Stop Copying Me!

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1:50Hello and welcome to Fashion People. I'm Lauren Sherman, writer of Puck's fashion and beauty memo line sheet. And today with me on the show is stylist, writer, and handbag lover, Becky Malinsky. We're talking about Celine and Phoebe Philo's latest drops, wedding suits, Zara as a fashion brand, Totes and so much more Happy Tuesday everyone Hope you are having a great week I am in Los Angeles for Hermes On Thursday, Xenia on Friday And going to see Belle and Sebastian With my college BFFs Shout out to Pam and Phil on Friday night Very excited that I'm back to Paris But it's really been nice to be here Lauren Collins from The New Yorker Who is based in Paris Is also in town this week So we're going to do a little drinks thing tonight which will be fun and I'm gonna see a lot of my favorites not everyone but I'll be back this summer so excited to see you if I don't see you this time uh it's also really nice I'm staying across the street from one of my very good friends hopefully he doesn't mind me saying that Scott Sternberg who you probably know Band of Outsiders entire world he's been on the podcast and he I'm staying across the street from him in a house it's amazing it's like was so lucky lucky for me but he had a little memorial service for his very famous dog Zod who passed away he was 12 years old a couple of weeks ago and Zod was like such a big part of Scott's brands and also just everyone loves him so much so I was really happy that I was like oh yeah I'm across the street can I come over and he was like actually I'm doing a memorial for Zod so it's really nice and I don't know there's like a lot of people I know whose dogs my dog passed away a couple of of months ago.

3:32It's like just a lot of that happening. But then you hear about Katie Grand has a new Hungarian Vizsla, which I grew up with a Hungarian Vizsla, so we bonded over that, but called Bunny, who she texted me this morning. Apparently, he likes to listen to fashion people. So hi, Bunny. Anyway, that's a little bit of a divergence. I know you didn't expect that I'd be a person to anthropomorphize my pets but but I am anyway this week in line sheet I discussed the business of being Pharrell and Malik's got an update on Quince where Pharrell is an investor and I've got intel on how Jason Bolden started styling Josh O 'Connor which has been blowing up my text aka Amanda Dobbins who's very into into it but it's been interesting to hear about how that happened behind the scenes because Josh has such you know he was working with Harry Lambert forever has amazing style so read about that line sheet and Rachel has essential essay lotter intel and there's always more I hope to see you around this week but again if I don't I'll be back in the summer that's it let's get going with Becky

4:42Becky Malinsky welcome back to fashion people morning Lauren thanks for having me go Knicks Go Knicks. Are the Knicks still in? Oh, my God, yes. And the city is electric, and it's so wonderful. You know, can I just tell you the only sports team I've ever cared about is the New York Knicks from 1994 to 1996 or 1993 to 1997 or so. Well, perfect time to be back in America. I really feel bad for, like, John Starks and Patrick Ewing and Bill Cartwright. All my guys, I think Bill Cartwright was on the Knicks and the Bulls. Don't quote me on that. I'm not going to protect. But I was really into basketball for like three years because I played basketball.

5:30So I was like very into it. Yeah. Please. I was tall. Okay. Well, anyway, I shouldn't be talking about this. But I'm excited for everybody that the Knicks are good. Me too. It's nice. I really don't have any affinity for sports though at this point. Well, the weirdest thing is that it's the World Cup in New York. Oh, yeah. I have no concept of soccer or football. So apparently there's like traffic and hysteria, but everyone seems to be more focused on the Knicks, obviously. It was funny because I was in Paris on Saturday and there was the sort of, I guess, the some championship. We should look it up.

6:09And Paris and Saint-Germain won. Great. It's championships league, maybe. We can't be experts on everything. It was basically the Super Bowl of football. And I was out at dinner. My husband was very worried. He took our kid to go see it. And he was like, I just think it's going to be crazy. And I went out to dinner with some friends. And I was really worried we weren't going to be able to get a seat at this place that doesn't take reservations. and in the end I mean everybody was at places to watch it so we were able to eat and enjoy it and then when I was walking home like around 11 this was like 11 11 30 oh it was so fun to see these people in the street just going nuts over this stuff but it was like in an area of town that's not so crazy that it would be annoying like I enjoyed it and also it was a 15 minute walk home so it was fine but yeah it's fun it's fun when the weather is good and this stuff happens I'm very happy for the city of Paris that their team won and I'm very happy for the New York Knicks I don't know any of the players names these days it's fine John Starks forever okay okay Becky yes so it's a weird news week there wasn't there wasn't like a lot of major stuff that has happened in the past week.

7:33I guess it's because it's summer, but there's a lot of shopping going on. I wanted to talk to you about what we've been discussing this morning, which was Phoebe Philo. First drop of collection E. What are you, what are you thinking? I, I immediately, the first image is this, it's, it's a woman in a pair of like little silk shorts, which I cannot find on the site. I'm sure they're there somewhere. And then also these shoes that don't seem to be live yet. The little pump. I mean, I must get these. You must have those. A mutual friend was texting with Jen Brill, who apparently also needs them. And I just texted her, but it's school runtime.

8:20So she hasn't responded, but I don't see them on the website yet. Do you see them? I do not. Okay. So what are you looking at? What are you thinking? Why do you do you I have a feeling a lot of stuff in this collection is going to sell out. I mean, this email came at maybe a good time, maybe a terrible time because I could not focus on prepping for this podcast because the new arrival came out. What prepping do you need to do, Becky? I don't know. I just got nervous like 10 minutes before, I guess. But I really want the green flip flops. Yeah. But I was also considering those Mew Mew flip flops.

8:56So now I'm like, I cannot buy both two designer flip flops. That is so tragic. what are the i gotta decide they're like they have a nice tan base and they come in a rubbery it comes like rubbery leather oh yeah they're nice yellow or white they're nice i think i think that the phoebe ones are gonna be more comfortable because these are really flat and they're special i don't know these are quite nice quite nice too love that that white canvas tote is gonna look so good beat up can we just talk about though i need to i promise the other another one of my text chains rachel and a person who shall remain remain all know if we're on instagram pardon who will all know come the topic if we're on instagram yeah this person was like i said i'm gonna get the white canvas bag i need a carry-all for paris because i need something that's not sweaty.

9:55I'm going to bring back my dragon diffusion bag from LA, but I need a sweaty thing that I, a thing that's not going to be sweaty to hold my laptop when I, when I go around. And they said, I said, I need to carry off for Paris. Rachel, no, it's a scrap of canvas. 450 exclamation point. If this was gap, you would never, never buy euros. And then the third party who, who will name remain i don't know why i can't say that it's very earlier remain anonymous just puts a popcorn i said ha ha ha okay rachel ha ha ha ha but i need a bag rachel you're better than this that's not sweaty becky telling me yes and rachel says i'm confident in your abilities to find one it's llb with a pocket we've all lost our minds and there we have i said but llb doesn't have a pocket and lm is not this crisp of a white i i really like this white and i like the way the square looks but this person says he doesn't like this one for different reasons i'm revealing it's a man you're still not going to get who it is i said i don't know guys i like it we'll think on it and then rachel asked me to write about it and i said i'll talk about it and what they said was they like a non-luxury canvas toke with a luxury handbag so like i have that little phoebe I got for my for an advanced birthday present it's a little suede which I guess I am gonna have to start doing this as as a um I got the suede it's called the glove pochette in black suede yeah which is awesome it's been like an amazing bag for for it's a great it's like the bag that I've been wanting which is like a bag you take to lunch and you take to dinner and it's it's fabulous but they were saying that they prefer like an LL beam with an Hermes trim or Rachel carries her gig bag with her puck LL beam like that combo and to not get a designer cotton thing but I really like the kind of I like the way you said it's crisp and the the sharpness of it yeah and the pocket looks like almost puffy it's really good I don't know I love it okay I want to talk about another canvas bag but but what were you going to say this is the canvas bag I thought you were going to bring up before which which one the Pacific oh yeah yeah no I do want to talk about the Pacific tote so I do own the Pacific tote I own the very large style Pacific tote in multi-color limited edition that has a zip that's really good for taking to the pool.

12:45But I also use it as my carry on when I travel these days. I just find it to be easy. Before we get into it, I think the best canvas carry on tote is this one from J.Crew that's like a gardening tote. And they had made it as a collab with the New Yorker a couple of years ago. It has like, it has six exterior pockets. So when you're with the kid like a wipes a water bottle and then and but it was chic and now this summer they just came out with it with like lots of great looking weathered like bean colors highly recommend yeah love the the pockets i want to talk more about the pacific tote drama on social media thanks to nomi fry who's created created it um with with reason but um is there anything else from the Phoebe for sure.

13:40I just think what I will say is because you were saying you're you're trying to buy a club loafer. I think a lot of this stuff's going to sell out. I just have there. It was too immediate of a reaction from all my shopping friends. Also, the the bikini top and bottom seem great because it's like a fold down bikini. And so it's adjustable and you can like hide what you want. I'm not getting it. Don't worry. It's not for me, but for other people, maybe? I'm struggling with that. If you have any boobs at all that top is not going to work. The color is so hard to wear unless you already have a nice glow.

14:18They have it in stucco also. Those colors I like to wear unless you already are. I love the little scooped one piece too but that's a bodysuit. Maybe I should get that for summers. Is there anything else in the Phoebe before we move on to pacific tote we can move on we can move on okay it looks good though also the pull on pants she did like a easy pant version it's 600 euro it's gonna this stuff's gonna sell like nut nutty it's gonna be really interesting anyway moving on the pacific tote is this little company that's like somehow adjacent to roman coppola or the Coppola's overall like one of the Coppola's part owns it it is operated out of the same office that Roman Coppola's business or I don't know is his business the director's bureau Chris Chang works at the director's bureau and it's somehow I believe it is Roman Coppola's anyway Chris Chang friend of of of the pod I guess is how you would say it but anyway Pacific Toe Company is like a very fun if you work in Hollywood and you live on the east side or are you know think you're cool you might have one I this is why I have one because I'm not cool but I think I am or I don't you know I want to be cool whatever no they're cool no it's really cute they're just really nicely nice nice totes and I feel like you're supporting a small business so Nomi Fry who's very good friends with chris chang and friends with everyone because she's a lovely human being she posted that the wonderful brand j press that was recently the guy who used to do running rowing blazers became the creative director he they made basically a full-on knockoff of the the pacific tote tote um and no me posted and was like this kind of blows i guess my question for you and i'll i'll say say how what i really think about it but when this kind of stuff happens where like one company blatantly copies another like how mad are you do you think there's a point in being mad?

16:40Do you think that imitation is the sincerest form of flattery? Like, how do you feel about it? I think it's tough when it is so exact. Yeah. And when it's a small business. So when I saw that, the first thing I thought of, did you see recently that Wilson knocked off Spence's ad campaign for, so Spence did this ad campaign where they filled an entire vintage red car with tennis balls. It's very cute. Wilson literally took the same idea and did a pop-up at Merci in Paris with the concept. And it's really tough when it's a big brand that has, you know, private equity backing, doing this to a small brand.

17:27And it's so much harder. I mean, it's weirdly easy to get away with, but it's harder to get away with because you can get called out so easily. So I don't know. It just it gives me an ick. It makes me not want to support the copying brand, which is tough and sad, I guess. I don't know. I think it's icky and it makes me want to support the small brand. Yeah. Look, so I reposted Nomi probably because I was highly emotional getting off of a 12-hour flight or a 10-hour flight and you know I had watched Hamnet I had just finished Hamnet so I posted immediately because I had mine I was like this is so dumb look here's here's the thing generally I I used to work at this publication called Fashionista which is still still up and running shout out to Donnie my former intern and current editor-in-chief of Fashionista Donnie Mao I would say we used to have this thing called Adventures in Copyright that Farron Krenzel the first editor of fashionista originated it was a really awesome column where we would like post a photo of a new thing and a photo of an old thing and there were we we changed some things like there would be brands that would pull stuff i remember i believe it was pamela love with a with a luxury brand maybe chanel but honestly i think it was chanel like they chanel didn't make the the bracelet or something like something like that happened this is 15 years ago the thing I would say is my feeling is nothing is original everything is a copy of a copy and what you start to get into like Target knocking off sporty and rich is that actually bad for sporty and rich I don't know like I don't know if those kinds of things actually matter in terms of sales and when you think about would all these luxury brands be as big if Canal Street didn't exist i don't know i think that it exposes people to new things that being said the reason that this bothers me is because j press is a great brand j press does not need to copy pacific tote company they have decades of archives of amazing products that they could be re redoing and so and look like it isn't patchworking a canvas tote with like blocked color it's not like the most original idea in the world but it's very clear they also the the logo looks from from afar looks similar I just think I'm not a lawyer I don't know if there's anything that Pacific Tote Company could do anyway but i think the bigger thing is j press needs to make great stuff and they should be mining what they have which is incredible and instead of like this just feels like a a bit of a a two like when when high sport gets knocked yeah when high sport gets knocked off to me it just says that high sport makes great pants high sports pants are still the best ones They fit the best.

20:44They don't make you look dumpy like the rest of them do. It's annoying, but I think like high sport can rise above. In this case, I just don't think this needed to happen. There's probably many other alternatives. The brands feel too similar in brand identity, maybe. And it's not a target knocking it off. It's a small brand knocking off another small brand. So you would hope that they have a bit more integrity. Yeah, I think that's part of it. But yes, I think that that is part of it. It's not like all those high sport pants that came that were never going to be as good as the high sport. This is like the same customer.

21:21In a totally different price point. Yeah. Yeah. Like what would have been really cool is actually for J-Press to collaborate with Pacific Tote. Like that's what they should have done. So anyway, Pacific Tote is really great. I love it. I think the style section should like do a profile of it or something but it's I love this is honestly the I'm I'm pretty it's pretty tough for me to find stuff like this for some reason and it's been and you can get them on Poshmark there's a really cute one right now for 125 so go for it support Pacific Tote and oh it's interesting I google Pacific Tote and the J Press one comes up as the third shopping search.

22:10Also, Los Angeles Apparel has a really good cotton bag, which maybe I'll just get that instead of getting the Phoebe one. Great. Do it. Wow. It's really good. I just bought a vintage Hermes, those canvas little portfolios. Oh, amazing. Yeah. From what's the one in Brooklyn? Front Street General. Love Front Street General. Yeah. So that's a good option too. So good.

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24:43One more bag I wanted to talk to you about. The Celine Calico paisley mixed print which again speaking of brand making a bag from another brand but this is but how is this different let's talk about how this is different yeah so the bag that can you describe the bag we're referring to i don't even know if it's on sale yet but it's definitely sold out what even if it's not on sale because which actually brings us which let's bookmark talking about the pre-order economy um it was they they put it on instagram and it was like it's these calico patchwork big weekend bags that are reminiscent of a old-fashioned vera bradley bag but feels really refreshed and rejuvenated in the color combination and the fabric choices and it just looked really fun like everyone freaked out i had clients text me being like do think I can get this bag I can ask Michael Ryder's use of the right purple and purple and red together because purple is I would say my no offense to my wonderful wonderful mother-in-law Susan I love her um she's my number one of our parents no offense to any of the other ones but Anyway, she loves purple and I am just, I, it's a real tough color for me, but I, Michael Ryder's purple is the perfect purple and the way, way he pairs it with the red is so.

26:18You know why? Wait, let me pull up. I think it's because it has undertones of blue. It's not like a fuchsia. He doesn't use a fuchsia purple. He uses like a collegiate purple. It's just. Yes. It's so good. It's so good. So let's talk a bit about, so I think this bag is amazing. I love the way they use the Celine logo. Again, this was another thing. I ended up writing a whole item on it because I was just like, this is awesome. And I also feel like Vera Bradley is back in the water. To me, it really does have like a very, and Vera Bradley is from Indiana. So it made more sense to me. You could really think of it as being like preppy East Coast, but it has like a very mid-Atlantic vibe.

27:00and these other bags. What are those other bags that I actually have a bunch of that are French? Longchamp? No, they are color-blocked. Hervé Chapellier. Yes, Hervé Chapellier. It's the same era of these bags were popular with teenage girls and sorority girls. I never had either of them growing up, and I didn't really know about Hervé Chapellier. Vera Bradley was around indefinitely in college. But what was your experience? Did you have these bags in Minnesota? Were you, was this part of your, did you play lacrosse? They did not have lacrosse in Minnesota when I was growing up. Really? It was not a thing yet.

27:41After basketball, I moved on to lacrosse. In high school, I did lacrosse. Go Timberwolves. I'm pretty sure they're out already. I, my cousin studied abroad who was three years older than me and brought me back a Hervé Chapelleur. I had not heard of it, but then when I got to Wisconsin freshman year of college and had one it was like i was in with the in crowd because all the east coast girls had them yes so i was very grateful to my cousin allison shout out for bringing that back i think i still have it it was black with like a periwinkle base i have a periwinkle base one that's so good yeah with like a weird brown but i want to what's curious to me is like this is luxury brand pulling from like a more well-priced brand and why does that feel more okay and how is that different from like remember Balenciaga doing the Ikea bags it's sort of like where do we decide what's okay and what's not it's so interesting okay so this is not a direct copy so that's the the main thing it's not a direct copy like you you would never think this was a Vera Bradley bad although I will tell you we wouldn't but honestly people might you know i will tell you once i did i went to meet it wasn't an interview i went to me when i was a freelancer i went to meet an editor at the new york times this person will remain nameless uh-huh it's so good though so i go to meet her to talk about story ideas and i was like this i'm never gonna write for this person she's just not it's not we're not vibing and we leave and I had a Celine trio in red that I still own that's like such a great little bag and she says I love your Shinola bag and I was like I gotta leave like thank you so much thank you but it's a it's kind of a thing of like yes you're right there might be some people I don't know I think the Celine bag is is different enough that like someone would be like oh that kind of that looks like is that a vera bradley they got really nice or something but i think the biggest difference is it's not an exact copy and and also it's a mass market item that's being reinterpreted in a different way so like we also don't get mad at um i i think there are examples of this on like everybody copies look at the trim the Hermes trim everybody's copied that nobody's mad at anyone for copying that I mean that's like Hermes is almost direct competitors copying it but still like I think that that is when you're when you're it's a different market and you there is a real reinterpretation it totally makes sense like the Pacific totes are definitely reinterpretations of L.L.

30:37Bean bags or and I'm sure L.L. Bean is the, I think it's that it's not, it's not a full on direct copy. And also because you assume maybe not correctly, but that a luxury bag is going to be made with better materials and things or, or like with, with Balenciaga Ikea, that to me is like, you're buying into this like kind of concept and that's like almost like a piece of art. I think, too, there's a sense of irony that comes with it, a sense of humor that works when this designer who has this great idea puts it out into the ether. I think where it gets tricky is that at these price points, the way people are wearing it can become tragic more quickly when it becomes just designer on designer on designer.

31:29And there's no understanding of that irony. It's kind of funny. well I think and I think the reason that the Celine bag because I don't I would have never ever in the whole my whole wide world ever carried a Vera Bradley no me neither and I love the Celine one same agreed I don't think I would buy the Celine one just because I don't can't buy everything in the entire world especially if I'm buying it I'm not gonna buy the Phoebe toe I'm gonna I'm gonna get this Los Angeles apparel thing instead but um that could be controversial but um I think it it doesn't matter because what what someone like Phoebe Philo or Michael Ryder or any of these designers who make like Simone's Clark the hood shoe or whatever like it's a similar thing it doesn't matter if you don't get the context because there's some it's it's so good that someone someone just knows that it's good they may not have all the but when you do the research who was I talking to I was talking to a designer or photographer or something about this on a recent podcast that may not have run yet but it was basically like if you do the research then the work is better so you have to do a lot of research and then the work is better and I think like the reason all these things work even though they're just like reinterpretations of other stuff is because the work went into it beforehand and when the work doesn't go into it you can feel it yeah and it doesn't matter if you're not like educated on this stuff so i think yeah look like if they made too many saline saline these saline bags could it end up feeling ubiquitous and we'll all be disappointed sure but like it's fine it's fashion that happens and selene is not making a lot of each thing yet it feels like the special i agree like there was that it's still if you know you know for sure yes and it's hard and it's still hard to get certain piece like certain pieces that are you know less commercialized for the store yes yeah and i think this next collection we went we had a beautiful day at the showroom together it was so special but we went to the reesee together and i was like i need these shoes i i want to get the black trench with the plaid it's incredible underneath yeah i'm definitely gonna get that but but um the suit oh my god yeah the suit the suit i will not get because i have enough i have so many black jackets at this point like it's I kind of need the suit I think you should I kind of think the suit is gonna be my fall uniform I love it I'm gonna I'm gonna get the black trench for sure but yeah I think what I saw was honestly the best transition from designer to designer has been at Celine and maybe that's because they have their CEO Severin has been there since Phoebe and she's really good and has been has managed it but like there is a customer who shopped all three I shopped all three I actually maybe I never bought a Hedy Selene thing, but I like appreciated it.

34:48Like Samira Nassar. I always think of like she definitely bought all three. It was a good. A good transition from from Hedy to Michael. But but yeah, it's. I feel like they were able to keep the wardrobing proposition while having unique ideas. Exactly. And not everyone's able to do that. Exactly. I just got some intel. Oh, Celine from a good source. Celine starting to turn up. So it's working. Great. Another LVMH brand that I really love. I'm not going to say numbers apparently tanking. I'll have to get more intel on that one. But happy to share that from a source. Celine starting to turn up as we speak.

35:40Oh, incredible. That's awesome. I just bought the jeans, the number two, like, carrot jean. Should I get we have totally different bodies? Probably not. No. No. Should I get different? Really? You know what I will say? It was a very strange experience buying them, though, because in the store, like, I like my clothes to fit big. I like them to fit sort of the way they fit on the runway in interesting proportions. and I think it's going to be an as proportions change the most interesting thing is seeing how that transition to the store because in the store they were like no no no it runs big you really need to try smaller I was like no no no no I think this runs true to size I want my size I will yeah order both into the store for me to try and I will try it to humor you but it was like a real back and forth and like they were very nice and I think you know people are just used to things like fitting really tight yeah especially there and so that is going to be an interesting education to the consumer because I was like nope my size fits perfect I will take them it's also interesting there I have a friend who is a CMO and she and I have totally different taste we never like the same collections we're always she's like wait you like that and she is obsessed with the Celine pants and she wears her clothes she wears her clothes loose okay so she doesn't wear those super skinny pants she wears like the she got a pair of the no she never would she's very petite and okay and curvy and um which pants is she wearing the wide leg crops maybe maybe love it she was like i love them i'm obsessed and it's also not her like she she doesn't have of she you wouldn't expect her to be to wear Celine like it's her style is not like French bougie she's she's like very LA very she loves it so I think it's an it's it's gonna be a real thing it's exciting it's exciting Becky I just want to say I think it's so funny that we've been talking so much about bags when we did a whole segment about how bags are over and everyone should just be carrying a dust bag.

37:58I know. And since then, I've bought two bags. Same. And I went to the Gucci show in New York, which was great. And the bag, I went to the Reese's, and the bags were so good. I'm so glad. I knew they were going to nail the problem. I thought the boots looked amazing at that show. The boots were good. back to the back for one second. No, you should. We're going to do a spending freeze with you and meditate on what's actually needed. Okay. The bag, they even showed the bags in the showroom, which I thought was so clever, with laptops in them. Oh, nice. So that you could see that this tote could carry your laptop and still be a chic bag.

38:45I was like, oh, this is really smart. That's really smart. I'm excited. I have a big story on carrying coming out on Thursday. The PR people don't know yet. I should email that. But one of the things I'm going to write is I've heard they're like really going long on Demna and investing in it big time. So don't think otherwise, people. I really liked the clothes in the showroom. I mean, a lot of it felt vintage, but like, listen, not everyone is going to scour Etsy for the right silk scarf shirt. And like the pieces broken down, it was beautiful coats, beautiful shirts. The jeans looked incredible.

39:23It just felt like, again, a wardrobing proposition that felt cool. Yeah. 100%. I think that idea of like people, not everyone goes vintage shopping every single week. Like I went to the Saint Laurent outlet or Saint Laurent Disco. You're not supposed to use the word outlet. the non-alem yeah at Bicester Village and I got I got a pair of jeans that are like pretty traditional skinny jeans and then two skirts and just a white shirt but I tried on a bunch of the like silk blouses and I didn't buy them because I I do have I have like a lot of Saint Laurent Rive Gauche silk blouses and a full line Saint Laurent blouse but like I don't need to do that because I go vintage shopping a lot but a lot of people don't and and also yeah if it's good it's good if it's good it doesn't really matter yeah but I think Becky I do think I I do believe we deserve the credit for the no handbag handbags we do we don't need to go there It's funny this is all about copying because when another publication wrote about no handbag handbags and did not reference us, we were both really upset.

40:45Even though I never get mad about stuff like that because people have been copying my stories for 20 years. There was a reporter at the Wall Street Journal that used to just literally use the same sources as me and rewrite the story. And I never said anything ever to her. That's crazy. But I never will forget. I just think I think we're sensitive about it because people got so like passionate about their response to us. Yeah. I mean, I had CEOs calling me. Yeah. I had so many different types of people reaching out, people really angry at me. And so I just felt like, oh, well, OK. I think without saying, basically a publication wrote about how nobody wants handbags anymore and then never referenced us.

41:36And it just felt like it's fine. They could have. I think it's fine. And the thing is that I've realized since we did that podcast and I've had to do a lot of soul searching on all the people attacking me. It's not that the handbag is dead. obviously we still need to carry our shit, our stuff. I'm not allowed to say that. It's that we don't want handbags used as this sort of lazy dummy item that people are going to blindly spend money on. There has to be some sort of functionality and excitement and a reason for us to want to upgrade. Yes, that handbag is a signifier of status and your place in the world has been challenged because everybody has them.

42:26And then also it's just kind of tacky. Right. Status is now sort of having something that's a bit more interesting and off the beaten path. So like I bought at Shop the Story, our favorite vintage shop in Milan. Shout out. We love you. She's really amazing. We love you. um i bought a i kind of want to have her on the podcast to just talk about mu mu and prada you should i've i'm going to i need to i need to book it but um i got a prada clutch that has a little nylon from 1988 and i then i got a mu mu clutch or a little bag you helped me with these purchases from like 2008 and those are I love and I've been wearing around a lot and this Phoebe envelope pochette thing is it's not an envelope it's the pochette it's it doesn't have a chain it's a leather strap but that has been amazing so like the little saddle one it's like curved at the bottom no it's square I'll send you a link it's a it looks sort of like the envelope one but it's a pochette so it's almost like that bag and it has it has the look of the gig but it's not three parts or the trio but it's not three parts it's really great I love it I've been using it a lot and you know I have this issue where I have too much leather so I need suede to break it up so it's been it's been really nice but but yeah I think like I also think yeah the dust bag and Celine made a great one too um and I think the Celine bags are just really really good I think I also just like the idea of an easy bag like so I just bought this row bag in their end of season sale the nan which is like a really soft flat bag that's kind of like the pochette that you're talking about and it has a big flap it's not that small but it wears very yeah this And I actually talked to Simone about this in the showroom after Jill that I was like, you just want when the clothes are really like structured and you're feeling really dressed, you just need some sort of sense of ease.

44:40And I think that's where relaxing your handbag helps. It's so funny. The NAM bag, which is on my Teresa right now for 1645 in brown if people want it. Let me just make sure it's on. That's the color I got. Yes. 30 percent off. I it's so funny. Over Christmas, I went to the store with Claire Mazur and I almost bought it. But I didn't. And I'm glad I bought. I really love that because I was like, this is actually, I don't know why this isn't, it's not the most expensive thing in the whole world. And also I need a bag like this. I really like the pochette that I got from Phoebe, but this is awesome too.

45:19And it looks like the one that they have on my, Teresa, is quite big. Yeah, mine's pretty big. So it can really fit a lot. Yeah, my pochette's smaller. The laptop is very delicate. You don't want to overfill it. Yeah, totally. It's not a laptop bag. But yeah, I think that that's, it's a similar vibe of bag. And also, I love the Phoebe bags. And I'm sure that the Nan is like this too. The stamp, the emboss, she doesn't do a stamp, she doesn't emboss. Or it's, no, it's a stamp. It's inside. So you can't see it because, you know, that's obviously. And these row ones now, the stamp is very, it's not in gold or anything.

45:55Great. It's like on the back and very little teeny tiny. Perfect. Same color. Beautiful.