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1:44Hello and welcome to Fashion People. I'm Lauren Sherman, writer of Puck's fashion and beauty memo line sheet. And today with me on the show is Rose Kolkert, founder of Cuckoo Intimates. We discuss aesthetics, bras, starting a business during the pandemic, and a whole lot more. Before we get going, I wanted to remind you that if you like this podcast, you'll definitely love Puck, where I send an email called Line Sheet. If you're a fashion person, you get that reference. it's an original look at what's really going on inside the fashion and beauty industries line sheet is scoopy analytical and above all fun along with me a subscription to puck gains you access to an unmatched roster of experts reporting on powerful people and companies in entertainment media sports politics finance the art world and much more if you're interested listeners of fashion people get a discount.

2:40Just go to puck.news slash fashion people to join puck or start a free trial. Happy Friday, everyone. I am pre recording this because I'm on vacation. So I'm in a forest. Something major happened. I'll jump on. Obviously, I wouldn't go somewhere without internet. Do you think I'm insane? But really, I'll be back next Tuesday with everything that's fit to discuss. If you have any requests, ping me. Taking a break is important. I'm reading multiple books at a time. And enjoy this conversation with Rose. We talked a lot about working out and running a small business. So I hope you enjoy it.

3:24Rose Colcord, welcome to Fashion People. Hi, I'm so excited to be here. I'm so happy to have you. What did you have for breakfast this morning? I don't usually have breakfast, but I dragged myself out of bed to go to a workout this morning. So I was like, I need something. So I had a bagel with almond butter and an apple chopped. I thought I'd go the extra mile rather than just chomp into it. I chopped it up. What workout did you do? That sounds delicious. it was not it was like a nice well-rounded meal I did soul cycle which is kind of basic but I don't really drink and I have a two-year-old so it's kind of my version of like a night out I feel you I understand I'm not a bike I'm not a cyclist I used to do it I don't like like the vibe of it anyway but also but I used to do it because I like um I'm a big runner like I like sweating and getting really overworked which it does and it's fun and I feel like there's been a lot of narrative around I don't know everyone seems to be really into like Pilates right now and I love yoga but I feel I think of my energy like a pressure cooker in a way and I have to let out steam so I've recently got into running since I have my daughter too because just it's so easy to just put on your trainers get out the door go on a run and yeah come how long have you been running for am I allowed to ask you questions back sure sure I feel like I talk about myself too much but um I started in like 14 2014 I was and it became I'm not as much as now I'm very into Pilates post baby and like honestly running I went real hard I guess with everything like suddenly I had never run more than like a mile and a half in my life and suddenly I was like I'm doing marathons but um and now my hips are and like I became a really intense runner then I had a baby and like my hips and joints and stuff are just so fucked so like I do a lot of Pilates now and I run once a week but um I just find and I really like the Pilates like my I'm happier with my body than I've ever been because of the Pilates and I do a lot of little strength training too but like the Pilates is just it's just changed like I have a little bit of a butt which I've never you know that kind of stuff but there's nothing like running and it and also post baby agreed like you don't have time to go to a class and I went to my doctor six weeks they were like yeah you can start I went that day and went for a run yeah I'm real hardcore like my body's fucked my it's totally wrecked well it sounds not so much I it's so much since you've been doing Pilates but like it's funny you say that I did um I know this isn't a Pilates podcast but I did like a Pilates class yesterday.

6:44How old's your daughter? He's a son five. Oh, he's son five. My daughter's two. And I, funnily enough, signed up to a Pilates class yesterday because although running, I'm like naturally very like cerebral and quite anxious. And so I need exercise that like gets out some of that energy, which running does. Pilates, is but then i'm like i really need to get stronger because although i'm like kind of like i've shrunk that's not what i like care about i'm like i really need to feel like stronger like i could not do a single setup a semi like i need to do this but like i also noticed damn like my hips feel so different like but yeah anyway it's wild it's wild well i mean the body and and it it is connected to what we're going to talk about today, which is Cuckoo Intimates, which I don't know if you know, I wrote a book about Victoria's Secret.

7:46I do. And I have it on my shelf. And I have been intending to read it for the last year. And just, you know, because, yeah, if I were you, you know what I would do? Put it in chat GPT and be like, what are the big takeaways here? I'll send you the PDF of it. I don't mind. You bought the book. I appreciate you. I really am excited to read it. Well, so I'm very interested in this market and have been following what you've been doing since pretty early. But first off, I wanted to talk a little bit more about you other than your exercise routine, which we could literally spend 45 minutes on. Where are you from?

8:25How did you get into this business what are you doing on fashion people so where am i from i i'm from born and raised here in london my family is my mom's side is from up north liverpool which i think actually uh contributes a lot to my kind of work ethic i joke around that where my like nana and my mom are from in liverpool that image of the outskirts of suburban liverpool is part of what drives me forward like i am not going back there um uh but my and my dad's from from uh the u.s um but yeah i what where is your dad from in the u.s he he they he his his dad was from kentucky but he grew up in Italy and then New York and then came to to London so he's a bit of a mashup okay cool but how did I end up here on fashion people I but how far back do I go I mean I I was always obsessed with like what the New York and LA girls were wearing even in high school I didn't want what like the London girls in my class were wearing I was like oh what's you know what's going on out there because you guys were the callers so I would send my friends in New York and LA things I wanted and they'd bring them back for me when they came which a lot of people was like oh surprise that cuckoo's majority are US market for us but I think I inherently have a US consumer mind I went to Gallatin NYU lived in New York for a couple years then I was really homesick And for me, I think New York was just like a bit overstimulating.

10:23Like I've realized it's really important for me to have nature around me and kind of easily accessible to touch grass, as they say. And so I moved to LA and I transferred to USC to finish my degree in philosophy, where I was focusing on ethics and really like literature and philosophy in literature, rather than like, I felt that I'd always been passionate about philosophy. Me and my dad studied philosophy at Stanford, but not, you know, not like logic, not in your, in the high tower of philosophy. I was really about like, how do we, you know, what is it to like be human and like what makes our lives like meaningful and what is the right thing to do and how to spend our time here.

11:23And I felt like philosophy felt so inaccessible, but when you just narrow it down to like storytelling you can you can really connect with so much of that um so i was applying to do my master's in philosophy and then as you've referred to him my knucklehead boyfriend one day when i was innocently getting changed asked me why i didn't have any nice underwear and i was like you cheeky sod i've got a whole draw of agent fuck at all la parla like what are you talking about bear in mind i'd been with him for i think it was like four years by that point so like those weren't coming out the drawer as much um but he was like no i'm in your daily underwear it's like granny panties and then that kind of just was the the moment that kind of changed everything and yeah it all tumbled from there yeah it's interesting because we kind of came up in i mean you're younger than me but i i'd say like these generations around us came up in this era where alexa chung made it put it really well it's like we like purposefully made ourselves look less sexy or something like it was not okay to sexualize things like everyday underwear like like and there just weren't any options like it was like victoria's secret or or lacy underwear or i used to wear amazon cotton underwear there wasn't a lot on the market that the and the the underwear can we talk a bit about so like I want to hear about when why I you he said this to you I assume you weren't immediately like well I'm going to start this very cute brand let's I don't want to go too all over the place but one thing I wanted to ask you when you're looking at the imagery from the U.S.

13:22and like I'm into that who what were what would be on your mood board like what movies and and art and fashion and stuff were you into in that time okay so firstly what you said about that you know oh i either had my lingerie or my granny panties was that it wasn't like oh he said that and then i was like okay i'm gonna start cuckoo it was that same realization i when i was like oh you know what you're talking about i've got a whole drawer of agent lapela like what what do you mean and he said no I mean your daily underwear is like granny panties there was this realization of like wait he's so right but where where do I go what else is there and then I realized he he had one draw of like premium Calvin Klein's which I was like that's a cool brand and then I had these two drawers of performative lingerie that I only wore to look sexy like yes sometimes there's a power in like wearing you know push-up lacy lingerie like for yourself I'm like also all into that like I still have some Asian folk tour pieces but I've came to feel that that the dichotomy between those two draws really represented a choice that as women we have to make every day between am I going to feel sexy and not comfortable or am I going to feel comfortable and not beautiful and I've I felt like that was so backwards because I really believe that as women we feel our most comfortable we are we feel our most beautiful when we're our most comfortable and I who's on the mood board is people who inspire me and and when i was thinking at the time okay virginia wolf joan didion there's no way virginia wolf wrote a room of one's own in sequined push-up hot pink bra and like synthetic scratchy like lingerie she she must to do you know your work you need to feel comfortable and feel confident so that experience is what I recognized and I was like okay how can I make a product that really bridges that gap between not just those two drawers but everything that represents and I also felt at the time that I wasn't wearing bras anymore now that gravity has taken its hold after having a baby I do um but i was like bras aren't as much what you know they were like women of that generation my generation at the time i felt like it wasn't really about laundry it was more comfort driven so tank tops and all of that and so when i started cuckoo it was who was on the mood board going round about um was i mean people who have really kind of come more into culture recently um i'd say jane barkin just represented this sense of like effortless femininity that i wanted cuckoo to represent the work of john cassare bell hooks and then a lot of baby clothing like a lot of a lot of nostalgic baby clothes were and that's where the pointel came about was it had this element of nostalgia to it but that i felt could be redefined for the modern woman and And so we launched with Pointel and that was our first fabric base.

17:19So I want to hear about how you decided to like get into business. And maybe the thing that I'm interested in from writing about Victoria's Secret, I know that the lingerie market and the way you produce bras. First of all, it's really hard to construct a bra, especially an underwire bra, which you just started doing. but there's like a million different parts. And there are also, the market used to be like, I believe in like Germany and Switzerland, a lot of production. And then they moved a lot of it to Sri Lanka with Victoria's Secret did a lot of that. And now there are a lot of factories there, but the A, it's not like super, it's not like a t-shirt where you can just get that made anywhere.

18:09and then B, it's a very interesting market because there aren't that many players compared to fashion. But once someone buys a bra, they stick with the company forever. You could wear the same brand for 20 years. So again, this is too many questions, but I'm very excited about this topic. Well, let's start with why did you finally decide to do it? like what what was the turning point the turning point for me was and I'm mutually as excited by the way because not many I'm like not many people um are so you know familiar with the market as as you I've I've listened to although I haven't yet read the book although it I really you really I don't have to.

19:03I swear to God. I am going to and I'm going to email you when I have and be so over enthused. I've read like three books since I had a kiddo. That was five years ago. The only way I've got through reading books is to stop watching TV. Yeah, I do a lot of audio. Yeah. Because it's just, it's tough. It's tough to get through a chapter. Before knocking out and falling asleep. I probably get through like two pages a night anyway so what made me finally decide to do it so I noticed that as I I basically noticed that I wanted it I was like I want firstly a product that makes me feel comfortable I want organic cotton essentials and everyday intimates that make me feel comfortable without feeling like I'm wearing like granny panties or you know M &S vests like I want to feel put together and comfortable and confident in my everyday pieces because that's always been my style like I love like vintage but I will I'll take a whole suitcase I just took a whole suitcase to New York for a pop-up of like cute stuff.

20:24I've got vintage and Levi's and a bunch of cuckoo. And I literally just wore my Levi's and my cuckoo and like, like ballet flats. Like that is all I wear. That's my uniform. But I realized that I want, I needed that product as a consumer, but also that I felt like at the time, honestly, the definition of femininity, the image of what it meant to look like and be a woman had really impacted me and my confidence growing up. And I was still carrying that into my 20s, how I related to my body, how I never felt enough, never felt pretty enough, cool enough, charismatic enough, skinny enough, confident enough, X, Y, Z.

21:10And that is a universal, like women you know I know I'm not alone in that and I felt that there was this gap for a brand that reclaimed that narrative away from being so being voyeuristic and defining what it looks like to be a woman from companies that are run by men and I was like there's this other version of femininity that I felt women wanted to embody more that was more real and undone and unpolished we don't use photoshop we used only female photographers like these are all extremely intentional like choices um at cuckoo and yeah I was like okay there's a cultural need and a brand world that I want to live in that I don't yet see.

22:08So I kind of want to try create it, a brand that represented these values of quality over quantity and like this idea that every day is worth wearing your favorites, not just special occasions. That's really the force, like a core philosophy of cuckoo is, is how you live today is how you live your life. that first choice you make every day can set the tone for it and um and then the product piece I was like I want both of these and then I spoke to my professor I was in the middle of applying for my master's in philosophy and I was like to him and I told him about the brand idea we had we we got like very like close and he was like you're not gonna make an impact in the classroom brands tell stories and brands have the power to shift cultural narratives and there's a narrative you want to shift from your experience so give it a go and if it all goes tits up excuse the pun you can always come back and do this later so I've always got a backup plan summer break is here I want my kids to have fun but I also want them to keep their skills sharp Between vacations and sports, I need something that fits our busy schedule without adding stress.

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24:56And so when you started to look into like how to make a pair of underwear, what did you find? Yeah, so I had no experience. I didn't even know where to start. But where I did know what to do first was to, I started with just buying a bunch of every single underwear, every single soft bralette and like camisoles I bought and I made notes of what I liked about it. If anything digged, even a touch, it would be like in the no pile. Women are so loyal with their bras and bralettes. Like if they loved one, they'll come back forever. But same with underwear. Like if someone puts on an underwear and it digs, like they are never going back.

25:44It's so true. I thought for a long time, I just thought it was me. I was like, I guess other people don't mind when their underwear digs. No, no, no, no, no. What's been so interesting about the product development with Cuckoo is we almost like develop through a lens of being so attuned with our like attuned with our how we perceive our bodies and how we feel in our bodies and like what you know how we feel when something digs in so um yeah but where did I start was through market research saying what I liked what I didn't like what I liked about this what I liked about that I started making notes on notes on notes and then when I was finally ready and clear on on the pieces that I wanted the silhouettes the shapes I reached out to I googled sustainable underwear developer in London and found this woman who came from Asian provocateur and the parlor shout out Nicola Hopkins and who wanted if I wanted to develop these pieces with me and I literally had to pitch her because she was like no no I just do lingerie you don't need me and my expertise like if you're doing daily underwear and tank tops and camisoles here like I can help you find a couple factories and use you can use their blocks you don't need my expertise or anyone's to develop daily underwear like it's just not and I literally had to pitch her over a month I was trying to get this woman because I was like this is I think people have like done it since but it was really the first time well I can't say that but she was like it's not done applying lingerie principles to daily underwear I was like well let's do it then and I had to kind of share with her this idea of cuckoo that It was giving the same value to our daily underwear that has only historically been applied to lingerie that's just for, you know, a Friday night and performative.

27:56So that's where I started was with finding the expert. And I worked with her on our first three pieces, which are still three of our bestsellers today. It's amazing. And so what year did you did you launch? we launched at the extreme end of 2021 early 2022 wow so just primed for like still people buying stuff but not totally still at home so they're they're thinking about and i do feel like i don't know this was also the time that i was researching and writing the book so like I had a baby I I started writing a book about underwear I started shopping for underwear constantly because I was like my body's changing because I had a baby and then also the thing you mentioned about women not wearing bras I think it was also like just wearing um wireless bras and I post this is not even have anything to do with changes in my body to be honest, I don't want to like go into this too much.

29:02No one wants to hear about it. But I started wearing underwire bras again for like the first time in years. And it was, it was more about I just like suddenly was like, I, I think I want to wear underwire bras again, I thought I would never wear one again. But there was something happening in the culture when you launch like, the underwire bras, the work sort of coming back, people were and people were sort of starting to pay attention again to their underwear. What do you think it was? Do you think it was like a post COVID thing? Or I mean, that was the middle of COVID. Do you think it was a pandemic thing where people are at home more?

29:40So they're just like paying attention to what they wear to like on their body closer to their bodies? Like, what do you think that was happening that made made it a prime time for you to launch? Or was it the fact that Victoria's Secret was sort of really dipping at that moment. I think with the dip of like VS, there was almost a bit of like an existential crisis. Like women were like, okay, well now where do I go? You know, if that's not resonating with me anymore, if I don't go to Victoria's Secret, where does one go? And when I asked all my friends, where do you buy your underwear and bras?

30:19It was always Amazon or marks and spencers and i think what was interesting was that they're what these weren't you know as consumers we build our identities through the brands we associate ourselves with and the things that we buy so with the decline of these you know who dominated the market previously customers were like okay well now where do i land where do i go and they were going you know to amazon marks and spencers target these bigger fast you know fast fashion giants that had no sense of identity for them and i think that intimates are so are political it's bodies it's identity and i think that that's part of it was was okay you know where do i go now that that's kind of declined and I don't resonate with that ideal of femininity anymore.

31:22Yeah, I think that is it. And I think there was also, after the pandemic, more of a desire for comfort. It was just that became the priority was comfort. And that's everything Cuckoo represents is like, okay we're comfort led so yeah yeah and it's so interesting it's like i'm trying to figure out how to to synthesize this but it reminds me also of like it this was the time that alaya became popular like there was this sort of we had gone through a decade of really conservative clothing and conservatism is was like just like surging in the culture you know during covid it still is obviously and but then there was this part of of i think you're right about like the reclaiming of it's okay to want to like look attractive whereas i think there was a era that it was almost like you weren't supposed to make any effort to look pretty like you was supposed to like you were pretty or you weren't or you were like really hoey or you were you know really conservative and something flipped where suddenly like looking a little sexy was actually acceptable and and encouraged and like this, like almost like a reclaiming of, of that stuff.

33:04And then at the same time, all the Victoria's Secret stuff was happening and they were, and it's interesting now, I'm curious what you think if like, because they have sort of really shifted their, changed their narrative in a way that I think is really convincing. But at the time they were trying really hard to be woke or whatever. And like, I remember they did some podcast advertising, not with me obviously but with other people where they actually use the word woke and I was just like this is so bad and also that stuff was so ugly I feel like I for many years and I still think there's a lot of room in this market like there are not that many but I buy a lot of stuff from you I buy Yasmin Aslami which I love and I buy like a little bit of Eris but I think Eris could be a million times better than it is.

33:53But I think like there was just not many options. It felt very dated. Like there was just nothing to make yourself look good and feel cute, especially for every day. When you launched, like what was the initial reaction? And did you start selling out of stuff really quickly? I know you mentioned the US market is big for you. I remember buying some stuff very early on and being surprised of like how it like all the fabric so natural and everything like it's it's it's not like it didn't feel overdone it felt like very special all the things you were you were making what was when you first hit like what took off and were you surprised i'm sure that it started selling really fast really really quickly yeah so i think the pendulum swung the other way like I was part of that where it was like okay I don't want to be all polished and like have to be perfect all the time like fuck that and then you know was like okay I'm just not gonna like fuck that like I'm not gonna you know try and it was cool not to try and and all of that but then I realized which I think is from my experience and then I think is also reflected in the wider you know maybe other women will relate to is I was like wait I don't feel good on this side either like and it's like you know now I don't wear a full face makeup I don't remember the last time I wore foundation or bronzer but like I like a bit of lip liner and a little eyelash curl like that's the equivalent of cuckoo you know it's if Victoria's Secret is MAC like cuckoo is maybe like say beauty or what Glossier was in that turn of the beauty industry.

35:50And yeah, like what you were saying with the materials was always really intentional from the beginning because fundamentally I wanted this brand and this product to be for women and to make women feel a bit more comfortable and cute and battering themselves in their everyday lives not on the dates and the special occasions but every day and just like even with our content and with our creative it's like I just want to make you know I just want to make women feel a bit more inspired or to recognize something in themselves in our creative and our imagery but when it came to picking our materials I did so much research and um organic cotton is just the the best you know it's like number one gynecologist recommended and also i'm a big advocate for like climate change i feel like since i had my daughter that's even more you know in my consciousness and with organic cotton that also takes accountability for the life cycle of our intimates and daily underwear which is the one thing you know you're not going to resell on depop or buy on vestia collective like i i never i i personally never would have gone into like i never would have made a fashion brand like we don't need more blazers and more dresses we can buy those vintage but i was like okay these are the one one thing that does need to be reproduced and reproduced so how can we make it um have as little impact as possible and organic cotton ticked both those boxes of like best for women best for our skin non-toxic no synthetics no microplastics which have become so much more people have become so much aware of but it also reduced the environmental impact of these garments that no one's really like thought about before but yeah I think when we launched what I'd done was as I was developing the brand I started posting all my mood images on Instagram, like a mood account.

38:03I would share photos of like book quotes that I felt resonated with the values of the brand I was building, mood images of like the pointelle being developed, Jane Burke and John Cassare, literally all of those images onto Instagram. So I built this following up to probably 5 ,000 followers that people thought it was a mood account so by the time that I launched the brand and the product I think people had this emotional attachment to it as more than a product it was like oh this is a way of being and a philosophy in a way and uh and um so I think that sensibility attached to it is what kind of created the foundations that we've had the growth from how did you approach retail did you have any wholesale in the beginning or did you do did you start with direct i've shopped you at le bon marché um which was helpful there's a small selection there but it was helpful because then i just ordered a bunch of stuff we have more coming We have a big pop-up at Le Bon Marché this holiday.

39:15Exclusive. You heard it here fast. I can't wait. Well, exclusif. Exclusif is, if we were saying it in French, exclue if we worked at page six, but we don't. I'm so curious why you're in, like, what takes you to Paris. And I'm also so curious. I wanted to ask, like, what made you so curious about Victoria's Secret? these are two great questions that i will indulge even though people are going to be like she talked too much about herself and her stupid underwear collection in this this episode um the first answer is my husband and kid both have eu passports so we have the ability to live abroad and i have been going to paris on and off for my whole career at least twice a year in 2019 we spent four months in paris and really loved it my husband and i but i was trying to get pregnant and was like I can't be I went to a doctor there and she's like you just need to calm down which just ended up being true no person who's trying to get pregnant wants to hear that but like I went home COVID happened and I got pregnant and and we moved to LA when I started this job I started coming to Europe even more and my husband and I were like let's do second grade in Paris because he speaks French we just thought it would be fun and then before my kid started kindergarten we were like, well, maybe we should just do a few months to try it.

40:41And then we got here and we're like, oh, we're just going to stay. So we're going to stay for now. And because we can, like it's totally legal and we're going to, we'll probably spend the summers in LA and Paris and be in Paris the rest of the time. Also, it's like extremely affordable. It's way more affordable than New York. And to be honest, like I cover the luxury industry, every single business. It used to be when I lived in New York, there I was just with someone who is really involved in the industry here. And I said, look, like when I started 20 years ago, there were still tons of big businesses in America, and there's still Tapestry and Coach, but like, they're not really fashion companies.

41:22That's like a different kind of business. And the industry has consolidated in Paris and Milan. And so it just feels like we want to be in a city, it's way more affordable here than New York. I think with Brexit, it's brought a lot of interesting people here and I don't know we were just my husband and I this one of the reasons we only have one kid because we wanted to like do these kinds of things I have no idea how long we'll stay but we're we're in it um and then on Victoria's Secret I have to be honest with you I don't have a deep interest in Victoria's Secret I don't have a deep interest in underwear people are like oh you must be so passionate about underwear I'm like I'm not actually passionate about underwear no but like honestly what it did do was it made me more interested in the business of basically I had covered it on and off the thing I really don't care about at all is models and Victoria's Secret like a lot of the coverage was always about models like I don't they're cute I don't care I mean I am obsessed with the Giselle Brian Malloy style old Giselle covers of W Magazine.

42:28This is why Sarah Moonves is fashion's true editor-in-chief. But it's so good. But like I had covered it on and off and I had been early to, because of the Epstein connection to Les Wexner and then also just like early on, I used to do when I worked a business of fashion some pretty deep investigative reporting and had started to do some stuff looking into Victoria's Secret pre everything that went down pre I'd raise it and Chantal Fernandez, who is my colleague there who now works at New York Magazine. At one point, she I like could share we were reporting partners on a lot of stuff. And I had shared that I, I had shared a source with her.

43:11And she called me after she talked to this person and said, you should really write a book about this. And I thought I said to her, I was like, you can't write a book, a big corporate book like this anymore by yourself? Do you want to just do it together? And so, and it was COVID and we were bored. And then of course I got pregnant like the minute we started writing the proposal. But yeah, honestly, it was a thing of, I don't write about it every single day. And I felt like it was a thing I could go into really learn the whole thing and then get out. Whereas like LVMH or Caring or Chanel or Hermes, like I probably will write a book about one of those companies someday.

43:47But like, I'm in that every single day. And it's when you're a beat reporter. It's just a different game. But I think the good thing about writing this book about Victoria's Secret is like, I have a really good sense now of what they're doing and have been able to judge what Hillary super is doing pretty, I think fairly and and I am impressed like every time I'm like, she's not going to get it right. She's not going to get it right. She has done a good job running that business. But yeah, it wasn't, I would say that like my interest, personal interest in underwear is never been this much. But a big reason for that is there wasn't anything cute that I liked.

44:27Like I got, I think for my wedding, I had La Perla. A lot of these brands, they don't like really exist anymore in the same way either. And Ares or whatever, like always felt too expensive. I don't want to like say rude things about your competitors, but like there's one that is very cool that might've been in Lost in Translation that I love the brand, but they don't fit. Like it just, the bras don't fit, the underwear don't fit. Like it's so, or not me at least. So like there wasn't a lot. And now it feels like there's more options. And Cuckoo is at the top of that list. I think, do you sell, I don't know if you sell to this shop in Echo Park in LA.

45:13Le Boudoir? Yes. Do you sell there? We're in conversations with them. She's amazing. When that store first opened, I didn't even think about going in because I was like, well, it's going to all be like stuff that doesn't fit right. And that is like, and now like I shop there all the time because there are these brands and I think there's opportunities for more. Like I look at the really high end of the market and I had this conversation with Gabriella Hirsch she was like do you think people would buy it if I made underwear I said yes like there's at the really high end of the market the only like super fancy thing that is like doesn't feel tacky is Eris and it's like not that good so there's like they they could do way better so I yeah it just I think like that's sort of the evolution of why I particularly wanted to have you on.