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0:04Hello and welcome to Fashion People. I'm Lauren Sherman, writer of Pucks Fashion and Beauty memo line sheet. And today with me on the show is Michael Grynbaum, author of Empire of the Elite Inside Cade Das, the media dynasty that reshaped America. We're talking about what else? Magazines. Before we get going, I wanted to remind you that if you like this podcast, you'll definitely love Puck where I send an email called Line Sheet. If you're a fashion person, you get that reference. It's an original look at what's really going on inside the fashion and beauty industries. Line Sheet is scoopy, analytical, and above all, fun.

0:44Along with me, a subscription to Puck gains you access to an unmatched roster of experts reporting on powerful people and companies in entertainment, media, sports, politics, finance, the art world, and much more. If you're interested, listeners of Fashion People get a discount. Just go to puck.news slash fashion people to join Puck or start a free trial. Happy Friday, everyone. Hope you had a great week. I'm having a really nice time in Los Angeles. I'm going to try to see as many people as I can, but I have to be honest, I'm feeling extremely overwhelmed. I'm a person, I am an extrovert when I am putting it out there.

1:22when I am being called upon, I become an introvert. It hasn't happened in a really long time. But if I don't see you on this trip, I'll see you on the next trip anyway. Not really shopping either. So we can't go shopping. But I did pick up some Nike skims because on my shopping freeze that I'm on with a few friends, we are allowed to shop vintage, which I basically only shop vintage, so it's really cheating, and workout clothes. And I have bought a couple vintage things, but mostly I bought some Nike skims. Going to see how they work. I'm going to take them to burn tomorrow, see if I feel better in my Nike skims.

2:05Anyway, this week in line sheet, we've got it all. Preview of Gap Beauty, which launched on Thursday, a deep dive on Regent, the company that owns Bally, and Petit Bateau. Sorry, guys. That one stinks. Bally's going bankrupt in Switzerland right now. And I have all these details on the guy who owns Regent Michael Reinstein. It's a very interesting story. Bally's just the beginning. He owns many companies you've heard of. Please read. It's in Thursday's issue. But yeah, there's just been a lot happening. Malik had a take on the Sheehan IPO in Hong Kong that's going to happen. I have an interview with Hallie from Reformation.

2:47which IPO'd on Thursday. And of course, this was Luxury Earnings Week. It was like a super week. Lucas Solka, the Bernstein Analyst, and Superstar, Line Sheet, and Puck, and Fashion People Superstar will be on next week. Will be on Fashion People next Friday to break it all down. But I'd say like my big, the lesson for me, and I think for all of us, is this is the new normal. Things are getting better. caring turnaround, LVMH turnaround. In the end, you could argue, but yes, things are getting better. Whatever's happening, things are getting better. But the crazy growth is over. And honestly, I think that's for the better.

3:32I think engineering growth is bad. Just natural, organic growth of a business that is already consolidated is better. Anyway, also a big announcement from me. is that we are going to do the first mailbag episode of Fashion People. So I've done these in line sheet where it's like a Q &A where people write in and ask me questions. I do a little reporting or just give my opinion. Rachel's done them. Malik will be doing more of those in line sheet. But we do. I've never done one on Fashion People. And I think mostly because I want people to pay for it. But I think it's time. and so I'm going to do one in mid-August with a very special guest arguably the most popular fashion people guest a recurring guest not Becky Malinsky and not Marissa Meltzer so you can and it's a guy but that's all I'm going to say for now please I'm going to keep a surprise you can guess who it is anyway send me questions if you can and but please email them to lauren at puck.news That's my email address.

4:42You could DM me on Instagram. I am on Instagram a lot. It's hard to like surface things. Whereas if you send it and you say mailbag issue, I'll put it in the folder that goes in there or mailbag episode or whatever. It will just be easier. I'm happy to chat with you on Instagram. I like engaging, but I think for this, in this case, please email. And until then, enjoy this conversation with Michael, who is simply the best. Michael Grimbom welcome back to fashion people Lauren Sherman thank you for having me I love being here what'd you have for breakfast this morning so I had a workout this morning so I had a very uh workout oriented food start to my day I had coffee and drank a bunch of water And then I don't know if this is really recommended, but I like having some sugar to get some energy before my workout.

5:40So I had a few hazelnut wafers. Hey, the hazelnut has protein and also you're skinny. You can do whatever you want. I just like having a little burst of calories like before I work out. I don't think it's really widely recommended, but it is what it is. And then I came home and I'm drinking a protein shake. so my protein so this is a new kick for me this whole the whole protein thing and my colleagues on the media desk at the times are like so ben mullen my my other colleague i don't think he'll mind if i say that say this but he's also um into exercise and protein so the two of us will like trade thoughts about this and we've been accused of bringing the manosphere into the office.

6:30The two of you bringing the manosphere into the office is the best way for the manosphere to come into the office. It's a New York Times approved version of the manosphere. And I do think, yes, and they're getting a little sick and tired of our discussions about leg day. So that is, yes, that is my exercise world right now. But that was my breakfast this morning. Really quickly on the protein stuff. Do you feel like it's making it easier for you to build? Because my husband is also on this beat. I don't want to brag, but I build muscle very easily. So I do not need to take extra protein. My leg muscles are like, I don't need to do a leg day.

7:11But my husband is very into it as well. And he like really, he's like on a mission to get jacked. And do you feel like you have to actually have like, do you feel like making sure you have the protein is making it easier for you to build muscle or not? I think it has helped me build muscle mass. But I also think it's kind of just a good and I'm not like hitting the numbers that everyone says I'm supposed to be hitting. But I actually think it's just a good way to kind of orient my daily eating. Like I feel like I'm having healthier lunches and healthier dinners. Like I just like eat a lot of grilled chicken.

7:51And yeah, it's very filling. I feel like I'm eating less dessert, like I'm snacking less because I feel more full. So even if it's not, you know, I can't say exactly that it's directly correlated with the muscles, but I think it's just made me like a healthier eater and I feel better. That's great. Yeah, that's really good. I'm down with it. One more food and wellness thing and then we'll get into Conde, which, you know, RIP Self Magazine or whatever happened to it, but we could talk about that in a minute. I'm holding a bottle. I just came back to LA for a few weeks from Europe and we were talking about the European lifestyle versus American.

8:30Have you tried this? I'm holding up a bottle of Lunen water. Have you tried this water? I have not tried Lunen, but I feel like it literally comes up at every single dinner and lunch that I attend. It is so good. I am obsessed with this water. Lauren, please enlighten me and the listeners as to what makes this water different from all other waters. Okay, so my husband has this newsletter called The New Consumer, and it's more of a media company. He does a lot of speaking engagements and stuff and does surveys with this investment firm, Coefficient Capital. But anyway, he just did an interview with her, and we have a lot of friends who are randomly investors in Lunan.

9:12Honestly, I don't remember. Read the article about – I've been thinking about this a lot. What makes water taste good? I am not – this is the same issue I have with wine. I know what I like and when I have a sip of wine I'm like yes I like this and I don't I know what I don't like like there I don't like really floral wines I like very acidic wine that kind of tastes like grapefruit and I a red I like a obviously like a basic girl juicy red but also can do like something a little more sophisticated on a red I don't know how to describe these things to people I've tried many different ways. I write down things.

9:51Why this water tastes so good? I used to be a really big fan of flow water, which is Canadian. And it's a spring water from like Canadian Springs or something. It's also delicious. The packaging of flow is not ideal. It's a box and you miss some of the water and the cap gets messed up. The industrial design is not good. these Lunen waters are in glass bottles and it's just so easy to drink and it is so delicious um I am just completely obsessed with it and I'm so glad it's not in Europe and the other thing is in Europe they only drink mineral water because buying a bottle of water for the table is so cheap they think you're crazy to wear like I always order tap water because I like I like the taste of tap water.

10:40But this water is like, it's just so delicious. I've been having a bottle a day since we got here. And it's really expensive if you buy it at like Meadow Lane. But if you buy it at a normal like Whole Foods or whatever, it's normal priced of a bottle of water. But there's just something about it that quenches my thirst more than like Evian or whatever. Have you sought out the services of a water sommelier? No, but I would do that. Where can I find one? I have not myself, but I feel like I have read various trend stories about them. And it has made me think about my own water preferences because I, and maybe this is now like a basic preference, but I do love Evian.

11:27I like it too. I like it too. It's sort of like a thick taste. Does that make any sense? Yes. It tastes thicker. like it has more like a almost like a umami kind of yeah feel mouth feel to it as the sommelier might say and i find it very satisfying yeah it has minerals so i'm sure that's part of it i i don't know what makes my husband maybe said this water tastes round it has the contents are spring source water calcium chloride magnesium sulfate celtic sea salt celtic sea salt celtic sea salt potassium carbonate anyway lauren why why in this moment of wellness obsession where this is just like everyday dinner table conversation yeah has self magazine been demolished by condé nest because they had such an incredible brand that and the history of self magazine goes back to 1979 when people were first jogging and getting into personal fitness and personal training and it had this great pedigree to it.

12:34And I feel like I don't understand, and I do not actually think it was the fault of the editors or the staff that were at Self Magazine, but it feels like it missed this opportunity to really take a very forward position in that wellness media space. And unfortunately, it's no longer with us. Yeah, it's a great point. So can you, we are, we're doing a check-in on Condé because your book, Empire of the Elite, is coming out in paperback and with an afterword kind of catching us up on the past year. So tell me exactly what Condé Nast, the legacy publisher of The New Yorker and Vogue and Vanity Fair, tell me what they decided to do with Self and then I can tell you what I think they did wrong with it for the last 10 years because I have an opinion on that.

13:25Well, just to say about the book, I had such a great reaction from line sheet readers and fashion people listeners. And so I want to thank you and your audience again for being so supportive of it. Empire of the Elite is a cultural history of Conde Nast kind of tells the story of the company going back 100 years, how all of these magazines were created and sustained and rose and in some cases fell. and I think it's also kind of a fun way to think about the role of glossy magazines today and what the role of cultural gatekeepers are in our internet age and I the book came out almost exactly a year ago and Anna Wintour changed jobs at Vogue like two weeks before my publication date which was fantastic publicity thank you Anna very thoughtful of you to have done that very thoughtful It also rendered my book instantly obsolete as to all these big changes that had happened at Condé Nast.

14:31Kind of a problem that all book authors have, nonfiction book authors have to deal with. And so on the occasion of the paperback coming out, which is now available everywhere, and hopefully in some airports, I feel like it's a fun beach vacation read, just to get my plug in early, I was able to write a whole new chapter at the end, kind of an epilogue that catches everybody up on all these changes, because we've had changes at Vogue and Vanity Fair and GQ. and one thing that happened a few months ago is that self magazine which dated back to 1979 and had kind of a long history as condes leading wellness and health and fitness title was shut down and the reasoning from conde from roger lynch the conde ceo was just that you know, it was a title, I think, I mean, he didn't quite say this, but it's sort of become a minor Condé title.

15:30And I think they're trying to concentrate more on their core magazines. And I think they had kind of just left let self wither a bit. I mean, I do think that fitness and wellness coverage had migrated into places like Vogue that are, you know, more health conscious and kind of writing about diet trends and fitness trends. It's something that you see, say, in the cut all the time. I think that more general interest style publications kind of absorbed health and fitness coverage. And I do wonder if that left self kind of a little betwixt and between where were people going to kind of go to an entirely separate publication that, by the way, I don't think had been published in print for several years.

16:16Yeah. It's basically a website. and this was back in April, and it was around the same time that Glamour, we can get to Glamour later, but also got hollowed out by Condé, and it was kind of the end, really, of these two pretty legendary Condé Nast brands that maybe didn't have a place remaining for them in the ecosystem of magazines that we have today. Yeah, I think a good sort of prepper is to listen to Linda Wells's, the founding editor and former editor of Lure magazine, and her experience at Condé Nast, especially at the end, I don't know if they got into this as much. She did that Print is Dead Long Live Print podcast, which I love that has the idiotic name.

16:58And I don't know if they're still publishing. It's such a good podcast. But she talked a lot about like the sort of ebb and flow of advertisers because of the way she ran that magazine, which was like pretty damning to the beauty industry sometimes, but also needed them to fund the magazine. So it was interesting. And I think she gives a good, because I think she left there around 2016. But to me, the thing that with those titles, Glamour, Self, and Allure, which is still around, but probably because there is more luxury beauty advertising. But basically when the bottom fell out on CPG marketing, because those companies just stopped advertising as much with magazines because they were just doing direct-to-consumer, even more than luxury brands.

17:50Luxury brands, there's a lot more just – they don't need to advertise in these magazines, but they do it because it doesn't cost them that much money in the grand scheme of things, and it's a relationships thing. I don't know if the next generation of executives running this business, luxury businesses will average i mean they've already pulled back tremendously that's why these magazines are are in is failing but if you have luxury and you can reach older people you have you can still have a print magazine or or you can still have a glossy magazine that does that does okay um i think that it just the c when cpg stopped like i've talked about this with high level publishing executives.

18:37It was just like those kinds of brands were over. And the problem was, they didn't, they also didn't understand like that the medium is I guess the this is the right idiom, the medium was the message, like all that information was suddenly available on Instagram, or now TikTok or whatever, like you just get, you get your info of like how to blow out your hair on TikTok. And combined with that, like the general interest, there still is a need for it from a general interest, because a general interest has a real point of view. It's not just like, I am a beauty magazine, I'm a fashion magazine. It's like, I am New York magazine, I'm the cut, I have like a specific angle.

19:19And so I think they could, a great example is Gia Tolentino just did this piece on, it was kind of a follow-up to Instagram face about like half facelifts and like how scary people look now and the sameness and this sort of crisis. And she had mentioned a piece that ran in New York Magazine about these deep, plain facelifts. And so I think by Bridget Reed, that's two examples of things that 20 years ago would have probably more ran in a lore or self or whatever. And now the conversation is between the New Yorker and New York Magazine. So I think like, it's a combination of there not being space for these sort of there, there isn't a need for something that's like so basic, and then also no advertisers to back it up.

20:16I think it also like a longer cosmic sense it's almost a victim of its own success. Because when Self Magazine started, there really wasn't any sort of clearinghouse for this kind of health and fitness advice. And that has become so mainstream now. I feel like it's part of every conversation. I mean, you know, we could listen to Ha Long Gone and listen to Chris, you know, talk about, you know, wellness and fitness. I mean, it's kind of like just like part of our culture in such a ubiquitous way that, you know, unless you're going to have a really specific angle. Like, I kind of actually love what Linda does with the airmail look newsletter because it's super high end.

20:56So great. You get a little bit of like that frisson of like the luxury, you know, facelift plastic surgery, like fitness world. And it's kind of provocative and a little edgy. And I think Self Magazine, which was like a pioneer in this space, just kind of, you know, it's just available everywhere now. And like, you know, you don't really need to go that as a separate destination. Yes.

21:27So that was one thing that happened this year. And it was also, there have been for years, there's been speculation that Roger was going to sell Self and Glamour. I've heard many times this year that he's tried to sell Glamour. They say that that's not true. whatever like it's he's someone's trying to sell something send me the pitch deck though people then i can do do more on it but um but and i want to shout out to my colleague sapna mashwari who did actually kind of a very sneakily incisive story in june um it's worth looking up in the new york times at glamour uh skeleton crew churns out shopping links and even though officially, Conde was saying that, well, Glamour is still around.

22:14And this was right after Sam Barry, the editor-in-chief, got kicked out of there. And Sapna kind of pointed out that it did kind of become something of a zombie website that was basically shopping affiliate links, and there's basically almost no full-time staff remaining. And that's pretty striking, too, because as you and I know, you know, Glamour magazine for years, for decades was like the moneymaker at Condé Nast. I mean, in the 80s and 90s, you know, Glamour, which was pitched to a slightly more mass audience, it was hugely profitable and honestly paid for a lot of those incredible photo shoots that were in vogue and Vanity Fair because kind of the workhorse of Glamour magazine was making a ton of advertising revenue.

23:05And it's really striking and a real statement about, you know, where the business is that that Glamour has just become kind of a shell of what it was. Yeah, and it's a similar situation where it was just too broad. And I think when they, when Cindy left, they didn't think about like, what, what should it be? And, and also sometimes brands just should die like or or be or go dormant vanity fair was dormant for what how many decades like this is 60 years yeah sometimes it it should just end and i think like that's the thing that a lot of it's an issue in the fashion industry but has been an issue in publishing where you're kind of trying to hold on to something and they they couldn't help i don't know with glamour like what do you do I don't know you can't you can't really make it like the cut you can't really um I think about something like a lucky magazine I worked there for a couple of years and it was a similar thing where I was just I remember even like the week I started I was like there's no way this can can be a thing anymore and that's I wonder yeah it's just interesting because it did go from glamour weren't they on the top floor i remember that too like they had the best floor and that was like the signal that it was the most successful even though it was not given as much um weight it definitely not in the fashion industry but but just generally in the building it never had the same cachet and super exclusive gloss that the other titles had But it was also kind of a training ground, actually, for a lot of editors who kind of got their start there.

24:52I think Cy Newhouse himself was a marketing director at Glamour when he needed to learn the ropes of the business when he was, you know, 25 years old. so it has a great history but you know lauren i mean you're right i mean it's not like even a great history and a great nostalgia for these titles doesn't mean that they have a right to exist forever especially when their niche is sort of diffused through the culture and i think one thing we should talk about and i mean you know i think there's arguments on both sides but and and by the way condé hasn't really said this to me because they're they tend to be as you know a little reticent to publicly discuss their strategy.

25:31But, you know, is there wisdom to shutting down some of the B tier titles and in a time where you're trying to do more with less, focus more of your resources and your money on kind of a core portfolio of brands that are cutting through the still have a certain cachet still have a real recognition in the culture. And I think there's a wistfulness that glamour, which probably meant a lot to a lot of readers for many years, isn't really able to sustain itself. But maybe that's to the benefit of Vogue. It's to the benefit of GQ and these other titles that, you know, want more attention paid to them.

26:11Yeah, I think it is the right strategy. I think the question for me right now with Condé Nast is, it's the right strategy in most kind of the setup of focusing on these core titles. And we should talk quickly about Bon Appetit because this is one that I'm like, what are they doing? It's truly killing me. But I always thought that that was going to be of the marquee it would be because food culture is so huge. And it was that Bon App, I sat with, I was at a dinner last night. I went to like a random dinner for, it wasn't random, but it was for the Lumens, the lighting e-commerce. You know, between Lumen and Lunen.

26:56I know. I don't know what I'm doing. I mean, I'm just back in LA having a great time. But I sat there, Andy Baragani, and I was like, you know, that will go down in history as like a really important cultural thing. I loved Bonap for that decade. Like it was so special and so important and it's lost that. But, but, and I don't think it's the same situation as self. I think it could have, it could be great still. but but the point being like is the strategy that they have right now and I want to talk about events in particular because their competitor I guess you could say Hirsch just hired this person to run content but also experiential and and get way more into experiential but um is their strategy the strategy to focus on the core brands yes that makes sense to me are they doing enough with the core brands to keep the core brands strong.

27:54And I think that is, do they have the right people running them? Is the content around them right? And then also the event strategy seems to be the thing that they are the best at. But we know that events are amazing. They tend to not be very profitable. You can make a lot of money on them, but to make a big profit on them is not easy. And they're definitely not scalable. So does that matter to Condé Nast? And is it just a brand preservation thing? But like, what is Vogue? What is GQ? What is Vanity Fair? Like, is it the party? Is it Vogue World? Or is it a publication that people are like, I still need?

28:35Or publications in the wrong word, like an authority figure? Is it still that? And are these events making it an authority figure? And does that really matter? I think if the new houses really want to keep Condé Nast as they claim they do, it does matter. But, you know, anyway. So I think those are the central questions, right? Like, what are these brands today? And what do they represent? And what is their future? And of course, this is always the conversation around Condé Nast. Because, I mean, you and I talk about this, Lauren, but like when you do columns on Condé, I feel like you get such a huge response from your readers.

29:14Like there is still such a sense of ownership people have, like they really care about the fate of these magazines, despite the fact that, you know, print is dead and Conde is a dinosaur. I mean, the attention that this company still receives is just, you know, pretty, it's pretty astounding, really. Yep, it is wild what a grip these brands have on my readership, which is like a mix of people who work there and fashion industry people, but also Hollywood and a little finance. And like, I get the puck people who are just love puck mix. So like people who work in politics or whatever, I will get messages and a lot.

30:05The Condé stuff really like is emotional. It's maybe not the most read, but it's often converts well. Because people are like, yes, I would like to know. And it's the most discussed, even if people aren't even reading it. I mean, how, you know, people who haven't subscribed to Vogue in years and years are still interested in the choice, you know, who's on the cover and what's going on with the Mac Gala and like that conversation. It still feels like, you know, a lot of the sort of fashion media internet is sort of, you know, it's it's a these debates spring out of the choices that are being made by Conde Nast, even though these magazines are still read by like a smaller and smaller elite group.

30:50I want to talk about actually, I mean, when I put this book out last summer, you know, it was kind of a nostalgic book. A lot of it's about kind of the peak 90s years of Condé Nast. And, you know, I really didn't know what kind of response I would get. I figured people in their 50s and 60s would be interested. But it was amazing to me how many like 20-somethings were showing up in my readings, coming out, you know, sending me messages talking about how fascinated they were by this book. And part of it was just kind of a wide-eyed look at the excess and glamour of that era. And like, it was such a sexy time to be in magazines and the culture of the place was unique and hilarious and bizarre.

31:29But I also think that it reflects this kind of yearning that people still have for gatekeepers in our culture and looking for expert advice and authenticity and expertise in a moment where everyone can present themselves as kind of being knowledgeable. And I have, even in the years since the book has come out, I've been very interested in kind of this kind of young person's market for vintage magazines and for print, like, you know, quarterly, one-off print publications. There is a store called High Valley Books in Greenpoint, Brooklyn, that is this like incredible treasure trove of vintage art, fashion, design magazines.