A Carolyn Bessette-Kennedy Costuming Controversy and Brad Pitt’s Midlife Stylist

0:04Hello and welcome to Fashion People. I'm Lauren Sherman, writer of Puck's Fashion and Beauty Memo Line Sheet. And today with me on the show is Harper's Bazaar executive editor Leah Chernikoff. We're chatting about the Carolyn Bissett Kennedy costuming controversy, Brad Pitt in velvet, the cult of Doen and plenty more. Happy Tuesday, everyone. Monday was a big day at Line Sheet. Jeez, it was giant. Somehow I I kept it under 2 ,500 words, but it's crazy. So much going on. First off, Luca De Mio, believe that's how it will be pronounced. Luca De Mio was the CEO of Caring. Previously, he was the CEO of Renault, a French car maker that has essentially no presence in the US.

0:57It's luxury. And before that, he was at Fiat and Volkswagen. He's really a brand guy, an operator, all that stuff. I get into why I think they chose him to succeed Francois Henri Pinot as the CEO of Caring, who, by the way, created tremendous value at that company. They're struggling right now, but for the last 20 years has developed it and made it into something that I don't think anyone ever imagined it could be. I'm going to write a much bigger thing about that on Thursday, but really interesting. I'm excited. I was saying to our photo team this morning that I feel like I already know Luca.

1:34He has like a real face and a real presence. So I think this is going to be a really interesting chapter for the luxury industry and caring in particular. Otherwise, lots of stuff happening that Leigh and I are going to address in this conversation from Brad Pitt's new stylist situation, I would call it, to the California-based label Doen's funding realm. I wonder now that Doan, The Roe, and Stodd, all exceptional, truly one in a million businesses, have all raised funding if we're going to see more investment firms taking a chance on fashion once again. Who knows? Let's hope that they are as smart as the people who have invested in those three brands, which are all worthy.

2:17Also on Tuesday, Sarah Shapiro has an awesome interview with the CEO of Tucker Knuck, a brand I am totally obsessed with for seemingly no reason. But Sarah gets into it and it's fascinating. Let's get going with Leia. We have a lot to cover. Leia Chernikoff, welcome to Fashion People. Hello, Lauren Sherman. I am so thrilled to be here. How was your weekend? uh it was busy i was on the amtrak for a good bit of it which you know i enjoy the amtrak so i love the dc to new york route i love a northeast corridor have you noticed the wi-fi and not to jinx it but the wi-fi on those things including on airplanes has gotten significantly better at least in the us yeah it has i have i have noticed and so much easier adar could watch um netflix the whole time which was great it's like the perfect amount of wi-fi because he couldn't play roblox but he could watch netflix and he's watching that cat and sam sam and cat i was just gonna ask you what he's watching i'm trying to get fritz out of um out of this show he watches from Russia.

3:37There's a character named Leah. Did I tell you? No. It's YouTube. This is your, this is what you're going to have to deal with. Know me. He doesn't watch any Netflix or anything. He watches Bluey. And I thought I was so, I thought I was so, I was so smug because he doesn't watch on Peppa the pig or what's the other one that all the, that, oh patrol or any of that he's never but he watches the other one paw patrol and uh with with owlet and uh i who cares no one cares that's listening to this i know but i afterwards i'll tell you about these one is called helper cars and the other one's called leo the truck and one of leo's friends is named Leah.

4:29Love it. It's from Russia. Okay. We need to stop talking about this. It's totally fine. My husband's Googled it. It doesn't seem to be, it seems to be okay. So I, I saw something this weekend that is pertinent to our conversations. I went to go see, guess what I went to see on a date on Saturday night? The materialists. Of course. I haven't seen it yet. I hear great things. Celine Song's follow-up to Past Lives, starring Dakota Johnson, Pedro Pascal, and Chris Evans. It's worth it. This is what I will say. It is a very interesting movie that has a lot to say, and you will walk away with a lot of thoughts.

5:17the clothing and the, the, in both the, and the, and the apartments, like both the, the$12 million apartment and the$850 a month for a room apartment in Sunset Park are both worth looking at. And, and it's worth going to for that. It's also worth going to, to think about the story. I have a lot of notes that we don't need to get into here, but the clothing is very interesting. The guys are both dressed perfectly. There's a scene when Chris Evans leaves a bodega and he's wearing some t-shirt that I'm not cool enough to understand and black jeans and essentially Bally boat shoes. And it is the most perfect outfit I've ever seen.

6:06And then Pedro Pascal doll plays a hedge fund guy or private equity and he's dressed perfectly. Like they both look perfect. And she is wearing Dakota Johnson. I mean, is, is so beautiful. Top five right now of, of pretty people. Top five. Do you keep that list rotating? I would say it's, I'm, I like to make my list relevant to what's happening in culture. Um, she's just so pretty right now. She's looked amazing on this press tour, but she looks she looks really great and is wearing a lot of there's this blue dress that our our old colleague, Eliza Brooke wrote about in her newsletter. That Eliza, she's so great from Proenza Schooler that you can find on my Teresa's European site.

6:52I don't know if they'll ship to the US for like 400 bucks right now. So you should everyone should check it out. But there's also it's very what she's wearing is very corp core, like lots of suits. kind of girl boss 2.0 frankie shop but like a little bit more elevated a lot of suits she's apparently makes eighty thousand dollars and as a matchmaker living in new york city i don't think that number is correct but honestly i don't know could be i feel like people pay a lot for those kind of services to only make eighty thousand dollars a year oh i don't know maybe not that That seems crazy. She should be making$160 in that kind of situation, right?

7:37Once you see, this is why you need to see the movie, because once you see the apartment, you'll be confused by that salary. Got it. And also her wardrobe is really interesting. Did you know Celine Song was a matchmaker? I did, yes. It made me want to buy a cream silk blouse, which I did. And you can read all about it in Monday's issue of Line Sheet. Nice. A little affiliate link action. Yeah, yeah. We love our shop, Dot My. I'm looking up at the costume designer now. Her name is Katina Danabasis. Did she do her, did she do past slides also? I bet. Yes, she did. And she also did Bodies, Bodies, Bodies and Lady Bird.

8:24Oh, interesting. is she's she's has a really good sense and the way she dressed both guys there I'm having Becky Malinsky on in a few weeks to talk about the epidemic of men's clothing in America and how bad it's gotten um and both guys look really good it's worth seeing there's a lot to say about the clothes, but also just the ideas in it. It's very much, much for us. On to another media property that I would like to discuss with you. I can't wait. Did you see this weekend? There were stills released from American Love Story, Ryan Murphy Productions upcoming series that's coming out next year of John F.

9:11Kennedy Jr. and Carolyn Bissett Kennedy and the outrage both online and on my phone of people calling me. High level people, high level people being like, I'm very upset. Can you please fix this? I know people are very, very upset. So Leah, can you explain why people are upset? And then I can tell you a little bit of the reporting I did that I hope will make everyone feel a bit better for now. Okay, so these photos were released in advance of the new Ryan Murphy American love story of the actors who are going to be playing JFK Jr. and CBK, as we call her. And I think CBK is obviously kind of the ultimate mood board kind of icon.

10:06uh she is the essence of quiet luxury but cooler than that and um so i think there are a lot of you know fashion fanatics and fans of her style that were probably excited to see how it would be recreated for this show and i think you know people seem to have found it wanting or uh the everything from the shade of blonde of the actress's hair wrong shade of blonde wrong shade of blonde the birkin being wrong um 35 not a 40 and they didn't even they didn't even bother to fill it i i once did a story about this at l actually about like Like, why are all the bags empty on shows? Because it was about, anyway, another show.

11:06Scandal, I think. It's just like big bags and clearly like nothing was in them. And I was like, why is that happening? Just put stuff in them. Just put some stuff. And also JFK's fashion. Just the people are disappointed. But I guess the consensus within the Harper's Bazaar Fashion group chat was, well these are just test shots and it's not the official filming wardrobe so maybe there's reason to hope yes and this is incredibly pertinent to harper's bazaar in particular because i associate carolyn beset kennedy much more with 90s harper's bazaar than i do with american vogue as a student a scholar of that era of fashion yeah she was i was never a person who was like obsessed with them because I just don't do that.

11:58But, um, and I was never like, I didn't have a picture of her on my, you know, whatever, like mood board, but it has always been designers look to her, right? Like totally. Yeah. And also, I mean, who was I talking to who said they met with the row in the early, in the late two thousands and the entire mood board was Carolyn. I know I've heard that story too. Did we get it from Ruthie? um I don't know who you're talking about great I don't think so she'll love that um but I think I don't know I don't think it was Ruthie I think it was someone who went to meet with them like a buyer or something maybe I told you yeah or something to that effect from fashion east of days that I know this story okay I heard this more recently oh okay so so but I would say that like if if Carolyn Bessette Kennedy was still with us, she tragically died in a plane crash in 1999 with John F.

12:55Kennedy Jr. And that's what this Ryan Murphy show is going to be about in part. She would be a guest on the Goodbye Your podcast where you have these luminaries who talk about how they shop. But she was just she is her mother in law, Jacqueline Kennedy Onassis and Jane Birkin are the icons of fashion in so many ways. And also because she only lived for such a short time as an adult, there aren't that many photos of her. And it is the most recent. And, you know, fashion clothing, the way people dress, hasn't really changed since the early 90s. Like it hasn't. It's not like from the 70s to 80s there was a huge change.

13:36And from the 80s to 90s now, it hasn't really changed that much. the images of her are scrutinized like none other. And so, yes. So I did a little reporting background reporting on it. And what I found was these were most certainly publicity stills made to sort of shoo away the paparazzi as they start filming this week. So the idea was like, let's take the air out of what the paparazzi could get. That being said, there are two things that this indicates to me. This poor woman who's in this movie, I mean, it's going to change her life, Sarah Pidgeon. It's going to make her way more famous than she's ever been.

14:17But the blonde is not right. The clothing, not right. The bag, not right. The blonde is, to me, the biggest issue here. All of that said, I think what this should indicate, and Ryan Murphy has an incredible reputation in terms of costuming. His costume designer won for Feud for Capote. That's not easy to. Again, this stuff is scrutinized more because you can still buy Carolyn Bissette Kennedy, the same thing she wore, or you can even buy Sarah Stodinger just bought three pieces from the auction. Yeah, from Sotheby's. So like the thing I would say is this is just going to be really tough. And from what I know, they've engaged tons of consultants, including stylists, including people she was friends with, including people who are really high level in the fashion industry.

15:05And also a lot of some of these mood board accounts that, that follow her. So they are doing it. Why would, what I assume they got, they learned from this is, Oh, we really cannot get it wrong because people are going to flip. And I also, I would venture to say, I think this is going to be the biggest thing they ever do. Right. Oh yeah. I mean, think about the insanity around them as a couple. And also the fact that like, it's, it's like, Oh, it's more intense than princess Diana stuff in some ways that, that was, that there, there are American Royals, you know? Yes. And they also have not been portrayed before in a real way.

15:56I'm sure there's some made for TV movie, but, but, And I also think just they are poised for the internet in this moment. It's not as diffused as Diana and also Charles. It moved on and then there's Prince William and Kate and all these other and Meghan and Harry. This is just about them. So I just can't imagine what it's going to be like and how closely every single person who is connected to the fashion industry in any way or just follows it is going to be watching this. So I'm very curious to see, because the thing is with like Babe Paley, sure that you can nail that essence, but there's not going to be people who are like, they got this inch, the pant hem was an inch off, whereas this time there's going to be.

16:48So I think it's going to be incredibly popular and also be scrutinized like nothing else they've ever done. And so I'm really excited now. I am not someone who would have usually watched something like this, but now I'm going to like really, really go for it. What is your favorite Carolyn Bessette Kennedy look um let's see right do you have one off the top of your head i would say the white button down and the like that's like open i feel like that gets um talked about a lot um and mine is the v-neck sweater with the camel pencil skirt yeah i was gonna say where's the camel pencil skirt like that's what i was thinking of but i was getting what she paired it with kind of confused the the white shirt and skirt which i believe is junior yeah is um is a favorite of mine also and i also love there were these prada sandals that she she wore mostly prada shoes and there was a pair of prada sandals that i still look for and occasionally do come up on on resale sites because there weren't that many designer brands doing shoes then it was more like you were buying Manolo's and she wore a lot of Prada shoes and and so all of them but I would say that that camel that black v-neck sweater and the camel skirt is something I think about a lot yeah and then of course her wedding dress oh yes yeah Narciso yeah put Narciso Rodriguez But there's so much.

18:40I'm really excited for it.

19:18Moving on to a living legend, Brad Pitt. Yes. Brad Pitt. What do you want to say about Brad? Brad Pitt has always been into fashion. You know, he has his own cashmere brand, God's true cashmere. He has a partner in it who runs it, but he is a partner in a cashmere brand. He is very interested in architecture and design. I think he does ceramics too, like so many of his peers. That sounds right. This weekend, and he always looks good. even what you know he wears a lot of he wears a lot of custom stuff by this designer named hans who does like jeremy succession jeremy jeremy strong uh he he this guy is is really interesting he Brad Pitt let me look up he a Haas Nicholas Mott who who has he does have a sort of ready to wear brand that sold it like Blue Mountain School that type of thing but mostly does custom stuff and he's he's really interesting I think a great designer you can tell that they collaborate a lot fame Brad Pitt famously doesn't have a stylist he uses George Cortina for for red carpet good stuff.

20:48But this weekend he was out and about. He's going to be promoting F1, his new film. Yes. Are you excited for more, Brad? I don't. I'm fine. You're fine. Are you going to? I'm interested in F1 because of the fashion industry's investment in F1. Yeah. And I care about what people care about. But I'm not like going to run out to see it the first weekend it's out. I'll probably just no I sort of meant are you excited for more Brad out and about wearing crushed blue velvet Willie Chavaria blazers well I'm interested I think his wife I mean I think I think his girlfriend Inez who actually works at Anita Co a fine jewelry brand and is is pretty senior there is really beautiful and seems interesting and I like seeing people out and about on on dates this weekend Brad went out twice with her in anticipation or three times in anticipation for this film launch so they're doing more today there's just gonna be tons of promo this week and the first night he wore this satin shirt that Vogue called Fabio-esque which I thought was brilliant and a pair of velvet ripped jeans and square toe shoes and then the next night he wore a Willie Chavarria runway look like a crushed velvet, really strong shoulder jacket.

22:16Um, and this is more, this is trendy fashion. And what I was able to unearth is that he is working. Did you see the tie-dye look? Yes. And then there was a tie-dye look. What I was able to find out is that he's working with Taylor McNeil, who is Timothee Chalamet and Kendrick Lamar and Timotee Chalabase. Oh, she is the menswear force. Yeah. So my understanding is they're not like Brad is styling himself, but they are working together, which whatever that means, should they're working together, which is interesting. I am obsessed with Yeah. Yeah. I think she's she's she is someone who is really make like making waves in terms of making the clothes the conversation and unafraid to push what fashion for men can be.

23:19What did you think of Brad's turn as a as a lobbyist for the velvet industry? oh i mean is for big velvet sure i think he's getting the funds i don't know i still think he can pull off whatever i i to to your point about taylor neal i i also think what she's really like canny about is she creates looks that kind of um come to dominate the cultural conversation but she also but it's never it's she never does it to the point where like the clothes are wearing them yeah you know she is putting people in things that i mean brad is honestly like the first one where i'm like push it's pushing it i think but like kendrick looks so natural what he wears those bootcut jeans like everything that happened and that kind of spiraled out of the super bowl and like timothy can wear whatever but he does look really cool all the time and i think that's thanks to her she also does lord it's um yes it's like they just look like they're kind of the coolest version of themselves and there's not doesn't feel like there's a lot of effort it's like a very kind of subtle and but brad is i don't know pushing it but it's fun it's fun to watch men try wearing things and he's always fun to look at yeah you know how who else she also works with is Daniel Craig, which is, which is, I think the, the through line with all the people that this is what I wrote in line.

25:00She not Monday is that all of the people who she's working with have taste, like they have an interest in this stuff. And so it's not like she's just putting clothes on them. Like Timothy Chalamet obviously is interested in fashion. His is more a little more confusing. And I think that's because he's young. So he's sort of like, if you look at someone like Daniel Craig or Kendrick in particular, or Lord, they really know who they are. So it like, and that comes out and she's able to do that. There are some stylists who are really have great. They have a great sense of fashion and they can put fashion on someone who looks like a model and they look good.

25:42There are some stylists who have no sense of fashion, but know what looks good on people's bodies. And then there are these stylists who like understand that if you put someone in something, you can actually create a conversation. And Brad Pitt right now needs to create a conversation that moves away from the sort of tabloidy stuff that he's been dealing with in recent years. Also, this is a big starring role. He's done a more character acting in recent years, I'd say. And so and also he's dating this younger person and whatever. It does feel like this was done very specifically on purpose. Again, he usually doesn't work with a stylist.

26:29He doesn't have a publicist. Like he is his own person. And so but I would say with Timothy and Brad, you can tell they're like going through some, a transformation in the way she's working with them. And so who knows, it might be a thing where they never do anything together again, but this weekend was a nice moment in the trajectory of Brad Pitt. I'd say. I also think we're sort of following. And and the NBA playoffs. Like we're just, we're on a good wave of like men having fun with fashion. and yeah um scars guard with his sort of like method carpet dressing and then like timothy's courtside style um it's just and pedro pascal too his his kind of looks for materialists and and like everyone kind of losing it about that sleeveless top um the men are having fun and fun to watch a Coleman Domingo.

27:33Oh yeah. Coleman Domingo always looks amazing. Pedro Pascal is styled by friend of the podcast, Julie Regolia. And she also, she's, she's great. She just really gets it. She does a lot. She styles the Xenia show and she just has such a great sense of, of menswear in particular, but I would love, I'm sure she works with some women. I don't think that celebrity styling is her sort of first thing she does. I think from what I remember, Pedro is like an old friend of hers. And she does do a couple of other men on a regular basis. But I would love to see her style a few women for red carpet because she just has such a great sense.

28:18And yeah, you're right. It's just a really fun. It's a fun time in men's fashion, whereas... you know, women's is, is it's, it's, we're back, we're back, but it was, it was dragging for a little bit.

28:39On a totally different subject. I wanted to briefly acknowledge that Leonard Lauder, who is sort of the father of the modern beauty industry died this weekend. He was 92. He only recently, I would say in the last year or so, stepped down from his role on the board of Estee Lauder companies, which his mother was Estee Lauder, but he really built that group into, I was talking to Rachel Streatz about it this morning and kind of figuring out how she's going to write about it. It wasn't like she, a lot of the beauty reporters knew him really well. Rachel started covering beauty about 10 years ago and it sort of like his generation of his, the next generation of executives is her generation of people.

29:34But, um, you know, it is, it's, it's been, I covered Estee Lauder a little bit when I worked at business as a fashion and here at puck and have just always been interested in it because I'm interested in brands and groups that own a lot of brands and how they manage themselves. And Rachel's coverage of that business the last year has just been remarkable. But as someone, you've been covering fashion and beauty for 15 years at least. Thinking about the way the beauty industry works and how he engaged so closely with journalists what was what's your like takeaway of the impact that he's had on how the way we all look oh well that's a big question I do think a beauty a beauty a long-time beauty editor reporter is better suited to answering it but I think um when you talk about people shaping brands and the way um that I think beauty is such a giant industry and it still seems like everyone is trying to be estee lauder um yeah and i think that's just an astonishing legacy and more than that he was just such a like his legacy broadly and also in terms of um the arts and philanthropy is just so large and um you know what a life what a life it's a really incredible company that you know there there isn't a real book about estee lauder and rachel will never write it because she's she doesn't want to write a book i understand it's not fun it's just a really hard to a different deadline yeah but it would be good and and it would be really fun to read rachel just saying Yes, Rachel, you should write it.

31:39But there are like multiple books about that company that need to be. Yeah. So I hope someone is someone is on it. Were they were they one of the first brands to start acquiring and building a portfolio to in that way? Yeah, they were really early. They bought Bobby Brown really early. They bought Mac. That's how they and John Dempsey, a longtime executive there who we all know who's now advising Al Catterton on different things. And he, yeah, in the, in the nineties, it was this, I mean, if you look at the luxury industry in Europe and you look at beauty, it's a similar trajectory. It was really at the same time they started acquiring brands.

32:22And the difference with beauty, I would say, versus like an LVMH or caring is that beauty tends to cycle brands in and out. So you acquire something and then eventually you sometimes you close it or you sell it to someone else. The luxury brands in Europe have not done that as much as the beauty brands have. But yeah, it really is the model. I was thinking about Estee a lot when Elf acquired Road. Right. I was just thinking that Elf and Road and you think about Estee and Clinique and like how far back that kind of legacy goes of like that kind of skin skincare first, also with Glossier, but that that kind of beauty brand.

33:03Yes, it really is. The proto Clinique is really the proto Glossier. I feel like Emily Weiss said that to me at some point in some interview that she really looked at the three step system of of Clinique. But yes, so all of this stuff and and understanding also what was happening in the culture and what kinds of brands, the launch of Tom Ford Beauty totally changed the game. And the other big thing, and this is something that you're right, like Sarah Brown has a lot more to say. And you all should look at like Sarah Brown's post about Leonard. this was a person that people really cared about and and really valued as a human being so it's just an interesting interesting story but yes like those it really was when you think of elf and what they're building and acquiring road acquiring my old colleague susan yara's brand that i don't even nutria nutrium i think it's called or something i love that you know she You know, she worked with me at Forbes.com.

34:12She was the health reporter. I did not. Good for Susan Yarrow. I know. I'm so happy for her. She was always so lovely. Anyway, very interesting. Rachel will have something on Wednesday kind of looking at this in a way that only she can because we don't need to do another, you know. Naturium. Naturium, yes. Congrats, Susan. Yeah. I hope you're really rich. I believe you are. I think she is. Anyway, good for her. The final thing I wanted to talk to you about is the scoop I had on Monday that there should be, I believe there will be more later this week from other folks. But Do-En. Yes, I was waiting to find out why we were going to be talking about Do-En.

35:03No, Do-En raised a Series A round of funding. Oh. and it was led by this uh consumer investment fund that does kind of earlier stage growth investments they call it and then venture investments is called um silas it's an investment firm based in new york they are investors in rose hair care and oak essentials the jenny kane beauty thing and and some fashion brands too but they led this funding round and And the people at Doan confirmed that it was happening and confirmed the annual revenue this year is projected at$100 million in net sales, which is a lot even for a 10-year-old brand. I was able to find that they raised approximately about$25 million at a very high valuation north of 200 million.

35:59So that's like almost three times net sales. That's pretty high for an apparel brand. I think it's understandable why. It's a really, really tightly run company that raised under a million dollars before this. Yeah, I was wondering what, like this is series A, how how common is it that a brand is waiting 10 years to fundraise very uncommon especially with a brand that had so much traction so early so shows a lot of discipline yeah with the executive team and founders the cleveland sisters their other co-founders and then also their president holly who who worked at frame denim and theory and and worked they all worked at this company called Dutch LLC, which owned equipment and current Elliot and a bunch of things.

36:55They all work there together. So it's an interesting, they must've learned a lot at Dutch of how to run a business, but they, you know, the thing that, and I, I looked at the story I wrote at business of fashion in 2019 about like the crisis of American fashion. It was the beginning of a new New York fashion week. And it was kind of like, no one cares about American brands. Nobody's showing And my sort of anecdote was like, sure, there aren't like a bunch of big fashion shows this week, but you know what is happening? The Doe N sample sale. Yeah. I had someone write about that too, because it was wild.