Tennis Lessons

0:03Hello and welcome to Fashion People. I'm Lauren Sherman, writer of Puck's Fashion and Beauty Memo Line Sheet. And today with me on the show is Amanda Greeley, a retail exec and founder of the new tennis line Spence. We discuss peak DTC, brand building, cute shorts, Indian Wells, challengers, and a whole lot more. Before we get going, I wanted to remind you that if you like this podcast, you'll definitely love Puck, where I send an email called Line Sheet. If you're a fashion person, you get that reference. It's an original look at what's really going on inside the fashion and beauty industries.

0:42Line Sheet is scoopy, analytical, and above all, fun. Along with me, a subscription to Puck gains you access to an unmatched roster of experts reporting on powerful people and companies in entertainment, media, sports, politics, finance, the art world, and much more. If you're interested, listeners of Fashion People get a discount. Just go to puck.news slash fashion people to join Puck or start a free trial. Happy Friday, everyone. Busy week here in LA. A reminder that I'm doing a live taping of fashion people at the Pacific Design Center at 1 p.m. on Saturday, March 29th with Jesse Lee, the guy behind Design Space LA, Design Miami, and the e-commerce site Basic Space.

1:28The conversation is part of the Design Space LA programming And Design Space LA is a shoppable design fair That's happening Saturday and Sunday at the Pacific Design Center So I said a bunch of stuff multiple times Hoped to see you there now that you really know what's going on This week on Line Sheet, my bud Rachel Strugeatz Delivered a goop State of the Union Amid Gwyneth Paltrow's latest press run I got into the prospect of product group purchasing Versace and what that'll mean for the industry. I think it's going to happen. Sounds like we'll know by April 10th, which is soon. But everyone I've talked to in a bunch of different worlds is like, yeah, it's moving along.

2:12So fingers crossed. It sounds like they might buy Jimmy Choo too. So interesting. Sarah Shapiro is also back on Friday today, rounding up the week that was in shopping and retail, including the launch of a new golf line called Redan or Redan or R-E-D-A-N, who knows. But to be honest, it's sort of a tricky concept. It's like a private members club and then you have access to the clothes or something. Sarah was able to unpack all of it. But the reason I thought it was important for her to write about it is that there are a lot of new sports-specific active wear lines popping up, including Spence, the tennis line founded by Amanda, who is my guest today.

2:54And I'd argue that this sort of surge of brands is an indication that there are more room for more players in the active wear market, which I wholeheartedly believe. Like I always say, there's like a gazillion different denim lines. People wear active wear every day. They wear active wear more than denim. Of course, there should be more and more opportunities for people with different aesthetics, all that stuff. So remember, and also remember that Nike and Lululemon started as single sport brands. Anyway, it's a perfect segue into my conversation with Amanda.

3:28Amanda Greeley, welcome to Fashion People. Wow. Yeah, thanks. I'm excited to do this. So the first question we ask on Fridays is what did you have for breakfast? Yeah, it's funny. I was reminded that you would ask this. So I'm often not a great breakfast eater, but I did have some plain Greek yogurt with some strawberries this morning and I feel good about myself for having done so. Great, great balance of carbs and protein to really get you moving. That's right. And coffee. so this has been a big week for you you launched you officially launched your your brand spence tell me tell me all about it and um and what it's been like this week yeah i mean launch is such a funny word and i think you know we you know we did an event in new york back in september that kind of coincided with the u.s open and fashion week that was meant to be a bit of a preview but I think a lot of people wanted to throw the word launch around then.

4:32But yeah, we, you know, we fully launched our e-commerce this week on Tuesday. And this is something I've been working on, you know, intensely for a couple of years. And it's been an idea of mine since about 2018 in a pretty formed way. So to finally kind of turn the lights on and be live and have a real e-commerce website that people can shop from is a bit, I mean, it's super exciting and it's a bit surreal because it has felt like a long time coming. Yeah. I'm perusing it right now at Spence.us. So before, we'll walk back and learn more about your history and that fully formed idea. But to start, what is Spence?

5:16Explain it and give us your elevator pitch. I mean, Spence is like the new disruptive, exciting, racket sports focused apparel brand. I think, I mean, it's hard for me not to jump around and this is not a good elevator pitch, but I, you know, back in 2018, a good friend of mine named Paul Munford, who kept a newsletter about direct-to-consumer brands called Lean Luxe, and I were talking about... My God, Lean Luxe. Yeah, and actually... Well, throwback, Lean Luxe Slack. Does it still exist? Actually, it still exists, which I learned they were talking about Spence this week in the Slack, but he's actually bringing back a new version of Lean Lux in the next few weeks.

5:56So like very funny timing. But he and I were chatting about a lot of the cool new running focused and cycling focused brands around 2018. And he knew me well enough to know I'd played tennis my whole life. And he's like, you've played tennis your whole life. There's no cool tennis brand. You should do it. And I was just, I mean, on the spot, I knew it was going to be called Spence, which is, it was kind of bizarre that it came that quickly. But the reason is that I, you know, right away I had this sense that it had to be both for men and for women. And the silly story is Spencer is a name that my mom liked for boys at the time I was born.

6:33So I kind of thought, what a funny, like more masculine alter ego. And I liked that it was easy to say, spell, remember, kind of had that sportiness to it. And I think kind of feels like tennis without saying something that's literally too tennis. And also at that time, right away, I was like, it needs to be racket sports, not just tennis, but also I really didn't want to be a golf and tennis brand. I think you see that a lot. And then you kind of inevitably get this like golf pros and tennis hoes thing that goes on in terms of aesthetic. Oh, my God. I actually didn't know about golf pros and tennis hoes.

7:11And I'm excited. It makes sense. Yeah. So anyway, I kind of was looking around at the space at the time. And what you saw was kind of your giant athletic apparel brands, you know, your Adidas and your Nikes kind of I felt like their assortments were getting really tired. In fact, I tried to go shop for myself because I was getting back into tennis as an adult. And I went to Nike.com thinking I'm going to buy, you know,$300 worth of new tennis gear and just didn't want anything. And so it was like, huh, that's interesting. And then you look at some of at the time brands like Wilson and Yonix and Head and Fila.

7:49Actually, Fila is not long, but Babelot all had no direct e-commerce. And so it was kind of shocking to me that as late as 2019, we were, you know, 10 years into like the post Warby Parkerization of every category. And that tennis was still like in wholesale world and largely distributed on Tennis Warehouse. And then you have a lot of like small niche country club brands, I would say, that maybe aren't great performance and are super preppy. And so I was just like, wow, there hasn't been anything that feels really fresh, cool, new, exciting in tennis and racket sports. And I just kind of was like, man, this would be really fun to do if given the opportunity.

8:27so why were you in the lean lux slack and we should explain and you you sort of did lean lux was this like luxury newsletter um i did have some issues with paul because he used to like rip my stories and put my name on his post which if he does that again this time don't do that paul it was not a good way to offer but i did think that he had he built this really amazing community and there was the slack, but it was all about it. It was in the middle of the 2010s at the launch of direct to consumer. Um, and not the launch of direct to consumer, but like the, the kind of peak of the idea of direct to consumer.

9:10Yeah, I agree. It was like the pinnacle, like peak DTC. Yeah. So how were you involved in the DTC world? I funny enough, my, my mom is who found the newsletter first and sent it to me and was like, this guy says some interesting stuff sometimes. He really does. He does. But he used to put all of our names at the bottom of his thing, like all the writers in that industry. It was really weird. Just don't do that. Interesting. He didn't know. It's fine. He won't do it this time. It was a long time ago. Yeah. And around the same time, you know, I also kind of got pulled in, pulled in is maybe the wrong, but like brought into a direct-to-consumer brand called Cup, which was an underwear.

9:53It still exists, but I was kind of, I was one of maybe two people who were non-founders who were involved from the very jump of that and spent almost two years, like pre-launched, helping develop that brand and product. So I think that, you know, I was spending a lot, even though I was living in Charleston already, I was in New York at least a couple of times a month in that stretch of time. And that's probably about when I got, you know, when I discovered Lean Luck Slack and all of that. And your mom is, I know, I know your mom because I wrote a book about Victoria's Secret. Your mom worked at Victoria's Secret.

10:30Right. But she's also the CEO of Serena and Lily, which is a great like DTC homeware brand. And so did you kind of just grow up in retail? Yeah. I mean, I often, if I'm pitching somebody, I often end up saying some version of exactly that. like jumping to the background thing. Like it's, it's kind of hard for me to imagine being who I am, were she not my mom. She started working at the Victoria's Secret home office the year I was born as a robe buyer and kind of like worked her way fully through that company and, and left, you know, after I was through college. So, I mean, I spent so much time at that home office and I still keep in touch with people she worked with who have known me since I was four or five.

11:15And it's kind of wild. And she's just this like real powerhouse merchant, really, who's always sort of in the back of my head. I mean, if I really enjoy kind of brand direction and art direction and the creative side of bringing all this to life, like she's the one who's always like, but what's your hero item, you know, and yeah, and really kind of a good, tough sounding board on kind of like, what's really going to drive growth and build your business versus just everything looking cool. Um, so, so yeah, I mean, I grew up in Columbus, Ohio because I was very much in that kind of orbit of, of Wexner world.

11:51And, and, you know, that was, that's very much shaped who I am. You know, it's so interesting. You're, I know one other child of, of Victoria's Secret who, um, the, uh, Grace Nichols, Celia Nichols, um, who I'm sure you know. You know, Celia? Yeah. Poor Celia. When I was writing the book, I'm like, Celia, can I talk to your mom? Because you know, private Grace's. Yeah. I actually think my mom just saw Grace down in Florida a couple of weeks ago. My mom worked directly for Grace for, I mean, probably close to 20 years, maybe 15. But I knew Grace since I was really little, obviously. And in fact, Grace is who my mom was actually a buyer for a children's clothing company in Columbus, a small children's clothing company.

12:36and Grace went in to shop for her daughters and just really liked how she had merchandised the whole thing and was like, do you want a bigger job kind of thing? And so that's how she ended up going to Victoria's Secret to begin with. That's amazing. Well, we won't make this a Victoria's Secret podcast. One more thing is your mom's name is Lori, Lori Greeley. But the one thing I will say that I think is interesting about you and the thing that I've been really drawn to dispense when you pre-launch some, I think someone mentioned it to me. I started following on Instagram. We started talking and I went, I came to the party you did with racket with Caitlin Thompson, who was just on Dylan buyers podcast.

13:13And you all should listen to it if you're into sports and you're into brand building. But I, the brand was like really clear from the beginning. And I, I was, I mean, I was attracted to, and we can talk about why and how you developed it. But, um, the, one of the reasons that Chantal Fernandez and I wanted to write that book about Victoria's secret, like it's a great story. It's an Epic story. There's a million stories. We could have done a book just about Grace Nichols and the time that she was there and your mom and all that stuff. But we wanted to tell that whole story because it's an amazing feat of brand development, like from the beginning, from the founders, the Raymonds, all the way up to when your mom was there.

13:56That's when it really became in some ways the biggest brand in America. But there is if you want a case study of how to build a brand, a retail brand like Victoria's Secret still works. And that must have been an amazing osmosis thing happening for you. Yeah. I mean, it was really it was a really cool background to my childhood. And it's so funny. I mean, she cared so much. I can't tell you. My mom drove. This is funny. When she got promoted to vice president, she bought a gold XJS convertible. And it's funny because at the time, I like loved it and was also kind of embarrassed by it because like everyone else's moms drove a minivan.

14:37And then like there's my blonde mother and her gold convertible, which is fabulous. But like on weekends, we would drive around to like the different malls around central Ohio and like look at the floor sets and like be like, what's right? What's wrong? Like it was just such a and And in some ways, I've never really heard anyone say this, but in some ways, the mall brands of America in that window of time were sort of the original direct brand and that they kind of moved past the department store. And while they had to invest a ton in real estate, so that's very different than where brands start now.

15:09But, you know, they got to own the whole experience with their customer in terms of like walking into the store and what the product was. And so, yeah, I mean, at their pinnacle, I mean, it was it was definitely about as culturally relevant as like a mainstream American mall brand could get for sure. Yeah. The the point that they were the original D.C. D.C. brands is is so important. So how did you end up in Charleston? You mentioned that you you had moved down there. Were you in New York previous to that? I was. I was. And I, you know, I grew up coming down here. My dad really loved history and historic stuff.

15:49And we just at least once a year would come down here. And I just always thought it was a special little city. And when I moved here, I don't think I was in it for some kind of like long haul thing. I thought like this will be a fun detour for a year or two. And then I kind of imagined I'd maybe go back to New York or maybe even go to the West Coast. I've always kind of had a thing for L.A., which if you look at our starting website right now, you'll be like, damn, this girl loves L.A. Yeah. But, you know, I've been in Charleston. And the cool thing about Charleston also is sort of it's it's pretty easy to get to and from New York.

16:21So as I've kind of continued to work on things there, it's like it's not so hard to jet back and forth. But, yeah, I discovered it as a kid. And, you know, after several years of being in New York, I just was like, man, I would love to spend some more time outside and get some more sun and just do something a little bit different. And that's what took me down here. And I don't know if I'll be here forever, but it really is a special little city that's also continued to evolve and change a lot since I've been here. Um, you know, I think, you know, maybe people who listen to this might like watch Southern Charmed or something, and it's just so not the whole picture of kind of what this place is.

16:59And especially in the post COVID landscape, I mean, you just see a lot more people who have lived in bigger places and have done kind of bigger things, kind of making this at least if not their full-time residence, a place they spent time. So, um, I just feel like I continue to meet more and more interesting people who have kind of ended up here for one reason or another. yeah there i who was that couple who i think they opened their friends with lizzie and katherine fortunato yeah um then in kate towel yes yeah they opened a is it a hotel down there and yeah they got a sweet little hotel called the post house um in old mount pleasant and they took it was a post house um and then they renovated it and made it a really sweet maybe like eight room hotel but it also has a great restaurant downstairs um and actually it's so funny because well we can i don't want to jump around too much but kate tracy georgia who's working on this with me um she was actually in town on a project and was having a coffee or lunch with kate and somehow spence came up and so tracy started following spence and i was like like we have met people in common but we hadn't met and i was like good follow because at that time the instagram was nothing.

18:12And so I was like, Hey, like who you tell me, you know, it was long weekend is her, is her agency. And, um, she's like, I'm actually in Charleston. Do you want to get a coffee? So we got a coffee the next morning last summer. And then that's kind of how we started working together. Um, but it was through Kate towel, funny enough. That's so funny. Yeah. Small world.

18:36so okay let's talk about you mentioned 2018 you got this idea you couldn't find anything the the thing is tennis is is always around it's not um but but the last obviously during covid the like racket sports thing has exploded what were you seeing in the market that you felt like, okay, I want to do an activewear brand that is centered around racket sports specifically. Why did you feel like that was a good jumping off point? I felt like, well, okay. I felt like back at that time, it is interesting because I started, even in 2018, I did, you know, having kind of been a part of the team at Cup who was kind of pitching for A rounds and stuff.

19:22It was kind of like, that was my early exposure to kind of like the VC pitch idea. And so even having kind of been around for that, I started to float the idea of this tennis or racket sport specific brand with people then. And it's so crazy how quickly the conversation can change because at that time, everyone's like, you're so right. There isn't a cool tennis brand. This sounds really cool. But then they're like, eh, the tamper tennis is too small. It's not really seen as a total addressable market. Sorry. Yes. It's okay. I thought I might have to say that. But the idea was like, it just wasn't a big enough group of people.

19:57And so all of that changed tremendously come enter pandemic, enter pickleball explosion. And I can't tell you how many times since then someone has been just like, well, why don't you just make it a pickleball brand? And you're like, no, that's not it. But the reason is I felt like I looked around and I saw, you know, the big the big example is like, let's say Lululemon, like before Lululemon came on the seen in the late 90s, yoga was a completely, I mean, I think only like 15 million Americans did yoga around 2000. It was seen as like niche and crunchy. And, you know, people were either wearing dance apparel or like kind of loose hemp hippie stuff.

20:35And so they really changed what it meant to be a girl who does, I say, I say woman, men do it too. But like, you know, that's really who changed that space. But change what it meant to be a woman who does yoga and it became urban and cool and attractive. And you just look at how many brands now have like big brands that kind of our spawn of Lulu, whether it's Aloe or Beyond Yoga, Biori even are all kind of reactions to Lulu. And so it was fascinating to me that like the big unlock felt like if you could if you could create something special enough that not only speaks to people who already do the thing, meaning like already play tennis.

21:16But if you can make people be like, oh, this is interesting. Why am I not playing a racket sport? Like I kind of want to be a part of this. And so there were like two things going on. One was like the positioning of it all, the story behind it, the things that make it feel a bit more fun and human and about connection and kind of emotional. I think a lot of direct-to-consumer brands get really value prop driven to the point that they almost feel soulless. And that's kind of like the special thing that luxury brands still get to do is really like speak to emotion. And at some point, like I was like, man, Spence has kind of like got a feeling to it.

21:52Like it's got to make people be like, ah, that's interesting. But at the same time, product wise, I felt like there was just a lot of like crummy, dry fit, unflattering cut, like tennis clothes out there. Or it was like, you know, not functional enough. It was like too much for the Instagram posed picture, like the pleated skirt that like is cute if you're not doing anything. But again, to my golf pros and tennis hoes reference, like it's just a little bit too on the nose. I felt like there wasn't anyone kind of taking that ethos of classic tennis when you've got a sport with so much history of the intersection of sport and style.

22:30Like it's kind of the original sport to be about fashion and sport at the same time. And yet like what I was seeing was either just like truly unstylish and like capital P performance or kind of a bit of a caricature. It was like almost like tennis cosplay. And I was like, man, there's just there's just an opportunity to use actual interesting, like innovative materials, but then use them in a way that feels really wearable and classic and not try hard. I think like you see a lot of try hard clothing in the tennis space, like the the v-neck sweater on the super posed girl. And I'm like, I've played tennis since I was four years old and I've never actually seen someone show up to a tennis court in that.

23:13So I just wanted to be more like, again, like take the roots of classic, like something that feels really tennis, but also is actually future looking and how it's made and to have it feel really wearable. You know, I never take notes during this, but I'm writing stuff down because I have so many things that I want to talk to you about from what you're saying. It's it's such a fun topic. So the first thing is you mentioned Lululemon. I think you could even go back to Nike. You can. I mean, the early deck, the first deck I made, the first deck I made during COVID, I made, I've made so many decks about Spence, it's embarrassing.

23:48But I had this like real light bulb moment, kind of in an early pandemic day, or I was sitting on my living room floor. And I was like, Oh, my God, you know, like Nike made it, quote unquote, normal to be a runner before Nike, no one just what it was so weird to be a runner. So that whole story is about that. And and then obviously, like Nike kind of has a few iterations because of like the intercept, like the addition of Michael Jordan and basketball and celebrity marketing and that, you know, that's a huge shift. But you're right. That initial like, what does it mean to be a runner and Phil Knight selling shoes out of the back of his car at, you know, at track meets and all that is so awesome and just like so cool.

24:29But then the second one was that like Lulu jump. And I was just like, man, who's done this for tennis? Yeah. So who are you buds with the Tracksmith guys? Because I could see them giving you advice or like, do you know them at all? You know, I've never met them. I've admired them from afar in that I think like the way they've seemed to go about building their business feels really responsible and focused. And I think they've got, you know, they'd have a really clear point of view. I've gotten to know Leigh Glendorf, who keeps a sub stack about. Oh, yeah. um and so she you know she was there for 10 years um in marketing and so we've we've chatted a bit um and then funny enough lauren our our design director came from tracksmith most recently so so we do have some tracksmith like you know that our trim supplier was the same you know we have some overlap and kind of that but i've never actually met their founders i think an active where it's interesting i mean i've been covering this this category since the since the kind of rise of DTC, I would say I became very interested in it as a fashion reporter when Outdoor Voices launched because it was the first time I ever bought, like I used to work out in my t-shirt from my like lacrosse t-shirt from high school.

25:46Hell yeah. Which I still sleep in all the time. This is so funny. My mom actually just found my middle school lacrosse sweatshirt that I wore, like it's like probably 25 years old or whatever. And I've like kind of ironically been wearing it around because it's got like the big sticks on the back and says Greeley on the back. And it's just like so dorky that it's awesome. So good. I love I love lacrosse. Such an aggressive sport. For sure. Alder Voices was the first time I was like, oh, I actually want to buy this stuff. And now I can't imagine not wearing performance gear when I'm working out.

26:17But the point being that like at that time, there were all these sort of challengers to Nike and it felt like no one had had an opportunity to really make a mark, but then something shifted and there was a realization. Maybe it's like the, I always talk about the fragmentation of culture, but that like there actually was a huge opportunity. And I think that opportunity is still so huge for like more players and active wear and all of that, but you have to start with a point of view in terms. So, so what do you see? My brain's kind of spinning. Cause one thing, I mean, this almost feels like state secrets but i one thing we talk about internally a bit is i think you know athleisure is the word that kind of get i hate that word but it you know a lot of people want to be like associate with athleisure with like lifestyle and how you live your life but i think the word we've thought about a lot that you don't hear brands use much anywhere is the idea of sportswear and the idea of like for me athleisure has a bit of a laziness to it whereas sportswear has this put togetherness and And I think like now we have an ability, you know, because we all a lot of us kind of live our lives in this intersection of like active and going about our life.

27:29And so like when I'm thinking about product for Spence and being focused, it's like everything has to make sense on a tennis court. Like if you anything in our assortment, like if it shows up on a tennis court and looks silly, like then it then it can't be in our assortment right now. Whereas I think some other brands, like you've got a Palm Society is cool, but like they do a lot of things that are truly, you know, more just regular button up shirts and that sort of thing. But I think I think thinking about like where you're going afterwards and like how you can style things differently. So like even I love that our little red mini skirt, like it honestly looks so cute styled with like a sweater and socks and loafers as a like completely non-tennis look, but it also makes sense on a tennis court.