Fashion’s Biggest Year Ever

29:17And she said it from from afar. And she said, yeah, it was really good. But like the Margiela show, I love him. I think he's hugely talented and super smart. I thought it was not good. And so I think there was just so much pressure. and why I like Chanel so much was that it was just like about pure emotion and not like make or break for this brand, I guess. I don't know what you all felt. I would agree about it didn't feel like there was that pressure there. It did feel like everyone just wanted him to succeed and everyone felt very happy and supportive. All the brand ambassadors, The room had good energy.

29:59It was less. I'm nervous. What are we going to see here? It's more like this is great. What are we going to see here? Yeah. To put it simply. Totally. Jacob, how are you feeling about it? I just, you know, I've not been to any of these shows yet. I think I think that there is it's just so I feel like I have the ability to kind of watch the reaction a little bit from. afar. And I think there's just something funny, very indicative of, I think, how the hive mind can really set in around a certain designer. I think we had that with Jonathan for a while, and then the hive mind turned a little bit on Jonathan already.

30:42And I think, Lauren, I just want to go back to your point of like, I believe that it's really going to work. Like, I think Dior is going to absolutely work. I think there's just this thing that's happened where he's not the shiny new object anymore he's not kind of the for lack of better term indie darling that he wasn't loewe and so um people are more it's more easy to lob criticism at him now i i think which i think is unfair to an extent um as for chanel it's like i just haven't i haven't seen that stuff up close but i think you know um looking at it online i i don't quite get it in the same way uh i think they're to me the collections thus far they there is a lot of artistry there's a lot of craft there's a lot of really beautiful stuff in there there really is but mixed in is a lot of product and and i think that there is a certain uh sense of denial that's happening amongst people being like he's the most creative guy ever and it's like well but you could also see within here that he has to appease a lot of different tastes, let's say a lot of tastes that might not be the greatest.

31:49There were things in that New York show in particular that I was kind of like, this is not cool. This doesn't have any finesse to it. This is just, for lack of a better term, not to just distill this guy's skills down to this, but for lack of a better term, merch. And that kind of goes to show you can't always control who's buying your stuff. And I think he has a consciousness of offering that to people. But I think that I don't like this narrative that it's like, whenever there's this narrative that's like, he's the greatest since sliced bread. I'm like, have we thought about that entirely? Like everyone just kind of gets really frothed in a lather about it.

32:27And I'm like, okay, sure. Like, but how many times have we done this to ourselves now? I don't know. I hate everything. Like I generally hate - That's not true at all. That's not - I hate most stuff. You don't hate everything. That's not true. That's not true. I hate most stuff. That's disingenuous. I have issues with most stuff. The thing I will say is I don't I think there's a lighter touch with the merch. I agree. I'm not saying look like what I like and what I don't like has nothing to do with it. It's just what I think. And and if I think there is some something I don't think he's saying anything big.

33:04I don't think he has some like big agenda. the reason this made me feel good was because he didn't have a big agenda that it was just about clothes and yes there is merch and there are good bags and there is good stuff and I also think I will say I wasn't at the show in in Paris I was only in and I love the show in Paris watching it online from the airport like trying to get home to my child but like it made me feel good and that That is something. Whereas a lot of these collections didn't make me feel good. I thought Celine made me feel good. I thought and I thought this made me feel good. Like there weren't that many collections a season that I was like, oh, this just feels good.

33:50And it doesn't have to be it doesn't have to be so complicated. Like it wasn't the the virginy stuff. If you want to talk about like it's just like that was just merch and it didn't look good and it didn't make people feel good. And so I think but the thing I will say about the the subway show, I thought, honestly. It did not photograph well. And if you had been there to see it, it did make a difference. Like there was tons of stuff in it I didn't like and there was tons of stuff I did. And I think the point being is like it this isn't life or death with Dior. It literally feels like life or death.

34:31And we're all like, oh, is this guy going to be OK? Is it going to be okay? Is it going to be okay? The reason I like this is because he's just making beautiful clothes and also nice bags and shoes and all that stuff. I don't think, I don't feel the pressure. And because of that, as someone that all I'm thinking about is like, are people going to buy this? And is this going to be a good example? I also thought from a trend perspective, and Becky, you can talk about this. And we should talk about Valentino too, even though it wasn't a debut. But like the low waist skirt, the Chanel jacket, like these are things people are going to they're never going to buy the$17 ,000 Chanel jacket.

35:11But like these are things this is going to kind of affect the way people dress, which is very rare today. Like I don't think that Michael Ryder is going to affect the way people dress in the same way because he is just reflecting how people are already dressing. but I think the low-waisted skirt, I think all that stuff, like that stuff is going to be at Zara. That's going to be influencing. And so I think the thing about Mattu that made me feel so good about it and so happy at the end of that month was like, this is just clothes. Don't take it so seriously. And you know what? This is also a huge company that doesn't need, it can go be down, the ready to wear could be down for a couple of years.

35:55It wouldn't even matter, but it won't be. But let me cut in because that's kind of, I just have to say, because you saying that really unlocked, I think maybe what I think, maybe why I have a dimmer view, I think on it than most is like what you just said right there. This is a company that could take the risk, that could do something quite big. And I felt like that New York show in particular brought into focus for me. You get the, it felt so paint by numbers. Oh, a subway stop. Oh, and I love New York shirt. Oh, like people just going about their day. Oh, we're going to get the SNL cast. We're going to get Sofia Coppola and her daughter.

36:30It just felt so like what you would get if you literally mad-libbed or not mad-libbed. If you kind of like chat GPT'd, frankly, to use a cliche term right now, if you chat GPT'd fashion show in New York by a Parisian brand, that was something out of a movie. And I think that you should reach higher. And to what you said, maybe say a little bit more. Like that's where I was just kind of left cold where I'm like, what is really being said here? Because this is not a collision about daily life in New York. This is not, I'm sorry. Chanel, Chanel client. We've talked about the client a lot. I don't care.

37:04The subway. And I felt like there was something quite crash about that. If I'm being really candid and I, and I just didn't enjoy that. Who cares? Because that is germane because, because this is, if you come here and you dip in and you dip out like that in a fabricated setting, You are, frankly, that's tourism. That's not being, it's a form of gawking that isn't really commenting upon this city. It's commenting upon a very retrograde vision of this city. If you want to say something cool, say something cool about what this city is right now. And I just felt like that was not very on the pulse.

37:35It just wasn't. It could have gone so much further. But let's remember that Chanel is a kitschy brand and it always has been. But think about what Carl did in terms of spectacle. That was something that was much more. Carl had the last show I went to in New York with Carl was at the Met and it was about mummies in the Egyptian room like this. It's that's fine. I think. Why are we class? But but why are we? Why are we classifying then? Like, I think that the rosy, the very like like a wuga eyes that people have over this right now. You just don't like it because everybody likes it. No, I agree.

38:13We actually have both of you in a weird way here, because I agree you have the ability. You should reach a little higher. This is your chance. But also, Matthew understood the assignment. You know, like this is the brand. This is what they do. And yeah, I don't. Yeah, the French just don't have the same sense of irony as New Yorkers. And that is a thing like that. The French, that is part of it, too. look like do i think that they would have been better doing it somewhere else that the lighting was better and that tom ford had not shown like five years ago and that cortez had not had a like a random london streetwear brand had not had a pop-up where i love la had not just shot like come on this is like this is not an inaccessible thing it just was like people were so like oh my god it's in the subway about it and it's like come on no no one cared about that how easy of marks are we?

39:08Like, how easy is this? Like, come on, Becky, you, you talk a little more because we should move on to something else, but I just, you need to chill out, Jacob. It's not a big deal. And also it's also, that's the laziest defense in the world. Like, like you guys ride for this. You're talking about buying it and you're telling me to chill out. Like I'm trying to puncture the balloon a little bit here. That's all I'm saying. All I'm saying is three years from now, you're going to look back on this stuff and be like, OK, yeah, it was actually the thing that that like people connected with. I think that I just think like when we look back in, it reminds me honestly of the Phoebe stuff when it first launched.

39:51I was like, this isn't enough. And now three years later, it's like influenced so much stuff. I just think, you know, I think in that sense, I was sort of going to say, like, I don't think he's ever going to be as directional as someone like Phoebe. I think he understands the assignment of a humongous brand like Chanel. And there's got to be kitchen. There's got to be things for she-she people to buy. But actually, in terms of what I think has been so amazing this year, in terms of really how is it we're going to dress is Phoebe. And to an extent, Valentino, which when I go back and look at the shows, was one of my favorite shows in retrospect, which is kind of crazy.

40:31But like I, yeah, I think his job is spectacle, like Matthew, in a way, and he is delivering it. Because one of my favorite Carl quotes that Minel always used to say to me, actually, was that if you want money to walk in the front door, you have to throw it out the window or something like that. So he is delivering that and creating that sort of hysteria that exists online, even if it's just us discussing whether the subway was fun or stupid. Like he is creating that. And I think that's the job. But oh, go ahead. No, I think you're I think you're right. And it's a good point. But we we'll never be able to buy into any of that anyway, in a way where I'm like, well, we can't buy the Gucci furry loafers anymore or whatever.

41:23Yeah. Like in terms of affecting how we're going to dress like Phoebe is back with a vengeance. Yes. So let's talk Phoebe and Valentino and agree to disagree on on the I my thing is it's not even the spectacle. It's just the like dopamine hit of feeling good because there isn't a lot of stuff that makes you feel good. And that those collections have made people feel good. And it's like a brain massage. It's all that stuff. I also just think he is not under, you can tell he's not under tremendous amount of pressure. He's under pressure, but in a different way. And I, I don't think that this should be, I just don't think that this needs to be a big, are you so mad?

42:08It's a brain massage that lulled everyone to not thinking critically about any of it. I mean, there was no, there was, there was not a single dissent about this thing that was, I'm sorry, I will cease, but I've just, I mean, that's, it's, it's not, it's not for me. Kathy Lorenz said that it didn't work, but she still liked it. Which was, I was like, that's the meanest thing she's ever said about a Belgian. What's up? It's Draymond Green. I'm back for my 14th NBA season and my podcast, The Draymond Green Show, is back too. This season, I'm breaking down games, reacting to the biggest NBA stories, and sitting down with teammates, rivals, and culture shapers.

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43:09Phoebe and Valentino. I agree with you, Becky. First of all, the one note I will make is that I did buy a Chanel jacket this fall, obviously secondhand for the first time because I was like, ooh. So I do think it's affecting. But let's talk about the Phoebe effect and the Valentino because I was at that Valentino show, So and I I would say there was it wasn't a great feeling in that room. And looking back, it does it has had a big effect and I think was a great collection. And and is honestly as someone who I like appreciate Alessandro, but don't subscribe to that personally. I feel like it's affected the way I'm I'm dressing.

43:51And that's that means a lot, whereas the Gucci never did. So let's talk Valentino and Phoebe and why those were important brands this year. But Becky, maybe you can start. Well, I just sort of think kind of going back to that, we both bought Chanel jackets this fall. I think this goes into the idea that vintage is really the real star designer of this this year. Like vintage anything. Vintage is what's cool when vintage is what feels fresh is what you feel good in. It's what makes you feel unique. while there's just so much stuff and it's also expensive. So my vintage Chanel jacket was not cheap, but it's, it feels Matthew coated.

44:33Um, and it feels how we all want to dress based on these shows. And I think Valentino did the same thing where a lot of the women who are going to pay Valentino prices, they are not going to shop vintage. Um, so it's a way to sort of buy into this sort of idea of clothes feeling nostalgic. And he just did it in a way that felt very tasteful. And you can see what a good designer he is in that there's already really good red carpet out of it. There's amazing jeans with a perfect jacket, which you and I were talking about, the sort of return to just sexiness of having a pair of jeans that makes you feel amazing with a great statement jacket is sort of where we're going in terms of getting dressed.

45:17and he just had all of those elements and it to me it was sort of that same he felt that pressure but he understood the assignment that he really needed to pare back and focus on beautiful clothes and I don't know why it's registering so late but this week going back through all the shows it just felt really special to me that wasn't very well articulated no I I agree and I think We went to Marissa Meltzer's party together a couple weeks ago, and we both wore jackets. And I wore pants, but it was still the jacket felt very Valentino jacket. And it was vintage. It was$65, like a fake Mew Glare or something from the 80s, whatever.

46:01But, I mean, that is a challenge for that brand, is that the stuff that he's making, he's making the perfect version of it. But it's different from when he launched Gucci, which was like the sort of fancy dress. Yeah. Trunk. Do you think like it's just sort of indicative of all of these designers can just do what these designers do? I think that I think a big issue is that people weren't shopping secondhand like they are now. Yes. Ten years ago. And so now it's not weird to shop secondhand like people buy Valentino secondhand. couture clients buy tons of secondhand way more than they were. And whether or not the market is as big as people are saying, someone asked me that question recently.

46:50But I think the fashion enthusiast is just shopping it way more. And so the Valentino versus the Phoebe is a good thing, good thing to think about because the Valentino, there is a dress that Kirsten Dunst wore that was like a mix of polka dots and flowers, black, yellow, and white that I want to get for a wedding. Like I'm going to try to find it somewhere and get it on sale in, cause it's perfect. But I would say, and that matters because the fit is better than, than the original. And you could find an eighties dress like that, but it won't be as, as perfect fitting. But I think generally like, again, who has$6 ,000 for, I'm sure that dress is at least six, probably eight.

47:31Minimum. Yeah. So, so I think that that has been the challenge with that brand and they haven't had a sort of breakout accessory to supplant it. And, and we'll see. I hope that I hope, but I think it was sneakily one of the best collections of the season. And also the other thing was that the models were really thin. And so it did. And usually I don't care about stuff like that. I'm sorry. But it really was like in person, like a little weird. They just like you were just like, OK, these people. I don't know how a celebrity is going to put this dress on. And Dakota Johnson wore one of the dresses.

48:14She looked amazing. But like, I wonder if they I don't it. She's extremely thin. But like these models were like freaky thin. Yeah. But I think like when you think about the Phoebe and why it has clicked so much and look like we're not going to know if it actually worked for a while because the way that the British registrar works in terms of filing your revenue at the beginning of next year, the Phoebe numbers from 2024 will be available. so it won't be till 2027 that we'll have the 2025 number so we won't know how big the business became in the last year but i think like i think it's still a mess because it's a small business run by people who have never run a business before but i think it has clicked with customers and the big reason is because it looks new and she just knows how to make people look modern and especially in Europe and New York and cities there's in the bag too.

49:14Like I I've seen that, that gig bag replace a lot of like the Margo things like that. She just knows how to make people look cool, but comfortable. And, and it's really the only brand that I bought anything from this year. I only bought a couple of things, but it was like my big purchases came from that. And it, it, I think it's like really nice to see someone. And she's remarkable in that she's had three times she's been able to make an impact. And I don't I can't think of another designer that way. But, Jacob, what have you thought about it? And who do you think on the menswear side is doing what they're doing?

49:52It's good. I don't have much to say about it because because I think, you know, much to my chagrin, Phoebe will never, I think, design men's. Though I do. A lot of men are wearing it, though. A lot of men are wearing it. I should say this is probably a piece that I should write at some point. Yeah. But it's I think it's I think I mean, every time I look at it, I'm like, oh, this is so appetizing. And I love how she's kind of doling it out. And yeah, I think on the men's side, that's such an interesting question, because it's you know, I think.

50:28Much the way I said mania, I guess mania, I think there is a mania for like very simple like I hate to be so base but like men right now feel like very simple consumers they feel like they want something that is um luxurious out of price uh but that is very unordained uh that is very unembellished and I think you know right now I I think a press is giving that to them I think uh there's a lot of early attention um but I don't think that there's anyone that has kind of the the balance of, um, the prosaic and the confrontational that Phoebe is able to offer. Um, uh, I think men just are different.

51:11I think, I, I, you know, I think men shop, shop differently and the men that want that are probably buying it from Phoebe, uh, in a certain way. But, um, yeah, I don't know. I, I, I feel like, and I don't want to take us on, on a tangent here, but I feel like men's is, is in a quite stagnant, um, like this is just, is just a stagnant moment. I think, you know, that's probably why I was so excited or was energized, I guess, by the Daria Vitale Versace show, because that had kind of the things that I think are really lacking in men's designer right now, in particular, that had color and texture and challenging proportions.

51:50And it had, I think, a lot of pattern, which is something that we just don't see much of right now. And it had verve. And I think right now, that's pretty absolutely in a lot of ways, in particular those kind of lurid colors and I think those patterns that are meant to challenge. And I think that there is a shopper for that somewhere, but I think that right now you go into a store and things might be the best quality ever. They might feel so luxurious. They might make you look really cool in a kind of contemporary dune kind of way, but they're not very, they're not, they're not, not drab. I mean, drab is kind of the mode right now.

52:33And, and, and I, I think that I'm waiting on, you know, I, I'm really, I'm, I'm really intrigued by what Dries is, is going to continue to build, you know, how that's going to continue to build as, as a business under him. And, and I, I, that is, I missed the last round of shows cause I was on leave. And so, you know, I'm looking forward to January and kind of that's a show that I have circled because I think you can always kind of get that spirit at a Dries show that I think right now I can't count on it being at every show that I go to. Jacob, I want to know what's the men's pants shape right now?

53:15I still I still think that on the fashion side, I think that it is still a wider pan. I don't think it's as large as it once was. I think what I think, I mean, maybe I'm speaking from, from a personal bias. I think we are seeing a real straight leg gene kind of moment coming back. And I, I, I, I'm trying to figure out if that is a leading indicator that all pants are going to get slimmer, but I think, you know, we're in a classic moment. We just, we just are. And people like that 501 plus, let's say something a little wider than a 501 that feels like where people have landed right now. Um, but I think dress trousers are kind of absent from, you know, it's not like that's where, you know, I feel like we went through this moment of, Oh, the double plead is so mass that it's hit Todd Snyder and it's going to hit Jake.

54:04Like that's not, that's not, that doesn't feel like what the narrative is right now, at least from, from what I'm seeing and what I speak with folks um uh i don't i don't have a clear answer but i also think that this gimmick this kind of demna era i hate to say gimmick but this demna era stance this demna era mode of just super super giant pants like that's gone like that that feels very passe already you know there are people that will tell you that the the eddie boy is is what's going to come next and that people are just going to try to find as much Dior Homme as they possibly can. I don't quite think that that's where we're going, but someone like Aaron Esch out of the UK, that feels like contemporary Eddie to me in a certain way.

54:48And in his absence, people will look for that, I think. It does feel like men's fashion is still in the oatmeal face, whereas women's is out of it. Yeah, and I think that men's something's going to have to rest men's out of this. I think, you know, I give Jonah a lot of credit. I really do. And I think Jonah dictated in a lot of ways kind of what this palette at least looks like. Who's Jonah? Who's Jonah? There are a lot of guys out there. There are a lot of guys out there that are dressing, I think, in what I would call the Blackburn spy plane mode. I think Jonah does deserve credit there. I think that we are going to get rested out of this very soon.

55:39I think someone will come around and there will be an idea. Part of the problem right now, and then I will finish ranting, part of the problem is that there's a lot of gawking at celebrity that's happening right now, and there's not a lot of trickle down. In culture broadly, there's just not anything to grab onto and say, I want to look like that. And it's going to shoot downward. And I know that you might say, well, men don't operate that way or men haven't operated that way. It's like it wasn't that that long ago that people genuinely, and now his name is hard to mention, but people genuinely thought Shia LaBeouf was super cool and wanted to dress like him.

56:16Like that was a real thing. That really happened. I wrote about that at the Wall Street Journal. No, no, no. That genuinely happened. Like, I think that that kind of effect of, I think Kanye still continues to be like the last one that really did have that profound of a cloning effect. But right now, it's like, Timothee Chalamet looks very cool. It's really, it's happening. Good on him. He's got a lot of eyeballs. No one is dressing. Like, no one is taking from that. That's a good point. But it's cool to look at. I think that's over. It's just over. Like the way that we consume culture is so fragmented.

56:55I don't think that that's going to exist anymore. And it's going to take a lot longer for something like a narrow leg to come, quote unquote, back because of the fact that, like, you can do whatever you want. And there are all these little avenues that you can you can go down. The trickle down is much rarer these days. Or it comes and goes incredibly fast. It's kind of like it comes and then we're over it. Yeah. But my one counterpoint to that, though, is that this was a year in which someone like Jacob Elordi, someone like Austin Butler, they were dressing in a way that to me was kind of like the styled version of no makeup makeup.

57:32It's like they were styled to look like they were not styled. And I think that that had a real – guys then were looking at that and saying, hey, I kind of want to look like that. I wrote about this. We called it the James Clean effect. There's like a trickle down from those guys to the TikTok guys, and then it disseminated. The problem with that is that that look in and of itself is pretty flat. Like, I hate to say it like that, but it's not challenging. It's not going to make you look like a guy that cares about fashion. That's the kind of missing component is that you need someone or something has to happen that it's appropriate, I guess, let's say, to look like you care about clothes again.

58:10And we're just not we're not there on men. We're not there yet. Yeah, well, it's like kind of like men's is still in the quiet luxury thing, whereas women's has has pushed out of it. Let's talk about a couple of the big news stories of the year. You mentioned the Dario thing. Obviously, he got this job at Versace. It's kind of a weird situation where he left Miu Miu and everyone knew that the product was annoyed with him because of this. he gets this job they do this weird thing where they say that he's not going to do a runway show they're going to do a presentation and then we all go it's a runway show everyone really liked it he was fabulous people were really excited the sales were up the private client sales were up I heard like sales in the U.S.

58:57were up a lot a lot double digits for sure Prada Group acquires Versace two days later they fire him because this was the plan all along and I confirmed this on both sides that they were said they told him that they were going to fire him if he took this job because they already had someone in mind and they did I'm curious what you all think is going to happen to him and do you think the thing that I look upon reflection looking back like I love the collection But there is a point of would the Versace customer cannibalize this new Miu Miu customer that they have acquired over the last where the sales doubled many years over the last couple of years because he was such a big part of Miu Miu's recent success.

59:45And so like the first point is, do you think they made the right decision firing him? And the second point is, do you where do you think he's going to go? Because I do think he's going to get another job. well I had said to you Lauren like my husband had made this I was trying to explain this to my husband and he gave me a good sports analogy of it of now he was at the top of his game and it's a free agent and so we'll end up making so much more money um in the way that athletes do this supposedly I know nothing about sports but um so it's I loved this collection so much and I was so sad at this news.

1:00:25But now I do think it's like we have this exciting opportunity where he can go improve himself. And now we know after seeing how amazing Mew Mew looked the last few years, seeing this debut, like he's an amazing designer. And so I'm very excited to see where he will go and where he will land. And he will get scooped up because I mean, he's proven he can do it. Yeah, I think it's like kind of, you know, I like having a little bit of drama in the industry. So like, obviously I feel bad for him, but like, this is, this is the fashion industry at the fashion industry's biggest spielkis. I'm not going to comment.

1:01:05I mean, I don't know if time will tell if this was a savvy move or not. I've already gotten myself in enough trouble on this episode. I'm not going to like, like make a, make a critical judgment on that. I think like there is something here that like now this collection feels like it's encased in ember and that it will forever be like looked back on as like, look at how amazing this was. And we'll have an even higher, I think, appraisal of it in the next several years. That's kind of my feeling is that for him, it really is probably a burnishing of his reputation and he was there for a blip. But I think it made me think of, I was trying to think of comparisons and I thought of two things.

1:01:45And it made me think of, this is a comparison for like maybe 10 listeners and one of them being maybe Tim Blanks if he listens to this. But like, it kind of reminded me a little bit of Umit Binan who like had this like amazing moment at Trisardi. Like he had his own brand. He had this amazing moment at Trisardi. And then he was, it was the, the reporting, you know, came out later. Like he had an amazing Twitter rant that he, when he got let go for the company and he now has his own brand. I always go see it in Milan. It's really beautiful, beautiful stuff. He's kind of operating as a male Phoebe on a very, very, very minor scale, I think.

1:02:22Very luxurious, a little directional. He's such a talented, amazing designer, but he was just a huge personality for this time in a way that Daria was not. I don't want to make that comparison, but it was this thing where it's like, wow, how amazing were those Trissardi shows? Or how amazing was his own brand? And then it kind of disappeared. The other thing I thought of in this capacity was this does have shades of the Simone Belotti at Bally, where it's like there kind of was this groundswell phenomenon, this grassroots, hey, this guy's really good. This is really good. And it worked out for Simone.

1:02:55He got plucked and is now with Jill Sonder. And we have not mentioned him yet in this episode. We're an hour, two minutes in, which is amazing that we've not mentioned him because we are three of his biggest fans, I think. We are his number one fans and we are the reason he got that Jill Sander job. I would never say that ever. No, it was the project. It was the project, I'm sure. That's what Renzo Rosso said. But to what you said, Lauren, I don't see. The Mew Mew thing, I understand maybe that is the rationale. I don't see that as a cannibalization. I felt like Versace was going to find its own different kind of client under this Dario look.

1:03:36I don't think it was going to end up being what the Mew Mew consumer is. I went to Art Basel a couple of weeks ago and I, that is where all the Mew Mew is guys. Surprise. It's all on these like very, very rich people that just want to have a shirt that has a Mew Mew logo on it and they love it. And it was, it was shocking to me how much Mew Mew I saw down there. And it wasn't what's kind of, I hate to put it in these terms, but what grabbed me about that was that it didn't feel cool. It didn't feel like it was on someone that was super savvy in a way. It felt like it was on someone that missed Logomania a little bit because they had the little logo there and you knew what it was.

1:04:20And it felt like that was the itch that it was scratching. but I will forever mourn that this Versace collection isn't gonna be out there for people to kind of experiment with because I thought it was really cool and challenging and I was really keen to see okay what kind of client is this going to grab because clearly I think there's someone in this world that has been missing this kind of deco, vibrant, Dick Tracy spirit. And I think that fashion has ignored that kind of color conscious look at me shopper. And they were being served to with this. And we'll see. He will get another job. I don't know if he'll get paid like crazy, crazy money.

1:05:02I just think the landscape isn't maybe suited for that right now. But I'm sure he'll get another job. I do think it's interesting, though, that you said Miu Miu is all over Miami. Because as much as I don't think it was a strategic firing in that sense that, Lauren, and you're saying, I do think then that is case for cannibalizing Versace because Versace is Miami. I didn't say it was a strategic firing because they thought it was going to cannibalize. I just thought in the end, like, oh, that actually, like a Peter Muglier makes more sense from a like brand portfolio perspective of like, what kind of person do you want to bring in commercial wise?

1:05:43Sure, sure. The reason, like I did a lot of reporting on this and I was just going to say from my perspective, like, yes, this was a drama, but the Prada group handled this incredibly well. And I think Dario Vitale handled it incredibly well. Like he's still on social media, like everyone involved, the Versace people. Why are you laughing at me? He's still on social media. Like they were going to like kill him? No. Why are you making fun of me, Jacob? This is rude. I do not make fun of you. The point being over there. Yeah. Yes. Yes. He is. He is posting through it. I agree. He is posting through it.

1:06:22And in a like, look, what I, what I want to say is that like literally everyone involved who has been able to speak to me has, and been incredibly like, this is what happened and we're not going to lie about it. Whereas I work with other groups that like, right. Act like nothing's happened. Maria Grazia is waiting for six months. They're begging her to stay at Fendi. Nothing's wrong. Nothing's wrong. Give me a fucking break. Just say what's wrong. And they did. They were very honest with all the reporters. And I just think it's like, this is why Mucha Prada is who she is. She's a class act. And whatever happened, they were pretty honest about it.

1:07:00And I think it was a drama, but it was fun because everybody was like, there wasn't this like stress behind it. So that is all from my perspective is like, if you want to talk about the inner workings of the industry, like this group has a lot of potential because they're not acting like freaks about little things. And, and they're, they just kind of laid it all out. And I thought that was really smart because it diffused it as well. No one is like, people are talking about it, but no one's like worried about it. If that makes sense. This is to that point a little bit. I'm not quite sure. I agree that it could have been stressful for no one.

1:07:41Like I'm sure there were some hard feelings somewhere. But this is definitely a scenario where I'm left excited for both what Versace will be. And I'm excited for whatever Dario does next. Like I think that there is a ability to hold both things in your head and be like, okay, we're going to see something new in two ways, hopefully going forward. And that's great. Okay. So, Jacob, you're wearing a Giorgio Armani T-shirt. so why don't we talk about Le Collezione is that how you would say let's discuss the passing of Mr. Armani he meant a lot to both of you yeah I mean you know he's he's one of the best what am I supposed to say he's one of the best to ever do it he probably had on the men's side of things he's probably had the most impact in terms of how men have dressed over his design career.

1:08:40I think he had an ability to shape how the world dressed, how the world of men dressed, not just for his own consumers, but for how men took from that subconsciously and how other brands stole from him and how he dictated, I think, a certain look. And I think that he operated his business the right way in a lot of ways. I think he, as a corporate leader, he was very commendable in a lot of ways. And I think also just his savvy about making a man look better. I mean, he was just, that is preternatural. You're born with that. And he was able to communicate that through his clothes. I think that there is something to be said for both in the years leading up to him passing and it continues.

1:09:31Like everybody that I know is buying as much old Armani as they can all the time. They're constantly rediscovering different periods of his, different things he made. I think that he, it continues to be, and I think that that just speaks to how, what he made, what that brand was able to make both Giorgio and Emporio. Like what those brands were able to do is, is offer something that was a little bit more challenging a little bit gonna make you look better a little like there that little bit that little extra layer is what he was a master of and and uh i will i mean certainly i think i've i've been doing this for over a decade now so i've i went to over what i don't know i don't know how many are giorgio shows but it was you know the waning years of his career but you'd still go to a show sometimes and you would be like wow that's how everyone should dress you'd leave and you'd kind of be like, that actually is like, we'd all be better if everyone just dressed like that.

1:10:33It was theatrical and at times a little camp. But it was, it was, there was no one like that to me. Like Milan Fashion Week now feels like such a fading star. And the fact that Giorgio could still articulate something at those shows that felt, Giorgio and his team, I should say, could still articulate something at those shows that felt like a clear follow me kind of message that's that was amazing i mean that it was just amazing i do think it's interesting i mean i think he is the case study in staying true to yourself throughout your branding you know throughout your time throughout your building of your company so i i think it's a little bit different for men and women in terms of relating to georgia armani clothes because even I buy Armani men's clothes.

1:11:28Absolutely. Yeah. I think it's really he's he's a fascinating, fascinating brand builder and so admirable in that and being able to stick to your vision and what you believe throughout all of these decades. Because I wrote actually is probably two years ago. I wrote a newsletter about this saying it's an Armani moment again and sort of how all these people are rediscovering Armani because Armani hasn't changed. The styles continue to change and come back and circle back. And it still is the best of the best. And he could stay tunnel vision in the fashion system, which is rare and difficult. And I think that is what's so admirable about the Armani brand.

1:12:10And obviously that was a huge loss. And I'll be very curious to see what happens. Yes. Without its leader. Yeah. I think it's just going to be one of their partners is going to buy it. It's not going to be LVMH. It's going to be L 'Oreal or Essilor Luxottica or a combo of the two. What is so funny, Jacob? Nothing. Nothing. Anyway. Nothing. I bear my soul. I cut myself open talking about how much it meant to me. And you're like, they will be purchased by the corporate partners. This is my job. Like, I'm sorry. This is such a split of our jobs. It's really incredible. What I will tell you both as someone who look hugely admire, own a ton of Armani myself, have been buying it for the last probably, I don't know, seven years or something.

1:13:09I was not buying it 20 years ago, but have been buying it more. Look, I think Ralph Lauren versus Armani, I write about them in conversation with each other a lot because I think Ralph Lauren had the ability to look outside himself a little bit. You might not believe it, but you can see how that brand has been managed. I think that brand has been managed better than Armani. I think the reason Armani is so pure and still has a lot of potential is because he was so steadfast. But because he was so steadfast and so provincial in the way he operated, there's a lot of inefficiency in that business.

1:13:54And also there are fewer people who are interested in Armani than would be if he had managed it in a more modern way. Like the big sort of thing that happened in fashion in the last 15 years is it went from being a family of family run businesses to corporate global entities that are still some family run. But they have they have fiduciary expectations, things like that, because Armani was private. Look, like it does feel very pure and it feels like there's a lot of potential. I by no means think that Mary-Kate and Ashley Olsen should suddenly design Armani and make it really modern. I don't want that.

1:14:41But I do think that there is a lot of inefficiency within the company that probably is not going to be fixed because of the way he set it up. whereas if it was set up where someone else could buy it, they could go in and really reorganize. I know there are a lot of people at Armani who want to do that and are excited because it's up double digits in the U.S. this year. There's a lot of potential. But the reality of the matter is, this is a business that is mostly based on probably Emporio off-price Armani denim being sold at a weird place. So I'm just saying from my perspective, like I'm glad that it was organized the way it was because it is pure and there is something to move on from now.

1:15:28But what happens now is it's either going to dwindle and become a Missoni or an Etro or it will it will. But like the business of selling clothes doesn't really exist anymore. And so they need to reorganize so that you can still make nice clothes and let people enjoy them. Is it that it doesn't exist anymore at that scale? Like, yeah, look, like I just think it does exist. obviously if you talk to Louis Vuitton they say they sell like a gazillion dollars worth of sure not what I'm women's ready to wear but but um yes I mean I think the the point being that like that structure is just really heavy with off price and if you look at Brunella Cuccinelli that's probably like a better organized and obviously he owes everything to Armani but But that's a better organized example of like how to make a clothing business.

1:16:26They rely heavily on off price like this. And so I just think to me, when I look at Armani and I look at Ralph and like the cultural impact that Ralph has had. And part of that is because it's a lifestyle brand versus a clothing brand. But I do think Armani has the potential to have that kind of impact or had that potential. And because of the way it was managed, never got so far. So I'm interested to see who Leo and Sylvia decide on because it's really their decision. They've brought in a lot of really interesting people to the board. Marco Bazzari, the former CEO of Gucci, who really knows how to scale a business.

1:17:10but to me it it was this this year for me the Armani versus the Ralph Lauren of like the last two independents figuring out how to live in this modern world where where this is sort of fashion has just become this this conveyor belt is was a really interesting story to me but yeah I mean, I appreciate it. And I agree that you go to those shows, Jacob, and you're like, okay, these are just great clothes. Why can't other people do this? And there will never be anyone else like that for sure who just doesn't care what anyone else thinks.

1:17:57The celebrity piece of it, we didn't talk about Kendrick Lamar at the Super Bowl and the boot cuts. We didn't talk about Taylor Swift and Travis. Do we want to just talk quickly about the effects celebrity has? Because fashion brands are relying more and more on celebrity for their marketing and to get to people. I've kind of alluded to this a little bit. I feel like celebrity fashion is in its imperial moment where it's like, we exist here and it has nothing to do with how you all dress down here. I think Kendrick, it was an interesting moment at the Super Bowl with the bootcut jeans because it felt so...

1:18:45It's like, here you are wearing fashion in front of the masses kind of moment. And, and it was, but it wasn't crazy in a couture costume theatrical way. It was like a legible fashion trend that we all had some relationship with, but we knew was pushing the envelope a little bit. I find it funny looking back. I wrote about those jeans. A lot of people I could tell you wanted to read about those jeans. I think that they were women's Celine jeans. This is the second time we've, I've mentioned a client of Taylor McNeil, who was probably, I think at this point, like top five most important people in fashion right now.

1:19:23Like I have to give it up to her. Like she is constantly creating part of the conversation we're having. But the funny thing about the Kendrick moment to me is like that, that, that coincides like with basically since that point, he's, this is maybe for a culture podcast, but he performs not like us. That's the biggest rap song of all time, seemingly. and then rap is now quote unquote over no one rap has never been less culturally important uh since kind of i think it's creation um it feels way harder to break through uh to get a song to break through to get a new artist to break through there's no one that is like emerged as i'm saying this though i'm not realizing i'm wrong because i'm gonna bring up someone who I don't even know if either of you know who this is, but like SD kid, uh, is, is I think as we're talking, like the 10th most listened to person on Spotify, like this, I think there's something happening in the UK that is not happening in American hip hop right now.

1:20:28Um, but you know, the boot cup moment, it's like that to me just exemplifies like people are gawking at that. They're really talking about it, but that didn't cause a surge in bootcut jean sales. Whether or not bootcut jeans were coming back, it wasn't like Kendrick had a hand in making that happen or not happen. It just existed in its own little bubble. And I feel like that's instructive because that wasn't a, again, that wasn't a red carpet kind of Ariana Grande, Cedillo Erivo crazy costume for Wicked moment. That was just like normal clothes, quote unquote. And even that didn't seem to have much of an impact on how people actually dress.

1:21:08I just, as I said, I think celebrities right now, the way they dress just doesn't have much trickle-down effect. And I think that that is going to become a problem, Lauren, frankly, for these brands where no matter how much you stan a musician or how into an actor you are, if you don't feel some crossover connection to like, they're doing this and I want to do that. It's like, what does that matter then for these brands to have these endorsers? I don't know, but I think actually the biggest SEO celebrity moments were like the more non-fashion moments. I mean, every time I open my computer, I have 10 emails about Jennifer Lawrence left her house.

1:21:52And then I'm like, oh, she's in just like baggy jeans. And then it's all about Zoe Kravitz and Harry Styles and head to toe the row that looks like basics. So I don't know. It's also I think that's really resonating. And then, of course, there's Taylor Swift with God knows what she wears, but, you know, it's quote unquote relatable. So I don't know. It's just not very inspiring, I guess. But are they making like Taylor Swift, for example, it's like, is that even though she's the biggest pop star in the world, is she making trends happen? Is she changing how people dress? Like, no, no, not at all.

1:22:29That's what's interesting. Same with Jennifer Lawrence. I'm like, I don't see what's happening, but sure. I could see, I mean, I think Jennifer Lawrence, maybe to, you guys would know better than me, but maybe to a certain consumer, I could see that. It's Jennifer Lawrence, but Jennifer Lawrence literally has zero interest in fashion or personal style. She would admit it. Like, she doesn't care about fashion at all, which is an interesting, and maybe that is why people are interested in it. I think the Zoe Kravitz and Harry Styles is like, that's going to be on mood boards 20 years from now. Like, she wore a purple scarf.

1:23:01Oh, I hope not. For sure it will. It will be. Like she wore a purple. I'm not really looking at him, to be honest, but like she wore a purple scarf the other day. I'm like, everyone's going to be looking at that. I think I talked about this with Jamie Mizrahi last week on last week's Tuesday episode. But I do think I think you're right, Becky, that that's the thing that is that is it's it's this idea of I don't know. there's there probably is like a essay about why but i i think you're both right in that the celebrity the brands this is what all the fashion brands do with everything like they went too hard on influencers they go too hard they pour money into stuff when they see a return and they've seen a good return on red carpet and so they've poured more and more and more money on into it and i think in some ways they need to pour more because they don't have enough money to make custom dresses for these people.

1:24:00Like the reason Louis Vuitton has done better in the recent years is because they make custom dresses for everybody now. And so they're not great, but like they're everywhere. They'll have 15 people for each red carpet. But I think it's too much. And you hear it like, I wrote a thing about campaigns a few months ago. It used to be that like a fragrance campaign didn't have celebrities. Now they all, every single campaign has celebrities. obviously there's going to be a bubble and it's going to burst and what comes next i don't know in this because we don't have monoculture anymore so it's like the last vestige of the monoculture is like having scarlett joansson do your fragrance ad or whatever but i think you know you might not pay attention to him but and i've talked about this with stella at work a little bit and like i think harry styles actually and what he the the the wave he is on now is a little instructive of like how our interaction with designer clothes has changed over the past, you know, for men has changed over the past decade.

1:25:00Like he basically to, to use a term you used earlier, Lauren, it's like, it's oatmeal. Like, it's very, like, it's not the Gucci progressive kind of gender bending. Like it's, and first of all, he mostly wore that in, in his like public appearances as opposed to him just walking down the street. but you can really feel him kind of dressing very ordinary in a certain way. Like it's the row and it's La Mer and I get that, but it's like, it does look incognito in a certain way. And I think that it was interesting though, to talk about both of them, you know, they, they were wearing, one of them was wearing like Levi's that they purchased from Serbara's.

1:25:41And I don't know if this was a direct correlation, but I went into Kathleen's or bar a store, like not long after, which is in Williamsburg here. And she just had racks after rack of like Levi's jeans. And she was basically like, we like can't keep these in stock. And I, it did make me think like, okay, that's what people like. And to Becky, you mentioned vintage early, like way, way earlier. Like, I think that really is to me, like kind of the story of this time is like for the actual consumer, like they're pretty conscious that like, Like if they want something, they can probably find it at secondhand, whether that's vintage or archive designer, however you want to articulate it.

1:26:20Like you both sang praises of, well, I'll say Lauren in particular sang the praises of the Chanel show. And it's like, but you bought the vintage Chanel jacket. And I think that that kind of that interaction with the brand, like that's where I'm like, these brands are going to have to, I think, wake up to that and find a way to get a piece of that pie or they are really going to miss out. And I think it'll be bad when they do for the consumer because those prices will certainly go up. But like this Armani shirt, like I talked diffusively about Armani. Like this is from Chad Senzel here in the city.

1:26:52Like this is not, I would never have bought this at the Armani store because it would have been so expensive. Like, but it's a piece of the brand. There's so much clothing out there. And I think people have woken up to that. And they are buying it not from the brand themselves. Well, this is why Phoebe works, because it doesn't look vintage. Correct. Like, it looks brand new. And this is a crisis of the industry that's been going on forever. They will never own that secondhand market. They can't. They've chosen not to. They could have 20 years ago or 15 years ago. And some of them, like Drees does a very nice archive section in some of its stores.

1:27:29Like, the smaller brands, maybe. But I think it's a huge crisis of the industry. And my thesis of what's going to happen to fashion is that it's not going to become small, but it's not going to keep growing the way it was. And it's going to become more of an enthusiast thing again. So, like, if you're really into clothes, there will be, I do think that this mid-price orally oppressy or whatever it's called. That's not mid-price, but yeah. That's not mid-price. But it is mid-price. No, no, no, no, no. No, oppressy is not mid-price. Like, I'm sorry. That's not mid-price. or orally orally maybe like but that's pushing it for men it is for for orally for women's it's like entry designer is what they call it so it's like compared to everything else it isn't as expensive and you could buy one thing that's all i'm saying i'm not saying i agree which is which is crazy where's the contemporary market contemporary as a term is just gone i think well this is i mean it's the carving out of the middle class.

1:28:32Like there isn't a middle class. It's all the same thing. It's like you either buy really cheap or really expensive. The point being that I just think like fashion is moving in a direction in the industry. It peaked. Like anyone who thinks like, sure, Louis Vuitton will be 24, it's 24 billion, it'll be 26 someday. It's not going to be 50 billion in three years like they maybe thought it was going to be. Like it's not going to get giant that fast. And I think that all of these executives just need to manage for that. Like you need to manage for that. And there is such a big opportunity at brands like Jill Sander or Margiela or whatever to make clothes that a person who make upper middle class person can buy a couple things each season.

1:29:19and that's where the big opportunity lies it's not in growing these mega brands anymore and that's the challenge for someone like jonathan anderson like yeah because here's i think i think about it like this like we're like you kind of talked about in your newsletter lauren like the client which i think is is a little different than like to me kind of the fashion obsessive fashion savvy consumer in a certain way like i try to parse those out pretty significantly and i feel like if you're in that like you care about this world, like you pay attention to this. We're kind of a little bit to speak kind of hyperbolically.

1:29:56We're a little bit at the point where you're kind of a mark. If you do buy something new, like you, like, I'm not saying that's true for every brand, but it is a little, like, it's gotta be really distinct or really specialized for you to not feel like, I know I bought, I know I bought this and it was$4 ,000. Like you, you, you try to apologize in a way otherwise. And I think like that is, that is going to be a really high hurdle because it's like, we're three people that work in this industry in different capacities, different zones. And we're all in agreement that that's kind of the dominant perspective right now.

1:30:31Like that's a bad thing for the, that's quite a bad thing for the industry. Like you should, you should want people like us to still want to go to a store and be like, okay, I don't feel, I feel like I'm participating in this. I'm not going to feel like I'm going to get called out by my friends for buying this. That is the consumer that burnishes your reputation out there in the world and makes you seem cool, frankly, and not just a brand for client. And that's where I think we're unfortunately heading a little bit. Or we're already there to a certain extent. We're already there. Yeah. It's a crisis and it comes down to the fact that people don't want, they only see what's right in front of them and they want to believe that it's just going to be okay.

1:31:11And it's not. it's definitely not like look these companies aren't going out of business but it's it's not it's not it's not a great thing I think it's in another way it's a really fun time to be a shopper because you can get whatever like whatever idea you have I'm the itch of of wanting cool fashion is being scratched again for me and that wasn't for a long time because I was kind of like I don't know what to wear. I don't know. Like there's nothing good for this wedding. That's not an issue anymore. Like you always find a cool, fun thing to wear. And if you're a fashion enthusiast, I agree.

1:31:50There's like a bifurcation between the luxury customer and the fashion enthusiast. And if you're into secondhand, it's a great time to be a fashion enthusiast. The luxury customer is the one that I think feels a little duped right now and won't come back. Do they feel duped or or are they just blindly buying like that's kind of not blindly buying you're not blindly that's the issue that's why i made the client the villain not because they'd done anything wrong because like for years you could just throw whatever at them they were like sure i'll buy this ugly crap and now they won't do that and like these brands don't know what to do they're just like what do we do but i will say like it was not that that long ago that i think that there was more of a crossover.

1:32:37And I think that there was a world in which you'd want, you'd go to the show or you'd look at the show and then you'd think, you know what, maybe I do want a piece of that. Like Becky, you mentioned like the Gucci fur loafers, like for better or for worse, like a ton of people that work in fashion got those shoes. Like they might, they might regret it now looking back, but like there was that pipeline. You would, you would get that excitement and then you'd get the high from buying the thing and you'd want to buy into it. And I think price is a big factor upon that. But I also just think the machinations of these brands, it has felt so transparent and it has felt so obvious.

1:33:14And to what I said earlier, you feel like a mark if you participate in that. You want to be savvy. You don't want to be the mark. And right now to be savvy is to buy the Chanel jacket secondhand, maybe as opposed to buying it from the brand. I mean, not to say, I think probably there were also price considerations there for both of you. But, but, you know, I, I, I think I, I, I just wonder if that, if we can go back the other way now, it's like, I don't think we can, I don't think we can. It's the same way. It's like, like people talk about like New York house price, like New York apartment prices.

1:33:49It's like, they're never going to magically go down. Like, I think it's the same thing with luxury pricing. We're never going to see the magical day in which a loafer is$700 dollars again that's not happening that was the peak the intersection of the enthusiast and the and the mega luxury customer that was the peak of this industry no the cultural peak peak you know ralph simmons saying fashion became pop i've quoted that so many times that was what happened fashion became pop and the monoculture died and it's over like it's over people that is that is the answer like no one is standing in line for these Gucci loafers again like it's just not happening and people need to move on and recalibrate their businesses and their lives to reflect that and some of them will and some of them won't but it's going to be an interesting few years from that perspective for sure I hope we get some really good collections out of it What are you guys excited about for 2024?

1:34:5226? 2026? 2024! 2026! Well, as I said earlier, I'm excited to see all of this stuff start coming into stores, actually. Yeah. Yeah, I agree. I think that will, like, make everybody chill out a little. Honestly, and excited for the slower news moment that you were talking about. Because we need a minute to figure out what's working. And agree. No, that's not going to happen. Obviously. It's going to be different, though. There's not going to be every week someone being announced. It's going to be different. There's going to be different. There's going to be more stuff like what happened with Dario.

1:35:33Because honestly, a lot of these collections didn't work. And we didn't go into what we didn't like. But I think we all feel the same about one in particular. but um oh yeah yeah yeah that was that was a bit of a letdown that was also heavy so heavy so not the moment we taught you the moment and then also yeah but um but the point being that like a lot of these aren't going to stick and there's also going to be a lot of executive changes and all that stuff so there will be a lot of news but um becky what did you want to say i just think we all need a minute to kind of settle down and figure out what style is like there has been so much hysteria and yeah sort of sit with all of this and figure out where everything lays and thinking about our own closets and thinking about where the industry is moving and just sort of sitting at all well i look forward to you guiding us in your newsletter called five things you should buy which is published on sub stack maybe 2026 needs to be the year i changed the name to the newsletter no it's no it's so good it's good and it it helps guide all of us and jacob we can find all of your great reports you're you know you name a lot of different trends including the potato shoes your greatest achievement i love that one um at the new york times and i hope to have you both on in 2026.

1:37:06This was so fun. Is there anything we didn't talk about that you or you want to yell yell at me about before we go? No, I just want to make the point that I think that for for as because I don't want to leave not that we're leaving on a sad note or a pessimistic note, but I think that there is still and I am really fascinated by this and I would love if any listeners are out there to send me things that I might that might fit this bill that, you know, I'm really fascinated by these brands that feel very small right now that feel like you can really get your arms around them. And, you know, some of it is, you know, I've interviewed a lot of tailors recently and I've, or I've interviewed people that just like have a side project off of working on their, working another job.

1:37:43And I think that that's where the excitement is going to come from in the next year or so is people are going to get, I think, into one, because it's specialized and two, it's hard to get, frankly, the stuff. Like I, I'm really interested in these businesses that just feel of a very modest scale and that people are content with that. And that's so not what fashion coverage often is, is things have to feel huge. But I really like, that is what I think the next year will be, at least in terms of my coverage in a lot of ways. But also I think for just like what people are going to want to talk about and be interested in is something that feels a little bit more intimate and harder to touch in a good way, frankly.

1:38:31I think when things are too big, we get a conversation like we've just had, which is that things don't always shake out great and it can feel like a down year. But I think let's all look forward to kind of the good and the small and the new. Yeah, I think like an Emily Dawn Long is a great example of that. Like I get so much pleasure out of buying stuff from her and it's like it's so fun it's never and there's less pressure now to like for her to like make it into to be the like go work at a european brand like there was 15 years ago when those kinds of brands popped up becky how are you feeling this made me think actually of tina laconen's podcast that you did with her oh yeah i would like in 2026 is you to do a follow-up with her because it was so great about the small brands.

1:39:22She's so good. Thank you both for being guests on Fashion People and being my friends and listening to me and putting up with my shit. I appreciate it. Happy New Year. Happy New Year. Fashion People is a presentation of Odyssey in partnership with Puck. This show was produced and edited by Molly Nugent. Special thanks to our executive producers, Puck co-founder John Kelly, Executive Editor Ben Landy and Director of Editorial Operations Gabi Grossman. An additional thanks to the team at Odyssey, J.D. Crowley, Jenna Weiss-Berman and Bob Tabador.

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