and riches and i've opened the door and the room that i was staying in had about seven beds in it so it was me and the team all staying in the same room i i'm laughing i couldn't give a monkeys so i put my head down and of course the team were coming back so i'm going to go in with the team you know work up in the morning and i can see daylight piercing through these kind of paper thin curtains and stuff like that i've looked around the room i've gone oh my god there's nobody in the room nobody in the room i've called down to reception i said what's the time they said half past seven and you're meant to be on the track on track at eight and i don't know where i am and i've got washed and dressed faster than superman believe me i've run down the stairs i'm in a complete panic how professional am i you know my first grand prix i'm not even gonna turn up you know it's all gone wrong i'm standing there going oh my god how can i get a car how can I get a car nobody was helping I swear to you in walked Andrea's brother and believe me he just got back from a nightclub I said I've got to get to the track he said come with me in Italian so I've shot out they chose the wrong driver they should have signed him this guy was mental we were flat out across Barcelona food lights everything else we've pulled up outside the paddock he's absolutely killed this car to get me there I've just looked at him it's like the devil and carnet.

42:42I've just run through the pallet, straight to the back of the truck, got changed, run down. The press is standing there thinking, what's going on?

42:51Perry McCarthy:Because it's bang on eight o 'clock. My heart isn't 200 beats a minute. I've jumped in the car, strapped down and everything else. They can't get the car started. So they've sprayed loads of quick start into the air in it. Loads and loads and loads and loads and loads. And I'm exaggerating this. Actually, I'm pushing the point here because of the next thing that happened so much so that when they've started the engine the whole thing is ignited inside the airbox and a tunnel of flames coming out around my head and around the cockpit right which they've then thrown blankets over me to try and put it out they've lifted the blankets off got the engine going they've gone okay go now when we talk about today's modern grand prix drivers and how professional they are and with the levels of backup and comfort that they've got basically i've had my own version of home alone i've nearly been killed in multiple crashes across barcelona to get there i've sat in the car they're very nearly incinerated me and it's now time to go out and try and qualify for the for my first ever grand prix perfect prep perfect prep no i've pulled out the garage i've got to the line i'm trying to calm down my my heart's on valve bounce you know like that and they've gone go and i've Gone across the line and the engines cut out.

44:07Perry McCarthy:And the cars rolled to a halt. And that was it. And I told you, Tom, as soon as I came into Formula 1, I would set records. I told everybody that and I did. The shortest ever attempt of qualifying for a Grand Prix. I think it was 30 meters. And I got out of the car and you're just looking. And I remember looking up and there was part of me that was laughing. Just going, I just can't believe this. before we began the interview you reminded me of something that i've always said which is very nice of you is that i actually understand success which is great i actually completely understand failure unfortunately but what i don't understand is mediocrity even looking back at this level of failure it wasn't about being mediocre it was about trying in stupid circumstances ridiculous ridiculous circumstances.

45:01Perry McCarthy:So it's probably helped that I'm actually not a bitter person. I swear to you when asked about this, if there was a key attribute, I'm going to be big-headed and say it and offer it up. I have never been jealous of anybody in my entire life about anything. Nothing. Zero. I always believe it's out there for you to get or not get. That's all there is to it. I'm kind of saying about my own career That's what I was saying earlier about that kind of hard done boy thing. I don't look at it like that. It went wrong Tough brush yourself down pick yourself up get going again And I look back at even these mental things that happen and start laughing and just go.

45:42Perry McCarthy:Oh my god and I think that what happened with all this nonsense is that Incredibly we became so remembered for how bad it was we weren't just I was out there 15th 16th on the grid as a fairly solid midfielder and finish my career like that I was probably more all or nothing you know I was I kind of think I was destined to either maybe do terribly well or the career I had but did you believe at this stage that it was going to get better well to be quite honest you can't help but think it's going to get a bit better from that i mean we are talking fairly low levels there you know so if you couldn't imagine it getting better from that i think that you'd probably be a fairly sad individual funny thing is it didn't get an awful lot better from that but but at that point you're thinking okay well we're getting some of the team in trouble out the way you know there's got to be an opportunity here somewhere well you go to imola next and actually you complete seven laps okay you don't qualify but did you start to get a feel for the car's potential no no not really I mean the first couple of laps were even learning which way the corners went and then I started getting an awful lot faster but immediately I picked up that we had so much in understeer because the diff was binding I kind of could feel that immediately and I came in to tell them and and that was it they they said they couldn't do anything about it and that was it that was my sum total of trying to qualifier at Imler, those seven laps.

47:15It was really lucky I'd maintained my fitness for that because that was, um, by my Andrea Moda standards, that was an endurance event. Can we talk about Monaco? And actually I was frightened.

47:29Perry McCarthy:Okay. Why? I often get asked about fear in motor racing and Ayrton said something, which is really cool. He caption, encapsulates it. You know, he said, yeah, of course he has fear. Yeah. You know, in my opinion, everybody has fear. They're either lying or they're not going fast enough if they've said they've never been frightened. As Elton used to put it, you have to squeeze that fear down and you've got to try and somehow be in control of it. And I totally subscribe to that because I've had all those moments where it's pouring rain, you can't see anything. And clearly, of course, your heart beats at 700 beats a minute.

48:00You know, it's like you're tingling about what can go wrong, but you're pushed to do it. But normally that fear lasts for a very small moment in time. they put me out of monaco and i'd never been around monaco before and i know the bloody thing isn't going to last that long and they've put me out late in the session the seat wasn't fitting there was no windshield the steering column was moving i was being bounced around all over the place trying to push as hard as i could just on those few laps my head was getting smacked around everywhere because there was no shield i was straight in full-on air to do it and as i say the column was moving and i couldn't feel the car because the seat was moving and i wasn't fitting in the seat properly and i can tell you quite seriously that was very different from being scared for a moment i was actually frightened and you're thinking do you know something i'm i'm probably in the wrong place here you know i'm completely out of my depth totally out of my depth i'm in this thing that it's still a formula one car even though it's a piece of junk so it's still quick but i'm moving in the seat i can't steer it properly my head's been smacked around all over the place and i've never seen the circuit before and i've got one or two laps to try and qualify it there was a nagging doubt inside me thinking you know this is where that that absolute killer drive to even come through my career, coupled with what was now happening, was probably going to get me killed because I just could not control the whole thing.

49:39And I guess where I was particularly lucky is that they had put me out so late that there was no time to complete anything. So then I came back into the pits. I was going around there just going, I don't know what I'm doing. And I've never, ever had that. It was too much. I just couldn't, couldn't do it. Did you feel the team, okay, it had two cars, you were in one, Roberto Moreno was in the other, but did you feel actually it was a one-car team? No, totally. Yeah, I mean, Roberto makes no bones about it. Looking from Roberto's side of things, Roberto was absolutely right for him and maybe for the team to direct them as he did, which is to say, don't bother about the second car, you're

50:21Perry McCarthy:incapable of running a second car put all the resources into my first car so from roberto's position he was totally right to do that even from the team's position he was right to do that what you've got as being the second driver in that situation is a pile of junk and actually quite a dangerous one yeah i'm not desperately keen on roberto as a person but he was totally right to do what he did from his perspective and indeed from the team's perspective where the team were wrong is that they did have a duty of care to actually keep me alive and i don't say that lightly because as i hope you know i don't moan and i don't dramatize but that was getting marginal and i mean really marginal the fact that moreno qualified that car at monaco did that tell you at some level, but if they could get your car up and running, it was a decent car.

51:16Perry McCarthy:Tom, I know where you're going with this. That was nothing to do with the team. The only thing that team managed to do to get that car to qualify was the fact that it kept running for a few laps. There's one thing that got that car into Monaco, and that was Roberto. That's the only thing that got that car in. And I'll tell you something. thing i reckon if qualifying had gone on for another two or three laps roberto wouldn't have got in because there were a bunch of newcomers at monaco then i think that they were still learning the track and understanding what to do and everything else was roberto knew monaco very fast racing driver and managed to haul that thing around the track but the others were getting better and better and better clearly probably with better cars so another one or two laps they would have had their confidence with a better car to displace roberto so no my my personal opinion is the the only thing that got that car into the race was the fact they carried on running for a few laps which was a real achievement see i told you it'd get better and roberto doing a super job to get car in.

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53:03so the team goes from monaco where they qualify one car and then the next five races are messy right you have canada where there were freight issues there was no engine for your car in montreal you then go to france and the trucks didn't arrive at many cool because there was a truck driver's strike they got caught up in that silverstone your home grand prix you'll put out on Roberto's used wet tires on a dry track. Yeah, I thought that was even cool for the team to come up with that one. I went out there and just went, I'm fed up with this crap, you know. And I set the fastest time on my first lap, yeah.

53:41Then the next lap, you know that thing I said to you about Monaco, where I was lucky that we got put out so late so that they called me in. I got really lucky at Silverstone because I had completely had enough. I was absolutely hell bent on those tires in those conditions on just keeping my foot in and the clutch went the following lap the problem is is that you stop asking yourself the questions you should be asking because you're so desperate to try and go through but for a team to do that to you to put you out in those circumstances and then your own mentality just like I'm staying I'm keeping my foot in anywhere on the following lap that was going to get walled big time and so I got lucky that the clutch went so i couldn't be stupid enough to push because i'd lost my temper which was dumb i told you these are one of my many flaws did you think of quitting at this moment no never you're not a quitter no no that wasn't even on the cards what about when you go to hungary at the next race and they put you out with i think 45 seconds of pre-qualifying to go i came back from that one went into the garage and i was about to punch everybody in the team yeah so there was a big hold back and that was it because I'd completely lost it and the amazing thing was it was only it was about an hour before that Jackie Oliver had come up to me and just said Perry would you consider testing for the team at Spa i.e.

55:00Arrows you know we want you to test you and everything else well the thing is I knew Spa was coming up I knew the circuit I knew the conditions might rain so even in the Andre Amoda around Spa I might get that on the grid so I said to Jackie I can't that's it but i'll talk to andrea after qualifying to see if they can loan me out to you to do the test well of course they sent me up with 45 seconds i've come in throwing a wobbler after punching everybody out funny enough andrea didn't actually concede to my uh request to be released to arrows after that so i shot myself in the foot there was that the moment you think that you kiss goodbye to a Formula One career?

55:46No, no. I was getting a lot of people coming up to me in Formula One saying I cannot believe what you're going through and that you're still that determined. So I've probably set the scene on I'm not trusting the team technically or from their level of skill or devotion to me or application to me, pardon me, that would be a better word. Spa is actually the last race, if you look at the record books, that you try and qualify. Yeah, yeah. Tell us what happened. Here's where we were in the clear because the Brabham team were in so much trouble back then. I don't think they turned up for that race.

56:19So that meant there was no need for pre-qualifying anymore. So we're now, we are for the first time going to be in qualifying. That's it. In the right conditions, I could get this bloody thing on the grid. I've done it before, you know, that's it. But I know I'm not going to have long to do it. So I went out on the track and what up. I'm just going to trust myself. Just go natural. Find out what the thing does and play with it as I go. But it's got to be fast now. And my first run down to Eau Rouge, I was flat, obviously. Sorry, flat means flat out. So you're changing gear. You're flat out on the throttle.

56:56And I've come up to begin my turn in. Now, of course, a Formula One car gets heavier at speed because of the downforce. But I've gone to turn in, and the steering was really, I mean, really difficult. now if it had been I swear to you if it had been any other car I would have stayed flat yeah I'm just thought I'll take care of it but a warning bell went off in my head and just went brake and by the time I was on the brakes I was in the middle of the corner at the bottom of the hill and I couldn't turn the car the steering wheel were jammed this is one of those things that I don't know what I was doing but sometimes I do the right thing it's just gut feeling and i came off the brakes now what that did was it lifted the car i turned the steering wheel it's incredibly difficult to do so i went off the track along the wall but not in i turned the car rather than straight in where you know the how the wall faces you i'd gone up the hill over the brow and i'd made it that was very very close because even in andrea modi you're coming into that about 180 miles an hour, you know, and the wall was facing me and the steering wheel wouldn't turn.

58:04So I got away with that. Now I'm so much slower at the top of the hill, I've turned and the car's turning. So then I've gone a bit faster, steering wheels jam. And I said to myself, downforce, jamming, steering rack's flexing. So imagine the steering rack as being a hollow tube, which allows the passage of the steering arms to come through. Once you turn the steering wheel, the steering column, it drags the steering arms in. Well, if that is bent, it won't allow the steering arms to come in therefore freeze in the steering column and the steering wheel so that was it for me i was right so i crawled back to the pits i came into the pits i just said guys i think the steering rack is jamming and i said we know i said um right how do you know that and there were journalists around tony dodgins was there tony dodgins just before i got in the car begged me not to get in the car the journalist the f1 journalist he said i got a horrible feeling i said i've got no choice tony i've got to go so they were around there when i was doing this and i said i said so sorry you knew that the steering rack was flexing yeah we tested it on roberto's car last week so what you did guys is you took the steering rack off that car that was flexing and you put it on my car for qualifying for the belgium grand prix yeah well that's when i knew there was time to leave the team but i didn't even have a chance because word about this got around and other things as well and the team were actually banned this is where you look back at

59:31Perry McCarthy:these things and just go how do i take that well i take it as like am i a lucky boy or what unbelievably lucky not unlucky to have been in the car not unlucky to have got to formula one I'm not unlucky about the opportunity that dissolved. Lucky boy that that didn't end up plowed into the wall. Driving back from Spa on that Saturday evening, did you think you'd ever drive a Formula One car again? I wasn't prepared to stop fighting at that time. I knew that that wasn't me. I knew that that wasn't me having lost my nerve. I was rather hopeful that from literally only nine, ten months before, leading stuff in America that I hadn't lost any speed or desire or talent or anything like that.

1:00:21So you felt there's got to be a way in. But I had kind of focused all my ambitions so much on Formula One that I'd actually really neglected any other kind of career in motor racing, including what we call Group C, you know, the big Le Mans World Championship sports cars, etc everything was was quite ruthlessly aimed at formula one so it was pretty much formula one or nothing are there parallels at this time between you and what damon hill was going through because he was in the brabham they were in financial difficulties i would imagine damon was wondering whether the f1 break was really going to happen for him yeah i imagine damon was wondering that

1:01:03Perry McCarthy:because even though Damon's car and his team were a joke compared to, of course, the illustrious years of Brabham 10 years before, you know, the car could do something, but it really wasn't quick enough. So pretty much Damon was failing to pre-qualify as well. And we got to spend a lot of nice time together across the Grand Prix weekend while the others were really working hard. But what Damon did have behind him at that same time was that he'd got the Williams testing contract. So back in those days, when testing was allowed and required, Damon was doing an awful lot of laps and an awful lot of work with a top Grand Prix team to understand what makes a car better, how he can fit into that, develop his own skills, his own communication with the team, all that kind of stuff.

1:01:51Perry McCarthy:and then of course there was the most unusual set of circumstances for Damon that at the end of 92 having of course had a not quite as bad as my own showing but pretty bad showing you know this this wasn't going to make his career driving for Brabham full stop yeah he was probably over to be quite frank same as me you know there's not too many chances available but the thing is Nigel left the Williams team, as you know, after winning the world championship. So he'd had this big spat with the team, throwing the toys out the pram. I'm leaving. That's it. And it was so late in the year that they're going, well, all the other top stars are signed.

1:02:33Perry McCarthy:But Damon, where his work had given him such credibility is that he'd done such a great job that he made it an easier decision for them to make that leap to say, okay, we're going to upgrade our test driver to be race driver. If he'd just been plonking around in the Williams all through the year without anything special, there's no way they would have made that jump. But that's what this game and many things are about, opportunity and being prepared for them. And he was. So there was that opportunity, he jumped in, grabbed it, and of course made the most of it. Was there a lesson there for you about going the testing route?

1:03:12Well, I tried. I tried pushing Williams for a test drive. I tried pushing everybody to get in for a regular test ride, but many of them already had their test

1:03:22Perry McCarthy:drivers anyway. And, and the other thing is, you know, I certainly had my fans out there, but you know, each year you get older, you're becoming less and less attractive because remember now I was in formula one with Andre Amoda, but I was 31 really and truly, I would kind of fight in the F1 teams corner against me, if you like, and just say, well, why do we want to take on a third driver when we could maybe find a real young superstar at 21 22 23 who we could have under contract for another five six seven years and do better from that so that's that's just really the kind of facts of life you know you do get to test for a front-running team later in 1992 when you when you jump into the benetton oh yeah yeah yeah how revealing was that experience you know there was there's certain things about that that were kind of tiny bit upsetting i went pretty quickly in that car and it was really didn't take much to do it working with great people in a great car having that real confidence that my god i've got something under me you know i didn't go instantly quick within the first five laps because my total lappage had been like 10, 12 laps that year.

1:04:40Perry McCarthy:So I needed to get a tiny bit of confidence around because it felt like being strapped to the back of an Exocet once you got in this bloody thing, because it'd been a while since I'd driven something so great. But at the end of the first day, I kind of got started getting my head around it and went quicker and quicker, which is fantastic. So that confidence is the, and this is what I was saying before about even the top drivers need that arm around the shoulder, need some backup, need some confidence from people around them. and my goodness it worked but I only got the drive because Alex Anardi back when Alex was third driver was ill for a little while so I tested for Benetton's for a little while that was great and it was brilliant but yeah I liken the third driver role sometimes to being like reminds me of Jungle Book you know you remember the vultures that are sitting on the tree you know you're sitting around just waiting for somebody to get hurt or ill or anything to jump in their seat but that situation didn't transpire for me but that came up because marty brundle recommended me to uh to get in you know when they needed a driver and that b192 was the car in which schumacher had won his first race in belgium earlier in the year yeah were you testing alongside michael no because i was testing the active ride suspension ready for the following season yeah so they didn't want michael in the car because it had a habit of going wrong sometimes and you don't want your style player getting hurt and that's it.

1:06:04So anyway, Michael was down there and I'd been going around and by now I'm going bloody quickly.

1:06:10Perry McCarthy:But I'm looking at the times and I'm thinking, okay. So I said to Michael, well, how do you drive the lap? So he took me around the lap and everything. I said, yeah, yeah, me, yeah, me too, me too. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And bridge corner, I take flat out. That's my German accent, by the way, okay. Bridge corner, I take flat out. I was thinking, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. No, I'm trying to take that flat out and I can't get anywhere near it. He said I'd take it flat out. So I've gone back out in the car and it's really wound me up. And I'm going out there and I'm now approaching Bridg Corner and I'm thinking, okay, I know you're brilliant, but if you can take it flat out, so can I.

1:06:49But everything inside me is going, I can't take this flat out. I've already tried and the car's moving way too much. But I've stuffed my foot in the accelerator and I'm just turning in. That's it. Well, I've turned in. This is what I mean about my level of intelligence.

1:07:03Perry McCarthy:It's like wanting, you know? The car's gone everywhere. My hands were moving faster than Bruce Lee in a Kung Fu fighting film. Did you spin? No, I didn't spin. There was no doubt a bit of skill going on there. There was undoubtedly a massive dollop of luck going on and I kept the thing together and managed to get through the next corners. Scared the daylights out of myself because you don't want to be wrecking the Benetton as this, here's your chance. Oh, by the way, he's just totaled Michael's car. Great stuff. So I've come straight into the pits and I think, there's got to be something wrong.

1:07:38There's got to be tyre pressures, tyre pressures. I'll say that. So I've come in, Pat Simmons has come up to the car. I said, why are you in? I said, Pat, can we check the tyre pressures? I think there's something wrong. He said, okay. Anyway, he's gone for a little while later. He's come back.

1:07:51Perry McCarthy:He's kneeling down by the car and he's got a smile on his face. and he's going um so pal did you have a little moment out there so i said no no not at all he said you sure about that i said yeah because i don't want to show weakness you know i don't want to show that i've never he said really he said well the funny thing is he said on the telemetry trace we've got you on full opposite log 180 miles an hour right so i've gone well it's not me it was michael michael said he could take bridge flat i said right well i will as well he said michael does take it flat when he's got no fuel in the car and he's on qualifying tires you were on used race rubber with half a tank of fuel so yeah obviously michael totally wound me up to do that i don't know if he even realized what he was doing but that was me being an idiot but there again that's the competitive drive you know i was thinking i can't understand from what he's just said how he can be that much quicker but i should have trusted myself well perry it's it's an incredible story yours um if i were to say to you what is the biggest thing you learned in formula one what's your answer do you know i've got i've got a different reply to that it's probably going to sound stupid but it's not a one-way street those things i said to you about earlier that i felt i had some attributes which were right for formula one i actually do believe there that level of focus that level of desire passion the culture of work ethic the culture of that curiosity how can we be better how can we want more how can we get more you know with a direction involved in it but i have an awful lot of people contact me on a fairly regular basis and it's really sweet and often brings a lump to my throat is that people have got hold of me and they've had a really bad time in life or something like that and they've read my book and they've seen my own attitude to it including how to laugh stuff off or keep punching and stuff like that and they've said it's made a difference to them and that really affects me greatly because if you feel that you've given anything to people not just from an entertainment position from them wanting to see a racing driver and go out and race cars but but maybe if maybe if some people have taken you know your own attitude and it's maybe helped them I think that's the biggest thing that I could ever ask for that means probably more to me than getting a few podiums or something like that that that ongoing thing the way you just keep getting that feedback from people so I kind of will be big-headed and turn around and say you know maybe I did get a lot from Formula One maybe I learned some stuff from formula one but i rather hope i've actually contributed my bit to formula one to enhance the culture the reputation of formula one of saying this is what formula one takes people like this who are just won't stop i rather hope that i might even with my stunningly successful career in formula one but i was around it for a real long time you know even before i got in people knew about me and i'd often be in the pits and stuff like that so i do feel as if my my formula one time wasn't just that year people knew about me in formula one for a real long time before and slightly after as well so i can only hope that for a change maybe a slightly different answer to you maybe one that you don't receive is that i honest to god hope that i've given my share back to maintaining formula one's reputation as a place of just absolute level of determination you know well that's a hell of a legacy but as you as a racing driver yeah if you had your time again what would you do differently not start what i did differently oh do you know what there's been plenty of times when i wish i could have kept my mouth shut but conversely that's the fire that is within me the problem is is that when you're so used to coming out punching because there's nobody around you you don't know any other way to react i didn't have an upbringing or an entry into this game with people looking after you would you have got a manager again the problem was is that when and who would i have listened to at that particular moment in time i wasn't kind of on those levels i wasn't bright enough to actually understand that somebody could have taken care of me in that way who would have paid for the manager there was no money you can't have a manager just pick you up and run with you who's any good if they're not getting any money so it it kind of you know you might as well say would you have enjoyed joining williams when you're 26 yes you know but but the the reality is that to a degree this was my lot and even that was only made possible was because I refused to take no for an answer on so many levels coming through.

1:12:49Was I right on every level? Bloody well not. How many mistakes did I make on and off track? Loads and loads and loads. Did I maximize certain moments to really stand out? Yes. And that's how I stayed in the game. But my entire story is with shortfalls from my side, no question. Also from some bad luck, to be quite frank but on some other things I've probably made my own bad luck do I have loads and

1:13:16Perry McCarthy:loads of regrets I'll tell you God's honest truth Tom no I've had some brilliant times really brilliant times there have been some great successes some wonderful friendships which are still intact today and unlike what could have happened at Eau Rouge I'm still alive and kicking enjoying a bottle of wine every now and again and watching my kids fulfill their aspirations and dreams as well so all in all it's been a ride that word proud of the friendships probably proud of the book what it means to me what it's meant to other people that will stay that will stay as let's say Perry's legacy and hopefully people can pick up on a bit of humor and one door shuts another one opens yes very briefly you were the first stig on the BBC TV show Top Gear that looked amazing fun i did want to ask um what was the fastest car you got to drive in that role the sticky stuff was incredible i mean keeping it secret absolutely works you know what it's like when people don't know something and they really want to know and that the the question of who is the stick became one of the top 10 questions asked on the internet and i was just behind is there a god and am i pregnant and then who is the stick that was amazing fastest car yeah it was the bikani zonda or the konanzegger or whatever but you know they're quick but obviously it's not a racing car obviously i'm gonna get in something and go as fast as i can there wasn't that reward of being a racing driver nothing is and who was the best celebrity you coached and what was it the reasonable reasonably priced car go back to that conversation we had about the rat pack about different attributes on sheer absolute speed you know but raw kind of pace was jk from jamiroquai however probably better than him as an overall thing was actually jody kidd the supermodel because jody was thinking ahead and she was keeping it smooth still with a pace on sheer absolute raw speed in those cars not quite where jay was but as somebody who could develop probably further if she went further would have been jody jody kid perry it has been a wonderful chat thank you so much for your time i did just want to end with this it is the 75th anniversary of formula one in 2025 what is your favorite race in the history of f1 75 years is incredible for this kind of sport isn't it because it's been so full of drama so full of stories so full of characters so full of talent.

1:15:55Perry McCarthy:I guess for me, those closing laps in the 1979 Dijon Grand Prix between Gilles Villeneuve and René Arnault, you know, Jaboui in the lead Renault was off on his own winning a race. But my goodness, the battle royale between those two. And that showed the talent, the commitment, the passion and breathtaking excitement for the crowd and for the viewers. it was just unbelievable it was an awesome battle and it was for p2 not even for the win doesn't it does beg the question actually gilles villeneuve your helmet colors look very like his was was he a hero of yours yeah i had it done in jules's uh colors it celebrated kind of my entry in the formula one you know you take specific moments about those driving moments about saying why did you become a Grand Prix driver?

1:16:48And one of those things was looking at Gilles Villeneuve on the track and people like Alan Jones and Jody Schecter and things like that. But Gilles, of course, was that kind of gifted, exciting thing. And he just thought, wow, I wonder if I could be like him. So it'd been almost exactly 10 years since Gilles was killed in qualifying at Zolder, Belgium in 1982. And all those things just fit to just turn in and say, I'm going to have my trash on my in-shills as colors.

1:17:17Perry McCarthy:You know, there is that romance inside me. You know, for years and years and years, I would meet another racing driver who was very famous and well-known and I'd be standing there and I'd, you know, I'd have to remind myself I'm a racing driver too, but inside I'm thinking, wow, I'm standing with Alan Jones. Wow, Keki Rosberg's talking to me, you know? And I never lost that sense of awe. And still some of the people I still see in Formula One and stuff, I meet them and inside I'm thinking, wow, wow, I'm speaking to, you know, him or him or him. It's the little boy in you coming out. Oh, it's still there.

1:17:49Perry McCarthy:It's very much still there. And I get some of that kick from watching, you know, Formula 1 still, just going, wow, what a move. Great one. Go, go, go, you know. Perry, thank you so much. Thanks, Tom. Thank you.

1:18:06Dijon 79 was one of the all-time great races, and that battle in the closing laps between Villeneuve and Arnoux was inspirational. It stirred something in Perry and in millions of others around the world. And as for Perry, his story is one of guts and determination. Against all odds, he made it as a racing driver and he made it to Formula One. A career trajectory like his simply couldn't happen today, which makes it all the more remarkable. Thanks for sharing it, Perry, and thank you for your time. I hope to see you again soon. Well, that's almost it for this week. One more thing before I go. Martin Donnelly's name came up a few times in this chat, and Brad Pitt also mentioned him when I spoke to him about F1 the movie.

1:18:51He was the inspiration for Sonny Hayes' character in the film. So do scroll back on the Beyond the Grid feed, or search for our episode with Martin for another incredible F1 story from the 1990s. I'll of course be back next week with another great guest from the world of Formula One. But for now, thanks for listening. F1 Beyond the Grid is produced by Formula One and Audioboom Studios. Until next time, keep it flat out.