Romain Grosjean: a career of comebacks

0:03A lot of people thought I was very arrogant. I was just shy to be in the paddock. Coming back in 2012 was tricky because imagine all the engineers, all the guys that I told the new ownership that I wasn't good enough, you know, that the car wasn't that bad. It was the driver in 2009. So those guys that throw you under the bus, then you come back. It's second place for Romain Grosjean Equalling his best finish in Formula 1 What made you sign Fahas? It was a 45 minutes fun call with Gunther Where I did ask all the hard questions And I liked the answer That is one of the scariest accidents I have seen for some time Thank goodness that Romain Grosjean is out of that car My wife, my dad and my kids and they fought for almost three minutes I was dead.

0:57And that was the hardest part for me to overcome.

1:06Welcome everyone to this week's F1 Beyond the Grids. I am very delighted to say we're joined by Romain Grosjean. Romain, how are you? I'm doing great, thank you. What about you? I'm good. Look, we're here to talk about Formula One, but you have just finished your IndyCar season. a sensational second place in Markham. How would you sum it up? Has it been a decent season? How do you reflect? It's not the season I was hoping for, but there were a few highlights. I think St. Pete race one, qualified in a fast six, and then I led the 500, which is pretty cool, and finished top 10 at the 500. And then Markham, we came close to a win.

1:46Five laps too long was the race. And that's a murder good races, but generally also some difficult weekends and we couldn't really understand why. So bittersweet, you know, some really good moments, some other one like you wish you were better. But still don't love driving. I was going to say 40 years old and still loving it. Don't say that too loud. Shh. Life begins. Trust me, I've been there a long time ago. Life begins at 40. Oh, good news. Now, let's talk F1. I'd like to start with Kimi Antonelli, if I could, because I think there is a relevance to your career as well. Kimi's 20 years old now.

2:26What do you think of the step he's taken since last year? I think it's what Kimi's doing. Of course, he's incredibly talented and an amazing race car driver. But I think what I see from the outside is how good the management and Mercedes was around him. Good start last year, rough second part of the season. came back and instead of digging a hole and putting him into that they actually helped him elevate and gave him so much support that he knew the team was always going to be behind him Australia didn't really start the way it wanted this year right but it wasn't any finger pointing they pre-built a car they supported him and I think as a driver when you get that level of confidence from the people you work for because that's your employee it's a young you know it's your boss that means a lot and that helps you to become who you are the reason i think it's relevant to your career where it's interesting to get your view is you know i think back to 2009 when 23 year old roman with the big hair came into formula one with renault as fernando alonso's teammate amazing debut in Valencia but those nine races weren't always what you'd hoped and of course you then have to step back to to GP2 the following season so I think you know I'd like to sort of compare and contrast if you like you know Kimi's first year wasn't what he'd hoped yours wasn't what he'd hoped Kimi's kicked on and and is now leading the world championship and you had to step back how difficult was that for you did you not get the support from the team that Kimi's had this this time around no zero percent support um up to the last race in Abu Dhabi 2009 I was told you're in the car next year don't worry you're no driver we are proud of you we support you and imagine those nine races the first time I came to Valencia is the first time I sat in R29 there was no simulator there was no test there was no straight line there's nothing it's literally the first time I sat in the car so that's even more crazy because you were 0.3 off Alonso in your first qualifying yeah most of the qualifying i was within alonso's time and and uh there were reasons behind it why i should not beat alonso why i was not allowed to beat alonso why you know um and then sadly a wrong place wrong time i would say but um there was no support for me i was just the fuse that they needed in the middle uh to get rid of and but you know what it was a great experience to step back down come back and come back in the same team so what didn't you know in 2009 that you know now what advice would you give that guy now i guess yeah i think the advice that i didn't get is that formula one is not all about driving and there's a lot more that you need to be good at do you mean politics politics and marketing and media and i am a shy person.

5:25So, you know, a lot of people thought I was very arrogant. I was just shy to be in the Formula One paddock. A little guy from GP2, you know, and think of all the management that I've been with me for since 2006. Four seasons was suddenly gone and I was there alone. No one really to help me understand and help me steer in the right direction. So how tough was it to step back to GP2, which is obviously Formula 2 of today? Well, the GP2 is the good part. It was before that. That was tough, you know? Okay. 31st of January, 2010, Eric Boulier calls me and says, we are taking Petrov. Until that point, that was in the car.

6:06So we're taking Petrov. So I'm out and I'm like, okay, what I'm going to do now? You know, end of January. And then luckily, I wanted to stop and I found a GT gig, GT1 World Championship, won the race one, kind of got the light back on, like, oh, I still know how to drive. I still love driving. And then I don't know how I got the opportunity to go back in auto GP with Dams and then work really well. And then Dams, okay, you do one race in GP too, because I want Jean-Paul Drillot, that was very important in my career, says, I want to see if my car disaster or if it's my drivers, I don't know how to drive them.

6:50So I went to Hockenheim in one race in GP2, went pretty well. And then after the race on Sunday, Jean-Paul took me in his office and said, in 2011, if you don't have a ride, you have one here. And he kept his word and came back to GP2 in 2011, won the Asia for the second time and won the series finally. I mean, it's an amazing story. It kind of reminds me of what Alex Albon went through in 21. He got spat out of Red Bull. had to go to the DTM for 2021 and then gets a second chance with Williams in 2022. So when you come back to Formula One with the same team, Lotus, how much better prepared were you than in 2009?

7:34I think quite a bit, quite a bit. I think end of 2011, I got to some races as a reserve driver, how you want to call it. I think I learned the loss from the first time. The lesson being? That, good question, that. That it's more than just driving. Yeah, you have to be more open. Who told you that that's what, was Drio, you know, Jean-Paul Drio? I think Jean-Paul, yeah, Jean-Paul was very important and like trying to help me understand and telling me that it was more than just driving. And in all fairness, coming back in 2012 was tricky because imagine all the engineers, all the guys that are told the new ownership that I wasn't good enough, that the car wasn't that bad.

8:22It was the driver in 2009. And then for 2010, they needed new drivers. It wasn't the car. It wasn't the engineers. It was just the drivers. So those guys that throw you under the bus, then you come back. But it's crazy to think that in 2012, you finished second at the Canadian Grand Prix. That was only your 14th Grand Prix. Yes, yes. How important was that result just in terms of your position within the team, the credibility with the engineers, all that kind of thing? I think, you know, we 2012 started Australia, P3 on the grid, and then podium in Bahrain, and then Canada. Yeah, it was a great weekend, really good.

9:05The car was really good on tire, really good tire management. And that helped a lot settle things in a good spot. I think after that, again, wasn't an easy time. But up to that point, Canada was probably the highlight of that season and one of my best memory in Formula One. How good was the Lotus of those two years, 2012, 2013? And were you ready to have a car that good, if you know what I mean? Yeah. Because you were so young still. I know. I think having a car fast from the beginning helps you, actually. the team was probably not still not ready to have young drivers and help them they've had a lot of experienced drivers back in the past and I don't think they were ready yet to support a young driver that's coming and coming faster I mean as you say 14th Grand Prix and the first night don't really even count P2 and if he wasn't for a little bit glitch in the middle of a race, could have been a win.

10:11With the experience you have now, could you have won a race, do you think, in those two years? Japan 2013. I know you were out front for a long time there. That's on the team. That one, we lost it. Red Bull didn't win it. We lost it. Okay, because I sort of look back and think of Vettel and Weber strategically getting the upper hand on you. Yeah, but the team panicked. We had a plan, medium, medium, hard. And Red Bull went medium, hard, hard. and the team panicked and put hard on the second stint. But the problem is that in Q1, there was a red flag. And in Q1, we put a set of hard tire new and actually went fastest of Q1 on hard rather than being on medium or soft.

10:52And we used those hard for that middle stint. And they were not new tires anymore. And if we had done medium, medium, hard, I think we would have won the race. I get that. But you scored, what, nine of your 10 podiums in those two seasons? if it wasn't Japan where was your best opportunity elsewhere? Valencia 2012 could have been one Fernando claims that's still his best ever Grand Prix his best ever race good for him I'm happy I helped him having a good one that one could have been one when Kimi won in Australia in 2013 I don't think I could have done that I was struggling much more than him on front graining Korea maybe 2013 we could have done a touch better.

11:39Austin, there was nothing left on the car. Again, great race though. Yeah, right? Great race. Especially a starter on Mark Webber who's always a bit stressful for me. Yes. Oh my God. What did he call you? I can't remember. First lap note case. Yes, that was the one. That was the one. Not a lot. Respect for that, to be honest. Not a lot. This episode is sponsored by Wayfair. We've had a few things on our shopping list for a while and one of them was a new bed for one of our kids. Now, with something like that, you obviously want it to look good, but it needs to be practical too and ideally not cost a fortune.

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15:49look when were you at your best roman tell when you look at your formula one career as a whole was it in those lotus years or actually did you put in some performances at has that that every bit as good i mean it was easier because the car worked really well with my driving style and the car was very competitive um so it looks on the paper like it was your best time I think I kept learning. In all transparency, I don't know if you ever reach a peak or if you keep learning. It doesn't feel like getting older, you lose that much. You take it a little bit slower and through practice. You don't need to be fastest of every single lap you do.

16:34But I think you have so much more experience, so much more different situation you have been in that you can actually, to a certain point, I think, and I've not felt yet a decrease in performance. Use all of that to your advantage. So when you look at Alonso, age 45, Hamilton, age 41, do you see any drop-off? Luis, not at all. Fernando is too difficult to say. I mean, his car is not giving him what he needs to be good. Was it two, three years ago he was fighting for podiums and so you could argue that 41, 42, you're still very, very good. I think once you pass 45 yeah things may be getting a little bit more complicated but we what do you think the desire drops off like when you had kids did it make any difference to you?

17:24no I've not seen my kids in six weekends in a row and here I am right and they know it and they love the dad they have because when I'm home I'm home and they know I'm happy with what I do and I have not felt any kind of moment where I don't want to be in a race car and it will happen. I know it. And the day I question myself, I'll put my helmet on the shelf and do plenty of other things. Okay. Did you lose anything after the Bahrain crash in 2020? A bit of skin, but nothing else. But no desire to get back, you know, didn't affect your desire to get back in the car or push the limits? No, zero.

18:03If there's an accident with fire, it touches me a lot more than before. and I'm really worried about the driver and just making sure he's okay and everything is fine. So that has definitely had an impact on me. But once the green goes back and the pace car is in, it's racing as it was before and as it would be until I decide to stop. Did Bahrain give you any... Were there any side effects other than losing skin? Were there sleepless nights? Nope, nothing. Has that surprised you? Yes. Yes, because you would expect to have some kind of, you know, moment where it comes back to you and the clothes you wear from dying.

18:49But no, it worked really hard as a psychologist. I think the accident was on Sunday. Our first session was on Tuesday night, I believe, in Bahrain. And then another one on Thursday. Do you mind sharing? How did those sessions work? Did you just talk through what you remembered? It wasn't so much what I remember. is what you felt and how you feel and what was creating problems for you maybe. And for me, it was more the fact that my wife, my dad, and my kids, and I hurt them. It wasn't on purpose, but they thought for almost three minutes I was dead. And that was the hardest part for me to overcome.

19:29It wasn't the fact that I was fighting for my life because I was in control of that. But it was the fact that for my friends, for my wife, kids, dad, they didn't know what I was doing. They didn't know where I was. And for them, for three minutes, I was gone. So... And that doesn't keep you awake at night? We worked around it. And no. And I think that was the hardest part. But once we kind of cleared that and the fact that we cleared it, I was trying to do everything I could to survive. to be alive. So it wasn't like, you know, I didn't let them down, not myself. What about getting on an oval then?

20:14I remember back in showing my age now, but back in 1996, I went to the first ever IRL oval race at the Walt Disney oval. And it was a, it was a very, doesn't exist anymore, but it was a very quick oval. And, um, I remember seeing the drivers, there was people like Ari Leindyke there, really nervous before the start of the race. Much more nervous, really, than you see in Formula One today. Do you feel that? I suppose it's not a hangover from the Bahrain accident, but do you feel there's more at stake somehow on an oval than a road course? Yes, especially in the 500, and I think the whole pre-race ceremony lasting, I don't know, two hours or so, doesn't make it any easier.

21:00You just want to get on with it? Yes. You want to get in a car, you want to start the engine and go. The Indy 500 is a very, very, very stressful moment, but also an incredible moment on the grid. Short ovals, less so. The more you do it, the more you kind of understand better. It's so different from racing on, you know, street or road course. But you know when you're on a road course and you're, they talk about the flow state, don't they? you know, Brad Pitt felt it in the F1 movie as well, didn't he? But the flow state where everything's happening automatically, do you get that same level of, is it concentration?

21:41I don't know if that's the right word, but on an oval, is the feeling the same or is it very, very different feeling that you get from the car and from yourself? I mean, it's even probably more novels. It's either everything goes really well or everything goes really wrong. But when you have a good car on ovals, you do whatever you want. You place it, you position it as you want and because the speed is so high, everything matters a lot more and every single detail and input is a lot more than you think. So when you're into that perfect combination with your car, it's amazing. When you're not, it's a very long afternoon.

22:25How often are you in that perfect combination? and sadly not as many as you would like, not as often as you would like. But ovals are so long. Indy is, what, seven pit stops. Most of them are four, five pit stops. So there are times that you're going to be really good. There are times you're not going to feel that great and then you're going to feel again. And the important part is to feel really good on the last pit stop. But to bring it back to Formula One, think of the pole lap that Lando Norris did in Madrid, right? he was six tenths seven tenths faster than his first lap in q3 i've not seen that kind of improvement within one segment of qualifying ever maybe i can't not for ages anyway is that because he was reaching a flow state and a connection with the car that you don't often feel do you think I mean, it was an incredible lap.

23:21I didn't see it coming at all, as you say, six stands improvement. I think the track itself requires so much commitment and risk that you can take that Lando, just probably on the last lap, put everything perfectly on the line. And I think it reminded me a little bit of Max Verstappen lap in Jeddah, but that lap was never completed. The 21 one. Yeah. last corner yeah I think the level of confidence engagement and input that land and he almost crashed in the last corner right he had a wiggle in the last corner I think that's that type of lap that you can decide to kind of switch off your brain and just absolutely go with everything you have and is that what separates the great drivers from the good drivers that ability to find whatever it is that what we're talking about now that I think so because at that point everything has to be 100 % and you can do it for a few corners but doing it for 22 corners is a different story.

24:26Have we seen enough from Kimi Antonelli to think that he's a generational talent in the mold of a Max Verstappen or a Hamilton? Yes, I think Kimi is up there. I think he has a way of driving the car that is very different from quite a lot of people out there. it works amazingly well and on top of that it seems like no pressure can get to him which is very impressive when you're 20 years old what you don't know you don't know though right I suppose by now he would have found out the pressure of being leading a world championship and racing for Mercedes it's extraordinary isn't it it seems to come so easily to him and that must be even more infuriating for George Russell it must be it must be very difficult I think Kimi loved living chaos but the good chaos right He doesn't mind the noise and the agitation and the fans and like all of that around him.

25:19And some people are like that and they can just take energy of that. And some other people that takes energy from them. And I think Kimi for that is fantastic. He seems to have time for everybody. Time in the car when he's driving, obviously, but also off track. He stops way more than any other driver now, I'd say. Exactly what I say. it's amazing because someone just needs some time alone and often. I'm one of those, right? I like to be alone for a bit and turn off my brain. But I think Kimi does manage to do that in public, like talking with friends. It doesn't take him any energy. It just actually gives him energy.

25:56It's just like a nap could do to someone else. Yeah. Now, that is contemporary Formula One. There is one other thing I wanted to ask you about in this pod. Everyone loves an anniversary. it is 10 years since Haas' first season in Formula One. And I just wanted to ask you about that. First question, I suppose, is what made you sign for Haas? Because I remember being surprised. You went over to the States and there was the press conference and you looked really excited. But I remember thinking, interesting move from Grosjean to go to a brand new team. Yeah, it was a 45 minutes fun call with Gunther.

26:35I did ask all the hard questions. and I like the answer. And at that point, maybe 10 years in Enstone or so between Renault Drive Development and then Formula One. And there was no clear direction either from Renault on where they were going to do and what they were going to do. You'd scored a podium in 2015. We did. Yeah, we did. So did you know that you were sacrificing all of that, at least in the short term? Yes, absolutely. But I felt like there was, if the plan had been as initial, looked like there was a really good path forward. So, you know, you said you asked Gunter all the hard questions and you liked what he said.

27:18As a driver in that position, what are the questions? Like, what's the budget of the team? What's the development that we're anticipating? What's the partnership with Ferrari like? How much support we're going to get? What are the ambitions? what's the three to five years target all of those questions that you want to know like see it as a startup if you're an investor in a startup and in that case you invest in your career but I still think it was the right move I still think that it was a great experience that we could have done a lot more and I think the team is developing very well now that I always been in charge and I'm not very impartial to that one but I would have loved to have Ayo as a boss.

28:09I would have really loved that. Because he was your engineer at Renault. Every single Grand Prix I competed in Ayo was part of my car somehow. It was my performance engineer in 2009. It was my race engineer 2012, 2013, 2014. And then it was my chief engineer 2015 to 2020. He's incredibly impressive. He's got a massive brain, hasn't he? He's really bright. For a little man, yes. but he's really bright isn't he he's amazing he can fit yeah i love io and and uh you know we became friends through the years uh and where he surprised me the most is when he took the role uh because you know it wasn't easy to feel the boots of someone like gunter that had a big mouth and a big character and i was done well above every expectations and and exactly what the team needed how was your relationship with gunter behind closed doors great really yeah he's a great character um he's a good man and and we had a good relationship uh on the racing side i don't think we agreed on everything uh i suppose that's why i was asking probably but yes yes uh but but i like him personally as i say i would have loved to have a for a bit as a team principal you know you say the team needed someone like IO.

29:31What they needed an engineering brain at the top. Is that what you mean? No, not necessarily an engineering brain. That would not hurt, but someone probably calmer, someone very transparent and very honest, someone that won't hide when they make a mistake. That's very rare. You know, people coming to you say, I made a mistake. Sorry. It's a quality that in a very high level environment, you don't find very often. right and i always got all of that yes sir i look at the transformation do you remember the start of last year when bearman and ocon were nowhere in melbourne and then the very next race i think ocon was p5 and then in suzuka they were that the turnaround the fact no one panicked it was it was incredibly impressive and i think io would look back and say that was a huge achievement for the team to stay calm, not panic, because they were six tenths slower than the next slowest car.

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