Taylor’s Altar Ego

0:03Hello and welcome to Fashion People. I'm Lauren Sherman, writer of Puck's fashion and beauty memo, line cheat. And today with me on the show is Elana Fishman, the style and shopping director at the New York Post. We're talking Chanel's acquisition of Charvet, Wimbledon kits and fits, and of course, Taylor Swift's wedding.

0:27Happy Tuesday, everyone. Hope you had a great week. I am at the couture shows in Paris. I am tired. I am hungry. I am happy. It's not too hot here. It's hot, but not like it was last week. There are some beautiful clothes. And I am going on holiday next week. For real. You'll still hear from me, though, of course. Line sheet and fashion people. We go. We continue to go. You know, I'm always working. Monday, speaking of line sheet, Monday on line sheet. A couple reports from the shows. but more than that, a sort of state of Jonathan Anderson's union with Dior. I thought his couture show and the Menzor show last week were the best shows he's done so far, but you can still feel what a challenging position he's in.

1:12It's not like ultimately, I think the problem, it's not like this is going away. It's going to be hard. And because everything is so incremental, we can really feel it. I think we all need to lighten up and just like take it for what it is, which is nice clothes. But I went, I did much deeper analysis and some reporting and line sheets. So you should pay for it. But ultimately, what I will say is I think the problem with like Dior, but Gucci also, just like all these brands that grew a lot, like engineered growth in the past few years, I think they got too big. I think it was pandemic inflation.

1:48And I don't know if Dior should be a$15 billion business. I don't know if Gucci should be a$15 billion business. His company is consolidated and I think in many cases they need to shrink to grow for it to work. And I thought what was good about these two collections is they were really focused. Like they had everything in them that he wants to do, but they felt like him. They are going to make some people happy, some people not. But it didn't feel like it was pandering to anybody. And it was just what he believes. And I think that that's what it has to be for now. And everybody just needs to chill out and let him do his thing for a minute.

2:31And also, I see the appeal in a lot of it. Not all of it, but a lot of it. If I was a rich lady, I'd want one of those looks for sure. Now we're just waiting to see what Taylor Swift's dress looked like and what kind of boost he gets on the mass market level from that. elsewhere, but I really went in depth on this. So if you guys care about this stuff, which I know a lot of you do, you should check it out. I went to Schiaparelli this morning, this Monday, yesterday morning, because this is technically Tuesday. I went to Schiaparelli. I have thoughts, going to write about it later this week, Standing Ground.

3:10Really interesting. Last night, I will also have a report on that. Chanel is today, so is Armani, and then tomorrow, Balenciaga and Jean-Paul Gaultier. I'll have a lot more later in the week about what I think about this stuff. Malik, if you need a diversion from Fashion Week, which we always do, he has a great piece on Spanx, which is his company owned by Blackstone that should have been big and should have sort of... Skims, everybody talks about how Skims kicked Victoria's secrets ass, but they actually kicked Spanx. Skims basically took over for Spanx. And so what happened? And Malik gets into that.

3:58And also it's kind of the blackstone of it all. If you're into private equity, like I am, you'll find it fascinating. Then Wednesday, we have a special guest appearance from Linda Wells of Airmail and The Look. Obviously, I worship Linda and her reporting and Rachel's on vacation. So it's an interesting piece that sort of is a companion to my Monday piece about Jonathan and Dior. So check that out. Got a lot of good stuff. And if there is something you want me to address on here, I know many of you DM me, but just email me and I'll try to fulfill your request on Friday. Otherwise, have a great weekend.

4:37Let's get going with Alana.

4:41Alana Fishman, welcome to Fashion People. Thank you, Lauren. Oh my gosh, it's so good to be here. It's been a long time coming. It's been a long time. So many people may not know that we used to work together. RIP Lucky Magazine. Lucky Girl for Life. Lucky Girl for Life. Cute outfit of the day. We had a great time. Last week on the news, say on the Tuesday show, I had Marc Beauger from Letta Quette. And I was explaining to him that Letta Quette is like the cool French chic version of Lucky. He was like, I don't think he was like, what is that? But it was it was good. He's he was awesome. But the one thing I would like to shout out to you before we get started on very important news day is Alana is writes the cleanest copy of any person I've ever met still.

5:29Lauren, thank you so much. It's what comes with being like a crazed perfectionist. But I be great puns. I love puns. What do you think about the post? But yeah, Oh, my gosh. Working with you at Lucky was such a blast. Lucky was ahead of its time in so many ways. And we also had the most kick-ass team in fashion media. We did. I always think about Andrea. Oh, my gosh. And her, I think she's like a nurse now or something. And her day of fun. A day of fun! We can't talk about that here. But also, I just want to say that it was ahead of its time, but it was also behind in many ways. and that's why it doesn't exist anymore.

6:12But that's a podcast for another day, right, Alana? So I'll come back and we can talk all things lucky. Yes. Maybe we'll have Januzi on. He would die. Yes. Okay. So I wanted to have you on today because you are the ultimate Taylor Swift expert. And I think like more about more than her clothes. But like all I know is because, you know, I only know a few Taylor Swift songs. So I don't remember. So you've been, how long have you been, how long have you been obsessed with Taylor Swift? And how did you incorporate that into your porting as the shopping and style director at the New York Post? Yeah, of course.

6:51So, you know, it's really funny. I was thinking about it the other day. I became a Swifty while working for you at Lucky. It was 2011 or 2012, I want to say. That was the first time I heard a Taylor Swift song and like really fell in love with it. It was mine from Speak Now. I still think that's one of her best written songs of all time. But at the same time, it's like hard to tell whether I fell in love with her music or her fashion first. And I know her fashion has a lot of haters and we will definitely get into that. But at the time, like, Lauren, you remember when we were at Lucky and the street style scene was really blowing up as its own kind of like form of entertainment.

7:32Cute outfit of the day. Cute outfit of the day. Exactly. It was like the age of street style. and mixed prints and patterns and really like it was it was very maximalist. Yeah. And I loved how Taylor dressed like the polar opposite of that. She was gearing up for red at the time, which was her self-described 50s housewife era. She was ahead of the curve with the whole trad wife style moment, too. Yeah. But she was wearing like, you know, the circle skirts and the little cashmere sweaters and like just very polished and feminine and pretty, which is the way I've always liked to dress. No jeans for Alana.

8:12No jeans for Alana. Lauren, I finally am wearing jeans now. And it took, I went at least a decade and a half without owning jeans or pants. Incredible stuff. Incredible stuff. That is how I first fell in love with her style and her music kind of simultaneously. I can't even remember which came first. All I know is it was around 2012 when I was at Lucky. And so I started to chronicle her fashion choices on LuckyMag.com, RIP. And then also at Vox Media, where I was at Racked as the entertainment editor. Shout out to Brit. Shout out to Brit. And at Time Inc. for a hot second, working at Style Watch.

8:57And now at Page Six Style, which I joined as the founding editor in 2017, 18, and I've been at it for eight and a half years. Isn't that crazy? Time flies. It's amazing. Well, I've enjoyed watching your rise and you're cementing yourself as a Taylor Swift expert. And I am proud that you began your journey working with me at Lucky. so let's talk really really briefly about her style yes and look like you know that there's a lot of stuff she wears I really hate but I love it I love her style like I want her to dress badly I don't want like people this is what people don't understand like I'm into her dressing badly I when she wore that out Stella McCartney outfit with the row pants I was like please stop like I I don't want to see that on you.

9:51Her recent looks, it's been fascinating to see how leading up to the wedding, her recent looks have been more fashion person approved. I feel like there has been resounding applause from people in the industry, whereas before I was one of the defenders in the industry. But yeah, it's fascinating. Like you said, like I personally, I think if she were to sign a brand deal like a lot of her peers in the industry or start dressing in like head to toe looks from designer runways, that would hurt her relatability. And she became famous writing love songs that the entire world connects with and relates to.

10:31Like the fan artist connection is such a thing for Taylor. And I feel like it would alienate a lot of folks, to be honest, myself included, if she started wearing Hedito Chanel or Schiaparelli or what have you. so here's a question for you do you think she thinks about that so this is a thing i don't get about her okay because i don't follow closely enough i only follow what other people say and i've emailed tree pains a few times and have written about her style in particular but the thing i know there's like a lot of stuff about easter eggs and things and she's like do you think she is aware and her and Joseph, her stylist, are aware of the fact that people are looking at her as anthropology gone wild and feeling extremely, extremely connected to that?

11:23Or do you think she just wears what she likes? Like, do you think it's calculated? I wouldn't say calculated. I would say she is at least to a degree aware of what everyone says about her. I feel like she is the kind of person who doesn't read the comments, but her team does, and they have an awareness of what is going on and what is being said. The Easter egg piece of it has been a Taylor thing since day one, like back when she was capitalizing certain letters in her album liner notes that spelled out secret messages that gave kind of clues as to who the songs were about and what they were about.

12:01And she has said multiple times, like, she continues to do the Easter egg thing because her fans love it. And so it's kind of her game with them. And it does translate to her style in a really big way. I mean, I am also the kind of Swifty who, yes, I'm a longtime fan. I personally think some of the Swifties take it a bridge too far. yeah like it gets sort of you know like adding subtracting dividing numbers looking trying to like look at beadwork for things that are spelled out in the embellishments that's a little insane however we can talk about how she definitely easter egged her way to her wedding dress okay so please let's talk about that yes so her dress was designed and so was travis kelsey her husband's whatever suit I guess he wore yeah were designed by Jonathan Anderson via Dior the house that he and I went to the Dior couture show today and um thought beautiful wedding dress beautiful wedding dress and there was a beautiful wedding dress the last time too so it's like which one is the hint I don't know we will see maybe by the time this airs it will be she still hasn't published a photo of it and everything I've heard is they're just waiting for her they don't have a choice.

13:17No one has a choice. I think that everybody involved, I was with Vanessa Friedman today at a preview of the collection. And she was like, I really hope that they don't show it today because I have too much to write out. Personally, I would like them to publish it today because I'm doing a big story on like what I think about like the state of Jonathan at Dior. And it would be great to see the photos of them and just anyway, let's go back to the Easter eggs that she put to to get to the fact that she was going to wear this Dior dress. Totally. So I should start by saying, Jonathan was on my short list of contenders.

13:53However, he was not at the top. Who did you think it was going to be? For me, it was kind of a three-way tie between Stella, who she's been friends with for a decade. She wears her the most of anyone in her day-to-day street style, which I feel like we know Taylor dresses in eras to support her different albums. So she shifts her style to match her sound from album to album. But Stella's been a constant for a long time. And I know like Paul McCartney performed at the wedding. I had this vision in my head of her walking down the aisle in Stella McCartney's first celebrity wedding dress and Paul singing at the altar.

14:29Like I really thought that was a possibility. Oscar de la Renta, or rather Fernando and Laura, I thought, had a really good shot. She loves Oscar. She's worn the house many, many times over many years. And then I thought Ralph Lauren had a shot too. Granted, a lot of celebrity brides have worn Ralph already, which is the thing about Taylor is she wants to be the first to do things and to put her own stamp on it. And I think that in the end was probably why she didn't. She picked Jonathan. The one thing I was wondering is whether she would do that woman who does like a lot of custom. She's just like a custom designer.

15:10Hmm. I forget her name. She does like a lot for, I want to say like Meghan Markle and people like that, but like Amal. Do you know what I'm talking about? Not Sarah Burton. No. Who's also on my short list. Not a designer attached to a house. Oh. She has her own atelier in New York. I forget what her name is. Interesting. I always knew it would be a house. Like, I knew she wanted to go with a big established house. The question was which.

15:47So what were the Easter eggs? Okay, so here are the Easter eggs, which, by the way, I did clock as they were happening. However, I didn't read too much into it, and I'll explain why. So starting around April of this year, so she was already engaged. She was wedding planning. Taylor stepped out carrying a whole series, I believe five in total, different Jonathan Anderson for Dior bags with various outfits. She had previously not worn much Dior at all. There was a Maria Grazia designed like yellow plaid look at the 2024 VMAs. But obviously that was from a different, you know, that was Jonathan's predecessor.

16:26But yeah, she carried a bunch. There was a like buttercup yellow applique Lady Dior. There was one of the Medellin bags with the seal, which I like desperately, desperately want. One of the 30 Montagnier bags with a top handle she carried twice. And one of the bucket bags, the quilted, I think it's the Demotion bucket bag. And so like having not previously worn much Dior at all, that was sort of a Easter egg that a lot of fans picked up on right away. I didn't read too much into it at the time because she also carries lots of designer bags. Since getting together with Travis Kelsey, she's carried a ton of Louis Vuitton bags.

17:13I actually thought Vuitton had a shot at designing both Travis and Taylor's looks. good thing that didn't happen i really thought they have a shot and i will also say i could see the the vuitton of it like the the pharrell of it all yeah but not the correct and he loves he loves the house so i thought that might be like him you know bringing you know putting his stamp on things but um and i do think their red carpet has gotten a lot better in recent months although i think chase infinity has a lot to do with that because she would look good in literally anything i agree Her body is insane. Insane.

17:49Insane. But yeah, but Taylor carries Gucci bags. She's carried, you know, so it's in hindsight, hindsight's 2020, right? Now I'm like, she gave so many signs. But at the time I was like, oh, she's got some new bags, you know. Yeah. If I were you, I would not have thought of her because he is such a thinky designer. like this collection today I like what did you what do you think of his clothes I'm curious because you and I have obviously a very different taste totally totally he's a very avant-garde choice for her and I say that like not as a diss but like I just didn't see it I think he's incredibly interesting I like him a lot I like Anderson a lot yeah is he my absolute favorite in terms of what I would want to wear.

18:38Probably not. Yeah. I thought that this collection today was really good. Like it was gorgeous. And if you're a rich, cool lady, why would you not want this stuff? But it's not mass. It's very specific. And that is, I thought she would go, like she wore a very cute, I loved, I honestly, the Ralph Lauren dress she wore for the engagement photos was the favorite thing that she's ever worn. Lauren, the way I loved it. I have been begging the Ralph team to restock that dress mostly so I can get one. It was so good. It was. I also I'm glad you mentioned that because Travis was also wearing polo Ralph Lauren on their engagement day.

19:21So they were coordinating for that moment and now they're coordinating in Dior on their wedding day. So that was a cute full circle moment. But I agree when I think of Taylor's style independent of her different album eras. I think all-American, feminine, pretty, classic, a little bit traditional. Again, like you could say, but reputation. She was wearing snakeskin and camouflage patterns. But Taylor as a person at her heart tends to go more classic, feminine, beautiful. And so that is what I've always pictured for her wedding dress and for her choice of designer. So Jonathan's a very like bold choice he obviously is an incredibly talented designer like i love his collections i will say the bags have been so good like that the bags are very you and the shoes are very you i love a novelty bag yeah so cute you could get a bow i can see you in a bow bag yeah i think it's um i'm very interested i could see the funny thing is the dress today the the wedding dress was pretty easy.

20:23And it's like, that is what I imagined her in. But the other dress would she would look amazing in and and my two favorite looks of hers are that Ralph Lauren dress she wore to the for her engagement photos because it was just like super classic and and sweet. And then I loved when she wore that like, vintage Gaultier. It wasn't vintage, but it was like a re repurposed Jean-Paul Gaultier like sheer top they like oh yeah I thought that out when she was like getting into the little leather skirt he yeah he had clearly been like this here's the shop essence that I have a personal shopper at we'll buy you a bunch so I was like I'm into this like I like her trying to like be on essence but that that ended quickly anyway I want to talk to you a bit about we have a lot to run through but i want to talk to you a bit about the the attendees the and and what you thought of of a couple of them but um why do you think like when do you think she's going to post about it why do you think she hasn't yet like i would like her to post the the weirdest thing that this has made me realize is now every single conversation i have is like well was that actually AI?

21:38Because when I saw one of the photos on Saturday morning, I was like, oh, there it is. I am assuming everything is AI until they post. Like, you have to be so careful in this day and age. They obviously confiscated everybody's phones. And now over the past like 48 hours, we've started to see guests post. But as you surely noticed, it's like looks of their outfits and like in a couple of instances, the entryway to the venue, nothing inside, like they're keeping it very close to the chest. But yeah, I think honestly, I think they're going through wedding images right now, putting final touches on them, deciding which to release with what caption.

22:22If you had to ask me, like I'm with you, Lauren, like I need them to release these photos so that I don't have to bring my laptop literally everywhere I go. Yeah. I had it with me while I was watching 4th of July fireworks. Just post the photos, guys. Tree, post the photos. Come on, Tree. Do it for Lana. You did invite her. I can't believe they didn't invite you to the wedding. It was a press-free event, so I felt a little bit better because of that. But yeah, obviously I would have killed to be there. Yeah, you and Blake Lively were wronged. I'm so obsessed with the fact that Blake Lively was not invited to this wedding.

22:57It's truly crazy. Or maybe she decided not to come. We don't know. Right. We don't know. That's the thing. Maybe she was like, I don't want to draw attention to you, but I don't. Please. Like she showed up to the Met Gala the day that she. Hours after her lawsuit got whatever happened to her. This is just a great. I can't wait for the like. I can't wait for one of their books. Right. Right. She was apparently at a. We saw photos of her at like a horse show in upstate New York. So she was in the state. but not in the city. Someone I know was like on a plane with Ryan to like Europe. Huh. I wouldn't have thought he would fly commercial for some reason, but I assume that everyone flies private.

23:40I don't know. But don't fly private guys. It really ruins you. That's what Abigail Disney says. Oh, I, she says that the minute her parents started flying private, that's when they like became alcoholics. So don't do it guys. I, I got upgraded to first class once in my life. And even that was hard to come back from. I was like, oh, my gosh, they're serving like warm nuts and beverages. No, I don't want to talk about it. It's once you go back. Once you go, it's hard to go back. It's hard to go back. But yeah, so I was going to say that. Oh, the date when they're going to post my theory personally, although as we've seen with the wedding dress prediction, she surprises me all the time.

24:18I am very often wrong in my Swifty guesses, but I will say Wednesday, July 8th, is going to mark the three-year anniversary of the Ares Tour show in Kansas City that Travis attended and attempted to give Taylor his phone number in the form of a beaded friendship bracelet. So imagine the caption. The caption writes itself, see? And also Taylor's very into notable dates, anniversaries, numerology. So I feel like Wednesday would be pretty perfect. But like, it could happen at like 11pm tonight. It could happen Thursday or weeks from now. Yeah, it's like, it's truly anyone's guess. okay well i really hope she posts i really want to know today it would be much easier for me well would it be but you're at the shows oh you would have to drop everything down about yeah but like the way i write about the shows i'll do more coverage of the shows later in the week but today like my main piece is about like jonathan at dior got it and so i yes i'm gonna write about the show and write about the men's show and all that stuff but like for me the context of the fact that he did a show on wednesday he flew to new york one at whatever day he was there for them he did both both of them and then also flew back on the red eye on saturday night got in on sunday morning and then monday at 2 30 presented a couture show for clients so they have to like set up a whole thing for the clients too like that's crazy it's wild i wonder if carly was on his plane because she walked in the show yeah i want she was at yeah she was she walked in schiaparelli um yeah i mean maybe they shared a plan i don't know oh i know oh yeah carly walks schiaparelli not dior what am i thinking but but i think like yeah it's interesting because the thing is the thing about Jonathan Anderson is that he is not a mass market designer but he is a has a mass market sensibility from a marketing perspective like he knows how to it's not even mass market he's just a marketer so like in this era of like everybody's niche you have to have Greta Lee and Sabrina Carpenter like he needs to somehow he needs to merge because it's a massive niche niches or whatever and fragmentation of culture there's very few mass culture like as my husband said taylor swift may be the most famous white woman in the world but like she only right she's she's someone we all know but she does not represent like greta lee in many ways is as important as her in terms of like the fabric of our culture and the way our culture works now or or um like i don't know who the female equivalent of mr beast is i guess like alex earl or something like that yeah maybe like all these people are important in a different way and so a brand like dior that is really really big arguably i've been thinking about this a lot the last week doesn't need to be as big as it is i think probably not i think it's actually would be better as like it's they want it to be a 15 billion dollar business I think it's probably a it's natural size is like five billion dollars and it would be like a very nice business and then he could do whatever he wanted but right it needs to be big so they need someone like her and I thought I'm just interested to see what it is because if it's a little weird the dress it's gonna make more sense in the context of who he is if it's just like a straight up dress and you can't recognize it it i i can't imagine it will be i think he's the kind of person that he wants to make his mark too but i just think it's like so and it's so interesting because there's been so many comparisons between dior and chanel which i i assume you love chanel i also love chanel i mean who doesn't love chanel like but yeah you're so right the the sort of more avant guard you know young talent coming into this very established yeah you know decade centuries old house and kind of shaking it up but also trying to nod to the history yeah and the legacy it's like a very difficult tightrope to walk i will say i think the accessories i mean we all know like the accessories are what really sell in the beauty but like i and i think both are doing incredible jobs on that front it's interesting one person said that they thought she she's the kind of person that like would look back in history for like a famous person who's worn a Dior wedding dress and try to copy that.

29:16I don't know if you agree with that. She well, OK, yes and no. Taylor's interesting because she like I said, she loves to make history and be the first to things and set records, break records. At the same time, she is like a nerd complimentary like she wrote an entire song about elizabeth taylor and then acquired i mean well i we my reporting suggests that travis kelsey purchased it for her but an opal a suite of opal jewelry once owned by elizabeth taylor wear dior once for a wedding yes she did i believe or i believe so um she definitely wore dior over the course of her life That would be cool.

29:58Let's see what it was look like. What exactly I was like Dior is one of also I mean, yes, Jonathan Anderson is there now shaking things up and making it his own. But like Dior as a house is so steeped in fashion history and Hollywood history. And she loves that sort of thing. She loves like great Hollywood stars of the past and pulling references from. It's always amazing to see how quickly your child grows. And I'm not just talking about their height. From those early babbles to full-on storytelling, getting to watch how their ideas, creativity, and confidence develop over the years is honestly pretty incredible.

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31:17That's the kind of magic of Lego bricks. You're not buying a phase, you're starting a journey. Learn more and start building today with Lego bricks. Okay, really quickly. Did you like anybody's looks from the wedding? Because everything I saw was terrible. Really? Okay. My favorite by a landslide was Gigi Hadid in Widerhoft. She looked good, yeah. Lauren, I want that dress. Like I want that dress in my closet. Widerhoft, correct. Which Taylor has recently worn twice. And also Jackson was one of the names being bandied around for doing Taylor's dress. I think they're not quite, you know, the longstanding storied house that she was looking for.

32:02But I thought Gigi looked amazing. I thought Selena and Oscar de la Renta looked really amazing. Kind of fitting because Taylor had worn a gold toned Oscar de la Renta dress to Selena's wedding when she married Benny Blanco last year. So a little like cute, you know, matching, matching pace. and I really like Gracie Abrams in that Chanel that she wore in Vogue recently the like red ombre oh yeah Meteo d 'Arche yeah I thought Zoe Kravitz looked good because that's what I would wear I really need to see oh it's so cool I think that was vintage Balenciaga I I need to see a shot of that dress without like a tote bag blocking it because that's the only photo we've seen I mean And it was just felt very realistic.