Toto Wolff + Hywel Thomas: racing towards 2026

0:00This episode is sponsored by Indeed. There's a lot that goes on behind the scenes of this show, booking guests across time zones, tight turnaround edits and constant time management. And when things get chaotic, you realise pretty quickly how important it is to have the right person on your team. If I had to hire someone tomorrow, I wouldn't just want a good editor. I'd want someone who understands pace in long form interviews and can work fast under pressure. And in moments like that, you think, this is a job for sponsored jobs. Because Indeed Sponsored Jobs boosts your listing in search results, helping you reach the candidates with the specific skills and experience you actually need.

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2:41Fast, thrilling and more sustainable racing. That's what the exciting new era of Formula One will look like from 2026, with new power units, advanced sustainable fuels and different challenges for the drivers. That's different, but it's great. The fuel story is amazing. You can see how ecstatic an engineer almost gets when you look at Howell. That is an incredible project. Just phenomenal project. Complete step into the unknown. So that's one of those ones where the regulators have gone, yeah, do that. I know it doesn't exist. I know it sounds impossible, but do that. Thank you very much, F1 Sport.

3:22We'll take the benefit of that because you're making something incredible. Rumours in the paddock suggest Mercedes will be the team to beat. So how confident are they? Never confident. We are class half empty people, never half full. You can't take anything for granted, even if the Mercedes-Benz bar unit was the strongest. Quite frankly, I don't know how much power we're going to get to the first race, so God knows how the rest of the paddock knows what we're getting there. These rumour mills are always dangerous. We are not being carried away by any gossip that's been discussed at the hairdresser.

3:57Hello and welcome to F1 Beyond the Grid with me, Tom Clarkson. Now the thrilling 2025 season has ended, Full Focus switches to 2026 for one of the biggest rule changes in the history of Formula 1. Always raising the bar for innovation and technology, F1 has gone through different rule cycles throughout the last 75 years. But with new car and new engine regulations arriving at the same time in 2026, there's even more anticipation this time around. Mercedes team principal Toto Wolff

4:36performance powertrains, Hal Thomas, are working incredibly hard to make sure the team can compete once again for world titles in this new era. Toto and Hal provide a fascinating breakdown of exactly what we can expect from the new power units and advanced sustainable fuels. What demands will the new regs place on the drivers and teams? How will they impact the competitive order? And what could Mercedes achieve with George Russell and Kimi Antonelli in the coming years. Very warm welcome to you both. It's the end of a long season, 24 races. How are you both feeling? Personally, I'm looking forward to the end of the season.

5:19This is the last season that we're going to be racing this PU. We've been doing it since 2014 and she's going into retirement and I'm looking forward to that because we've got a new challenge to look forward to beyond that. Well, if I've got my maths right, it's 40-odd days until the 26 cars hit the racetrack in Barcelona. It's going to be a busy winter, short winter too. I think for everyone involved in, definitely in the PU side and an awful lot in the chassis side as well, I should think there isn't a winter this year. We'll be testing straight after this event. And then, as you say, before the end of January, we're out on the circuits with the new cars.

5:57So, crikey, there's no rest for the wicked, is there? And there's going to be a lot of you two being together over the winter? I mean, like Christmas lunch together, is that what we're looking at? We are emotionally and philosophically always together since many years because Howard is doing such a great job over there. Whenever there is hiccups appearing and the power unit is an extremely complex issue, I know that Howard is solving these like he's always done. So our relationship, we're speaking to each other, but it's more informative. if Howell doesn't need my help. To be clear, I'm not fixing those problems.

6:34His team. The team's fixing the problems and they're a great team. I want to drill down into the new regs that are coming in 2026. But before we do that, can we just doff our caps to the season just gone? I mean, Toto, starting with you, how do you look back on 2025? I think when we will be looking back in 10 or 20 years and look at the pure stats, you can say that the last 15 years were really good because we won eight consecutive championships and then the following four was it was P3, P2, P4, hopefully P2 and that looks solid and respectable but obviously it hides the fact that in each of those years there was another team that was pretty dominant so we were never the one who were fighting for the championship and that is a little bit unfortunate and we suffer from that from a competitive mindset but it is what it is and I would say I would rank this season like some of the previous ones in respectable we've won some races, many, many, many podiums, pole positions and fundamentally fighting for a P2 in the Formula 1 World Championship which is the pinnacle of motor racing so that's how I would summarize it we aren't depressed we aren't exuberant either It's something in the middle, but this is the most formidable motor racing competition against the most formidable teams.

8:02And I think over the last, like I said, we've done a solid job. Nicky Lauda always used to say you learn more when you lose. P2's been, as you say, a respectable season. What have been the biggest things you've learned in 25? The power unit's also been respectable. We've won more races because of the customer relationship that we have with McLaren. does mean that as a constructor, we've won a world championship. Can I interrupt you there, Hal, and just say, how much pleasure do you take from a McLaren Mercedes world championship? I think what isn't always visible to people is just how much the Mercedes PU is part of the overall Mercedes F1 entity.

8:49You know, we are wholly owned by Mercedes. we exist to do one thing and that's to win world championships with Mercedes. That's what we talk about forever at the factory. You know, of course we say it's better to have won that championship than not, but we are absolutely part of the Mercedes team. So I've sat here in Mercedes kit. That's why I sit in the Mercedes garage. And it's why the relationships with the engineering group in Brackley are so strong. Can you just clarify, are the power units that you give to all of the customer teams identical to the ones being used by the works team? Yep, they are.

9:24They're completely identical. So we design one power unit. We design that with our colleagues in Brackley to make sure that it fits the Brackley car perfectly. And then the customers are invited to take the same power unit. So I guess this begs the question, what does a works team look like these days, Toto? you know i think you need to do one step back um raison d 'etre for hpp is to win world championships with the works team you know this is mercedes but in order to make the economies work and also to use it as a test bench and a comparison to the works team it's good that we have the customer supply situation and there will always be a part of howell and i think hpp that is allowed to cheer for their power unit to have won a championship.

10:15And it's the mindset that we always had is this power unit has won a Constructors World Championship. That means our car wasn't good enough to beat McLaren. And that's the sheer simple fact. So for us being able to benchmark ourselves, you can at least take the power unit out of the equation. You know, that's the thing that is good enough to win a championship. So on the chassis side, we haven't done that. And in that respect, there's many reasons why we do have these relationships. with Williams and with McLaren, Aston Martin this year and LP next year, to kind of benefit from the faster development, fault fixes, like I mentioned, the investment from the Mercedes group.

10:55But we are here. Mercedes gives us this opportunity to decorate the most important shopping window to make the works team win. Nobody else is interested in some kind of customer success outside of our little microcosmos. it is the Mercedes team and then there is the McLaren team and then there is the Williams team and that's something that we always bear in mind One last thing on 25 can we just talk about the drivers? George Russell said in Abu Dhabi that it's been his best season in Formula 1 do you agree with him? I think he was very strong difficult summer I guess with all the rumours and he was able still to shine he ranks among the best in the sport But I haven't seen many weaknesses this year, to be honest.

11:42And his growth has been impressive to see. So if he says that, I would probably agree to it. You talk about his growth. Have you been impressed by the way he's led the team? We're 2 ,500 people between Bricksworth and Brackley. 2 ,500 superstars, not one. And there's not one leading or there's not five leading. And it's not Howard or me leading or any driver. It's just a collective effort. And the driver is the kind of last line of attack. the most visible one. And he has definitely contributed to the success of this team, contributed to how we have all been able to win races and have board positions and hopefully be two in the world championships.

12:21Is he good technically, Hal? Yeah, he is. He is good technically. And I think one of, just perhaps following up a little bit on that, I think when you say he has impressed as a leader, to be honest with you, the impressive thing is that I don't think he's changed that much. You know, I think he's always been challenging. he's always wanted the best out of the PU. He's always wanted the best out of the car. And I think there was, I was a bit worried coming into this year that he might actually change his approach a little bit to say, oh, I'm the leader now. I've got to do something different. I need to do more.

12:50I've got to do it differently. Actually, the fact that he stayed pretty similar, I think is probably one of the greatest things that he's done this year. He's a natural leader. Yeah, and he's a very natural character. You know, that's who he is. And he's a fun guy to be around. This episode is sponsored by Indeed. There's a lot that goes on behind the scenes of this show, booking guests across time zones, tight turnaround edits, and constant time management. And when things get chaotic, you realise pretty quickly how important it is to have the right person on your team. If I had to hire someone tomorrow, I wouldn't just want a good editor.

13:28I'd want someone who understands pace in long-form interviews and can work fast under pressure. And in moments like that, you think, this is a job for sponsored jobs. Because Indeed Sponsored Jobs boost your listing in search results, helping you reach the candidates with the specific skills and experience you actually need. And it works. Sponsored jobs posted directly on Indeed are 95 % more likely to report a hire than non-sponsored jobs. That's a serious edge when the pressure's on. Spend less time searching and more time actually interviewing candidates who check all your boxes. Less stress, less time, more results.

14:06When you need the right person to cut through the chaos, this is a job for Indeed Sponsored Jobs. And listeners of this show will get a$75 sponsored job credit to help get your job the premium status it deserves at indeed.com slash podcast. Just go to indeed.com slash podcast right now and support our show by saying you heard about Indeed on this podcast. Indeed.com slash podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Need to hire? This is a job for Indeed Sponsored Jobs. Cadillac has entered Formula One, deepening the racing pedigree behind every V-Series on the road. Discover a line-up that delivers pure adrenaline in the form of modern luxury.

14:50Experience the quickest Cadillac ever, the all-electric Lyric V, the peak performance of the CT5V Blackwing, the nimble agility of the Optic V, and the legendary roar of the Escalade V, all engineered to thrill. Find out more about Cadillac's performance story in Formula One and our race-tested V-Series lineup at cadillac.com.

15:28Right, that's George. What about Kimi? It seemed like a season of two halves for him. In what areas do you feel he's grown the most? I would say it's almost been a game of three-thirds because he came into the team and, of course, in those early races, you're like, wow, this is incredible. This guy with such little experience is really putting it out there. Then he had his blip and the results weren't there and now he's come back super strong. really impressive. And to think, you know, he's the age that he is, and he's dealing with it all. And he's, he's very intelligent. He deals with people really, really well, and very, very mature.

16:11You know, I've got kids his age, and they're not that mature. I can tell you that for nothing. They wouldn't like to hear that, but they're not. Yeah, thanks, Dave. Do you agree with how you split it into thirds? The thing is that when we speak with Kimi, you know, we, and we are brutally honest when it's when it's good and when it's bad and then you remind yourself that you're not sitting opposite an adult kim is more a kid than an adult you have to remind yourself that he's just 19 yes he's a pro in the car and he's been karting all his life and and racing all his life but from the maturity we're expecting an acceleration of growth that is almost too difficult you know he's been thrown into this and i think when you look at some of the worst races it's just overwhelming i think the experience that he's making with all of the interest the media pressure they're writing you up and down you have an extremely quick and experienced teammate and he's still coping and i think that shows that he has great potential for the future because like how it says i mean when i was 19 i was a bit of an idiot i wouldn't have been able to cope with the pressures that he is.

17:21And that's why when I talk to him, I'm a little bit harsh with him. I need to almost take myself back and say, hold on a minute, he's a kid. And that's quite an interesting learning for us also. Was your relationship with him this year paternal? No, paternal is the wrong word. He has a dad and a great dad, super support from all of the family. They're typically Italian family that they, you know they stick together like glue the mother is fantastic so he doesn't need any parent because the parent is here i think what i need to be is to look after him here when he's within the racing team protect him from some of the missteps that he potentially could do or did guide put my arm around his shoulder when things are difficult but also be open and honest when things are not running well without ever giving him the feeling that this is a high-end fire institution that we are some of the other teams have been like that in the past and we've always said you know this is a development year so my role is you know i'm running mercedes i'm responsible for this brand in formula one and for the many people that work for it so i need to extract the best out of him in order for him to be successful in the car whilst always having an eye on him and considering that he's very young.

18:41He's a teenager. How important was it to get him in the car, get this debut season out the way before the reg changes in 26? I think what we know and what we've seen in the simulators is that next year is going to be different driving than this year. There's a lot to take in. There's a lot of new stuff to do. So I think it would be extraordinary, difficult for someone to step into that as their first year. So I'm pleased that he's done a year this year. Definitely. pleased that he knows the team is part of the team you know he's been up to bricksworth plenty of times we've been going through all the technical stuff that's going to be changing he's having his input in there so yeah i'm super pleased that he's been racing this year let's talk tech then the 2026 reg changes everyone's saying it's huge is it as big a change as 2013 to 2014?

19:35I think in the hardware, probably not as huge as that change. You know, when I remember back to when we were first talking about those regulations, the 2012, 2013 time, you looked at it and you thought, oh my God, there's stuff in here that we're genuinely inventing. That electric turbo, you know, running an electric motor at over 100 ,000 RPM and these things just didn't exist and we were having to invent that stuff that was a real you know what what a push and what an incredible project that was plenty of dips in the road but that was incredibly difficult from a hardware point of view I think from this 26 regulation set sort of any element within it you can take a battery you know we can take the electric motor 350 kilowatts they exist okay they don't exist in an F1 framework they don't exist in the right size the right shape, but they do exist.

20:33So in that way, this regulation set doesn't feel as big. But what is going to definitely change with this regulation set is the interaction with the driver because of the electrical aspects of it. We are generally going to be slightly energy limited. So it's going to be working with the driver to make sure they've got the right energy at the right time to defend, to attack, to go as quickly as they can. And it's definitely going to need some real thought from the driver and from the engineers around them to understand how to go racing and how to do this the right way and I think that is a bigger challenge than the one we faced in the similar area in in sort of 13-14.

21:15So a lot of interaction between race engineer and driver during the races? Potentially during the races but definitely beforehand you know far more than we have now and we already think crikey we got these guys coming in regularly and really talking to us this is great but i think for next year it's going to be even more and more the the link between uh the power unit the energy the car i mean the whole thing's so new um the the way that that's all put together is there's there's going to be tens of lap time in that how is the increase in the electrical side of the power unit going to affect performance are we going to see much greater torque i think the the sort of start of straight performance is going to be very very similar today.

21:58What we kind of potentially could be gaining from the electrical torque that of course is the other thing part of that is we've got the turbocharger that hasn't got an electric machine on it anymore so you could get some turbo lag and so we'll be filling in that turbo lag with electric potentially. So I think the in terms of sort of start straight the performance is going to be going to be pretty epic in comparison to what we've got today but we know we're going to start to derate earlier on the straight because we haven't got enough electrical energy to use it all the time. What about the sustainable fuel?

22:28How much of a step into the unknown is that? Yeah, I mean, that's the, when I said we weren't really inventing stuff, I kind of meant at Bricksworth, because that is an incredible project, just phenomenal project, complete step into the unknown. That's one of those ones where the regulators have gone, yeah, do that. I know it doesn't exist. I know it sounds impossible, but do that. Thank you very much, F1 Sport. We'll take the benefit of that, because you're making something incredible. Is the fuel going to be a performance differentiator? I mean, Toto, I don't know if you remember back in the day, I remember some of the smell of the fuel that was used 25 years ago in the pit lane.

23:08It was incredible. And there was a huge amount of performance in that. I think it could well be, especially perhaps in the early days, there could be performance in that. I think everyone will probably get to a similar stage at some point. I don't know if that's going to be before the first race or when that will be. an interesting thing that i'm not sure is also realized is put the um the fact that it has to be sustainable to one side the fuel regulations have actually changed more this year than probably have in the last 25 so it's an all new formulation and then just add on top of that it's got to be sustainable it's you know you have to um all the fuel companies you're going to have to lift your hat to them patronus for all the techie people watching and listening to this just how different are the fuel regs?

23:52Can you give us some octane numbers? I can't off the top of my head, but what they've done is put more constraints on the fuel, really, to make it far more based on a pump fuel. So there is the octane numbers. There are some other items that are far closer to a road car fuel. So some things we got away with in the past, we can't really get away with anymore. Toto, it's rare for Formula One to change chassis, fuel, and power unit all at the same time. Are you expecting a very different Formula 1 in 26? I think fundamentally it's going to land in a place where we are going to say that's different, but it's great.

24:33You know, the fuel story is amazing. You can see how ecstatic an engineer almost gets when you look at Howell. And with Patronus, we have a great partner, and they are excited about it as much as they, you know, look at it and say, blimey, hopefully this works. So we have this fuel that hopefully will make it into road cars. Because if you can demonstrate that in Formula 1, the Formula 1 car, the fastest car on the planet is fuel per sustainable fuel. Why can your road car not be? So that's the background a little bit. Then how I mentioned the engines. We will be having 50 % electric and 50 % combustion.

25:08We will be needing to compensate for a lack of electric power on every single lap, particularly on the ones with long straights. And I think what we're seeing now, the strategies, it almost adds like a little chess component. You know, where is the driver going to deploy his energy? Who is better prepared? And I think the generation sim driver will be in a good spot here. That's an interesting point. Do you think it'll favor maybe the younger drivers? Because that's what they've grown up doing. Well, the question is, what is younger drivers? You look at George and his generation, Max, they work on the simulator and they enjoy that.

25:46but it's their generation. So yes, I think whoever loves to be in the virtual world, be it on a rig at home or in a simulator in the factory, is going to have an advantage. The weight limit is coming down by 30 kilos. How difficult is it to make the weight? A big, big challenge. You know, that's definitely going to be a challenge, especially early on. You know, every time there's a weight regulation, it's the first few races, you're never quite sure where you are. The PU has a minimum mass, And that is a challenging mass, particularly on the electrical side. It's really the sort of battery and the power electronics that a big part of the competition there is to get as close to that minimum mass as you can.

26:29This episode is sponsored by Indeed. There's a lot that goes on behind the scenes of this show, booking guests across time zones, tight turnaround edits and constant time management. And when things get chaotic, you realise pretty quickly how important it is to have the right person on your team. If I had to hire someone tomorrow, I wouldn't just want a good editor. I'd want someone who understands pace in long-form interviews and can work fast under pressure. And in moments like that, you think, this is a job for sponsored jobs. Because Indeed Sponsored Jobs boosts your listing in search results, helping you reach the candidates with the specific skills and experience you actually need.

27:09And it works. Sponsored jobs posted directly on Indeed are 95 % more likely to report a hire than non-sponsored jobs. That's a serious edge when the pressure's on. Spend less time searching and more time actually interviewing candidates who check all your boxes. Less stress, less time, more results. When you need the right person to cut through the chaos, this is a job for Indeed Sponsored Jobs. And listeners of this show will get a$75 sponsored job credit to help get your job the premium status it deserves at indeed.com slash podcast. Just go to indeed.com slash podcast right now and support our show by saying you heard about Indeed on this podcast.

27:50Indeed.com slash podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Need to hire? This is a job for Indeed sponsored jobs. This episode is sponsored by Indeed. There's a lot that goes on behind the scenes of this show. booking guests across time zones, tight turnaround edits, and constant time management. And when things get chaotic, you realise pretty quickly how important it is to have the right person on your team. If I had to hire someone tomorrow, I wouldn't just want a good editor. I'd want someone who understands pace in long form interviews and can work fast under pressure. And in moments like that, you think, this is a job for sponsored jobs.

28:30Because Indeed Sponsored jobs boost your listing in search results, helping you reach the candidates with the specific skills and experience you actually need. And it works. Sponsored jobs posted directly on Indeed are 95 % more likely to report a hire than non-sponsored jobs. That's a serious edge when the pressure's on. Spend less time searching and more time actually interviewing candidates who check all your boxes. Less stress, less time, more results. When you need the right person to cut through the chaos, this is a job for Indeed sponsored jobs. And listeners of this show will get a$75 sponsored job credit to help get your job the premium status it deserves at indeed.com slash podcast.