Celine Mania and Meghan Markle’s Misstep

0:04Hello and welcome to Fashion People. I'm Lauren Sherman, writer of Puck's fashion and beauty memo line sheet. And today with me on the show is none other than Terry Agins, former Wall Street Journal fashion reporter and author of The End of Fashion, How Marketing Changed the Clothing Game Forever. Happy Tuesday, everyone. Hope you are enjoying Paris if you're there. I'm in Los Angeles. I'm also enjoying myself. I'm enjoying the beautiful weather. Monday's line sheet was super packed. There was some executive changes at LVMH. I had my take on Michael Ryder's Celine. Lots of thoughts from lots of people on this one.

0:47It's really fun. I love all these new designers. It's making it fun again. I also have some thoughts on the Valentino caring situation, some celebrity stylist change-up news, and plenty more. And on Tuesday, Sarah gets into the magic of Aritzia and why everybody wants to copy it right now. I feel like Aritzia, if Aritzia was a teenage girl, she'd be like, why are you copying me? Because literally every single high street or mall brand is trying to do what Aritzia does. And Sarah shares some of their merchandising and customer service secrets. Also, if you're at the shows in Paris, send me a message.

1:28I know it was only a couple more days, but it's always fun to hear from you. I love those morning dispatches. Let's get going with Terry.

1:39Terry Aikens, welcome to Fashion People. Hey, I'm really glad to be here, Lauren. So let's get started. I'm so happy to be here. So you just we were just chatting you, you. I'm so happy you're here. So so we were just chatting about your amazing trip that you took and you had a close encounter with the Bezos wedding, right? You were in Venice like right before. Yes. Yeah. My husband and I were there for about 10 days. It was, the weather was hot, tons of tourists as usual. And of course, there was a lot of buzz about the wedding. We were talking to different people who worked there, people at the hotel and the Venetians were kind of had mixed feelings about this.

2:17Of course, they were happy to have the, all the millions of dollars that'll come there from, to Venice. And, you know, and they're used to a lot of these, you know, a lot of these disruptions because you know they have a biennale every year um you know diane von firstenberg foundation i mean there's a lot of there's always a lot of things going on in venice but they were kind of miffed about this yeah what and it was essentially because it was sort of taking the whole city yeah well i think the thing is is this and and i think that it's about the fact that bezos is so outsized i mean this a lot of other celebrities have had weddings there you know george clooney had a big wedding there.

2:58But I think it's just that Bezos is, I mean, here he is, one of the world's richest men. And, you know, they're giving this really, having this really ostentatious over-the-top wedding. Apparently they took over a lot of the gondolas and, you know, they had lined up a lot of the big hotels. And so, as I said, they were kind of, the Venetians were excited about this, but they're also kind of pissed. I mean, you know, people are suffering and also people are also saying like, why can't he pay taxes? I think there was a Greenpeace banner that said like this man spending all this money in Venice, why can't he pay his fair share of taxes?

3:40Sure. I mean, this is the question of all rich people. Why don't they want to pay for anything. Exactly. Right. Yeah. And, and the other thing is too, is, is that, I mean, when you have the Kardashians, the Trumps, you know, everybody's arriving in these, you know, all these private jets and, you know, I just, it was just over the top. I think it was too much and it's tacky. And, but at the same time, you know, this is what, this is the, this is the world we're living in. I mean, this is all the, you know, all these would be oligarchs. This is, this is the way that they live. And my husband always calls this the politics of envy because here, you know, all this excess that they're shoving in our faces.

4:26And I don't think people are jealous. I just think people are kind of turned off. There's nothing sophisticated about this at all. It's just tacky. No, there is truly nothing sophisticated about it. But you know what I did think was sophisticated or at least extremely fun and and in some ways sensational is this Michael Ryder debut at Celine on Sunday it Celine is an LVMH owned brand it's had many many different designers including Michael Kors Phoebe Philo and Heddy Slaman and Michael Ryder who who was at Celine for, I think, about a decade and then went to polo Ralph Lauren and was instrumental in reviving that part of the Ralph Lauren universe.

5:15This was his first collection. And I sent you a link yesterday. I'm so curious what you think about it. I've been chatting with people all, you know, on every single platform about it. Everyone, all anyone wants to talk about is Michael. Yeah, no, it looks sensational. And, you know, I remember when the other Michael, Michael Kors, was hired to work at LVMH, and he was there, he was the first designer to actually turn Celine into a brand. Now, we're talking about like around 1998. And, you know, Michael Kors had that very clean American look, and he really did put Celine on a map, on the map in a real way.

5:57And then, And, you know, through the years, we saw Phoebe, Philo, you know, and Hedy Slaman and all them there. So I think that Michael Ryder was, I think that he really, what was, I think what was really smart about this collection is, is that it looked incredibly, it looked sophisticated. It had that patrician chic, I think, like, you know, that updated kind of Sloan Ranger. The way the scarves were, they look kind of like Hermes scarves, but with the prints, there was that preppy classic, the camel and red. I mean, I saw a lot that was very appealing. But it was done in such a really offhand way.

6:41I mean, obviously, there was a lot of styling that made this look really cool. But, you know, the flat shoes, the only thing I didn't really like were the, there was the, the Celine logo on the shoes on those, on those kind of flat boots that I thought was kind of, you know, but I think that was more just for, you know, its runway and it, and it, it, and it gave a nice kind of branding for the brand. But I think that this really, this collection really was an incredible debut for him. And I think that the Celine customers and also the way the women live, I think it's really going to connect with a lot of people.

7:23I agree. I agree about the sort of wrestling type shoes with Celine on them. I thought the logo stuff, the logo t-shirts and things, it was just wasn't necessary. Every, the stuff was so, I love the scarves actually, but the, the logo t-shirts and stuff, I just didn't, the collection didn't need it. I thought shout out to Brian Malloy, who, who styled the collection I hear and is, is probably my number one stylist working right now. He works with the row. he works with Tory Burch and I just think he, he has a very good sense of like how real people dress. And I find it very inspiring. I thought that it was so much like you said, this patrician, the slow ranger, I said in my little item, it reminded me of like 1980 Spiegel catalog.

8:12I thought, um, it was also just Michael is around in, I think in his early forties, it just was a lot of my friends. I'm 42. It felt like it was very much of a person who is of our generation. And there was I love the little dance shoes. I love the menswear. And I thought a lot of the menswear was stuff that women would wear, too. My only sort of criticism of it was that I thought they could have cut 20 looks, especially the evening wear. It just felt like there was so much and it was really fun. And honestly, I'd say the feedback for this in my personal network has been more positive than the feedback for Jonathan Anderson at Dior.

8:55A lot of people really love that. I love that too. But this was sort of, everyone was like, wow, I really want to wear this. I really want to buy it. It was very, very wearable. And also, I mean, the way that he layered a lot of the colors, you know, there was a red and they had that kind of green. It was that kind of grass green, which I love and you rarely see. And also there were some really good faux furs that I thought that really worked out. And it felt very Ralph Lauren. I mean, even with the ties, you know, it felt, it had Ralph Lauren, but it still, it felt very European because you've got that, you know, the broad shoulder and then the really nipped in waist and with the jackets.

9:39No, it was hip. It had a nice edge to it. And it was incredibly wearable. My issue with all fashion shows, I wish that designers would like stay in their lane. I mean, we don't need to see, you know, no one's going to Celine to buy gowns. Right? And you don't need all those party dresses. And also, you know, slapping the logos, those oversized logos on the T-shirts. I mean, I know that's all kind of fashion show. That's part of the branding that they do for a show. And I agree with you, it's not necessary. But, you know, designers feel like they have to have, I think there were like 72 looks or so on this show.

10:16And like you said, they could have cut out some of those. But it was still very tightly edited, I thought. Smart. I love that. Didn't you love that crease down those jeans? Oh, my God. The jeans are so good. I loved it. That crease, I thought that was a really good look. And also, and it was the way that the, they weren't just wide pants. They came in at the bottom. Yes. Yeah, the kind of peg leg. Thanks. Yeah. I don't like the really, really wide pants. I hate all those really, really wide pants. I think there can be kind of sloppy, but there was a lot of control in this. I like this collection.

10:49And, you know, and it goes with the Celine branding that, as I said, Michael Kors started in 98, Phoebe, etc. And so bravo. So question for you. What was it like when because I started I started covering luxury in like 0506 in in earnest? What was it like in the late 90s when Bernard Arnault was when Tom Ford was at Gucci and Bernard Arnault was sort of hiring all these young American designers to be at the brands? Like, what did you think when they hired Michael Kors to be at Celine or Narciso to be at Loewe? Like, what was, as a reporter, what was your sort of, were you like, what is this guy doing?

11:37We were all intrigued because this is the first time, I mean, you know, LVMH had really, I mean, this was a huge gamble. And to hire all these guys, especially, and the one that really surprised me was Mark Jacobs. Because I kept saying, you know, I can't see him working in a corporate environment. And as you might recall, at the beginning, he had, you know, it was a very fitful start for him. And, you know, and they finally, you know, he finally hit pay dirt with the things he did with Stephen Sprouse, etc. But that time was, it was a time of, I know hired people, hired designers who had a big footprint in the, we didn't have social media back then, but they certainly were runway darlings.

12:21all of them. And this goes with Alexander McQueen, Galliano, and also, and even in Narciso, because, you know, Narciso had already done that big wedding with JFK and Carolyn Bessette. And so he hired these people with the hopes of really trying to explode and make these brands, not just couture brands, but something that would really reach a lot of people. So it was a big gamble. And, you know, and it really paid off. I mean, you look at it back then, and I remember talking to Narciso because they put Narciso Rodriguez at Loewe. And Narciso was kind of like, you know, he didn't really get a lot of direction.

13:03And I know he wasn't really happy being there. And, you know, and he, you know, it just didn't go anywhere. But then Michael Kors, Mr. Arnault adored Michael Kors. I remember he even told me when I did my first book, we talked about this experiment. And Michael Kors was his favorite of the designers because he said, this guy does trunk shows. He likes to talk to consumers. And Michael Kors was always very, very, you know, he's corporate. And he looked at things in that way. So Mr. Arnault was really enamored with Kors. At that beginning time, obviously with McQueen and with Mark Jacobs, as I said, it was fitful, but it was something that was a grand experiment.

13:49A lot of us kind of wondered if it was going to work, but it did in the long run. And then years later, when we saw LVMH come out with Sephora, which was a real departure from, I mean, everything, people bought cosmetics at department stores. And so Sephora was a big deal. But by then, And I think LVM knew what they were doing. And, and, you know, the rest is history. Well, really quickly on, Oh, Terry, you got to come back and we'll just do a, a Terry's career outline because I, I, one more thing on this. Sure. So he loved, Arnaud loved Coors. I understand that. I always say whenever I meet young American designers who are like, I don't want to do trunk shows.

14:36I'm like, fine. You're not going to become a billionaire like Michael Coors. Cause that's what you, He still does drug shows. He still goes to shops and meets with people. And that's that's one of the secrets to success. But in 04 or 03, LVMH sold their stake in Michael Kors to Silas Chow and all the and and John Idol and all those guys. And then and Michael Kors stopped designing Celine. What happened? Like, what do you think? Do you think that is it back to this thing of at some point Arnaud realized I actually am not in the business of American like Seventh Avenue brands? And and that was just the first move to I don't know, but I don't think separate himself.

15:23I think that at that point he probably didn't see this as, you know, they LVMH became a lot more commercial in the, you know, mid 2000s than it was at the beginning. and uh and then i think michael also he had you know i remember talking to him about this he was good he he did his he did his gig at at saline he did a great job he was ready to move on because he wanted to concentrate on his brand and as you know arnaud was never i mean when he hired mark jacobs for example even though arnaud invested in the mark jacobs label his job mark's job was to focus on LV. The Louis Vuitton was his brand.

16:08And so that was what kept anyone. He kept them for like 16 years. So at LV and the Marc Jacobs brand really never went anywhere because that was, but Michael Kors was always interested in his brand. And the one thing that Chow and Stroll did, which was so marvelous is they really zeroed in on Michael Kors as a kind of a celebrity. I mean, he was on Project Runway all that time. And then that's when they zeroed in on the accessories. But it was, you know, with that kind of department store, Luke's, and, you know, and department stores loved it because it was another luxurious, you know, it had a cool factor and it wasn't preppy.

16:54But it, you know, and this was really kind of taking the place of what Calvin Klein was at one point. And it was a really smart move. And it worked out. And, you know, they turned it into a billion dollar brand. But I don't know what Arno, I don't know if they were, but it was also, a lot of that was also centered in the U.S. And I think that at that time, you know, Arno was still thinking, you know, more in a global sense, you know? Yeah. And I think there is a thing of that business is the businesses of Ralph Lauren and Michael Kors and even to an extent Mark Jacobs, but not as now, but not then those were, you know, Macy's businesses.

17:38And that just isn't the business that they're in. The margin is different. I don't know in the future. It's someone said to me, the Michael Ryder Celine collection was a good argument that Arnaud should buy Ralph Lauren, but it is. Yeah, I think that I think that you nailed it.

18:22Another thing that you sort of owned in your career is writing about the development of the relationships between celebrities and brands. And one thing that I have been following sort of closely, just tracking updates occasionally, is sort of the relationship between celebrity stylists and celebs. And in Monday's line sheet, I have a little item about Pedro Pascal has switched stylists. He went from working with Julie Regoglia, who is a primarily editorial stylist. She works with a lot of men. She does Xenia. She styles their show and collaborates with them very closely to Jamie Mizrahi, who is has really good relationships.

19:16She has a sort of relationship with Louis Vuitton in particular, but also with all tons of designers. And she's she She does Jennifer Aniston. She does Adele. She does Jennifer Lawrence. She's like a big celeb stylist. And Pedro just started working with her. He has a bunch of big press tours. And she posted about it last week. And it's not anything. It's just a sort of incremental update. But I did think it was interesting because as he's become a bigger star, he is working with someone who works with big stars. Like that's that's their gig and helps them get contracts and all of that stuff. Yeah, that's the way it goes.

19:59I mean, the celebrity, the celebrity relationship with the stylist has been going on now. I mean, when I wrote Hijacking the Runway House, celebrities are stealing the spotlight from fashion designers that came out in 2014. I think that's also Lauren when we first met because you interviewed me. But I watched this, you know, this development go on and on with, and I just saw how important it was for a lot of these celebrities who, let's face it, a lot of them don't have a really good sense of fashion. And they need a celebrity fixer to come in here and help them find their look, find their branding, and keep it going, not just for red carpet, but for their whole lifestyle.

20:46I mean, and that has really developed over the years. And so it's really important also for a lot of these celebrities who now want to have their own brands or actually make money on this instead of just being just a billboard. it's really important for them to have an expert a stylist who has all this access to all these different designers and they can pull in the right looks and and put them together in a way that doesn't look contrived and and the best ones i mean when you think of all roach and these guys you know look what he's done with zendaya i mean these celebrity stylists are huge and the other thing too is don't forget if you're an actress or uh or even a singer i mean you're not making the kind of money that, when we think of Cameron Diaz and Jennifer Lopez, when they had those$20 million paydays doing all those movies, they're not making money like that anymore.

21:42So nowadays, this is the only way for them to monetize their fame, is to really latch on to this whole celebrity branding with them as fashion icons. So this is something that is really important. And finding the stylists, you know, who can really help, who can really understand them. I mean, even I'm thinking about Michelle Obama. And even though she's not planning to do any fashion line, I mean, look what Meredith Cooper, that relationship with them has really given her a new identity. She wanted a completely different identity from what she had at the White House. And she's been able to come into her own with the help of the stylists.

22:28True. I think their relationship is so unique and is a great example of clothes communicate so much and no one understands that better than you. But if if you have the right stylist, I also see a lot of celebrities these days switching up stylists, not because there is sort of I think with this this situation with Julie is and Pedro is a good example. Like you just move into a different part of your career and you or or you need to you just want to change it up. It's sort of like at all the brands, they change shoe designers all the time because they don't want the shoes to sort of you. You need to mix it up and and add a new layer to your brand, your personal brand and all of that.

23:19And there are certain people like some celebrities have stylists for daytime and stylists for red carpet events. There's, you know, this woman, Danny, Michelle does a lot of she does some red carpet, too, but she does a lot of sort of daytime styling for some of the bigger influencers and celebs. So I think that part of it's interesting to one person who does not employ a full time stylist. As far as I know, she actually did at some point work with Jamie Mizrahi. I did a piece about it, but they don't work together anymore. More as far as I know, maybe they're all hiding it from me. Who knows?

23:56But is Meghan Markle, who has been once again in the news in the last week about, as ever, her brand that is this partnership with Netflix, they were going to release a new batch of jams and flower decoration, cookie decorations and tease. And there's been a bunch of reporting done. Rachel Sturgatz over at line sheet did a piece about as ever. And the sort of relationship Megan has with Netflix, which I want to explain to you and, and see and get your opinion on, cause it's really unique. But also this week there were just, there was a lot on the internet, essentially, as you mentioned to me before we started, People are mad because the jam is runny because it's actually which whatever.

24:44Who cares? The other thing they were upset about is the fact that this stuff is being produced in the same factory or or white labeled by the Republic of T, a big kind of mass brand. The thing that I wrote in line sheet, which is quite obvious, is like everybody knows that this is the only way you can produce stuff en masse. If everybody wants their jam, if everybody wants their tea, she has to work with one of these bigger factories. This is how Trader Joe's makes everything. They work with the same factories that all your brand names at your grocery store work with. And it's just called white labeling and everybody needs to chill out.

25:26But the thing that I think is interesting and I think potentially just shows a lack of long-term insight is so Megan and Harry really need to make money. They have a lot of expenses. The royal family doesn't pay for their security. They've been cut off in certain ways. They have to make money. That's why they have this over all deal with Netflix. But the way that this as ever brand is structured is, and Rachel did a bunch of reporting on this. It's essentially a Netflix brand that they, I don't know the like specifics of the contract, but it's definitely not, it's not even a license in the, in the traditional way where she's just getting a cut and someone who it's not a brand management firm.

26:19It's Netflix itself is managing this project. And And I get it for like Bridgerton, which is a franchise for them. And they're going to make all the merch or whatever. Yeah. Whatever show you watch. Well, yeah. Because it's kind of seamless. Uh-huh. Yeah. But for like Meghan Markle, who needs to make money, this brand is attached to Netflix. Like, do you think it's a very unorthodox way to do something as someone who she could sell, she could make beauty products, she could make clothes. People would buy anything she made. In my mind, it would have been smarter for her to work with like eccentric brands, which does the foster sisters favorite daughter or to raise money and do like something along the lines of Skims partnership where you have operators.

27:11But, you know, let me I remember and I wrote about this when the Kardashians got started. You know, they first they had their that that store called Dash and then they had that, you know, disastrous situation with Sears and they did some stuff with BB. I mean, you know, it takes a while to kind of figure out where you should, you know, where is your sweet spot where you can really connect with consumers. and you know finally Kim figured out that hey you know I'm big on my whole thing with the body so of course why don't I you know jump into that and that was that was really smart with her with Skims.

27:49With Megan you know I don't know I mean that TV show was I loved the series I thought it was really cute it was it was I mean it was a little bit contrived but it was fine and it was all these hacks that we all like to know about when, you know, taking a recipe or taking, you know, some little decorating touch with, you know, even the flowers, the edible flowers, and using sprinkling those on to make things look good. I mean, I think that she has a lot of great cool ideas here. But to turn this into like a really big business, it's going to take a long time. And also, I don't know if they're if the issue is that they're in a hurry because something like this is it's kind of organic.

28:34It's got to catch on. But the thing is, they are in a hurry. Yeah, they really need money. And they also you're like this thing is selling out. Everything's selling out, but she doesn't have any control over it. So like they are the thing of the reasons Skims has worked is because Kim has the Jens and Emma Greed who are, who are operators. Yeah. So the thing that I, I just don't understand, like, I just don't understand their thinking. I understand what you're saying about this is a sort of warmup, but I, it just seems like it, for people who there's, if she wears something and it's all wrinkled and looks insane, people buy it.