Are the Men Okay?

35:39And no matter what you think about those brands, like they are trying tacky or not to preserve the brand and then also investing heavily in the creative person. So like we can talk about Celine and Michael Ryder, which I think is the sort of platonic ideal of how a brand can work in 2026 and not totally lose its soul. I mean, Celine doesn't really have a soul generally, so it does, but you know what I mean? Like you feel, um, but I think that the question for DeMeo is like letting people loose is what makes you a bunch of money in some ways. Like if you give someone creative reign and they're good, it explodes and becomes like someone said to me the other day, Michael Ryder would have been so good at Gucci.

36:30Like before when the, instead of having Sabato, they should have hired Michael Ryder because Gucci was moving in a direction that needed to be preppy. Like it felt like it needed to be preppy and he would have been amazing. But, um, but the point being that like, you're right. If, if Luca, if Luca proves that he, this is just like fashion is just CPG now and you can just make stuff and it's, it's really standardized and that can be successful, then the creative people are going to lose out. But I think what they're going to end up finding is if you look at the most successful brands right now, Chanel, Prada, Miu Miu to an extent, Versace, it was all because the creative people were given like some bit of freedom.

37:22And I think with Dior, that's just such a tricky situation, but they are, they are invested in him and they will do anything they can to make it work. How that will end up manifesting, I do not know. But, but I think it's a good question. Like, what is what De Meo thinks is going to actually work? I haven't seen it yet. I don't know the answer. I know that François-Henri Pinault a few years back stated in AUS that they were the group of the rebels that Alexander McQueen, Demna, obviously at the helm of the biggest Kieran Browns were rebels. that contrary to LVMH, Kering should be the brand for the difficult art director and that the DNA of the group was that.

38:18Lucas Demeo, I think, has come in with the exact opposite idea that you need to be coherent, you need to be effective, you need to be good quality, but not overly designed. I mean, will it work? Will it be enough to create an emotion? How does it compare, in a way, to Hermès, which obviously is a benchmark of it for the brand, is into fashion without being overly fashion, is great quality that is always the same. You don't see the differences when a new art director comes in. I personally feel that you can have in one group a different way of working, maybe a brand like Gucci should be mostly quality then after design, while a brand like Alexander McQueen obviously should be a lot more into designs and doing things in its own way in a classic way what I find interesting in Michael rider success.

39:32If you asked me to choose one brand, luxury brand where I could dress and money is no object, then I would probably right now choose Celine. Once I have said that, easy at the same level or intellectual power or easy building a world like Jonathan Anderson does. Is he building a world like Demna did at Balenciaga? Is he making great clothes? And clothes I personally want to wear on Will Put on an etiquette without a shadow of a doubt. But is he a designer or an artist director? Is he John Gagnano in a way or more for Ralph Lauren? Is he Is he a designer or an artistic director? I mean, when I saw the selling show, I thought that a lot of the pieces were desirable.

40:41I mean, a lot of it you can wear, you can see yourself, but there were many ideas, a lot of ideas. Maybe, in a way, too many ideas. Can I say that? He has a lot of, he has a lot of ideas. But you know, Prada was, was radical in its simplicity that season. I mean, it's one idea and I push it and I make it. Duff, you know, when you look, I was at the Tom Brown show and there is one big idea that he has been doing for ages, one feat. Michael has got many in his locker, many feats in his collections, many different. if you look at the pants pants make a brand pants make a silhouette and it does the skinny it does the huge it does low rise it does high rise it's very attractive very commercial but it shows it is where we are eating brands being a bit safer making good clothes rather than create words that can attract a small click of people, but also exclude a lot of people.

41:58It's a question. It's nice to, it's interesting to see how everything is evolving nowadays because the industry is in crisis and people try and find solutions. I think selling will do well in terms of commercial success. It's, it's a little bit well, but is it going to be as striking as Loewe's Jonathan Anderson or as Demna's Balenciaga. I'm curious to see how it turns out. Is there a Michael Ryder silhouette now? Is there one? A lot of good points. I think one thing to think about is, I mean, Jonathan is so singular that Loewe had no identity and he gave it an identity. And that's like when you think about his Dior, no matter what you think, there's a lot to think about.

42:54Like, even if you don't like it, like I could think about it for, I do. I think about it for hours a week. I try not at night, but you know, it's these late nights in Paris. It's starting to seep in. I think the two things about Celine. One is Celine as a brand. Like I made a joke about it being soulless, but it is, and you, you, you're French, you know, more than me, but like, it's a bourgeois brand that like, didn't really have any. It's bourgeois, right? Like, it's like, I remember, do you know Alice Pfeiffer? So once years ago, I wasn't invited to a Celine show and they, this is like 2011 and she got me a photographer pass and she's like, it doesn't even matter.

43:45This is just like a bourgeois brand. It is not a thing. Like it was in the seventies. It's like, Oh, like who would wear that? Like you, why do you want to? And I went and I sat in the photographer's pit. It was worth it to, I think it was my second, my first Phoebe show. But, um, but the point being that like, it's not, it doesn't have an look, Dior doesn't really have a lot of depth either. And that is part of the reason it has like 10 years of amazingness, But like, it's not Chanel, like it doesn't have or even Lomban or something like it. Celine doesn't have a lot of history. And I think the reason why it's worked with all three of those designers is because they understood that it was for selling clothes.

44:26And and Phoebe, Hedy, Michael, there are people who bought across all those designers. And that's incredible. You know, like not maybe Hedy is a little bit out of it. You would say Michael is how do you compare him to Phoebe and Hedy? if you had to rank you know where i think to me michael i mean phoebe is phoebe phoebe is the choco chanel of our generation when you say like what are you going to wear one brand forever it's a designer of one of these brands asked me if you had all the money in the world what would you wear and i was like vintage and phoebe like which is basically what i wear already like it's not and and Charvet yeah yeah um but but like there isn't Phoebe is is unique I think the thing that Michael I made a joke and maybe it's a little off color but like for us by us like it's every all of you all of the snobby Frenchies love it like all of everyone in Europe loves it even more than they love the Chanel because it's like it's about personal style it is like Letiquette on the runway.

45:38And, but I think, and I think he is the ultimate modern creative director. When you talk about what Luca DeMeo wants, that Michael is doing that. Michael has, it has personality, it has soul, it has style, it has flair, but it is also not complicated in any way. I think the silhouette thing is a good question. I think it will be about a feeling. And then also one interesting thing about it, I have a friend who's a CMO and we have totally different style and have totally different. Every single show, we never agree. Like she'll be like, well, you like that? And she just, she's from LA. We just very different.

46:27She went to Celine and bought pants, trousers. And that to me, I was like, okay, this is going to work because if she likes it, and I like it. But I think it's a good question. Is Michael like Jonathan and gonna make us feel uncomfortable and confused and also happy and elated? No, but every person who went to that show was like, that's my look, that's my look. And I think it's very modern. And he also knows how to work within these corporate organizations, which is really, really hard. I wonder whether we can say that in a time of crisis, fashion cannot be challenging. I mean, it makes sense in a way.

47:18I mean, if I am a CEO, do I want a challenging designer? Or do I want someone who doesn't exclude, that has a bit of everything for everyone, that can be styled with vintage, with Zara, someone yeah it's a it's a good question and what I like about Michael Ryder is also the way he because when you compare him to Eddie Slimane both on the designs and the way they approach fashion and their personality it's so the difference is so striking I mean Eddie pushes has been pushing for ages one look one ID Michael has several Eddie is like a star designer creative director isolated from the rest of the team Michael is very much in being very human very talkative, very close to his teams so obviously that makes him, there is something with Michael right there that goes, when you work in that industry, that goes even further than the clothes I mean, you want to wear his clothes because you feel he designs for you and you want to have dinner with him in a way.

48:37That's totally. Yeah. I mean, it's funny because when you talk to him, I mean, it will express things that we maybe think about the industry we work on. You do want sometimes you wonder, do you, am I right to love fashion? Am I, am I, is it normal? Should I hate it? should I hate that industry? And what's making Michael a very likable character that I think, maybe, I mean, we should ask him, but maybe that kind of question goes through his mind, that he's part of it, but also he doesn't agree with everything that he sees, that maybe AVMH does, having talked to him. um no it's it's an interesting character position and concept in in the industry nowadays you um yeah it's interesting yeah i think he's very millennial millennial i think we're the same age and he's around our age too like we're all around 43 44 he is a typical millennial in that he's a company man and he wants to make money, but he also like questions it.

49:54And I think that's, he knows how to work within the system. And he also does not seem to have, um, it's not about him. And, and that is, it is about him, but it's not. And that's kind of what we are all like, like, it's like, it's not about us, but it is. And, and whereas like there are other generations where it's totally about the person and not. And I think Jonathan is grappling with this in a different way. Like it has been about him so much because he was made a genius, but he also understands that he needs to work in the system. And Demna, same thing. Like I'm at the caring investor day with Demna, who's like talking to Luca Soka.

50:39And these are things that can you imagine John Galliano talking to Luca Soka? No. so or even Alessandro to be honest like there is something about all of us that we're all like we know we have if we want to make money and enjoy our lives we have to work but there is also a I'm only going to work within the system so I can try to subvert it to an extent but it's a tricky time and I think the thing I wrote and maybe they'll edit it is like he Michael is sort of the the creative director for our time, like of this, this tricky time in the world where, and everything's uncertain and the industry's consolidated and it's going to start to decline and, and people just want to feel good.

51:28And you could say that Matt too is actually that because he, but I think in terms of like within, within the ecosystem of these brands that aren't, it's not Chanel. Like Michael is, and it's going to work. it will work. Yeah. And I think when you mentioned the Reese thing, I'm really sad not to be in Paris. A, because I didn't get to go to the show, but also because the Reese was so great last season. What he, one thing he does very well is create Instagram images without, I mean, the Reese's are great Instagram images when you look at the way they set up the clothes. It's so perfect for a story format on your Instagram page is very good at that too.

52:16And yeah, I do wonder whether there is still room for what we call a genius in fashion. I mean, obviously Jonathan can pretend, can say he's one and there are arguments to say that he's one. I mean. I think what kind of genius he is is the question. Yeah. I think he is, but I think it's like more about the psychological way he is able to manage all of that stuff and less about the design itself. Even Matthew Blassie, when you think of it, I place him in a category close in a way to Michael. He went in a brand with more of an history and an aesthetic than Celine. He's playing with it. He's managing the marketing demand, the commercial demands.

53:06is marketing a team of people that has become very big in a few weeks without breaking the mold, without reinventing the wheel. But he's a great designer doing it in a balanced way and being friendly with very everyone. And I think that's a new model. It's quite at ease with the fact that those people, the kind of profile of designers are being success and are being hired. So yeah, maybe it's something new and different. Yeah, I agree. I think you hit the nail on the head with that. What else did you see at the showrooms and things? Was there anything that like one other brand that really stood out to you that wasn't a runway show or being at the showroom made you think about it differently?

53:58What did I? I liked Andris, obviously, which was a show. It's really nice. Yeah, it is nice. And in a way, the example of a tradition that is being handled very well, going from Andris to Julian Klassner, of course. What else did I see that I liked? What do you think of our legacy? Oh yeah, I went to our legacy. I think our legacy is doing a good job, a very good job. I mean, it's balanced. There is something to it. It's not nothing. I mean, there is an identity. you obviously have images in mind when you think of the brand, you think of the canyon boots, you think of black you think of faded plaids you think of the zipper orientated shirts I think they are smart in digging into subcultures but not making excluding to people they digest it in a proper way you don't feel that very much I've started investing in them you don't feel like they are pushing the brand too much, too quick too mainstream I think it's balanced I think I can see I mean they have a community I mean which is which is quite impressive no no i think they do well i mean i can now that you asked me about the showroom that i saw and like i mean i like obviously these japanese brands like a press um coherence which is a small um tailoring based brand but yeah our legacy is good yeah it's uh i think they are quite preceding the references at the gates but uh they digest it very well and I think they're doing well.

56:15Yeah, it's an interesting, I really liked the imagery that they released and again I had to leave so I could not go to see it but I just find the classic stuff and the runway to be so separate and that I don't know someone said that they have like there's one guy who's like very classic and the other guy is more the runway and they work well together but it's very separate And I wonder long term, because going to the store, we went in Berlin. I was like, this is not for me in any way. But I think that, I don't know. It's interesting. I feel like they have a lot of potential. I really like that brand MF Penn also, which feels like of that.

57:00And that guy seems, I met him at the LVMH Prize. He seems like super wants to do well and aggressive and ambitious. And so I think there's something in that world of like, maybe our legacy can not mess up where acne messed up or something. You think acne messed up? Yeah. I was thinking about it. I think so. Because I went to the acne paper thing and I was talking to someone who does some work for them. And I said, you know, I really stopped paying attention when he said in a press thing like 10 years ago that he wanted to be the Swedish Prada. And I was like, I can't deal with this anymore. And I've seen like they were trying to raise money and I'm sure they did before the like at the beginning of the pandemic or right before.

57:51And I remember seeing their fundraising deck and it was such like, I bought all my jeans there for so long. And, and the, even the smiley face when it got more mass, like it still made a lot of sense. And I think like, if you look at an Ami, which has done a pretty good job managing the mass, the mass, you know, proliferating or whatever. And then also whether you like it or not, like, I think they've done a good job with it or like in our legacy, which is more of the same lineage of, of, uh, and, and I just think like acne, could it have been the next product? No, but it could, it have been something where like we were still shopping there.

58:34Yes. And I don't, I think it's a, it's a little, I was, I, the, I'm, I'm a little disappointed in it and don't really know. I think I've gone a bit too far in the fashion search in being extreme and being in creating attention. At some point, because I'm obviously wear suits a lot. And when. Not last week. No, thankfully. but when uh when some guy would would be asking 10 years ago for a coach i mean and you don't want to go bespoke of course because it's long and too expensive you you would direct him to to acne because they would make a good navy overcoat and you wouldn't do it that way nowadays you would push it to maybe orally or somewhere else but yeah i mean so it's yeah they've gone probably a bit too far in being fashion.

59:36Yeah. Okay. Let's talk a bit about Letiquette. Yes. And also explain how you came to be, because I didn't know anything about you before a few months ago. I just knew that you were the editor of Letiquette and that you had this column in this French paper where you wrote about wearing sweaters over your shoulder. So Every week. You have an interesting background. And also you're famous in France because you're on TV every week. Yes. A small fame, but still. No, so I'm very much of a journalist. So I always define myself as being a journalist. I started as a sports football writer 20 years back now at L 'Equipe France Football, which are the biggest sports titles in French and wear at the time.

1:00:33But I have always been fascinated with subcultures. So my teenage passions were football, music and fashion, obviously, style. So even when I was working on sports, I would write and think about clothing. I did a lot of texts and articles for the French GQ when it was released. I wrote, when I was studying, a big memory, a big text on the way rock stars have been wearing ties over the years, from Kurt Cobain wearing a Brooks Vosso tie on the cover of his Best Of album to Buddy Oli to Sid Vicious wearing a leather tie. you know, I think he, I mean, in an SM way. So I wrote a lot about that. And what really my thing with clothes is, was to start with the subcultures.

1:01:34So I was dressed as a mod when I was 20. I was into ties, double bristed suits. I had the hair going on my forehead, which was quite bad. but so I have always linked clothes to music mostly but also movies sports culture etc so it's not I'm not a runaway guy in a sense that I didn't look at Vogue as I look at NME magazine or as at Les Arrocs Uptible music magazine when I was a teenager or when I was 20 so I worked in sports. Then we launched, we created a media group called Sopresse, where we created a football magazine, then a news magazine that I ran for a few years, even a movie magazine. And on the side, I wrote about closing for, I started writing about closing for GQ.

1:02:39Then Le Monde offered me a column. Then I went on TV, the biggest late show in France, which is called Quotidien, talking weekly about the way people dress, going from the president to the people at the shows to people on the streets. So I have always, in a way, considered clothes to be a cultural object. To me, what you wear is as relevant as what you read, what you watch, what you listen to. Asmogaz is done in an independent and informed way. So over the years, I have done plenty of things. I have, I studied François Hollande when he was president for just a couple of hours. I went to, I saw him for two hours in his office when he was running France, which was a big failure for me as he's difficult to dress.

1:03:34I also, I mean, I was also chief editor for Holiday Magazine the first seven years. And is that how you ended up starting La Tiquette? Yeah, in a way, because we did, with Frank Durand, we did Holiday. And then I met also Gauthier Borsarello, who I work with. He's a friend and an art director, very much into vintage clothing. So at some point, I told Gauthier we should launch a menswear magazine, influenced in a way by Japanese magazine, but let's do it our way. So we created it with Frank and with Gauthier. and Frank was the art director of Letiticket also. So it was a bunch of people deciding to make a good menswear magazine because they just liked clothing, because they liked it, because they saw it as more than shopping.

1:04:29We don't do shopping. We do a lot, but we don't really like to world it that way. so that's how we ended the creative etiquette in 2018 and it has grown, it was supposed to be just one of your issue, it's now two we also have a women's issue we have the men's issue in French and also in English edition the women's issue we are starting the English edition in September so it's a nice little thing to do people like it thankfully I'm always very you know touched and moved when people talk to me about it and come to me and say I love it I want people to read the magazine not just the thing I hate is when people take a fashion magazine and browse through the pages like you know quickly and I see people doing it all the time that my solution to this is to put text in every pages.

1:05:34So you have fashion images, but there is text on it. So you don't, you don't browse for it. You read the image. Uh, that's I do a lot of Google translating when I'm looking soon. You will have it in English. It's okay. I need to learn French. So it's fine. So some people learn French with it and send us, um, reports of what they learn in the issue. Yeah, sometimes I know enough context that the English translation, I'm like, I know this isn't exactly what it means. But yeah, it's funny. So and Lolita Jacobs is your fashion director for the women's. She's super chic. She recommended my hair colorist.

1:06:15She said it's very intimate. That's chic.

1:06:20But to me, I love it. And all the American editors love it. it reminds me of, and you mentioned, it's not about shopping, which it's not like there, there's a lot. I love the, um, Caroline, uh, DeRoche Pasquier piece. And like, there's a lot of, you always, I, I was interviewed for a story you all did on skims. Like it's, it's basically like, it's an enthusiast magazine. There's, but it reminds me, I worked for this magazine in America. You're not going to like the comparison, but called Lucky Magazine, which was a magazine about shopping, but it was also based on Japanese magazines. And it was like the ultra, ultra Americanized commercial version of Lettiket.

1:07:06And, um, but I think what, what the, it was really about style and about, um, personal style. And I think one of the things, Hey, I love it. And every single time I read through it, I find a brand that I haven't heard of, or I think of a new, you use a lot of vintage and you mix it in with new, there was a pair of Hermes mules in the last issue, women's issue that I was like, those are Hermes. And I would, I would buy them. Like there's, there's always something and it feels useful, but it's still fun. It's just, it's not, it's, you're right. Like now you either, you, you read a magazine, like New York magazine or the New Yorker for the articles and you read, if you look at a fashion magazine, I'm not reading double or whatever you'd call it in French for the articles.

1:07:56No offense. Like I'm looking at the images and love it, but I'm not going to read the Q and A's that they have in there or whatever. Whereas what you're doing, I, all the like people, they, they shoot people on the street where it's, it's a real person and they're, and you tell the story of their outfit. I want to know who these people are and what they do. And I do use the translator or whatever. But I think one of the things that I like most about it is with the models, you use the same models throughout the issue. So like a model will be in one editorial and then 50 pages later in another one, you're like, oh, I just saw that woman.

1:08:38There were a bunch of in the recent women's issue, a bunch of pregnant women, like more than one, which I really like too. I don't know. It's quite simple. What we do is a lot when you look at the fashion is outfits that you can wear. We do outfits, we don't do images. So the pictures are simple, the white background is always there. And we explain what we do. It's not like we are fashion good and we We tell you it is this way, look at it, do it the same at your place. We explain it because it requires explanation. We can show something and tell people. You can also do it a bit differently. So we explain things.

1:09:29And what I like is the idea that we are the stylish friend of your band, of your group of friends. We are the one who is the most into clothes. And we just, why don't you try this thing? Maybe you should put your sweater over your shoulders. It's just give ideas to people, being enthusiastic, not having something that are very accessible, some more expensive, having diversity. It's crazy that being friendly is strange in the fashion world, but being nice to people, being cool, just relaxed. it's friendly but it's not stupid no and it's also not like it's it's about having taste like you're not there it has high standards so like it feels open but it also is like like it was funny I was reading Lolita's small column of what she's wearing because I bought it because I'm in New York and I was like oh I just need to get it because I needed something yesterday and she's like, I'm never wearing Capri pants.

1:10:42I just bought Capri pants and I was like, should I have not done that? No, I'm, I like mine, but, but, but it is, it, it has, there's, it has standards. And there is a sense of like, yes, you should care about this stuff. And I think the thing you said, I always bring this up a years ago, probably 20 years ago, I interviewed this woman, Robbie Myers, who was the editor in chief of American L for a long time. And she was like, I treat fashion the way all the other pillars of pop culture. And in America, it's really not like that. And I always think about this too. Like you can hide your taste in music or film or whatever, but you can't really hide your taste in clothing because, and it's, it makes people uncomfortable.

1:11:26And in America in particular, that is a, it's, it's a point of tension and a point of stressors. dressers. And I, so I have this one final question for you about a particular way of dressing, but yeah, I think that like, it's, um, it's the funny thing about Letta Kett is all I think about is like all the financial and commercial opportunities you probably have. And especially if you launched a U S edition, but we could, I know you're not going to do that, but we could talk offline. Cause I swear to God, like as an American, this is the first thing that would probably ruin it but it is like it just feels like so i'm so bad i'm so bad at it it's terrible i know but you know you know how many people have already asked me like yeah should i launch the american version oh really i mean yeah we'll we'll discuss it we'll discuss it let me know but i need some help on the on the financial side i'm so bad at it um if you if you want to um Give Mark money.

1:12:29Yes, please. I beg for you. You're probably going to get. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So this is my last question because we already, usually this is an hour. It's almost two, but this was really fun. Okay. I am in New York. Immediately. The first thing I do in New York, I am having, I'm dealing with some stuff and trying to distract myself. I'm like, I need to buy new leggings. Okay. Because I go to this Legree class in Paris and I need better leggings, but I am not buying leggings in Europe. My question for you is. Okay. Someone was like, don't you have aloe in Paris? I'm like, sure, but it's going to be more expensive.

1:13:08Also, I tried to go to aloe and the line was, the queue was so long. I was like, fuck this. I'm not going to go. Like I didn't, I haven't bought any. But the point being, I think there's, I have a piece on Tuesday about like, there's still just a lot of opportunity. But in America, people just wear leggings all the time. Like on, I wore on Sunday, I went to Pilates at 9.30 a.m. And I wore them with, and I wore a big t-shirt and I, and Keds. And I ended up wearing them all day. Like if I had gone to a restaurant for lunch, I would not do that. But there are many people who do. And every person I ran into was dressed.

1:13:53This is New York City. Very informally. In Paris, you could not do that. Like I take my leggings to Pilates and I change. I would never do that. I'm curious from your perspective, though. are you noticing the casualization of the u.s and the uk has it become more casual as someone who likes wearing suiting who was a mod who was all that stuff like are you noticing that people are becoming more casual in paris as well or do you think that it it will not happen there to the extent that it is here because you go to san diego here and you're not going to see anyone in anything but elastic pants, like not even jeans.

1:14:40It's funny because a couple of days ago, a friend of mine, a girlfriend of mine, she sent me a picture of a girl she took on the streets and the girl was wearing aloe, from what I gather. And she told me, it's crazy. That girl, and I have seen a few like these, are going out in the city in Bratia. I mean, I don't know how you call it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like a sports bra. Yeah, a sports bra. A cropped sports bra. Plus leggings. And she told me, write about it in Le Mans. So we don't, we cannot do that. So it shocks people. I think you should write about it. Yeah. So the tricky part, the tricky part is as always, can I as a man, the white man in his 40s, tell the girls how to dress?

1:15:36I think maybe you can and just expect to get a lot of hate. I don't know. I think it's interesting. Whether or not you think it's appropriate is not my question. Yeah, of course. My question is, do you think it's because when I go to this class, Lagrinus, Jade, shout out to Jade, my instructor there, it's extremely hard. It's like the only hard workout class I've ever found in Paris. Sometimes the girls wear like tennis skirts. Okay. Like, like I, a lot of them have sets on it. It's a lot of Americans or, or Dutch or whatever. Like a lot of not French people there. And it is a very, like, if you're going to wear sporty and rich, these people know what sporty and rich is.

1:16:27But I am curious, like, just do you think, because I think about the last time we spent a good chunk of time in Paris in 2019. And like, I remember I was a big runner at the time and showing up for breakfast after a run and like feeling uncomfortable in my leggings. I think now it would be a little more accepted. But do you think, do you think that it will just move towards that where, because in America, like, I think you would be a little appalled. Like, I'm appalled. I just can't believe that people, it's, and yes, I mean, I did it yesterday, but I still, like, I had kids on and I had on, like, a funny shirt.

1:17:12Like, I tried a little bit, like, and I didn't mean to. It just turned out that I never ended up going back to the apartment to change. I remember probably 10 years ago, Karl Lagerfeld said in France, the sentence is well known. And he said, wearing a tracksuit is giving up on life. When you give up, you wear tracksuits. I don't know if you could say that anymore nowadays. It has become, yeah, I think there is a causalization of the way people dress. even in Paris, we probably start from an higher standard than in the US. Obviously, we dress a bit better than you do. Well, a bit more. But we can also say that we are always a bit late on the trends.

1:18:06So I think we'll reach a point where we dress the way you do, the way you do currently, the Americans. um if you would say that there is a it's a trend it's a way of showing the work of the result of your sports work through your body for girls i think that's part of it but i also think it's a comfort thing yeah and it's just this idea of like people never the thing i said to someone recently is it's not like in 1950s in the 1950s when teenagers started wearing jeans in high school that we ever went back. Like it's never going to go back to like a suit. Suiting is trendy right now and like people are wearing suits, but it's never going to be that a guy has to wear a suit every single day to work anymore.

1:19:00Like it's just not ever going to go back. But I think, I don't know, it's a strange, it's an interesting thing because what people in Europe have is like that you're you grow up like it's okay to be enthusiastic about clothing yeah and and not just as a status yeah whereas in america it's only status that's that's it um it sums up what we said to me and probably to some people in paris and and dressing is expressing in a visual way in a very you know accessible tangible way your culture what you i mean what when i dress i hope people can guess what i listen to what music i like what readers i write i read sorry or movies i like it's so to me um not dressing i mean dressing in purely comfort clothes or clothes that only cover myself is I hate the idea.

1:20:14It's having no culture. It's like, you know, you don't impress, you don't express anything for your clothes and I think clothes I meant to express something. Okay, to be continued. This is great, Mark. Thank you for being here. Thanks a lot, Lauren. It was a big pleasure for me. It was so fun. We'll have you back again. Yeah, okay. Thanks a lot. It's a pleasure. And see you in Paris. Thank you. See you soon. Fashion People is a presentation of Odyssey in partnership with Puck. The show is produced and edited by Molly Nugent. Special thanks to Puck co-founder John Kelly, executive editor Ben Landy, producer Maya Tribbett, and director of editorial operations Gabi Grossman.

1:20:53An additional thanks to the team at Odyssey, Kelly Turner and Bob Tabador.