Drama at Dior & A Bally Appreciation Screed

0:03Hello and welcome to Fashion People. I'm Lauren Sherman, writer of Puck's fashion and beauty memo line sheet. And today with me on the show is New York Times reporter Jacob Gallagher. We're talking men's fashion week, couture, and so much more. Hey, everyone. Hope you had a great weekend. I am back in LA. It has rained. We are all cheering. This week on Line Sheet, I checked in on Phoebe Philo Limited, provided some intel regarding an interesting partnership between Elle Magazine and Substack, and also have an update on how Trump's newly civil relationship with the fashion industry is evolving.

0:47Sarah Shapiro did some work for all of us and investigated why Taylor Swift is suddenly a logomaniac. There's so much more. Check it out. Until then, enjoy the return of Jacob. Jacob Gallagher, welcome back to Fashion People. Happy to be here. It's been some time. I know. I have a new job from the last time I was on. You have a new job. Yeah. But no, I'm glad to be here. Thank you for thinking of me. And yeah, let's do it. Happy to have you. I know all of your fans are going to be very excited that you're back. Oh, no, no, no. I don't. My five fans out there. But yeah, I'm glad to be back talking with you.

1:33So let's get going. We have a lot to cover. You've been in Europe for how long at this point? I left last Thursday, so I've been here for like a week and a half. It's not too bad. It's not too bad. The shrinking of Milan in the kind of decade that I've covered this and that I've been going to Milan, you know, has kind of taken some out of the schedule, at least out of the like volume of the schedule. It's really the same number of days. I just don't do Penny Womo or I didn't do Penny Womo this season. Yeah. But it's nothing compared to women's though. I have to come back for women's in just a month.

2:11So you don't know how happy I am that you're going to be there for women's. I just, I feel so. Are you going to do London too? I will not do London. I'm doing London this time. More power to you. Yeah. I, you know, I love to suffer. Evidently, you know, I, I'm ready for Milan in particular because, you know, know, so many of those Italian brands just have completely moved their men's over to the women's show. So that at least will be a real journey through what those brands are doing. But, you know, I think the Paris portion of the schedule will be perhaps the most interesting for me because that's primarily going to women's shows, which is something that I've really not ever done before.

2:57Well, I'm intrigued. We don't need to get into the history of Jacob or all of that. But I think one of the reasons I like following your work is you are a writer who can talk about both and write about both. You understand women's clothing as well. Probably not as well. But I think in the same way, I can talk about menswear and understand it. Some people are more binary. that you can mix. And I'm curious to see, especially for you, how the dynamics at the women's shows are very different. It's very different than it was even 10 years ago where none of this stuff really matters now. Like you go to the shows and you're kind of like, this doesn't matter, but there is a different vibe at the women's shows versus the men's.

3:46I much prefer going to the men's shows and I don't go to a ton, but like, it's just, I loved going to pity. Well, my one a few times, like there's like a, a really good energy. Whereas the women's shows, there's more of a nervous energy. So I'm curious how you feel at the end of it, because by the end, I'm usually like, get me the fuck out of here. I never want to come back. I got a taste of that last night at the, uh, Peter Copping's debut for non Vaughn, which was full of, every women's editor that I truly could not name. And the energy in the room was just, I mean, obviously the energy in the room was different because that was a debut and that was kind of the big quote unquote debut of the week.

4:26But you could feel kind of an electricity that was a little different than what the men's shows have been. But we could talk a little bit about that one though, though I really don't have much to say on what I saw last night. I have something to say. And I was actually messaging with people at the company that last night. It was I I was this close to buying a ticket, but I had this New York trip booked forever. And it was like I had a commitment on Saturday night that I couldn't miss. And I was like, could I go to this event on at 8 p.m. on Saturday night and take a red eye and go to the show?

5:01For sure. And I decided that that was ill advised. And also, I'm going to be away from my child for like 40 days or something. So it's like I need to just get home. But I was sad to miss, but I do want to hear how it was. Let's let's start with the overall vibe for men's Milan into Paris. Like it seemed like a weird season from the outside. And I really only it was nice to have you at the Times because you were writing about individual shows and had ideas. What was going on? It wasn't like I never read those sort of like review roundups. So when you were pulling out like your Prada review, that type of thing, it I was like, OK, now I understand what's going on.

5:49Sam does a great Sam Hine does a great newsletter where he sort of talks about what he's seeing. But other than that, I I really didn't. Everybody I talked to was like, it's so dead. But what was your feeling as someone who's been covering the men's shows for years about this season? I'm going to steal a take that someone sent to me last night, which kind of brought things into focus for me. I was having a drink with a friend before Lonvan actually what he said was the problem now if you want to call it a problem or just kind of the vibe the the vibe shifter what is kind of weighing on the vibe right now weighing on the feeling is that the big shows those LVMH and Caring shows they're not surprising us they're not startling us I actually disagreed with him a little bit on this but he was kind of saying that he missed those seasons where you had a really fantastic, charming, interesting ex-LVMH brand to start things off, and that set the tone in a way.

6:49And then you could have the kind of counterbalance of big and small, of the big houses and the smaller brands, you know, your Kiko Kostadinovs. I think both of those chunks, if you want to just broadly define those, have shrunken. Like Kiko is what came to mind because Kiko's pretty much one of the very few ones that exist as like a small one that's, you know, wonderful to see. And, and you know, that you're going to get a lot of whimsy and you're going to want to talk about with your peers after Dublay actually is, is what I'm going to throw in there or doublet, however you pronounce it. There was, I couldn't tell.

7:24Oh wow. I was like, what's Dublay? Doublet. Yeah. Which is. It might be Dublay, but I, I think it might be doublet. I don't know. A show that season to season I have not gone to and decided to go to this year. It was just like completely uh like amused and and and i i just felt so enlightened by the show like like it was i was like this is such a cool brand doing a cool thing and so kooky and uh you want more of that like you really really want more of that um because the kind of i would say machine driven i don't want to say sterility but it's almost sterility of what's going on at the big houses is that's and and i would say that maybe the feeling would be different if loeve did show loeve was kind of always that show that was that balance of super corporate super huge and creative and um even from who the celebrities were but you know certainly that was a really uh that was always a high point that was missing this season um for me it just was lighter overall you know it was it It was lighter overall.

8:30Milan is now to the point where it's being, where it's really light to the point of being emaciated. You know, we're always going to go for Armani and for Prada and for Xenia. But, you know, beyond that, it just wasn't, you know, there just wasn't that much going on. I really did like Prada in the moment, I would say. You know, as I wrote in my review, I felt like it was there was several statements going on within it. You know, you know, they denied backstage that they were trying to make any declarative statements. I think that they were kind of making at least a silhouette statement. But I mean, those tighter on the leg, tighter on the calf pants.

9:13The thing I love about Prada is they love to piss you off. I leave that show pissed off a lot. and no matter if I actually liked it, usually commercially I like it because I just think they're fabulous, but she loves to piss people off and in the best way possible. I agree. It always elicits strong feelings. I would say if you read my review and think it's a little too flattering or you don't like what's going on there, go read actually the two back-to-back posts that Tommy Ton put up of photos of people wearing Prada era Prada. So before Raf got there and I felt like Tommy articulated a thing very well about what is different with the brand.

9:59I'm not going to say better, worse, whatever, just what is different. I think your mileage may vary, but I felt like seeing his photos of people in that stuff and then reading what he wrote, I was like, okay, this is, you know, I definitely saw what he meant. You know, I certainly, my first Prada shows were just her and I went to a number of those And it definitely is a different brand. It just is a different brand. But yeah, and I will say from Milan, Xenia, I mean, Alessandro Sartori is just cooking. The stuff is very good. I really enjoyed that. That remains a true highlight. But, you know, when designers were good this season, it felt like they were really in the pocket.

10:41So I don't think that there was a ton of, again, surprise going on. I wouldn't expect surprise from a brand like Xenia, but I think that just doing good clothes well is, you know, fantastic. I really want him to do women's for real. Yeah. Yeah. Because I've been to that showroom and I want to buy so much and sure I could, but like there is a slight difference. And I love, I was thinking about this the other day that just like menswear designers can really move to women's easily. Whereas women's wear designers and speaking of Peter Copping at, at Lombard. Like that is an example of it's not. I thought the men's were look decent, but it is harder.

11:24It's harder. Anyway, let's not get get to that. I want to talk about that at the end. Yeah. So so and yes, on on Loewe really quickly in women's what I would say what has happened in the last few years is that because of because of living in LA I can't go home between Milan and Paris which if I lived in New York I would go home for five days what has happened in the Paris shows is I would say like people love to go to the row but you don't have to go to that like the the goal for people is to get back for Loewe at 11 a.m on Fridays and that's when fashion week really starts in Paris. And it's the same thing, like the big brands that show at the top, it doesn't, I feel like people almost resent that they show so early.

12:14And I do think that the schedule is changing, especially because of what's happening with the Oscars. But let's talk about Dior, because from afar, and I've been to a couple of Kim Jones menswear shows, there's obviously a lot of talk about whether or not this was his last show or second to last show. And like everything thing that I'm hearing it is, but you know, this stuff, these contracts, you know, you just don't, you never know. So I thought it looked, the last one I went to was June, 2023. And the, the fabrications were amazing, but I was like, this is as this guy trying to like audition for Chanel.

12:58I just didn't understand. Anyway, I thought from afar, I asked Jose from Vogue. I was like, was that his best show ever? Like, did you think of Dior? Did you think it was good? What did you think? I mean, I think it was his best show ever. I mean, that was probably the closest review I got to this season that you could call it a rave. Like, I mean, I think I wrote that he was a master of line and I think that that's true I think that he um you know someone said to me like it works because he's the only uh or this one in particular work because he's the only men's designer you know fashion people love talking in hyperbole the only the only men's designer that you know thinks like a women's designer I listen I have no idea what that even means or what, but there certainly were some, like, I'd say, clean parallels to how you would shape a women's collection here, which is, you know, of course.

13:56The thing is, he's not a good women's designer. But he's not, I was just going to say, but of course, that's a very muddled comparison to make because he had Fendi and it did not work just based on, you know, we can say that based on the fact that he's not there anymore. And that wasn't totally his fault. Let's be real. Let's be truthful. I'm not going to judge that in that sense, But, you know, I mean, I guess if we're measuring that on if he's still there, he's not still there. So but this was, you know, I've sat through many of his I really. I went to many a Kim Louie show, and I think that I like those probably more if I if I can make that kind of comparison to most of the Dior shows.

14:35I always felt that there was something very personal coming through in the Louis shows where he was really expressing something that was about, you know, and this is going to sound shallow in a way, but about his travels or about his kind of, you know, even the Supreme thing. Like this is a guy who really – a guy. Kim Jones really was a streetwear collector, is very knowledgeable about that world. Like even though that was probably the thing that accelerated the kind of commercialism of Louis Vuitton to the frenzy that it is now, the inciting incident really I think was true to what Kim was. At Dior, though, I've always felt that he was maybe a little too deferential and bogged down in a way by the archive.

15:25Sometimes he would express something about where something came from in the archive, and I would think, I know you're really plumbing that archive, but I'm not quite sure if it's landing 100%. And then also the collaboration kind of immediately, you know, that cause collaboration and then Daniel Arsham and Travis Scott and, you know, these things. It's very easy for your eyes to become numb to those. This one was just so clean and it was so refined and it was not laid down. It was not heavy on bags. It was not heavy on sneakers. It was just very, very clean. It was a very clean articulation of form and of what I think is Kim Jones's best asset, which is really his technical know-how is really, really impressive as a men's designer.

16:13And it really was just such a sharp statement. And yeah, you know, who knows where those clothes go? You know, I was speaking with someone yesterday that was saying, you know, you loved it, but those clothes don't sell. Sure. Okay, fine. But but but I think they sold at some point. I don't think they're selling now, but it's I'm judging the runway show on what it was. And and I think that there was it was a statement of cleanliness, a statement of, I think, authority over thread and fabric. And I think that, you know, if you want to read into it, there was perhaps some kind of statement there about what his future may be.

16:55Or what I actually read more directly was a statement on what, you know, he's kind of gone through of being constantly and constantly the subject of rumors. But, yeah. Look, all I know for sure is that LVMH really values him. so I could see the are you getting a lot of people who know him really want him to do Burberry and so I get a lot of like let's let's push this forward and my feeling from everything I've I've heard is that I don't think there's going to be a change at Burberry anytime soon and if there is it's not because they want to push it so I don't know if that's I don't I don't know if there's any truth to that or if there's anything there.

17:44But the thing I would say is LVMH really values him. So I could see them backing his own brand. I think we're going to start to see that more in the way that they've done with Phoebe Philo. And maybe in some cases, they have the money. They can give people 25 million bucks to start something. Who wouldn't love to see Kim Jones's label back. Like I think a lot of people would. And so while it's not going to be a Chris Van Ash situation where they keep just like putting him somewhere else until he, until he's finally gone, poor, lovely man. Um, but, um, so I, I think all I will say is I know they value him and whatever is going to happen, they're going to make this as good for him as they possibly can, because whatever you want to say about that company, when they have someone who's made them a lot of money, which Kim Jones has.

18:39And yes, you're right. I don't think the stuff is selling now, but Maria Grazios isn't selling now. And it used to sell like crazy. I remember I went to the LA show that he did with ERL. Did you come for that? Yeah, I was out there. Funny show, but I interviewed him before. First of all, he's a great product designer, but also there were like, there are a lot of guys who wear those bar jackets not in America like I think the other thing we forget is that like a lot of the way American men in particular but also women dress like American women don't wear Louis Vuitton fashion and they sell billions of dollars worth of those clothes just not in America like in a lot in Asia or in in South America or whatever so it's like something to remember, but I'm glad for him that, that it was a great show.

19:28And it kind of shows like how talented he is because it's easy to forget that with all the collaborations and the focus on product, product, product. Yeah. That, that was my, that was how I felt walking away. And, and, you know, I mean, I think we, whatever happens from here, you know, in, in, in contrary to what, to what I said, you know, a couple of minutes ago, you know, when you start to look back on those Dior shows, you know, setting aside perhaps the collaboration stuff, which, you know, really was probably never for me, but that, that his ability to, to handle and to, to direct clothing, um, is really impressive.

20:06I mean, it just really is. That's all I can kind of say. And, and, you know, I mean, this being kind of a really stark reminder of that, um, was, was very enjoyable. I really enjoyed sitting at that show and, and felt really, um, you know, he said after, like, it was very emotional. And I, I think, yeah, you, you probably actually earned to be able to say that. I think sometimes designers say that they're trying to say it was emotional, right? It was emotional, right? That it was emotional. But like, you know, this time I was kind of like, yeah, it was like, you, you, you did the thing. Um, it worked for me.

20:36Best of best of luck to him.

20:45so let's talk about veronique from air mets who's been there for 36 years and there were a lot of posts i noticed on social media this this time mentioning that she's been there for 36 years like sure she's been there i don't know why it was a thing but it did get me thinking like you've been going to her shows for what 15 years 10 years about 10 years so what do you think it well i i love her stuff i think it's it's really nicely done do you think they'll hire someone new soon or no no oh my god no hermes is so in the zone and she she i mean she know your consumer and and and she knows her consumer extremely well but then there's these moments in these shows and it's always been this way but i really for some reason this season they were really clear to me there's just these moments where it's like she still really tries something and you just see something and you're like that's a that's a cool idea like tucked in there at this brand that's just like making clothes for extremely wealthy people and you know could very easily rests on its laurels as many of those sorts of brands do.

22:01And I, like, there's these things in there that like could be, you know, that remind me of like Lucas Ossendravers, Drivers Lon Vaughn, or that remind me of Kiko in a way, or that, you know, there's just these flourishes that you're like, wow, this is like a real burst of creativity. And I love that stuff. So the thing that I find interesting about her is you never go to one of those shows and think, what am I going to write about this? Which is very difficult. I mean, maybe you do, but I haven't been to as many of them as you have. But I wonder if her skill is transferable to women's wear because you go to these shows and it I she she's had bad shows, of course.

22:56But generally, it doesn't feel like, oh, my God, we're in. She's been there since what's 36 years ago. She's been there since 1989. Is that possible? you're not like, oh, can we just get out of 1992 here? Like it feels if it doesn't feel like reinvented, it just feels like a progression. And it doesn't it feels like she still belongs there. I can't imagine. And anyone who says they were going to Karl Lagerfeld shows and thinking that at the end is lying. Like the reason you went to his shows at the end were because they were like fun productions. It wasn't because you were looking at the clothes like it.

23:41And with her, it's all about the clothes. And I just wonder if there's anyone who's equivalent to her in women's wear who's managed to keep maybe if you think of Phoebe Philo's career as one brand and just about her, maybe she's a good example of that because she keeps making things that feel like of this time, but are still her. And maybe it's like more of an extreme example, but I can't think of a women's wear designer who has that ability to progress, to be progressive without pissing people off or boring people or anything. That's a great point. I mean, I had not thought about it through that lens.

24:24Uh, I think that, yeah, that's, that's probably, that's probably true that's probably true because uh i mean there there's no sense of you go to those shows and you're you think this is rote it's going to be boring uh i mean i'm i'm not saying it's it's it's setting the world on fire but but there's always something within that that you're kind of like i keep using the word charmed maybe i'm just like that's just what i'm looking for these days i just want to be a little charmed by something and and and think something new and and uh you're like, yeah, that I liked it, you know, like, sure. Like I'm going to walk away and think about those hoods that she threw on these like two guys.

25:04And you're kind of like, where did that come from? And, and, and why do you think that that is, that that fits into the Hermes right now, but it works. And, and, you know, that, that's stuff that, yeah. I mean, there's plenty of brands at that age and there's plenty of designers that are, that have been working at a brand for much less time than she has that, you know, feel like completely wheel spinning and that's not what they're doing. And, um, she, I, I, I hope she's there for another 36 years. It's like, I, I, I don't think that it needs anything different than that. And I think it's the, like, I think it's great, you know, it just works.

25:44Yeah. Yeah. It says something about the culture of that company, which is for another podcast. So. So totally we're saving the best. I want to save the best for last. So let's get through a couple more. Let's talk about orally. You did a great piece about norm core is still around. It's just more expensive, which I really enjoyed. Let's just discuss orally. And should I just start wearing orally exclusively? I already I have a jacket, pants and a sweatshirt. If this is within your budgetary bounds, like it is anything within my budgetary balance, Jacob. sure like where where only that i think you could do so much worse than doing that um it's the colors for me like you know you walk away from those shows and it's really how he he mixes color in a way that is familiar enough that you could probably try it but interesting enough that you're not like oh i'm looking at you know theory or uniqlo and it's it's just good clothes.

26:46And, and, and I think that there, what he had in, this was a piece that I didn't write this season that I probably could have was there was just so many leather jackets. And, and, and I really wonder if that's an expression of how much companies are relying on high ticket items to, to kind of carry them through in a way. I mean, La Mer had about a zillion leather jackets. Yeah. But, but Orly like, you know, these leathers and they're just so refined and they're so, you know, a leather jacket is so hard because if you wear a leather jacket and it's wrong, it's just, you're just doing a thing. There's no way around that to make a leather jacket and have it be easy.

27:24It's just incredibly impressive. And that's maybe the measure of, of, you know, the truest skill in a way at this moment, like getting ease into a garment that hard, he, there's just ease throughout those clothes and I really love it. I would, I, as you know, own an orally. I know you do. And I would not own one if it, if he didn't make one. Like I'm not going to buy, maybe if I lived in New York, I would have somehow justified the Phoebe Peplum one because I think it's really good. The row one is too heavy and obviously too expensive, but the orally one, I wear it constantly. it's become part of my personality.

28:10And the thing that's interesting about his clothes, I think the color, you're exactly right. Like that is what informs the rest of what I do. He works with Charlotte Collette, who is an amazing stylist. And she also, I think, just influences a lot of what I wear because of the shoot she does and the designer she works with. I think you're totally right on the color. Like he just is right on the money. And you can look at those look books and be like, I'm going to buy some stuff from from this. The one thing about his clothes, and I'm curious from your perspective on the women's side, the fit is not super easy for a lot of women.

28:49Yeah. So so like I can't I wouldn't wear his knits for the most part because they're really clinky and I'm not like the proportions are complicated. So I just bought a pair of like bull check trousers that he did for men and women. So I'm going to see like if they don't, I didn't try them on. I'm going to, if, if they fit, they fit. If they don't, I'll send them back. But on the men's side, is there any question about the, because the fit is definitely like he's Japanese. Like it definitely feels more squared off. And so I think for Western women, that could be a challenge. Like I had a friend, I, I was in New York and was with a friend and she was like, it just doesn't fit me.

29:35And I was like, well, that's because you like, like the way Amelia Wick said stuff fits. It's not going to be like give you an hourglass figure on the men's side. Is there any concern about that or any struggle with the fit? Well, I'm short and broad, so it fits me relatively well. Uh, like, cause it is, it is quite boxy. Like I, I have a jacket that has this very nice kind of like swing to it because of the boxiness. Yeah, that's a great point. I don't think I've tried on enough of it to weigh in entirely. But that is certainly point taken and that is maybe worth investigating more in how it lands in stores.