Love Wins

0:27Hello and welcome to Fashion People. to remind you that if you like this podcast, you'll definitely love Puck, where I send an email called Line Sheet. If you're a fashion person, you get that reference. It's an original look at what's really going on inside the fashion and beauty industries. Line Sheet is scoopy, analytical, and above all, fun. Along with me, a subscription to Puck gains you access to an unmatched roster of experts reporting on powerful people and companies in entertainment, media, sports, politics, finance, the art world, and much more. If you're interested, listeners of Fashion People get a discount.

1:04Just go to puck.news slash fashion people to join Puck or start a free trial.

1:12Happy Friday, everyone. Hope you're having a great week. I'm in Nashville. I've been here for the last couple of days to check out the new Hermes store. uh excel dumas the global ceo and a bunch of other executives flew out for this and hosted us at a cocktail party at the store last night so thank you all for that it was really really nice it's been a very fun trip i'm a big fan of nashville and it was great to spend time with the hermes team just an fyi puck paid for my accommodations in flight i love press trips but not press trips on this job. My paid press trip days have been over for about, I don't know, 10 years.

1:55I think the last one I went on might have been an Hermes one, but that's a story for another day. Anyway, I'll be writing about my experience here more soon. In other news, check out Thursday's line sheet. I had some updates on some HR moves at WSJ. Roy Satrin left the business. I think we'll hear from her soon but I have a little bit of detail on that I also did a Where Are They Now line sheet edition which is very fun if you want to know where Jose Nevis is I have some ideas the ex-farfetched founder and CEO if you didn't know also I reviewed the Victoria's Secret fashion show and I also the big story was about the shakeup of Vestiaire Collective which their CEO left last week lots of stuff going on main competitor to the real real especially in Europe you should read the piece but the tdlr is that what it is to know tldr so why we don't use these acronyms and in line cheater on a puck ever they're banned um is that people love shopping secondhand but it remains a tough business so anyway check out the check out the email for that one it's really interesting.

3:10I hope you enjoy this conversation with Pamela. I am a big fan of getting my cards read and going to psychics. I do it like once every couple of years. It's like, feels like a year of therapy in one session. I think it's really fun if you don't take it too seriously. So don't take it too seriously, but enjoy it and buy her deck. I have played with it a bit myself and have done subsequent readings. I need to stop. But I also need to stop this. We'll talk soon.

3:41Pamela Love, welcome to Fashion People. Thank you. Thank you for having me. What did you have for breakfast this morning? I had a little bit of scrambled eggs off my son's plate and smoked salmon toast. Ah, that's my dream breakfast. That's more than I normally have for breakfast, but I'm traveling, so I had a hotel breakfast. I also had a similar I my son and I shared scrambled eggs and my husband is celiac so I am as well well you need to get these um do you know this capellos this this gluten-free they make pasta yes like ravioli yeah and it's all like almond based so it's very caloric and high protein if you need energy.

4:31That's also very good for you versus like the rice pasta, which is not great for you. Exactly. Agreed. Yes. So he and I split this like cheddar chive biscuit that they have. Oh, yeah. It's very, because I usually don't eat them because I want to save them for my husband, but my husband's out of town. And you also like real gluten probably. I love gluten. I love bread. I have a rule that I'll still eat sourdough. I think that's fair. It doesn't upset me in the same way it's fermented. So I had it on sourdough this morning, but yes. So good. So good. So you and I have gotten to know each other better because we both live in Los Angeles.

5:09And also I text you a lot because one of my best friends is named Pamela Lev, L-E-V. Shout out. And living in LA, I do voice to text text messages. I'm in the car for 45 minutes. All I do is I roll calls and text people. And I'm constantly texting Pamela Love being like, hey, girl, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And you're like, this is Pamela Love. And thank you for the invite. I love getting your Pamela Love text. I also like that when I sometimes text you, you think for a minute you're talking to Pamela Love. Yes. And then you're like, oh, wait, no, this makes more sense. This text makes more sense now that I realize it's coming from Pamela Love.

5:53Yes, it's it will be about an industry thing. And I'm like, why is Pam asking me about this? And or that like hair, the hair tree. Oh, yes. Yes. Yes. Yeah. Yes. We've also bonded over our our trials as curly hair girls. Very, very frizzy curly hair over here. It looks beautiful. So, okay, let's rewind. And we're here to talk about your awesome book, but I wanted to first kind of chat about you and what, who you are and obviously have been interacting with you for the last like 15 years. You have this jewelry line that you've had since when? Late 2000s? 2007. Oh my God. Can you believe that? It's amazing.

6:43But I don't even count, like the first year or two was like in my apartment. Like I don't, you know, like I think it really sort of became more of like a formal business that actually, I think maybe 2009 we moved into an office space. Yeah. But yeah, I mean, we were active from 2008, which is crazy. How did you get into the jewelry business? Because it's not an easy business to get into or be in. Well, so when I first started, I was actually working at Barney's, if you can believe that. I was the women's trunk show coordinator. That was a job. Amazing. And it was actually a great job. And I had a friend that worked with me at Barney's, and we were both like jewelry freaks, and we loved making things.

7:39I mean, I can rewind further their back, but took metalsmithing classes in high school. Glassblowing was always a very jewelry-obsessed, hands-on person. I always made jewelry. I always made my own jewelry growing up. But when I was working at Barney's as the Women's Drunk Show Coordinator, I became friends with another woman. We were both in our mid-20s, and she was also very into jewelry, and we decided we wanted to start something together. So we started like a project together and, you know, made some pieces, went out to some stores. And shortly after, she decided she was going to move away from New York and didn't really want to continue.

8:30And that was fine, because we hadn't really gotten off the ground. But like, I really had, like, like, I was like, I want to see this through, I want to do this. So at that point, you know, I just kind of went on my own. I definitely didn't have the experience or the skills I needed. I ended up apprenticing in the Diamond District for a little while, working, you know, with really straightforward stuff, tennis bracelets, solitaire engagement rings, you know, working for other people. And I was very lucky that early on, I just, I think I had the right aesthetic for that time. And, you know, I had friends that were borrowing it, wearing it, using it in shoots.

9:24And And it just sort of like right place, right time, right aesthetic, right people wearing it. And we were able to turn it into or I I say we because now my name is like a company. So it's like sometimes hard to separate. I was able to sort of turn it into a business. I had no business plan, no any of the things that I now know are necessary to start a brand. You know, it was very different. was the because because the thing about barney's and you being there is that that was also sort of mecca for fine jewelry and independent jewelers in particular and it was sort of like if you could make it at barney's you could have a business and yeah um and also just so much expertise around jewelry like i think about the publicist cindy Krupp who ended up, who I'm sure you've worked with on and off over the years.

10:20Yes, she was our publicist at one point for sure. Yeah, yeah. And she was there, she got her start at Barney's in the jewelry department. I didn't know that. Yeah, she was the PR person for jewelry. So I think, I mean, that part, I'm sure she'll message and fact check me. But I know she worked there. And so I think like. She's great. She's great. She's so great. But was seeing how that operated or even just like getting the appointment to talk to the buyer, did you feel like having the Barneys connection gave you a little sense of how that world operated? It definitely did. They rejected us initially.

11:06The first line that I had with my friend who was actually the fine jewelry specialist, which was the irony of it. They were like, this isn't for us. And we were like, okay, fine. So I actually, you know, after I sort of, you know, separated and started on my own, I left Barney's. I ended up working as a painting, as Francesco Clemente's painting assistant, which I did for a very long time. And I went off on my own and started the jewelry brand while working for Francesco. And I didn't go back to Barney's for a very long time. I just kind of felt that my, I was just, I had a very specific aesthetic.

11:48And, you know, like our first accounts were like Colette and opening ceremony. And even ironically enough, Bergdorf Men's. Bergdorf Men's was one of my first accounts. Oh, wow. That's cool. So, you know, it wasn't for a few years until we were back in the Barney's fold. And then that's where we were. And that was my main account until the end. You know, they were like our wonderful home. But it took me a second to go back to them and even present to them because, you know, I was like, I felt rejected. And even though that was like a different project, and it didn't fully represent me, it was a collaborative effort.

12:26I still felt insecure and rejected. And like, Like, and also like it wasn't necessarily the right aesthetic for them. Yeah. At that time, it eventually did, you know, once, you know, it did. But it took me a second to have the confidence, I think. Yeah. So you came up in a time like, first of all, your aesthetic really did fit with the fashion of the time. So like girls would wear your stuff with Alex Wang t-shirts or whatever. And like, it felt like you were really a part of this downtown thing. And there was at the same time, there was a group of downtown jewelry designers. And also, I think that Dana, it was Dana, right?

13:15Who Fenton Fallon, she lived downtown. But she was, I think so. But she was part of this too. It was like you, Fenton Fallon, Pamela Love, Eddie Borgo, you all had very different aesthetic and a different approach. But they were all hard. They were edgy. They felt they felt tough. Yeah. I'd say yours had something like the sun and the moon and the tarot in it. It was more. It was a little more. Mine was a little more crunchy and a little. It was like theirs was a little more straightforward, glossy punk. And mine was like a little more like, I don't know, hippie punk. Yeah, like Stevie Nicks, a little more Stevie Nicks mixed into mine.

14:02Yeah. So what was it like? Because you were also like a CFDA darling. You were in that time in American fashion was so fascinating. What was it like to come up through that? And then you've somehow managed. I mean, it's almost 20 years old. I know. You somehow managed to stay in business, which is not easy given. And looking at like what happened to so many designers, not just in jewelry, but even in ready to wear from that period, you know. Yeah. I mean, Barney's alone. I remember. I don't know. Barney's is not in business. No, I remember. I don't remember. I don't know what your deal with them was, but there was so much stuff in the jewelry department that it wasn't great.

14:47No. And it and like it was getting discounted. And I remember other retailers were sort of helping with it. They would like buy some of the stuff and, you know, like there was just all this stuff that the other retailers were doing to sort of support the jewelry designers while their stuff got cleaned out of Barney's, which is we luckily didn't have any markdowns. But we there was some issues. It's amazing. Yeah. It was it was it hurt us a lot. And it was a business that we struggled to replace because it's a very special. It's very special, very special customer. Yeah. But but what was it? What was it like at that time?

15:27And how did I stay in business for all these years? So I guess going back to the first part of the question, you know, I don't think I even realized at the time, like. how spectacular of a time it was. You know, you're so in it when you're in it. And it's very competitive between all the CFDA stuff and the Vogue stuff. And just like, you're like you said, you listed some brands that were, you know, having the moment at the same time I was having the moment. I think that was always tough for me. I was always like, oh, I'm not as good as they are. You know, I struggled with that. Yeah. And so I think sometimes it's hard to see the forest for the trees, especially when you're young.

16:15So I was so in it in the day to day in like the work of it. And I'm like, a beast when it comes to creating. Yeah, just I was just in it all the time. I just wanted to make jewelry wanted to make photos wanted to make crazy presentations, you know, so I was just so in the creation of it all that I don't think I appreciated or was able to step back enough to be like, this is so weird and cool. Like, did you ever think that this is what, you know, it would be like? So for me, I think that I wish, you know, going back to that time in New York, that maybe I could have like appreciated it more had like some more moments of like, this is awesome, you know, but I was more like, I have to finish this and I have to finish this and I have to get this done.

17:03And, you know, that, you know, you're an ambitious person, I'm sure, and successful, ambitious woman, I'm sure you get that. I feel you. But, and I think for me, you know, having a namesake brand is really hard because it becomes your sense of self. It becomes your self-worth. And you also, it's so tied to you in this way that I think it's not if you like, you know, I know that sounds silly, but if like I called it like shtoodle doodle, maybe I would have felt less pressure, but it was like my entire being was, I felt on the line. It was this brand. The brand success was so important to my sense of self-worth um and so I think that pressure also made it kind of you know intense

18:03I feel like you have evolved I don't know but how have you been able to manage through that because I feel like a lot of people do that in the fashion industry in the in particular where and you I used to see it in media with like people they work at a certain media company and they're like oh I could never leave because like then what would I be and it's like my entire identity yeah yeah yeah how did you get through that um well there was a period in which I I think I reached like a total burnout period. It was just so much work, so much stress. You know, the brand had some very nice, like we had great successes, but with great success comes a lot of more pressure, more stress, more employees, more overhead, all these things that like, honestly, I'm a, I'm a maker.

18:56I'm not a business person. I think in a lot of ways at that time, I was learning how to be a business person. And I reached a point where I felt like, okay, I can't do this. I can't be the creative director and the CEO and the CFO. And I have an amazing team, but I'm still like the senior business person, which is absurd because I'm a creative. so I ended up selling a majority stake in my company to a group that bought jewelry brands invested in jewelry brands and for better or worse I think that at that time I was able to start to separate myself from the business in a way where I was able to just look at it as this is it's a separate thing from me yeah things are going to happen in my life and things are going to happen in its life and they don't necessarily mean you know if something bad happens in my personal life it doesn't mean something you know what I mean it's like totally I was able to separate more um and um and in that time you know also the designs were evolving the the aesthetic was evolving as I was evolving, you know, as a human being and a person like who, you know, is, like you said, it was a different time.

20:28Like I'm not wearing Alexander Wang t-shirts anymore. You know what I mean? So, so the brand itself was evolving and what I liked, I wanted, while I was able to sort of separate myself more, I didn't want the aesthetic of the brand to separate from me as a person. I wanted to be able to still put forward what I thought, what I wanted to create. So I didn't, you know, I was continuing to move, but on a personal level, I was separating more. And a thing on a little bit of it, that makes a lot of sense. And I think the answer to so much much of this stuff is like figuring out ways that you can still do the creative thing and figure making the business support that and not focusing so much on you see this so much with creative people where the business they need they need the help because either they need to sell it or they need more money or they need whatever and then they end up just focusing more on the business and the creative ends up being two minutes of it but I've thought a lot of what you've done that's interesting is like interesting collaborations that people wouldn't expect like you've done rent the runway huge projects your design clothes like you've done a lot more than just like a target club which is perfectly fine I don't know if you've done one but I haven't but I understand yeah that for a while great I love the collabs team I mean for the era I came from that was it like you wanted a target collab remember it was like target collab target collab huge and it was a good thing but like honestly how much and I used to buy them I used to be like when I would go visit my mom in Florida I'd be like we have to go to target I have to buy the totally i don't know they still do them and they're fat and they're still fabulous um and but yes it was back then it was like the thing now i'm like more into the uniqlo collabs yeah i mean the unico they're so good they're so good they're so good that guy is he just wants to dominate the world i love i love it he's definitely dominating my pants right now you are very um do you wear a lot of la mer you know i have some and i love it but you know i don't i wouldn't say i wear like a ton of it but i love it i think after having atticus you know i kind of i'm still like trying to get back into my fashion mojo as like a yeah as like a postpartum body you know i understand but i love la mer yes but my postpartum body is definitely in flux Well, you look great.

23:14Thank you, likewise. And I think our kids are around the same age. So yes, it's, you know, you think it's going to be like one day and then you're back to normal, but it's not. No, it's never going back. Don't say that, please. Although, no, no. I mean, I will say, I was just saying the other day to someone, I spent the last two months at home, so I weirdly had a lot of extra time and exercised a lot. I wish I would do that if I spent two months at home. Exercise helps, but you need to do it. I've been a little bit in a lull lately. You know, there's been a lot going on. A lot going on. um but yeah i think um i don't know what you were talking about before just like all the different projects you've done to sort of support the bit so that you can keep doing the creating yeah i think for for me it always it always has to be special and exciting and reflect what me and my team are interested in at the time, which is evolving, but always sort of has this like through line.

24:28And so I never want to, I don't know, like, I want to do interesting projects. I want to do weird collabs. I want to create interesting jewelry and other things outside of the jewelry space. You know, for me, I've always wanted to sort of push the envelope of what, you know adornment is what jewelry is um i would definitely say that like you know there was like a period again after i i sold the company where there was a lot of you know tension around that you know as you i'm sure have know from anyone you talk to who sells their company to private equity or to a group or to a you know it's not like oh now i have money and a ceo and i can make whatever the hell I want.

25:18Like there are business people who want to do what they want to do. So there was definitely a struggle for a few years to sort of accomplish what I would say is my like highest level of creative output and vision for this brand. How were you able to work through it without giving the nitty gritty details of the struggle? Well, we uncoupled a year and a half ago, and now we're able to explore what we want to explore. I have amazing partners who are a lot more creative, or I would say are very creative, and are interested in doing something special. and yeah you know it's not just like oh well we have to make this much money and we have to sell this many hoop earrings and you know look at their hoop earrings and you know like we don't i don't people aren't like constantly bringing up like you know brands that i don't you know what i mean like it's it's different they have nothing to do with yeah like if i have to hear about you know hoop earrings like basic hoop earrings from like brands that you know sell things for$49.99 like I never want to hear about that again no you know no so I have partners now who are incredibly creative and excited about doing things outside of the box yeah

27:02one question before we get into your your book and and what tarot has meant to you because i think it's a really interesting it actually might connect to the question i'm going to ask it's about the client part of being a jewelry designer so i am i'm friends with you I am friends with Danielle Sherman. I'm friends with Sophie Buhay and have known all of you for a long time in different iterations of your careers. I know from Danielle, she does like a lot of pounding the pavement. I renew earth the same thing. For sure. In this new iteration of the business in particular, but like how much has the client facing stuff been important for you and is part of your relationship with them you reading their tarot so I so since Alex and Stephanie and I took the brand over we have really focused on growing well I wouldn't say we really focused but we really found that there was a big interest in our fine jewelry and our engagement rings that had kind of been ignored for a few years.

28:18And so we really were excited to delve into that portion of the business. I love creating engagement rings, wedding bands, being part of people's lives in that way. And so we've just seen explosive growth in that space for us since we, you know, gave it attention and nurtured it. And that is a very client focused part of the business. I'm working with clients very personally. And then of course, you know, some of these clients, it just turns into an ongoing relationship in which, you know, they're getting a wedding band or an engagement ring or just like an custom piece. And then they, you know, they come back regularly.

29:03And I love it. I love working with people directly. I would say I wasn't the best at it coming up. I think maybe I had a little bit of like an imposter syndrome. You know, I wasn't like one of those designers who came from a ton of affluence. And I know that, you know, a lot of that really, you know, people who are spending a lot of money on jewelry are often connecting with designers who are from a similar world. So I always felt a little, you know, I came from like, you know, I was in like the punk scene growing up and had a ton of tattoos and, you know, really wasn't like as polished, I would say.

29:43So I think it took me a really long time to be comfortable with who I was and comfortable sitting in a room with people who were different than me and knowing that they still respected me as a creator and were coming to me even despite maybe us not being exactly the same. Yeah, I can understand that. I mean, the jewelry business, a lot of it is like really rich people start jewelry brands because you have to have a lot of money to start a jewelry brand. And when it doesn't happen that way, and also being young, you started it when you were so young. I was so young, I'm like 26 or 27. And I was just like, I think I was like wearing like fishnet stockings and combat boots, you know, like.

30:29You were always so you like the thing that I think is really good about your brand is I can close my eyes and see it. And also you are still the same person. It's not like I'm not wearing fishnet stockings. No, no. No, I prefer the La Mer. but yeah now now la mare um you know i'll take some i'll take the row or some jw anderson with combat boots but exactly but but i think you are are so yourself and and so this is this book it feels it's it's a tear the infinite door a tarot deck and guidebook which unfortunately my um press review has not gotten here yet but i'm looking through the um oh because if we were going to do the tarot read you need i need to have can you do them i can do it virtually okay great um but the infinite deck and guidebook and can you talk a bit about so you worked with this artist chris maniecki is that what you say yeah so chris and i were you're gonna like die over this story So Chris and I have worked together for, I don't know, since 2009, 10.

31:52I met Chris when I was designing the jewelry for Zach Posen's runway show. Oh, my God. Wow. And he was a women's wear designer at Zach Posen. But he was literally the most, my God, my shirt's coming open and I see that. I didn't see anything. You didn't see my, okay. he was literally we were so connected as people we had so many of the same influences we both came from like the like music scene like punk music scene in our like small towns he's from long island i was i grew up in south florida we like liked all the same bands we both played music we were both interested in like the same movies and the same art and i was like how did you end up designing like women's gowns he's like dude I don't even know but here I am and he was so talented um and he just he can draw he can paint he's an amazing photographer and we just ended up really becoming close friends we ended up in a band together he played guitar I played the drums like like familial you know and um at a certain point and it was around the time that I was doing a collaboration with opening ceremony and spike jones for where the wild things are and I was like drowning and he called me and he was like I'm leaving zach like there's it's not like hard feelings I love zach but I need to like move out of like women's wear it's not where I'm at um and I was like, I'm doing this project right now and I'm drowning.

33:28Can you come help me? And I had a team at that time, but like we were doing a bunch of leather stuff and that was new for me. And Zach and Chris was like really good with leather. He was like a leather expert. We were doing, we were doing these like crazy head pieces for where the wild things are. And, um, I got that that collaboration was so amazing. It was so fun. So he came on and he was just supposed to come on for this project. And he just kind of like, that was it. He never left. He became the design director for the brand. And we did everything together for a decade. And then, you know, once I sold the company, he, you know, he went off to explore other things, you know, painting, illustration, photography, but we still kept working together.

34:14You know, he was shooting for the brand all the time and I had been wanting for years to create a tarot deck and I originally was working on it with someone else and it wasn't going well and Chris was just like let me do it like and I and there was a part like to be honest I had been wanting Chris to do it But like, I just, we just had been, you know, we kind of like just had, he had just left Pamela Love. And I didn't want to be like, hey, do you want to do this giant project with me that's going to take five years of your life? but when he said I'll take this giant project that's going to take five years of my life I was like amazing because you you and I share a brain we literally shared an office for a decade like we our walls were like plastered in our inspiration and just like my team at that point was like we were all best friends and we were all it was so much creative synergy and so he and I were just we just had such a good time on this.

35:20It was a lot of work. And we're both, you know, true creatives. And, you know, we're not good at sticking to schedules. And, you know, but we, you know, we somehow made it, we we worked together to, you know, kind of create the ideas for these cards. He executed them so beautifully. And, you know, there's elements of the Pamela Love brand in it, obviously. But then it's also like elements of other things, elements of things that were inspiring to both him and I for years that maybe felt outside of the Pamela Love brand. So we didn't bring them in. Yeah. Why do you why did you want to do this? It's like when, what's your relationship to tarot?

36:08So when I was 14, I got a tarot deck and a book on tarot. My mom was sending me to camp. I didn't want to go. It was like, you know, one of those camps where you're like in another state living in a cabin. And right before I left, my mom took me to Borders and she was like, okay, get some books, you know, for camp. and I got a tarot deck and a book on tarot. I got the Rider-Waite-Smith deck, which is kind of like the most widely used deck. And I just fell in love with it. I fell in love with the imagery. I fell in love with the history of tarot. I fell in love with the way you can use it as a tool for introspection.

36:56Even at that age, I really felt that. And at camp, it became a great tool because I became like very popular because everyone wanted me to read their cards. Yeah. So like I would normally say that I would have been like a weirdo outsider, but I had tarot cards and I knew how to read them. So I was, it was like a novelty, I guess. So what do you use them for? Like what in your life? Because I actually just, I just did a session with someone that one of our mutual friends recommended for an hour that was like tarot and also other stuff. And it felt like a big therapy session. I was like, maybe I could need to stop with therapy for a while.