GQ’s Next Editor & A Vanity Fair Temp Check

29:35You think it's good enough. Is it? I'm Susie Welch. I host a podcast called Becoming You. People think, okay, an A plus life is not available to me, but there is a way. We are all in the process of becoming ourselves. Listen to Becoming You wherever you get your podcasts.

30:21in or sort of like in this like men's fashion world who we all know like the guy who who got high snobiety after Willa. Noah Johnson's. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. He's definitely going to go for it. I mean, I don't know this for sure. I am guessing, but I would assume yes. I think Noah is another person who should be considered for sure. I'm a huge fan of the dark horse, but I also think like Like it says something that the three of us who love to talk about this company, love to gossip about this company, love to report on this company, don't know anything about, you know, Adam, don't know much about him.

31:01Like, I think like he'll have to he should if this were sort of a traditional editor's race from 10, 15 years ago, his job right now would be building his profile, I think, with people like us and like the press. because this like these editorships used to be like battled out right and like the tabloids before like during during the hiring obligation process and I think we I think that's really been lost I mean you Lauren I think are the only one who really reports on like the horse race a little bit but I think like I remember even if you look at the times like there's always coverage of like who's gonna who's next in line who's in the succession for leadership here but like that that stopped happening at some point in the mainstream media press.

31:46Yeah. Like when Graydon, Michael, I feel like you did pieces around that when I was, I was looking back at them when the Vanity Fair thing happened and there was so much like, here are the seven people who could potentially get it. And, and now the, the world has just changed and there's so much bigger stuff to cover. It's kind of like how we don't publish exclusives on lookbooks anymore. I mean, so when I was researching my history of Condé Nast, which I believe is 40 % off at Amazon right now. Sorry, what's the title? I think it's called Empire of the Elite. Okay, okay. And, you know, the hardcover has a nice photo, some great photos of vintage photos of Anna and great and everyone.

32:31No, when I was researching the book, it was, you know, it was incredible because like when there were editor changes at Condé magazines, it would literally be like a front page story in the New York Times. Like they were such seismic events. I broke the news of Graydon Carter leaving Vanity Fair. This was back in 2017, which doesn't seem that long ago. But I mean, yeah, like and you're right, Lauren, we did do a whole horse race story like handicapping the field. You know, we were calling all around town. And like, you know, the fact that that just kind of doesn't happen anymore, like eight years later, is very much reflective of where the magazine world is in the zeitgeist and, you know, its influence.

33:10I do always count on Lachlan Cartwright to throw out a crazy idea, though. If anybody reads Breaker, I think he threw out Ben Smith. Oh, my God. He also said Noah Shackman. And one of my colleagues was like, do you think he met Noah Johnson? I was like, no. Yeah. And I mean, he threw out My Felony for Vanity Fair, which which did make more sense given the like Hollywood connection. But Ben Smith makes the who is my former boss makes the least sense of anyone I've ever heard. somebody who i actually thought would have been on a short list uh is sarah ball who yes who came up at gq um and is editing wsj and and i think just a few hours ago we found out that she um has been promoted to oversee all features at the wall street journal which is i'm a big sarah fan i think that's fantastic um obviously looks like she's not in the running anymore for gq but like i you know she would have been i think a good choice totally she she she spent time at gq right or am I?

34:09Yes, she spent a lot of time there. And in Thursday's line sheet, I say this exact thing. I guess she's not going to GQ. And if you would like some intel on how people inside the building there are reacting to this news that she got this big promotion, I recommend you reading line sheet. But yeah, I think Sarah, I mentioned her and it was funny. She was not mentioned in Lachlan's, which just a note about that, that she was not mentioned in his lineup. But yeah, so like on this Chris Black thing, look, I've known Chris for a long time, so I'm kind of biased, but also like, I don't know. I don't he's he has not been an editor and a manager at a publication before.

34:52So it it seems pretty far fetched to me. But like it was one of those things where on our Instagram about Will's departure, a lot of I looked at who people mentioned. They mentioned Mark Anthony Green. He used to work at GQ. He's a director now. I don't think he's going to be going back to run GQ. I don't know. Maybe he is someone that people would look at. I started thinking about the Chris thing. And look, I don't know. Maybe he wouldn't want to do it either. But the point being that, like, you need someone who has authority with men, who understands, like, modern media. Chris has become famous because of this podcast, How Long Gone, that he does with his friend Jason Stewart.

35:38And also someone who, like, really gets fashion. and European fashion, yes, but also American style, which right now I think for the next 10 years even is going to be a big part of the conversation. Like this is all connected to MAGA and trad life and all of that. And I'm not saying that Chris is wearing a Make America Great Again hat, but he just launched this brand Hanover. It's like jeans and t-shirts, it's very simple, but it's about sort of that American fashion that people like Jonathan Anderson are inspired by right now. Like we've seen the success of J.Crew where Chris is a consultant.

36:21And so I think like, does he have the sort of chops to do it? That's a question. But I think like if he does, someone like that is actually a really interesting prospect. I think the question is, like, is it him or is it someone with a similar profile that we're not thinking about and he's just like in our Instagram? So but but I think he he is a stronger if this was, again, not putting his name up for Vanity Fair. If this was a different situation, it wouldn't be a question. But like there's part of me that thinks they should look at him and consider him. I like the idea of Chris Black as the uniter we've all been waiting for.

37:09I think it's an exciting proposition. Like, again, I'm a fan of the dark horse candidate. And the only thing that makes them as dark horse, I think, is not having the experience that you mentioned. But I think it's a good thing. I think we're certainly in a position in, like, American politics where people who don't have experience are being rewarded with big jobs. and I think that I think he could do a really interesting job the question for me though is like why would he want to like he has a consulting business that I understand you know is really successful he has a the podcast which I mean like most podcasts are not like lucrative but like it's really cemented him in sort of the cultural zeitgeist and he has like a cool guy about town like floating from project to project, starting a clothing line, like consulting situation, which seems kind of ideal in this like this like super fractured media ecosystem.

38:06Like being the editor of a magazine, as we've reported, is like not a desirable job the way that it was many years ago. I really agree that he I think he has currency with a really broad cross section of listeners. and, I mean, not just men, but yes, men in particular. Like, when I went on Chris's podcast last summer, I heard from people who I went to, like, middle school with who I hadn't talked to in years and years. And, like, I mean, that was, I was, I mean, maybe I shouldn't have been shocked, but I think that was one of the most, like, that got, I probably got one of the biggest responses from any, you know, media hits I did when I was going out with the book.

38:52And I think that, I mean, it's interesting, right? I mean, that man about town is kind of what the magazine editor used to be, right? And, like, I think it would be sort of a step up where, you know, you're hosting the Man of the Year Awards or you're doing a Super Bowl thing. And, like, I mean, Chris has, like, a celebrity circle, but this would be, like, another level. And, you know, I don't know if that's the sort of thing he – I don't know whether that's what he's looking to do. but he's a person who went to Charlie XCX's wedding so I think it is

39:27but it's the question is like what what would his for all of these people I don't I can't Chris is the this is the reason it's sticking with me he's the only one where I could see what his GQ would look like I don't know what Sam's would look like I don't know what Will is but maybe Will is a little bit I don't know what this Adam characters would look like I know what Chris's GQ would look like and to me that's exciting and I think the Mark thing which we can talk about next is like evident of that like I'm not shocked by any of the stuff Mark is doing but I'm enjoying it but yeah I think like that's the one the one thing and who knows again this is all up in the air and hopefully there will be some good reporting in the next couple weeks I don't think they're gonna I think they're gonna move fast I don't think I don't think this is gonna i think will is out feb 15th right i think like they gotta get this sorted soon and and it's just tricky because it just feels like there's less people to ponder this time i don't know yeah i think that's right and i think just to transition i think to the mark questions that you you want to talk about like i do think there's like two types of editors and one is the sort of like a visionary editor who like leads with like a really specific vision and like idiosyncratic and like has really specific tastes and then there's like a crowd pleasing editor who like wants who wants to serve their audience before they serve themselves and i think that the publications that are more fun to read are actually the ones that are not so focused on serving their audience and are more about like this one particular creative brain and their expression of their creativity.

41:13Yeah. Yeah. I think like a great example, and I mentioned this, I think in the Will post, and I hate to call her out, but it's okay. She can handle it. It's Sam Berry, who I think has done a great job trying to sell that magazine, but does not clearly doesn't have an idea of what glamour should be. And glamour is hard enough because it's like a CPG and the advertising all fell out. It wasn't going to, again, like she set up to fail. But I think it's a great example of like, look at GQ men of the year versus women of the year for glamour, like, and how those, those things have evolved since these people have been the editors.

41:52I think she, she was probably not the right pick for this modern time of you need someone who's very niche, who can like focus on one thing to make it feel universal instead of the trying to please everybody. And so it's tricky. We'll see. I mean, if anybody knows who is actually going to get this job, please message all of us at the same time. Okay, let's talk about Mark and do a temp check on Mark Guaducci, who has had two issues of Vanity Fair come out. He's had an Olivia Nuzzi scandal, full-blown scandal. He's had they announced the new partnership with LACMA for the Vanity Fair party. How do you all feel about Mark's first few months?

42:43He started in August, his first few months on the job. Well, I'll say that I thought the Susie Wiles, you know, Trump White House piece was just a tremendous victory on every level. I mean, I think it harkened back to two different eras of Vanity Fair, actually. In the 1980s, Tina Brown brought in these kind of aggressive political reporters who made real political news. Gary Hart, he was trying to be Walter Mondale's vice presidential candidate in 1984. And the interview he gave to Gail Sheehy in Vanity Fair was the reason he got knocked out of the running for that. And then what Graydon did in having Annie Leibovitz go shoot George W.

43:30Bush's cabinet is like one of the best kind of, I think, one of the highlights of his tenure and our incredibly memorable photos. And it was kind of provocative because, you know, it's not like Vanity Fair's readership was looking for a glamorization of the Bush administration. But I think that made it all the more exciting. So to see, you know, an article that was so newsy that I think the New York Times like wrote a front page story about what was in it. That was like how a lot of the news came out and had real waves in Washington, real waves in that White House. I know the photos then became controversial.

44:08I'm totally blank on the photographer, but they were like fabulous. Yeah. These up close black and white portraits. It started the debate. Was he making them more grotesque than they were? You know, what were the ethics of this photo shoot? Just the fact that there was such a conversation around a Vanity Fair feature. Yeah. That to me felt like that was like exactly what I think Mark wanted to do coming in, put this magazine back into the discussion. And he knocked it out of the park with that. Totally agree. What else do you think, Jess, about Mark's tenure? I mean, it's really early and I'm still like absorbing.

44:47You know, I'm a subscriber to the print publication. I look forward to getting the February issue that has, I think, Tayana Taylor on the cover. But I think he's made smart hires. You know, I'm particularly fond of Jose, who's writing some stories. And I, yeah, I agree that that Trump story was a huge victory. I think that the... I think he needed it after what happened with Olivia, which also, of course, was related to Trump and to the political storyline. And there was like, what, the prospect that Olivia would be writing political features, which immediately became very problematic. So it also was a it was the corrective he really needed at that point.

45:24Yeah, totally. And I think like people were I don't think there was like a sense of underwhelm about the the first his first issue, the Hollywood issue. But I do think it was so overshadowed by that drama. and the painting the painting and I will say like I one thing I was really curious when that Hollywood issue came out and it focused on men and masculinity is like the whole time I was like what does Will Welch think of this because it felt like GQ's really had been writing and covering the sort of evolution of masculinity over the past few years and that was like Will's sort of you know reason behind his his whole like ethos and I think that But I was surprised to see like Vanity Fair really dip into those same waters, like even having like a sort of literary essay to accompany that photo shoot with, who wrote that?

46:17Otessa. Oh, yeah. And Theo Winner did the shoot. I totally agree. I was surprised by that, too, because I think one real strength of Will's GQ that I think whoever succeeds him is going to have to really sort of stay focused on is that we're actually at this moment where like masculinity is like a major debate and discussion. like what does it mean to be a man like in the culture right now and gq's done these they did this fantastic survey of college students like a couple months ago um one of will smart hires was sasha much nick from who did social at the cut and i think that she worked on this project where they were interviewing college like just male college students around the country and it was like it was just innovative they had a great digital presentation it felt like you know had a little mark gravitas the usual gq thing um i think you know i get i get why mark was like Like it was fun for the boys or whatever the cover line was, but it also felt a little duplicative of like what we'd been seeing in GQ for a few months before that.

47:12Yeah. Although the thing I loved the most about the fashion in that cover was that they were really mixing brands in a way that I find totally refreshing and totally against like this terrible pattern in fashion magazines or this terrible practice in fashion magazines of full look like mandate from the brands. Like it was so fun to see like Abercrombie shorts with a Saint Laurent like blazer or something like that was really cool. But I think his biggest test is ahead of him with Oscars party in March. I agree. And I think it's interesting. I obviously a clock that there was conversation for several months about masculinity.

47:54As I always like to say, men are back. but uh it didn't bother me i was really obsessed with the savviness of that boys cover in that he was sort of mirroring what jonathan anderson did at dior with theo and the sort of bruce weber throwback and then also all the cute boys or whatever and kind of hiding the fact that he probably couldn't have gotten everybody he couldn't get everybody he wanted to get that type of thing and i i like specifically probably couldn't get bruce weber exactly well yeah i think that would have gone one step too far yeah one although many magazines do it was it was the closest to get yeah to get yeah yeah um but i thought and i thought the nuzzy stuff until it until we found out the the second part of it i was like whatever i i don't i think obviously this is a stunt, but I think it sort of fell, it went further than he probably ever imagined it could because she had not, clearly had not disclosed everything to everybody.

49:02But anyway, most people listening to this podcast don't probably know who Olivia Nuzzi is, so let's keep it that way. And the mix is the most important part of that. I mean, that's what, that's sort of the Tina Brown lesson. And I know, and you know what I really appreciate about Mark is just how much he like is a student of sort of the classic Vanity Fair. And I think he's, you know, he spent time with Tina, he spent time with Graydon, you know, he has a real respect for those who came before him. And I think he's been really trying to find that high-low mix that I think is what makes VF such a great read.

49:39Yeah. And I think the party's going to be awesome. Like he partnered with LACMA on this new wing. I asked Matt Bellany about this and I said, do you think this is tacky? And he was like, no, I think it's really savvy. Like it is, it's, I, it's going to be a big, it's going to have to be big because he has to invite advertisers. They can't make it tiny and not invite advertisers anymore. It's the days of that are over. And so it's going to be a big thing. And I think it's going to be fun. And, you know, his real competition, I would say, and Jess and I were both there is Sarah Moonves' tiny but sponsored W Magazine party that she does before the Globes.

50:22It's like super fun and all the celebrities show up and Christian Louboutin sponsors it and he's dancing the dance floor with Kendall Jenner or whatever. And it's off the record, but they invite reporters anyway. And it feels like a fun time. And Mark's thing is obviously a much bigger scale thing but Sarah is gaining a lot of power in Hollywood she already had a lot but like you can feel it and so that's to me they are the two that are really competing right now for like mind share and advertising and all that stuff and they have such different points of view too You know, I think like Sarah is such a sort of, for lack of a better word, like a nerd for like photography and like and can do the sort of avant garde, more like artistic thing.

51:19I think Vanity Fair still has to be a mainstream magazine. But don't forget that like Sarah also runs the business for W. So she doesn't have to like answer to a business side that is making certain demands, whatever this might be.

51:37Protein is now at Starbucks, and it's never tasted so good. You can add protein cold foam to your favorite drink or try one of our new protein lattes or matcha. Try it today at Starbucks.

51:52This episode is brought to you by White Claw Surge. Nice choice hitting up this podcast. No surprises. You're all about diving into tastes everyone in the room can enjoy, just like White Claw Surge. It's for celebrating those moments when connections have been made and the night's just begun. With bold flavors and 8 % alcohol by volume, unleash the night. Unleash White Claw Surge. Please drink responsibly. Hard seltzer with flavors. 8 % alcohol by volume. White Claw Seltzer Works. Chicago, Illinois.

52:25I thought we would talk about Radhika Jones' upcoming memoir, but we don't have to. I don't know if you all have any opinions about it. We should say, because I just stumbled on it yesterday, Am I right in saying it is a memoir about books or books she has read? I think it's like a My Life in Books kind of concept that just from reading the publisher's weekly screenshot. I'm going to buy it. I'm going to read it. I hope you secure an interview with her, Jess. The book Tina did after she sprawled out of Talk Magazine was her delectable biography of Princess Diana. Oh, yes. It's so good. Vanity Fair Diaries, obviously, a must read.

53:05If there are people who are listening to this who haven't read that, leave this podcast right now and pick it up, along with Michael's book, obviously. The VF Diaries make a great audiobook, too. She just has this wonderful voice. But I'm most excited about Jane Pratt's memoir coming out this year. I think it's going to be like, I think she's going to go for it. I think she's going to say everything that she wants to say. And it's not going to be one of these books that we saw last year that were like felt like they were holding back, you know, the sort of juice. As the number one Jane Pratt fan, huge reason I became a fashion journalist.

53:43Love her. When she came on my podcast, I truly started crying. I don't cry. I was like, I can't. I mean, I've met her many times, but it just like is very emotional for me. Her and Liz Tilbaris, that was like my I wanted to be a cross between them. Anyway, my one concern is that she is so open and honest that she has said all the she has told all the stories. I don't know. I with her, I just feel like maybe there are. Well, yeah. So even if she has told all of them, there's still going to be a discovery of them for like the non super fans such as. And I will say when I talk to her from my Condé book, she definitely was.

54:21I just I sense she was holding back a few things for for her memoir. And so I remember saying to her, I was just like, well, I just can't wait to read what you what you're going to come up with. So that makes me feel better. OK, so a couple final questions. Do you think that Condé Nast is suddenly a better place to work? And maybe we can discuss what happened with Gourmet in the context of that question. I want to say something, which is that I think that Condé Nast has a positive story to tell that they're not telling. So I was really struck when the whole Teen Vogue thing happened where they folded it into Vogue.

54:58You know, these writers were let go. There was sort of this firestorm over, you know, Teen Vogue had been like an anti-Trump publication and were they, you know, acquiescing or something like that. And I was like, you know, The New Yorker and Wired have some of the most aggressive coverage of this White House of like any publication. I mean, Wired was breaking all this news about Elon Musk and Doge. And, you know, the idea that Kanye West is like one of the only big media companies that hasn't like surrendered or sort of shown some kind of like, you know, capitulation to to this administration.

55:38I shouldn't say that. I mean, but, you know, we've seen that happen at ABC and CBS, which are, you know, much larger media organizations than Condé. So like the fact that they kind of weren't able to get a hold of that narrative and it just turned into like a week and a half's worth of like Condé is a horrible place to work. Like, I felt that that was Condé. That was on Condé for not managing that news, for not like actually emphasizing the parts of this company that are succeeding right now and doing good journalism in an impossible environment for journalists. And I just think like, I don't know, I think part, I think they create a lot of problems for themselves.

56:17Preach. A hundred percent. It's so frustrating. It's so frustrating. exciting i'll also say like i think a lot of people have been in all of our dms recently just being like god what is going on over there like what a what a mess and like i do think that i agree with mike there's a positive story to be told but there's also like i have this idea that there's maybe never been a more fun time to be a magazine editor there i know you don't agree with this but no i i i half and half i think it's like i think the odds are against that like you can produce your best work when you're coming from like an underdog positioning the problem is the company at large for reasons described in mike's book empire of elite 40 off on amazon is that like i don't think the company will ever let go of its um positioning as or its desired positioning as like a luxury, high end, top of culture, top of, you know, wealth and finger on the pulse kind of thing.

57:21Like, I think if they truly embraced this like underdog, like dynamic, you have all these millennial editors coming in who have who are so well positioned to like turn rags into riches because that's like what their generation knows best. And they could really like have some fun and be scrappy and be weird and get attention. And I hope they do. But I think like their parent company might get in the way a little bit unless it lets go of that like posturing that it's held on to for decades. I agree with half of that. One is I don't think I think it could still be luxury and elite and all that stuff.

57:56I think we both work. We all work at places that have proven that you can have fun while managing your business properly. Like know You're right that all these millennials, they know that they aren't going to have budgets like they used to, and they're not dreaming of that. Because they never realized it. Neither of you have ever worked there, right? No. No. Okay, I worked there for two years, from 2011 to the end of 2012. And I was the executive online editor of Lucky Magazine. And I reported directly to the editor-in-chief, who was Brandon Hawley. And what I will say is the problem, the problem is, and I agree that like, I think Mark is having fun or I hope Mark is having fun.

58:44I think Chloe seems to be having fun. They just launched Vogue Book Club, Wuthering Heights. Like, great. I, I think I'm so into it. Like, thank God it's not an Emily Henry novel. Like, this is, this is it. You could still be a leader. Like, obviously the movie's coming out and stuff. But I think the problem is like I have to tell you all, yes, I'm a reporter and that's why I shouldn't have had that job. It was the worst job. I've never I've liked every other job I've ever had. It was terrible. The three days in, I remember I ran into Eric Wilson, former New York Times reporter, and I said, I'm just going to stay a year and use it as like just to observe how they work because it was so terrible.

59:26And I'm sure like these jobs suck. Like they are just awful. All you do is you go in meetings and they tell you can't do anything and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I think I'm I hope that that's changing now that there is a new generation of leadership. and and it does feel like if I was 27 years old I would want to work for Mark I would want to work for Will or Chloe like they seem fun nice interesting people trying to do interesting things but there is a lot of and I do think it's changed this is a great thing that's changed under Roger Lynch there is a lot of um the legacy stuff has been pulled away because a lot of those legacy executives have been moved out.

1:00:11But the problem is, as we're talking about what happened during that Teen Vogue thing, what were they thinking? The union workers storming Stan's office? Just manage it. None of that has to happen. And we all can see it from the outside. And it feels like it does feel like they're doing themselves a disservice when you're right about the fact, Jess, that like being scrappy and doing stuff creatively right now, there is a big opportunity there. And everyone who's 45 or younger, like understands that. And, you know, I'm really 50 and younger at this point. Like I'm getting up there. So, like, it is is I just think that.

1:01:03Unfortunately, we are going to have to do their PR, essentially. Look, I mean, it is so, so hard to turn an institution like that. And The New York Times went through that sort of growing pain process of like even getting people to experiment and innovate, you know, took a long time. Now, I mean, in a way, like, Condé has done that stuff, the test kitchens, the, you know, the video. But I mean, of course, all those had their own bumps in the road. I do sometimes wonder, I mean, they're sort of, they're also in a bit of a, like, Anna is so powerful and in so many ways, like, provides the power of the place.

1:01:44But of course, she is just from a different generation. And I think it's great that there are younger editors who are finally taking over these magazines, but they all are reporting up to her. And I think Anna has many talents, but there is something to be said when you look back through the history of Condé Nast. You know, it was known for these ruthless firings of editors where they just after 20 years, they'd be tossed out the door. But, you know, the reason Diana Vreeland was fired was because Vogue was not relevant anymore and it was starting to lose money and it was just not in touch with the culture.

1:02:20and as brilliant a fashion editor she was, she wasn't, you know, attuned to, you know, femininity in the 1970s, which was, you know, where the magazine had to go. And Conde's only, you know, its cultural currency is what gives it its influence. And, you know, there's a point where they're just going to have to, like, jump off the diving board and kind of hand it off to the next generation. If they want to survive, yeah. So what, can we talk briefly about what happened was Gourmet that just wrote about this yesterday? Yeah. Five journalists basically joined forces to apply for the trademark that Conde had let lapse.

1:03:05Gourmet shuttered in 2009, but they had kept renewing the trademark, which lasts 10 years. And but I think that there is a sort of trademark law where you have to, if you're going to hold on to it for 10 years, you have to use it. And I think in this last decade, they hadn't used it or they simply forgot to renew it. Something happened. They didn't renew it. And a journalist, this journalist, Sam Dean, who used to work at the L.A. Times and has worked up on a petite in the past, realized this and got together and formed a sort of worker-owned publication similar to Defector for Media, Hellgate, if anyone is familiar with those publications.

1:03:45and they're putting out a newsletter, turning into a newsletter. Just the idea that Condé's IP department would not realize that Gourmet was going to lapse and they would lose control of it. I mean, we haven't actually gotten comment from them on this, right? We don't quite know what happened. But from the outside, it's like... They haven't commented on this. Shocking to you, I know. It's just... And, you know, Jess's article, which everyone should read because it's it's it's a great piece. You had like 400 comments on there on the New York Times website. And yes, I understand like New York Times readers are older, just as most like legacy media readers are.

1:04:27But God, the memories people have about gourmet and like, you know, how much it means to them and people still have their old issues and their old recipes. I'm just sitting there like just do something with it. Like you'll get a response. And like the fact that they were so lackadaisical to let it lapse is like, it's not a good situation. Yep. Final question, you all. Do you think that the editors of the magazines, of the papers, of the whatever they're called now, are contractually obligated to thank Stan Duncan in their Instagram posts? Because I noticed Mark did it. I believe Chloe did it. Will did it.

1:05:04They all thank Roger Lynch, the CEO, Anna Wintour, and Stan Duncan. And I just think it's I love our our head of people, Amy. I'm not thanking her in my Instagram post about anything. I don't know. I mean, what do you think? I would say Kané Nast is a place where managing up is one of the most important skills you can have to climb the pole. So it's possible that it's kind of just ingrained in everyone there. I can't speak to sort of Stan's individual charisma. Given Stan's like larger than life presence in line sheet, I just think it's funny. It is really funny. He's a line sheet character. He's one of your...

1:05:45Yeah, he's a regular. He really likes going to fashion shows. And then every time he goes, even if I'm not at the show, someone calls me and is like, Stan went this time.

1:05:58He did a red carpet photo at the Met. Don't do that. Just don't do it. It's like you're an HR guy. I understand like maybe you could be the CEO of Chanel someday. Lena Nair used to be an HR person, but like she was an HR person at Unilever, not Conde Nast, a private company that makes less than two billion dollars a year or whatever. Before we go, do we think that Zoran is going to go to the Met Gala? Yeah, this has been a big topic of conversation for me just with my old fashioned friends. I don't think he's going to go. I think he should go but I don't think he's going to I think it's like going it's too it's too dangerous it's too at odds I think I think that his team is so savvy that they'll probably find something else splashy for him to do that night as like counter programming but Eric Adams went I think Bill de Blasio went once that could be wrong somebody fact check me but uh he could go I just don't think he will I think he might be too cautious to go this year but I think eventually he will show up.

1:07:01I think what AOC did with the tax the rich dress, that's the closest parallel here where you have another democratic socialist. Like, how do you reconcile the fact that this is like the most lavish elite event of the year? And yet also like one of the most, you know, beloved New York City institutions and you're raising money for art. And I think I mean, this is like a whole podcast in itself, but Rama, First Lady Rama, I also think, you know, she is a big supporter of um the arts well and also designers also um of what's this uh emerging designers is the phrase and i do think that like the chance for if she like the the exposure that one of these designers would get to like have rama wear their dress at the med gala would be astrid i mean that would change their life and like there's a there's a question in my mind like you know yeah like whatever it's elite or something like that but i mean she's kind of then holding back like it would be light changing for someone to hold her where my question is what is his sort of what does he want to do after this what is his ambition because i agree i think she wears colleen allen it is it's big for everyone involved um not being living in new york and and observing all this has been fascinating for me because i feel really connected to the city but And as I think I said this on a previous podcast, this is the first time where I've this feels there are a lot of people who vote Democrat who are like, I didn't vote for him.

1:08:36Like, like, it's just it's really polarizing in a way. Whereas, like, you know, all those Republicans who say they didn't vote for Trump and actually did. I feel like there are a lot of Democrats that didn't vote for Zoran that say they did. But I also think there's a lot of people who never voted before who came out. But I think like, I don't know. We live in a world where he should be able to and F you to everyone. But I think a question is like, who's a sponsor? Is it Amazon or is it a bank or whatever? And are people not gonna be smart enough to put two and two together for that year? And then also like the long-term thing is, I don't know what the long-term damage would be and also what he wants to do after he does this.

1:09:28So I think they should do it because it's supporting an institution in New York. Whether or not they will, I don't know. Maybe we're putting too much emphasis. How damaging could it actually be? I think it depends on who they wear and how they act at these things. that type of thing. I could see him punting this year and coming back when he has a little more time to gauge things. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But he is a master of, like, image and public. I mean, he's... Fascinating. He's great at it, so... Yeah, it would capture so many headlines. And I think it'd be very good for Vogue and The Met to have him there.

1:10:12But I agree. I think he... Great for suit supply. That too. Oh, yeah. This was great, guys. You're the best. read Michael and Jess on the newyorktimes.com. Buy Michael's book. And I'm sure that we'll have another reason to do this soon. We love you. Fashion people. Come to New York soon, Lauren. I will. I'm I'll be there February 7th. I'll see you. Thanks for having us. Bye everybody. Fashion people is a presentation of Odyssey in partnership with Puck. This show was produced and edited by Molly Nugent. Special thanks to our executive producers, Puck co-founder John Kelly, executive editor Ben Landy, and director of editorial operations, Gobby Grossman.

1:10:59An additional thanks to the team at Odyssey, J.D. Crowley, Jenna Weiss-Berman, and Bob Tabador. This episode is brought to you by Athletic Brewing Company. No matter how you do game day, on the couch, in the crowd, or manning the snack table, Athletic Brewing fits right in. With a full lineup of non-alcoholic beer styles, you can enjoy bold flavors all game long. No hangovers, no buzz, no subbing out for water in the second half. Stock the fridge for tip-off with a variety of non-alcoholic craft styles available at your local grocery store or online at athleticbrewing.com. Your beer, fit for all times.