Red Hot & Behind the Seams

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2:33Hello and welcome to Fashion People. I'm Lauren Sherman, writer of Puck's Fashion and Beauty Memo Line Sheet. And today with me on the show are the costume designers from four of the most important movies of the season. Wicked for Good's Paul Tazwell, Hamnets Malgosia Terzanska, Frankenstein's Kate Hawley, and Sinner's Ruth E. Carter.

2:58Before we get going, I wanted to remind you that if you like this podcast, you'll definitely love Puck, where I send an email called Line Sheet. If you're a fashion person, you get that reference. it's an original look at what's really going on inside the fashion and beauty industries line sheet is scoopy analytical and above all fun along with me a subscription to puck gains you access to an unmatched roster of experts reporting on powerful people and companies in entertainment media sports politics finance the art world and much more if you're interested listeners of fashion people get a discount.

3:34Just go to puck.news slash fashion people to join puck or start a free trial.

3:44Happy Friday, everyone, and happy Thanksgiving. I'm recording this very early in the week because of the holiday. If there's breaking news, maybe I'll change this, but probably not because we all need a day off. Speaking of, line sheet was lights out yesterday. I've never done that before on Thanksgiving. Very exciting. I'm enjoying my time off, sort of. I'm definitely enjoying my time in Northern California. I love dressing up for no other reason than dressing up and eating stuffing. It's really good. But now we are back and Sarah Shapiro has organized Line Sheet's annual guide to gift guides.

4:23So here's the thing about gift guides. They're very difficult to get right. most people don't get them right most people are lazy it's a challenge it's a skill and I highly recommend using our list as sort of a primary text uh pros gift guide pros that I really love include my friends Claire and Erica who no longer make gift guides but also adjacent to them their publicist Caitlin Phillips everybody's she's the world's publicist she has an entire sub stack called Gift Guide. She is really good at it. As good of a writer and editor as she is a publicist. It's pretty miraculous. I love all the airmail gift guides.

5:05And generally, our puck gift guides are great. Our Guide to Mirth and Merriment is very fun. I recommended The Eastern Gate, an incredibly good Polish spy thriller that if you love the Bureau des Légendes, you will love this. Please don't make fun of my French accent. And check all that out. And my many scoops by signing up for Puck. I really do love Thanksgiving. And I hope you enjoy this talk with this year's top costume designers. It took place a few weeks ago in LA at the Oscars edition of Puck's Stories of the Season event. And they were amazing. One of them is definitely going to win. I hope you have a great time listening.

5:51Please join me in welcoming Malgosia Terzanska, Ruth E. Carter, Paul Tazwell, and Kate Hawley to the stage.

6:07Thank you all so much for being here. Hello. I feel like you all could just have a discussion and me not even interrupt. So the first thing I want to talk about is the color red. I knew you were going to ask that. Did you really? Why did you think that? Because it seems to be the common denominator. It really is. And it also, I just rewatched In the Mood for Love, and obviously it's such an important costume movie and that color is important. but is it the most important color in costuming? And why do you all think, I can call on you, but also feel free to jump in, why do you all think it was the common denominator in your films this year?

7:04It's a hungry color, Guillermo would say. It's all about what red. I love red in period, like how you use it in the 50s and how you use it in the 30s is just really, I don't know, that's how I find that I tend to use it. In West Side Story, I used it a lot. In Wicked, I reserved using it because I wanted for the poppies to resonate. So Mrs. Throp is red. The poppies on the wizard's dressing gown are red. But there's not a whole lot more that is red-red. Well, it's also the ruby slippers, obviously. They're not ruby, but it's interesting that it is still an important color, even if it's not there.

8:05Yeah. And then for us, it was the living blood, the living pumping blood. and then lack of that life in my movie. But I think it's the contrast of the border between life and death in this vibrant, vibrant red. Yeah, it also is a grounding color. It directs your eye. It gives composition. When you see the masters and you see their paintings, you see their use of red. and they're very intentional about where red lands. And I think for all of the beautiful work that's here today amongst these costume designers, red was used very intentionally. I mean, it's the color of passion, it's the color of fire, it's the color of blood, but it also grounds a piece.

9:01It adds a nice balance to the composition. It directs your eye. For Kate and Malgosia in particular, I noticed that there were some really strong colors, red being one, but also blue and green against a more faded background. Ruth and Paul, I feel like it's a little different for you all. And I promise this isn't going to just be like a color history thing, but this is what I'm interested in. But curious how you all balance that in, because there were the red dresses in both of your films that were so important well the the blue and the green for me it was yes to balance out the the main character or they are both main characters but to balance out this like powerhouse of a of a woman um but also i loved his connection to water his connection or will's connection to the to the river and we see him processing his emotions and his grief a few times in the movie by either swimming or having a dialogue with the water.

10:10It kind of came in that way and also did a nice yin and yang with her redness. We sort of drew on the greens and particularly in Elizabeth's world, they're opposite on the color wheel to the reds in Victor's world. Again, we went to the natural world as inspiration, but it took on a sort of radioactive quality It was representative of iridescence of beetles and nature at its most intense and visceral. So it's interesting that we both came from a natural place but in different kinds of elevation. And red always heightens all of those colours. We had different kinds of reds and the same with the green.

10:53So it's all the levels of colour and the values of the colours that you have that heighten everything that we use. I'd say the contrast in our color palette is very different, but they're still from the same world.

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12:13You all are kind of coming at this, obviously Wicked is not technically like a story, is not a period film, but there is like a history there. How much are you all looking at the historical clothing and actually using that directly versus looking at it and sort of brushing it away and starting from another? Because you all were dealing with period pieces in a sense, but also things that have a lot of IP or are brand new in their own world as well? Well, I think that we all like push the boundaries, that storytelling gives you the freedom to do that. Ryan Coogler builds a world. He allows you to bring in the artistry into that world, but also the storytelling aspect of it allows you to sort of push the boundaries with whether it's your color palette or whether it's the choices that you made, the backstory for your characters.

13:17And all of that adds to the periodness of it all. But I don't think any of us want to go outside of the period. I think it's important to keep the context going and keep the audience engaged in the time and place. What was tricky about Wicked is, as you said, I mean it is it's a fantasy what I was hoping that the design would do is to embrace all of the culture of the Wizard of Oz characters through the Wizard of Oz and the Wiz and Wicked and you know just all the iterations that we've seen and honor all of that world so that then the audience could relate to engage with our films in kind of a modern way.

14:12So I'm using period as a visceral touchstone or an emotional touchstone. Like Elphaba is based on Victoriana morning clothing and then translated into a fantasy point of view. Glinda is Dior 1950s Audrey Hepburn that is then made into you know a you know a fantasy character so it's you know and yes suggestive of Billy Burke in as Glinda in the 1939 film you know it was even Elphaba's clothes that this silhouette was from the 1939 film, but then it was translated into this power figure. So I'm definitely researching and thinking about silhouette as it relates to specific periods and then making use of that collective relationship to the period in order to say something about the characters.

15:18I also felt that your work in particular in this movie felt very connected to modern fashion as well. both of their looks felt of the time so that's a tricky balance of trying to honor all of those different things and then also make it feel like it could be today as well well I mean and in line with that you know it's like so many Hollywood musicals you know even The Wizard of Oz where it very much looks like a 1930s film you know it's the silhouettes they're using what their real time is 1930s. If you look at Hello, Dolly, it feels very 70s even though it's turn of the century. So I think that it's just in the spirit of Hollywood musicals as well.

16:17Is the process to do this longer if you're dealing with something that's new, a new story. So the three of you were all working off of something. Kate, a novel, so not as obviously Melgosia, many, many iterations. But Ruth, for you, it was a completely new story. You've worked with Ryan Coogler many times. But do you feel like you were more involved in this because it was entirely new. I feel very connected to African American history. And I think that, you know, I actually forgot that we were telling a story about vampires, actually. I really wanted to tell the story of the Great Migration and the Mississippi Delta and the blues.

17:08And I really focused on the people during that time and what actually happened in the Delta and how they survived and how they made something out of nothing. I mean, I love that story. And yes, it was an original script. It really was a collaboration with Ryan and Autumn, you know, to just, you know, keep the dialogue going about, like, you know, how we transition from this American story to this horror story. And yeah, and so I just really kept the people. I just really, I really got into the people and the details of how they lived and where they were living and, you know, how they evolved. Okay, bringing a novel to life that hasn't been realised on screen before, what was that experience like with Chloe?

17:57Well, there's been a few iterations, you know, if you look at the, you know, the 1930s Frankenstein, you know, there are iterations out there. Of course, I didn't have that world. You talk to Mike and Jacob and Guillermo and all they talk about is James Whale and the bolts in the neck, you know, and I wasn't familiar with that interpretation. I was back in the world of Mary Shelley and the romanticism. But those elements, you know, I read the novel before tackling this piece with Guillermo, and there were themes that had come through from the novel into the script. But of course, it's through Guillermo's viewpoint, his point of view.

18:33So then the imagery, particularly being Mexican, religion, mythology, you know, but again, bound by nature, which you see in the novel. And also, responding to the script, there's still the qualities that are there, the sense of melancholy, great loneliness, the layers of memories through the creature, but also the rest of the storytelling from Victor's point of view and from the creature's point of view. And so a lot of the response was about creating the mood of what Guillermo wrote, which also linked us to the novel. So a lot of it was about creating that sense of memory and And, you know, using, although we had the historical silhouette, using that as a canvas for all these other themes that led the visual dialogue.

19:18And, of course, that's within collaboration with everybody else, you know, what Tamara was doing with the set. And because we all work so closely, like I'm sure everybody does here in their departments, you can't be alone in this world. You have to answer to an overall picture, and it's not complete just with your character. So all those themes were answered throughout every department. Yeah, and I met Malgosia Hamnet. I didn't take my beta blocker. Sorry, everybody. Yes, so Kate Frankenstein, Malgosia Hamnet, apologies. But so for you, you were doing a similar thing, taking something from an already known, but yours had never come to life before.

20:00Yeah, and what freed me, obviously we have these historical figures, but what kind of freed me was A, Chloe saying we are not trying to do a museum piece. Thank you. And also the fact that the images that we have of Shakespeare were created after his death. So it was an adaptation of sorts anyway. so it made it easier to just start from scratch and kind of start from the interiority of those characters and build them from the inside out. We did keep the earring, and that's about it. And then researching the period, I wanted to make sure that I am literate in it and that I know when I'm straying away from it.

20:43But because there's so many incredible Elizabethan details and objects and shapes and so on. What we did is we took things like slashing, the pinking of fabrics, and we used them kind of as an emotional tool, showing especially Will's emotional progression through the movie, and just little bits and bobs like that that kind of made sense for our particular story. But I wanted to make sure that it's staying true to chloe's vision of just portraying these two incredible people and their first their incredible love story and then gradually them going through the tragedy and somehow finding a way towards each other in the end so good so good so good new markdowns up to 70 off are at nordstrom rack

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22:33You all have worked with the people that you worked with on these movies before. How important is it, the relationship with the director versus the relationship with the actors? And how is that different? So actually, that was my first time with everyone on this movie. And I wanted to be forever because they were unbelievable. and you know Jesse and Paul just outstanding outstanding people but the whole team Fiona Crombie the production designer and Luca Jal the DP it just felt like we are we were like a mushroom that we were like kind of growing together and understanding the world together and it was so organic and so beautiful that I've never had an experience that was that organic and that strong so I'm super grateful for it.

23:25Yeah, and I think relationships are important to the success of the creative process. So it starts at the top, and for us, Ryan was such a family man and such a good person. He had that effect on everyone, so he was always immersing us with each other, and Hannah Buechler is the production designer and Autumn and all of us shared a lot but he was very interested and that I think creates an open relationship where creativity can flow and so we were like a family the actors really trusted him and therefore his guidance and his notes to us came with the trust of auteur. So I think that that's a really key element to making maybe not always the best film, but it's a key element to good relationships and good film building, storytelling.

24:38I would agree with Ruth. Exactly. John set a tone for our production. like no other really. Did you map out everything for both films prior? We did at the same time. We had what we lovingly called the war room, which was our design space. And it was a shared space where we had costume sketches lining a whole side of this four-sided room. Nathan had all of his on the other three. And then the tables in the center were, you know, they had the models for all the different scenes because we were building so much. Because it was all about world building. So that kind of sandbox was really, you know, it was rare for me and a privilege to be invited into that because it became a safe space to offer up ideas, to throw things around, to really, you know, understand what it was that we were trying to achieve.

25:52and then we would invite producers in and you know and present whatever it was and then with the the actors I mean that it was imperative but also integral to my process folding them into what my design was you know because you know I always say that you know I I can't design in a vacuum and also I'm relying on these actors to bring my work to life so they have to buy into it in order for it to be successful we have to be able to have a dialogue and so much came from them being cast in those roles and what they brought to their performances that it was necessary that I follow suit and really sculpt around them yeah okay Kate, what about you and Guillermo?

26:47Well, I think there's very similar experiences that link us all. It's a process. I mean, Guillermo was very clear on the vision, but it was always an open door. All of us could have access to him. Take as much time as you like in the prep, and then when the train leaves the station, you'd better be on it. But the door was always open on set, and this was the first time I'd experienced this with Guillermo. He'd come every day, and we'd be by the monitor. We'd have a meeting so everyone knew what the plan was or if things changed. but also he shared with us his edit. We were actually allowed to go and sit in the editing suite and see what he'd cut.

27:21And that's really... I've never had that happen to me before. And you can start to see the shape of things that are happening, how he and Dan are framing the pictures, the language of that. You understand what your performers are doing. To be able to see that, especially when you're rushing back to build the next thing or the next bunch of things. So it was really crucial to do that. And, you know, he often refers to us as his legs of his table. It's a big table, I think. And, you know, we're all his lieutenants. You know, I'm speaking of Tamara and Dan and myself and Mike. So we're all informed.

27:58But we all share that between us as well. So whatever we share with Guillermo, we make sure our colleagues understand that as well. And then there's just the normal, you know, I put everything like Paul up in my workroom. I have fabric samples. I put everything that Tamara's doing. Dan came over and set up a lighting test so that we could work with candlelight and develop all our textiles and patterns. But also it meant that my entire crew understood the direction and shape and vision of what Guillermo was doing. And that meant they were then informed when we were making decisions that would support everything that was happening.

28:34And Guillermo would come through the workroom when he could and stop at the tables. He particularly loved stopping at Lorene's table, our milliner. And would love the craft of what people were doing. And that goes a long way in a big production. So I think it's very collaborative. He's definitely leading the vision, but we're all allowed to participate in that. And the same with the actors. Actually, it was a big lesson in Ego, too. We had first fittings. And I'm used to having a bit of private space. We'll do the measuring. And it's all very formal. But no Gemma came charging in. The Oscars children came in.

29:10the lighting, the cameraman, there was hair and makeup, there was Oscar's family in its entirety and I went, oh this is a grounding thing, this is like, let's open the play box and get off your high spot for a bit and it was a great lesson and talking about how the actors developing the work with them, Jacob came in cold, very little time and Mike had this huge burden of doing all this work within nine weeks but watching how you know what they bring to it there's what they bring to it as their themselves as a person then their ideas of an actor might be different from mine and then there's the alchemy with director and everybody together the discovery of movement and physicality I often work from the inside out you know I don't start with an external sketch we're doing gestures and looking at movement and and supporting that and being prepared to sort of give up your lollies for the sake of a better story you know it was a big lesson in that we don't have much more time but I am curious is there like one hero look or piece from each of these films that you feel like you're the most proud of or that it sort of represents everything that you worked on Ruth maybe we can start with you oh why me first Because I wanted to mix it up and not go down the aisle.