Art World Confidential

28:44And she was like, and I just, I, I love, I loved so much about how she talked about art and how she, you know, talked about people about supporting the ecosystem of art. And that really led me in, in the early days. And she always said to me too, she said, you know, Miami, they, Miami necessarily won't support you, but other people will. and it was it was a great it was great I have to say I had a lot of freedom in those early days and um a lot of a lot of fun and my main goal was really just to kind of fully understand this you know global ecosystem or get as close as I possibly could to understanding the global ecosystem of the art of the art world and spending time with artists okay so I want to do a compare and contrast of art and fashion.

29:30But first, let's talk about launching Cultured and how did it happen? And how has the sort of, I remember your comms team or someone started sending it to me very early. I have emails that I wrote you. I was like, we did an essay on Eileen. Oh, yes. We did an essay on Britney Spears before everyone, please read it. Yes, totally. Because I was always intrigued by your byline. And, you know, I always I've been someone who reads all the time. So I was writing you emails before we even met. I I remember this. It's I mean, it's that was probably 12, 12, 13 years ago. So how did you decide I'm going to do a magazine?

30:14I'm going to make it about like centered on the art world, at least now it's about much more than that. But what what was the sort of impetus for it? How did you launch it? All that stuff? I mean, I think that's the thing is like I did it very quietly. Like I was just I became and I think in retrospect, this was probably all a big mistake. But I was very focused on the content. I was just kind of like, I didn't have PR. I didn't do a press release. I just was like, no, my content will actually be better than everyone else's. I remember once and I'm not going to say his name. He works at a magazine that we both really love.

30:49He's the executive editor. He said to me, if you build it, they will come. And I was like, dude, that's how the internet works. No, it's not how it works. No, most of what I did is a mistake. But my thought process was really just like, you know, the story, the writers, the access. And I have to say, that's why I have such mixed feelings about being in Miami and not being in New York is number one I could afford rent right yeah uh number two I didn't feel like I had this glaring pressure to like like I remember I remember like I think Louis Vuitton like they reached out to to me like I mean like I wasn't wasn't necessarily focused like I said a lot of this is probably a mistake but my my guiding force in those early days wasn't like get the advertiser and like you know it was more like I want to get this you know special interview I want to try to get this writer.

31:39I want this person to recognize it. But I wasn't, I mean, I had one salesperson when I started, I think for the first two or three years, and I think she was 24. Well, also it probably gave you time. Doing it the way you did it gave you time to figure out what it was. Whereas people who like launch hard launch, it's harder because you're just, everybody's watching. Exactly. There's a lot of freedom. And then also like you were saying, how you feel that so many people now, like Mark or whoever you grew up with. Like, I feel like I've chronicled the art world in the last 15 years in a way that I've grown up with, you know, Rasheed Johnson, Derek Forger, like all these people, they were in my first couple.

32:22I mean, Jeannie Greenberg of Salon 94 and of much other fame was on my first cover. And so I've known these people for so long and I feel on some level that sometimes they feel ownership of the growth of culture because they've been involved in kind of watching it. And it grew. We, you know, we've always had immense growth, but we grew slowly. I wasn't trying to be everywhere at every point. I did have, you know, I think I wasn't everywhere. I couldn't be, you know, like I didn't, I wasn't social. I always felt that people who made their way that way, I was kind of disinterested in, again, probably a mistake.

32:58But anyway, I had three little kids at home. I was busy. And frankly, I had, you know, I had other jobs. I did other things for, you know, financial support. And, um, and I really was just like, you know, focused on making a really good magazine and letting it, letting it kind of unfold in its own time. I didn't put these like, oh my God, it has to be this by this point. Yeah.

33:27So what year did it launch and what was the mission? Did you have a mission statement from the beginning or what what was the mission when you launched it and how has that evolved since the launch? I mean, I think I did have a mission. I think I didn't articulate it. I mean, as you know, maybe now to more people are starting a magazine, but then it was like to say I'm going to start a magazine. People would be like, why? What year was it? 2012. 2012. Okay. I mean, I kind of soft launch in 2011, but I say 2012, but there is an issue in 2011, but it doesn't have my logo. It was like, we just did like a, I just kind of did it.

33:59I really, um, I think my mission was, it was definitely mission driven. And I would say my mission probably hasn't changed. And some of that is still the excitement that I have for the creative world, how they overlap, how they intersect, covering people that other people don't necessarily know, kind of building on the faith that humans are curious and they want to read about lots of different things and good storytelling always has a way and I've always been really intrigued by you know the underdog story I mean just you know the people who the what people have gone through and I spent a lot of time visiting young artist studios and you know successful artists who even had museum acquisitions and good collectors and you know just kind of seeing how long it takes them to kind of cross over into, you know, being known in the art world.

34:54So I think I lost your question and my rammer on, but, um, it sounds like the mission hasn't really changed much. It's just the gotten bigger. It's gotten bigger. I mean, the landscape has shifted, right? So how has the art world changed in the last 13 years? Well, that's a hard question right now because the art world's had a tough, I don't know, 16, 18 months. But I would say in the last 12, 12 years of the art world, the art world has grown. I mean, I think, you know, as Jerry Saltz eloquently says, there's just more people. Yeah. There's more people, you know, interested in the art world, there's more dealers.

35:31I mean, we're launching a story that I was working on this morning with my team, a global story on young dealers, as we feel that, you know, it's such an important part of the the ecosystem is, you know, a midsize dealer. And we have 23 young dealers. And along with one of my editors, Julia Halpern, who worked at, you know, Artnet and only covers the art world, there were people on there that neither of us knew. We had a system of people nominating. And, you know, we have 23 dealers that will be launched in the next day or so. So it's just, I think it's gotten bigger, I think in really simplistic terms, that's how it's changed.

36:09I mean, it launched a lot of really successful careers in the last decade. Well, similar to fashion in that way, do you feel like it became a bigger part of pop culture that, you know, Rasheed Johnson, someone that maybe a lot of people know who that is, that wouldn't have known when whoever was at that level in 2012, maybe not as many people would have heard of that person. For sure. And it's something we talk about a lot. You know, Cindy Sherman, Rashid, Marina, like, are these names people know or these names people don't know? I remember putting Marina on the cover in like 2014 and thinking, God, is she everyone going to say she's so overexposed or like, you know, and then you go one step out and you realize like people don't even know who she is.

36:56You know, you're talking about Marina Abramovich. Yeah. So I my, um, my mom text chain, my, someone thinks that they were, cause you know, she, I don't think she, she takes economy class a lot or like economy plus. I don't know if it's to feel human or what, or why, or just because she's like savvy and doesn't want to waste her money. But anyway, someone, one of my mom and my mom text chain was like convinced that she was on the plane. and so I have to send you this photo. Yeah. And so we like, I tried to find her publicist just to find out if it was her. I have no idea, but I actually messaged like a few who you definitely know, art world publicists who I know and to be like, do you, is this her?

37:46How can I find out? Cause we just like, we had this big battle but it was in this check. One of the people in my group runs a gallery. I wonder if you know her actually, we can talk offline afterwards, but, um, but a lot of the people are not connected at all. And everyone did know who she was. And we like fought for a week for like a week of whether or not this person was her. And I was like, it's definitely her. I've seen her now. I think it probably wasn't her in the end. We were more in business class, but yes, I'm going to send you the photo. Uh, but, but anyway, you're yes. So those, you felt like Marina was overexposed in 2014, but like she's gotten way more famous than that.

38:28Yeah, of course, of course. And I think, too, we were kind of the first, you know, speaking of editorial mission of covering, you know, all the disciplines together, you know, dance and fashion and art. And we covered curators in a way that other people hadn't. I mean, it's been important and remains important to me to cover a lot of people that call it mainstream media is less interested in. And that remains. So when I look at the editorial, I would say it really hasn't changed. I think lots of other things have changed. And as you say, you know, there's just the demand to do more. And, you know, we do five digital stories a day that don't run in print.

39:07How have you built a team? It's much easier now because so many journalists work remote. But how have you managed to build a team not being in New York? Because you were in Miami, you're in L.A. I hate remote. I am such an office being. I actually, we just opened an office in New York and I've had an office in LA. Because when I talked to your kids at the Cultured 100 party, they were like, she basically lives in New York. Well, I spent more time in New York this year. I spent more time, yeah. No, but New York, I mean, first of all, New York has always been culture's number one market by far every single day since the day I launched.

39:45I've always had a bigger team in New York than I've had anywhere else, even when I started in Miami. I've just, New York has always kind of been, I mean, it's certainly the capital of the art world and media. So I like to enforce the office. I just actually finished a few touches on it. So next week, or the week after, we have an opening party for the office. And in LA, I had an office for a while that shifted because of my landlord, other things. But no, I don't know. And I think a lot actually about being a young person starting my career. And I honestly, I don't know that they don't have the perspective so maybe it doesn't matter but i just think it has to be so much harder and i mean and i also think in these industries like part of the reason you fall in love with your job or not is like your team so i'm a huge proponent of in office work i just think you're writing it's different uh i i think it's different but no i i i think in covid was like kind of the first test.

40:46I mean, editing a magazine and I mean, I still, I still have to kind of print pages and I see things differently when they're printed and I don't, I love office. I love the office. I am a thousand percent with you as someone who has pretty much every job I've ever had has been, I haven't had to be in the office eight hours a day. There was one job when I was managing a team that was like much more like admin-y. It was much more, I was an editor. I wasn't writing as much where I did need to be there eight to five or whatever it was. But most of my career I've spent half and half. So like - But you're a writer.

41:33Yes. But what I will say is I think it's really bad when people don't go into the office. Like I think if I lived in New York where the puck headquarters is, I would go into the office every single day. It might only be for two hours, but I would be there every single day. My, my, when I worked at business of fashion and I was remote at first because we didn't have, because I was the first employee in New York, but then we had an office probably six months into me joining full time, maybe even less. Maybe I wasn't even full time when they bought the when they opened the office, but I would work at home in the morning, go for a lunch, go in the afternoon.

42:13And in L.A., I work from a shared space, you know, at least two days a week, if not three. But I just find. Zoom calls do not do the same thing, and I feel I do feel like a little bit. The thing is, the generation that was in college during covid, which is my. They don't know any better. Like I'm sure, and they think, like when I go to the office in New York and the young people don't come in on a Friday, which I understand, like, I get it. If I lived there, maybe I wouldn't go in on Fridays. But I'm like, you live in this tiny box. Why would you not want to go into this nice office where there's free food and water?

42:57And also - Like minded individuals. Totally, totally. I want to talk to you about the story. And I mean, I'm just like, I always say, like, the amount and excess of emails and communication and text threads where one thing, I mean, I'm in transit. I'm running around, like, things get lost. I'm like, just sit and have a meeting and be together. Totally. And I do, I wonder about this generation because I feel like I learned so much in the office just by watching people. Like, watching how people conducted themselves. watching how people spoke to each other. All of it was fascinating to me. Totally.

43:35I remember once going to New York after I'd moved to LA and having coffee with one of the younger writers at BOF. And she was like, how do you find sources? And I was like, oh my God, you've never been in an office with someone and heard them pick up the phone. So you don't know how to talk to people. You haven't learned any of that. I never asked anyone, how do I find sources? I saw these guys and some women, but like I worked at a business magazine. So it was it was boys club, but like on the phone bugging people. And that's what you do. And and that I agree. It's such a I talked to a CEO once who had designed its vertically integrated company designed their office for happy accidents.

44:23So like the engineer would accidentally meet with the designer. And this person was like, none of them want to come in. And it's just like, oh, but what about when a company is struggling and they're doing layoffs and the people, the leadership are like, who should we keep? And if they don't know your face, you're not, it's just all these things. Anyway, this is another podcast. I understand. I can't wait. I can't wait. Um, so explain to me from your perspective, because I'm fascinated with the art world for many reasons. A, it has a lot of amazing characters for sure. There's tons of money. It's a very particular thing.

45:08It reminds me of fashion in that your taste is very exposed. So it's very, it makes you very vulnerable and people are very intimidated by it because I love saying you can hide your taste in music. You can hide your taste in movies. You can hide your taste in, but you can't hide your taste in clothes because you're putting them on. And art is similar. Go into someone's house and you see their art and you're like, oh, I know who you are now. That to me is a similarity. But then there are all these differences, especially the pricing stuff because fashion is a, the pricing of fashion is a construct and we all know it, but like there are material goods that do go into the pricing and there is a pricing architecture and you could like Hermes says they don't price based on marketing.

46:01You know, you could say that like, it's based on the cost of raw goods and, and demand and all that. But art is like, it's the pricing is, is so different to me. So, but it's much more systematic than you think though. Tell me about like what, how the art world and the fashion world are similar and how they're different. I mean, I think they're similar at, you know, they connect people with passion, right? They connect people who believe fundamentally in creativity, in connection. I think that's why at the very tippy top, you see so much overlap. You know, if you look at the top of every fashion house, what do you see?

46:40You see, well, the creative directors, which mostly I meet through the art world. You see, you know, incredibly sophisticated collectors with incredible taste. If you look at the people who own the major fashion houses, what do you see? You see massive, massive collecting prowess. Obviously, you could argue access, which is such a big part of the art world. But, you know, you look at the collections that they built. And, you know, I've talked to dealers who sold to, you know, Pinel. And I said, oh, so who calls? and who calls when, how does it work? Tell me everything. And I've had people say to me, no, no, they call themselves.

47:18Like, yeah, not their assistant. It's not their, you know. So, you know, I think ultimately it's connected by passion. I think they each have obviously, you know, their own greed of pretension and, you know, lots of, you know, idiosyncratic little things about them. I always think of a cast of characters that come together to make an industry interesting to me. And yeah, I think you have both. I'm more familiar with the cast of characters in the art world, of course. And like you say, you have some of these massive collectors who have made their money in really interesting ways, which has been great to just kind of hear people's own stories.

47:55And they get to a certain point of being so successful, and then they turn their head to art. And it is addictive. So I think there's a lot of similarities. I mean, And I think there's too much talk about how they intersect. I mean, I don't, you know, I don't know. Everyone's always trying to put them together. And interestingly enough, even though, like, I'm actually not always trying to put them together. Like, people always say, oh, you're fashion and art. And it's like, not really. I mean, I see them, I don't, I'm not trying to do that. I'm not trying to, like, mix or force in any way. I would say that, you know, I haven't spent as much time with creative directors as I spent with artists.

48:33and I would like to and certainly the creative directors that I have spent time with are mostly through the art world and a lot of them spend a lot of time with artists who I think do often think uniquely and give us a different perspective. I've learned a lot from collectors. I mean, you know, and that's the thing too. You look at the big galleries and I mean, they're huge businesses. Yeah. How hard do you think it's to cover from a business perspective versus fashion? because the thing that I'm lucky, look, a lot of the numbers are opaque, but really, most of these companies are public companies.

49:09And so even though LVMH doesn't break down its revenue by company, by brand, sometimes they reveal that information. And I also have enough reporting that I'm able to figure it out. It feels like, is art more opaque in terms of how much money is actually being made? I mean, I think it's more opaque. I'm not necessarily sure that it's fully opaque, though. There's not many numbers that I think most of us aren't aware of. Yeah. And I have to say, we do cover the market. When I started the magazine, I was less interested in the market. It's not the most interesting piece of the puzzle to me. um you know you talk a lot about and i i would say we started covering when we cover fairs we started covering price points only maybe about five years ago i was actually against it in the beginning i really wanted to not kind of focus on the business of the art world i wanted to focus on the other aspects of it and i have found that when we do cover and we do cover cost and there are plenty of people who cover cost but in prices a lot of artists wrote me um you know and i know a lot of artists talk about like if you go to a gallery in New York City and you ask for a price sheet they're legally obligated to give you that price sheet yeah which a lot of artists will tell you I don't know that if it's the same in California in terms of the law but um so I don't know I don't I don't I know what you're saying in terms of obviously fashion and there's so many different you know data points to cover in fashion and maybe a little bit you know less in art but you know all the auction numbers are public I think the primary prices are pretty well known um so i mean i always say and i always tell my team and again it's not something that we we focus on so much editorially i would say but as a journalist or anyone coming covering the art market it's important to know i mean i i'm always asking how much is that on the primary how much is that whether i'm just out of just to kind of understand and it says a lot about you know demand and what a gallery sees where an artist is and there's a lot of points of interest that come from it.

51:21And I know some people think it's opaque. I just don't. I think the point that you made that is clarifying something for me. So I have had to write many articles about the intersection of art and fashion over my career and have always really struggled and couldn't pinpoint why. It kind of is similar to when I write about, I cover fashion's sort of connection to Hollywood quite a lot living in LA, but I did it before I lived in LA because it is such a big, the, the two businesses are, they need each other so much. Uh, they feed off of each other, but it's hard to, and I wonder if it's a similar thing with art because yes, there are collaborations and there are designers are collectors and people you go to freeze or our boss or whatever you see, everybody's dressed really well and they have an interest in the way they look.

52:19It's aesthetics, but it isn't, they are two separate worlds very much. And that is, I think that's the beauty. That's where the interest is to me. Yeah. And, and what you're doing with cultured now that I think about it is like, you are covering all these and it's not just art and fashion. It's entertainment. It's all these different things through the same lens, but not trying to put them all in the same box, if that makes sense. No, not at all. And I think just because, you know, there are, you know, fashion designers who collect, I mean, they're basketball players who collect. I mean, it doesn't mean, do you know what I mean?

53:03I think sometimes like things are trying, are meant just, they don't have to be, there doesn't have to be a forced connection. Yes. So that brings me to your relationship with fashion brands, which I think I don't want you to give away all your trade secrets because everybody, but I, one thing I will say is you do a lot of events. You're having an event. Um, this is it this week to this week? Are you coming? I'm coming to the one on Thursday. Yes. Uh, at Jason Bolden's bar. Is it with, with, um, Louboutin, yes. Christian Louboutin. And what's the other event you're doing? I'm doing an event with Orlebar Brown in the Hamptons on Saturday, which is a brand also that I've worked with for probably fabulous.

53:51Okay. So you do a lot of events. You do a lot of different kinds of events. Like you did this big cultured 100 event at the Guggenheim. It was amazing. You staged this big thing. Valentino was one of your partners on that. I was on the list. Thank you for having me on the list. Um, it's, I was very honored. It was very, it's very cool. But, um, you, you host a lot of different events and I was talking to a brand person and they said, I really like working with her because she gets interesting people. There are like a lot of collectors and your network is not just the typical people. And you have like a very diverse network of people who would come to things, but like, how have you been able to build out that part of the business?

54:41And what do you think you do well that attracts brands of such a variety as well? Thank you. That's, that's nice. I mean, I think on some level, um, and I honestly, I take it back to kind of ocean drive days and, uh, doing events was a big part of what they did. And frankly, I didn't like the way they did it. And I felt that that really defined how I wanted to do it. And at some point I felt like I work like everyone, you know, 15 hour days. I had three little kids and I wasn't going to ask my friends or anyone to come to anything that I didn't really feel was worth their time. And I've kind of just been led by that.

55:27People think I'm social. People think I'm out a lot. And I am because it's part of our job. But I was not a natural social person growing up or anything like that. So I think a lot about that. And actually, at the Colt 100, I invited an artist that I love named Danielle McKinney. And she said, you know, I have some social anxiety, like a lot. And I said, so do I. And she laughed. And she said, can I bring my husband? I said, of course. So, you know, I think like the pages of magazines, I think sometimes events get formulaic. And I was actually in a meeting the other day with an event with someone who has a big brand and they were saying, oh, well, I think people just look at magazine events to see who they invite.

56:09And so they can invite the same people. And I was like, I've actually never done that. I've never like looked at what other people and been like, oh, I want them. I've tried to have like, you know, people who don't who may not go out all the time. I mean, I just never kind of really wanted, never really understood why people are always after like the same cross section of 15 people. Yes, which we deal with a lot in L.A. Where we're like. We deal with a lot in L.A. Where I love seeing you. And I love seeing Allie Pugh, who's on your team, one of my closest friends. Allie Pugh, who's amazing. Like, but sometimes I'm like, guys, is there no one else who lives here?

56:45Well, I rather, I mean, I do think, too, that's something that I've taken a chance and whatever. Like I ever have people that people like, I don't know who they were. Yeah. And I was actually, I went to the, uh, the Tarabaka Film Festival dinner last night and I said, it looked fabulous. Who'd you sit with? I, now I'm not going to remember her name, but she was a really gorgeous 40 year old woman with three kids. And she said, Oh my God, I was at your Colt 100 party. She said, I never felt so old. And here you are an older white woman and how it was just funny. And she was telling me a story about how she went to college with someone in the family who owns a very big brand who doesn't go out all the time and how they were at one of these big brand things at their family and people were like, why are you here?

57:32And I don't know. It's just back to that thing of, you know, ask people about themselves. Like, be curious about people and don't try to, you know, I don't know. I'm not trying to fill the room with the same people all the time. Yeah. And I like meeting people. I mean, I think of what sustains me in doing it is meeting new people or meeting people who see it differently or meeting people who like, you know, artists who don't get invited to a lot of things. I mean, which is a whole nother topic because, of course, I invite artists to everything. But sometimes, you know, just people, if they don't know who they are, people don't have an Instagram following.

58:10Like I think sometimes decisions are made based on that, which I really try not to make decisions based on things like that. Yeah. Yeah. Two things. One is the point about having social anxiety. I feel that way too. I am not, I'd say I am a mixed introvert extrovert. It depends on the time. I'm not super comfortable, like honestly going to a party on the weekend, like a friend's party. I'm more like that's where I feel the most social anxiety because now that I have kids that's been helped a kid that has really helped lubricate it because like the kid but when I go to a work event I'm fine because I'm like I this is my and this is I think a lot of journalists have this like I don't like bothering people I all I do all day is bother people these are things that it forces you So yes, I go out all the time for work.

59:10I am constantly figuring stuff out, but, and I like, but I am not, it's doesn't, it's not that it comes natural to me. It's that it like, the job I have has forced it to happen, which is interesting. But the other thing I was going to say is, do you, I mean, to me, what it says is you're an incredibly hard worker. Like all of this stuff like you coming up with great guest list. That is not easy. I do some events at Puck and it's the first time I've had to like come up with guest lists and things. And it's really good when the brand has an objective so you can sort of figure it out. But like all of that stuff just has to sort of come from your brain and collaborating with your team.

59:54And that takes a lot. This stuff takes a lot of work. It's not just you showing up at these two events. Like the stuff that had to happen to make these events work is so much on top of doing a magazine, on top of doing everything else, on top of your kids and your husband and your life and all of that. It's really, I mean, the amount of work you've put into all of this is, do you think your work ethic, maybe we can close with this. Do you feel like your work ethic is the thing that has like, really is the secret to your success or one of them? Yeah, I do. And also I think my like perseverance, you know, like I'm just like, I'll just, I, I just keep kind of forging forward.

1:00:36I don't, you know, and, and honestly, everyone says that. And I always say, I hope people can say other things about me besides that I work too much and I'm so busy. Um, but I have to say, I absolutely love work. I never, I never feel, I never feel like, oh my God, like there's, there's actually nothing like, I mean, I'm very spend a lot of time with my family. I'm very lucky. My kids are all incredibly hardworking kids. I watch how they, you know, as they begin to enter the workforce, I watch how they conduct themselves. I watch how they think about things. They send me emails ahead of time. And, you know, that's how I was.

1:01:09I had great, you know, reverence for the workforce. My dad was a workaholic. My mom worked a lot. She started her own company when, you know, she was very young. And I wish a lot of things probably about my life, but I don't wish I worked less. A hundred percent, Sarah. Thank you. I love working. It's the best. The best. If I didn't work, I would be, watch out. You know, it's funny. I had a seven-month maternity leave, very generous from Business of Fashion, and I loved it. You know why? Because that's a job. Well, when I told my kids that I was going on your podcast, the first thing they said was, she has a cute kid.

1:01:55Oh, that's very sweet. They are very cute too. I mean, he is just the cutest, but it is, it is amazing. And I'm sure that they are just so proud of you. I think about this a lot as my kid gets older and he's starting to notice that I leave and we'll be like, oh, you're leaving. He's very, uh, as they call securely attached. So he doesn't like freak out if either of us, my husband travels for work a bit as well. And he's just, he's fine. like he will be like I miss mommy or I miss daddy but he's not like a total basket case when we leave but I've been thinking about it a lot and the thing I keep coming back to is like I'm gonna be a better mom when I'm here and look I think there's sacrifice you know I think there's sacrifice but I think what you know what helped guide me was like I think I wouldn't have been a better mother had I worked less.

1:02:50But I can't say that I didn't have, you know, healthy heaps of guilt and, you know, all the things. And I wouldn't, I mean, it's just hard. Like, there aren't, you know, I'm sure your son's not calling you complaining yet, but soon. And there aren't things and not that, I mean, just where they need you. And you're needed somewhere else. You're either walking on stage or you're on a deadline or an advertiser needs you. And, And, you know, there's sacrifice and it's hard and it's humbling. And I have to say, I always think about working moms, no matter what career they're in. And I have a really great respect for all that we do.

1:03:28And I don't think it's easy on anyone. I think it just hits us differently at different points. And it's, you know, it's affected my kids for sure. But, you know. For the good, too. Yeah, exactly. Sarah, you're an inspiration. Thank you for being here. Thank you so much. I'm so glad to know you. And I'll see you later this week. Thank you. Let's see if I make my flight. Fashion People is a presentation of Odyssey in partnership with Puck. This show was produced and edited by Molly Nugent. Special thanks to our executive producers, Puck co-founder John Kelly, executive editor Ben Landy, and director of editorial operations, Gobby Grossman.

1:04:12An additional thanks to the team at Odyssey, J.D. Crowley, Jenna Weiss-Berman, and Bob Tabador.