The Art of Brand Awareness

12:55Lauren:So it's really fascinating. So you, as you said, you were on, you're on the other side of things and also really on the brand side. So your dad's like dealing in brandless product in some cases. What attracted you to brand development? And also like, how did you get into the agency world? Because you worked at, I believe, Wednesday with Jens Greed and Eric Tortstensen. Correct. for a while. And that's like sort of where you cut your teeth. But tell me how you ended up in like brand development and in the agency world, because it's so particular.

13:33Ian Schatzberg:Yeah, no, it's so so it probably does all stem a little bit from that experience with my family. And I didn't think we would start on that front, but with my dad, and I think like, because the manufacturing side of what they were in was so influenced by what was taking place with fashion at large, of course, I was just surrounded with, I used to open the trunk of my father's car when I was little and it would be littered with fashion magazines. And when they used to print WWD, there would just be, you know, hundreds and hundreds. The whole trunk was just full of them. So I was just reading this stuff all the time and interested in it.

14:08Ian Schatzberg:But for sure, I was interested in like the side of the business that was about emotion and story and brand and sort of like the irrational side, you know, not the side that was like cut from supply chain and production, but like, why would people desire something really irrationally and how this industry is so amazing at creating irrational desire around these items. And so I did not want to go into the kind of, you know, I knew I wanted to be kind of in the, in the category at large, but I sort of fell into the branding side and actually I started first and foremost as a web designer and I was designing websites for uh like Mark Jacobs's first website Tom Ford's first

14:55Lauren:website I mean I remember getting on a phone call was this create the group correct correct I was

14:59Ian Schatzberg:like oh yeah I know create the group yes I was at create the group I met them at when I moved to New York at a holiday party I emailed the founders and said I really want to work with you and I became very close with them and they sort of like you know set me out into the field and I was doing you know when Angela Arndt was at Burberry and and yeah and Tom Ford was doing his first website and he wanted it to look like his whole all of his references to be honest were like porn sites he was like I just want this to feel like a high-speed porn site and I was like okay like I had no idea I was literally out of university but it was it was kind of amazing and it was the frontier and um I was designing these sites and I was kind of immersed in it and And then I thought to myself, you know, I sort of saw the limitations a little bit of just being on the pure e-com side and thought to myself, I wonder what it's like to really work on the branding side.

15:47Ian Schatzberg:And I happened to meet Eric Torshenson and Jens Greed through a friend. They were super, super young at the time. I mean, we were all really, really young. And they were kind of just, you know, they were not starting out on their venture, but it was the early side of their venture. And I remember meeting them. I had broken my knee and I had a full leg cast on. but I said, God, you guys have this magazine industry. I love this magazine so much. Can I just work for you? And they said, sure, but we have no office in New York. And I said, it doesn't really matter. I just want to work for you. I think you guys are so at the sort of intersection of at the time, what was like a new idea of like fashion and pop culture or fashion and entertainment.

16:26Ian Schatzberg:They were really brilliant about seeing where the industry was going in that regard. so I got into branding and spent a long time working with them across a host of clients before I left the business was sold and I left to start my own company general idea but it was uh it was really an amazing kind of experience at that particular moment that was 2000 probably in 10 or 2011 when I started with them and I stayed with them for about seven years before I left. Yeah.

16:55Lauren:So that was sort of as fashion as pop culture peaked. Because if you could say the peak was like 2017, 2018, you could argue that. And they were working with everyone. They were working with Montclair, Calvin Klein, LVMH brands. What did you learn about how to make fashion feel like pop culture?

17:16Ian Schatzberg:I mean, I think basically at the time, like over the course of doing that agency, like at the onset of it, it was this kind of convergence of like now what has become so commonplace of like fashion as a vehicle for entertainment was still really like a nascent idea. Like I remember sort of like when we were working on H &M work with Lana Del Rey and Beyonce, it was still kind of like the early days of thinking about the intersection between like celebrity and the world of fashion. And I think like when Justin Bieber did Calvin Klein, I mean, obviously Calvin Klein has a long history of working with celebrity, but it all felt like the way in which the category operated was almost like bifurcated, which was like you had sort of like high European fashion, which was very art director led and very sort of like classical almost in its approach to sort of like photographers and fashion models and image making.

18:16Ian Schatzberg:And then you sort of saw that, like, you know, as social became more prominent in our lives, everybody had a window onto this world. And we used to say, it's like, you're not really competing anymore with fashion houses. You're really just competing with Netflix. And that was like still, I mean, that was still pretty early. I think now people would say, yeah, I totally agree with it. But I think at the time, that thesis was still pretty radical, that like you could choose to spend your time watching, God knows what the show of that time was, Homeland or something, or you could choose to go onto YouTube or Instagram and watch fashion content.

18:51Ian Schatzberg:And I think that sort of like access that these platforms created really shaped the brands more towards how do we really tell entertaining stories and bring popular culture into the brand in a larger way, in a way that also made them much more accessible to a customer who was maybe not a fashion engaged customer. So kind of like the sort of emergence of celebrity culture within fashion and kind of almost like the opening up of the aperture of what the industry was allowed to participate in was really taking place because essentially everybody was starting to tune in. And that was exciting at the time.

19:31Ian Schatzberg:I mean, I think we were just thinking about casting and content and film in a way that was a little bit closer to what would it look like if it was coming out of Hollywood. And, you know, it was a great one, Ron. And as you said, we got to work with amazing brands on it. And the thesis felt very novel. Now, I think everybody participates in this way. I mean, I think the whole marketing and branding landscape within fashion has become basically akin to these brands are like Hollywood Studios and they're producing films. And I don't mean just a film like as in a show. I mean like every season is a filmic production of content and story.

20:11Ian Schatzberg:And I think the category is totally there, but it wasn't always. And I think at that time we were really switched on to it.

20:19Lauren:One more question about that era of your life. Did Victoria's Secret come up a lot? Because I was just thinking about the fact that they did, they live streamed, First of all, they made the runway show into media. And that was a sort of example of taking from high fashion and making it into something mass. But they live streamed their first show in 2000. And just thinking about Jens ending up being a co-founder and CEO of Skims. And Victoria's Secret was like the first brand to really do that. Like think of a brand as media or a consumer brand of media. I don't know if it I'm just curious because I know that Jens interviewing him so many times over the years.

21:04He thinks a lot about victory or he thought a lot about victory when they were building skins in terms of growth and and things like that.

21:12Lauren:Just curious if it was ever a reference point for you all or you talked about it or or was it like too far in the past to really relate it to what was happening then? Because it was irrelevant by the time you all really got going.

21:24Ian Schatzberg:Yeah, I don't know if it was like, I don't know if it was like a heavily discussed reference point. I mean, we were definitely like, it definitely came up at junctions with Eric and Jens. I think the thing, the thing I think that was fascinating was I think that like, the Americans were actually really, you know, because the Americans didn't come from a savoir-faire, craft kind of background, they really had to build these marketing concepts in order to sort of export these ideas to the world. And so I think that like the Americans plus more of this sort of like contemporary accessible price point brands were quicker to move this way.

22:01Ian Schatzberg:So I think like Victoria's Secrets, you know, H &M, obviously Swedish, but still kind of like playing at a fast price point. And it was like they sort of had to take the codes of fashion and popularize them in a much bigger way. So I think like whether that was like all the celebrity collaborations that H &M pioneered at the time and sort of bringing fashion to popular culture in that regard, or what Victoria's Secrets did with kind of like a high fashion expression made relevant for the American population in the world at a broader capacity. I think the reference points that we often looked at, or I think the things that we often got traction with were actually these kind of more accessibly price point brands that we're trying to think about, like, well, how do you take these codes and export them in the biggest way possible?

22:45Ian Schatzberg:And that's not just going to be like the picture, but it's going to be the idea of like, we're going to turn these concepts into media machines. And we're going to really, you know, produce at a high level, because we need to talk to the widest amount of people possible. And now I think the high fashion brands are sort of pressured to talk to the widest amount of people as possible as well. And they're sort of they've adopted this behavior. But I really think this idea of fashion and entertainment kind of came from more of the popularly priced companies that need it to sort of figure out, like, how do we touch as many people as possible with our content and be as broad reaching as we as we possibly can be?

23:24Ian Schatzberg:So I think Victoria's Secrets was among one of those, I think, in that price positioning and that category that was like a reference point in terms of the mediafication and the entertainment theses that were running through businesses. is.

23:38Lauren:Yeah, it's interesting from your perspective, because you need to have the sensitivity to understand that bit of it. And then also the way the Europeans think about things, which is they lead with creativity. It all kind of comes back to the same thing, but they lead with a different intention. And so as a person who's working from the outside in with a lot of these brands. It must require a ton of like EQ to be able to communicate to them why they need to do this and how on both sides. Yeah.

24:19Ian Schatzberg:I mean, I think the goal of a great marketing and branding agency is to help really sort of be highly sensitive to the truth of the brand that you're working with and help them to sort of achieve the biggest reach and relevance they can possibly achieve is to help tell their story at the largest scale that they have permission to tell it. And I think the thing that I find so interesting about the business and kind of why I love it is that like it just requires a hypersensitivity to the codes of the brand you're working with and the people that you're working with. Because there is no one way, I think, especially now to export your message and to touch people.

24:56Ian Schatzberg:And I think in a lot of ways, like what's taken place in the marketing and branding, you know industry is like you know it's become highly complex now obviously because like if you rewind you know to the sort of traditional madman era of this category like it was you know brand designer art director print output now you just have so many different channels to tell your story and there's so many different ways to behave in terms of how you connect with people that I think the goal of a firm such as myself or kind of the work that I do is to really help understand like, what is the truth of the story you want to tell and your brand codes?

25:36Ian Schatzberg:And what are the mediums that are going to most powerfully communicate that? And that is no longer I think like, oh, you know, we do a show and we make it we make an ad campaign. I think it's like, it's everything from, you know, we make a mini series to we work with influencers to we We have this crazy pop-up strategy. And I think there's no one-size-fits-all behavior for any business. Certain businesses achieve, I think, emotional connection with their customers through very, very different modes of behavior. And it makes, I think, the job of kind of unearthing how to tell that story intriguing but also very difficult because it's not like we just kind of funnel everything into predefined mediums anymore.

26:21Yeah.

26:22Lauren:And I assume that a lot of the executives working at these companies are very uncreative and risk averse, even though like this might be the time to take the biggest risks because everything is sort of up in the air. But what I've found with a lot of executives in fashion is that they kind of just do what everyone else, if they see one celebrity is popping for a brand or seems like they're popping for a brand, they want to work with them. there's not a lot of um let's see what's right for us it is a lot of your work kind of being like you have to do this differently kind of telling them that they need to be brave and and do things

27:07Ian Schatzberg:differently if they want to be effective i mean i think we we talk about the idea of bravery so much because it is so hard to be i think brave especially when you have sort of the macro as it is and the pressure on these kind of executives. But I think the thing is, is like, I think it's about sort of being brave and searching for repeatable behaviors that are true to your business. So I think it's like, I think what everyone is trying to find is like, again, what are the formats that make most sense to tell their story? So for instance, it's like, you know, Ralph Lauren is amazing at world building.

27:42Ian Schatzberg:Like I would argue that like, most people don't really ralph lauren's not really an advertising driven company it's really like a world building driven company so like the campaigns quote-unquote that ralph produces i would argue are not really what like they're it's not the tip of the pyramid for their behavior i think um you know what they did for christmas and the pop-up strategy around christmas it's like environments and the world building dimension of bringing physical theater to life is the repeatable formula that builds emotional connection within the Ralph universe. So it's like, that's what they do so exceptionally well.

28:18Ian Schatzberg:And so I think like when they stage these massive Christmas kind of pop ups, and everyone on the internet decodes them and is obsessed with them, it's because they're kind of leaning into their truth, which is like, I don't think you see Ralph Lauren going and making filmic, celebrity driven advertising, because it's not their truth. It's like they're world builders. And so they use the physical domain to really tell their story in the most profound way possible. And so I think really that sort of endeavor often is kind of looking for, you know, what is the, what is your X factor in terms of how you build that emotional connection around the product?

28:54Ian Schatzberg:And then how do you kind of export that? And I think that's just the complexity. And yes, of course, I think executives like kind of go to maybe where the trough is, but I think the goal is to sort of like be firm and figure out like how do you how do you bring your truth to the market in the most compelling way possible and so i think those are just anecdotal examples i think of like two radically different behaviors you know um that work for those businesses

29:22Lauren:it's interesting it's bringing me back to a question it's it's sort of an aside and then i want to ask a bigger question about brand but both of those brands i are are fascinating and And we could talk about them for each dedicate, like multiple podcasts to them. Someone needs to do a series on each of them. But the point being, the runway show, because I was thinking about Ralph in particular, and you're talking about the print campaigns. And it's true, like they've had some good polo campaigns in recent years, but it's not like, damn, that campaign was amazing. Like the Versace campaign the other day.

29:59Lauren:Correct. It was, it's not about that. It's about this going to the store or when you go to a Ralph Lauren fashion show, what it's really about is if they're going to remake Ralph's in whatever venue or they've had fashion shows at Ralph's and it's about Ralph's. It's about the polo lounge, the polo club. Is it the polo? No, the polo bar. Sorry. It's about the polo bar. You know, it's not about it's about remaking the polo bar or Ralph's or or what have you. I was in Paris for Thanksgiving one year and we went to Ralph's for Thanksgiving. Like that was the thing that we would do. Not even talking about those brands in particular.

30:36Lauren:Do you think runway shows for these very large brands or for any brands really? Like, do you think they all need to be doing runway shows?

30:46Ian Schatzberg:no no i i yeah i mean it's it's a great question i think it's like i think that um

30:55Ian Schatzberg:no i i honestly think the answer is is no to that because i think that like again i think it's about sort of like and it sounds like i don't mean to for it to sound like vague but i think it's like if it's the if it's like the core dna and the truth of your brand to put on a runway show i think that is like then it makes sense so it's like i look at like you know the european houses and it's like there is history and heritage to the runway show and there is a built-in audience that is fashion inclined and interested in those shows and therefore they are culturally relevant as a result of the history that they have producing and creating those moments i think other brands that dabble in them do not have the equity in the show.

31:43Ian Schatzberg:It's not what the customer sort of inherently looks for in what they're doing. And that doesn't mean they can't do it. But I think it's about, again, sort of like finding the permission set that you have as a business in the customer's mind as well, and then leaning into that. So I think like, I talk about this a lot with American brands, because I think obviously the American runway is, has kind of its challenges. But it's like, I think that, you know, I don't think that the when Celine debuts the new runway show, you have a global audience that is like inherently interested in that you have a fashion inclined customer who is looking to see what's coming down that runway.

32:22Ian Schatzberg:I think the American brands don't have the legacy and the history of producing those shows and the customer is not inherently there. So I think actually, they're fighting an uphill battle to drive awareness into a vehicle of storytelling that the customer is not naturally inclined to engage with them in. So like, you can do it for sure. But I just think it's like, it's not going to be a glide because you're trying to ask your consumer to engage with you in a format that they don't naturally engage that brand in. And that's what I think a little bit about this idea of like, going to your truth and trying to build something that's like, that you have an x factor to deliver against.

33:02Ian Schatzberg:And so, so, so yeah, I think the answer to your question is like, I think they serve a role for the brands that have the right permission to do it. And I think they, they serve less of a role for the brands that don't. Yeah.

33:12Lauren:It's so fascinating because even though they're all about marketing now, none of them are actually for the trade. You, they need to be rooted in the idea that they served a purpose at one point and nowhere was that clearer than Couture where they still do serve a purpose. And it was the first time that I was at Couture that I was really paying attention to the VICs and how they are doing those shows for the VICs. Of course, there is marketing involved and it's important. And I think honestly, more than ever, WWD had a story about trends at Couture. I was like, who has trends at Couture? It's so fascinating.

33:51Lauren:but the reality of it is like, that's a business. It might not be a$10 billion business, but it's a real business. And so the validity makes it feel better from a marketing perspective. So it's like getting to that truth. The question I wanted to ask you, that's a bigger picture question and it parallels. I interviewed the comms guy, Jesse Darius. I don't know if he'd probably be annoyed that I caught him a comms guy, but this morning and his episode's going to, your episodes running this week, his episodes going to run in a few weeks because it's very evergreen. I feel like yours is good because we're about to go into New York fashion week.

34:28Lauren:But the thing we talked about in the conversations are different, but parallel is the idea of brand. And you sent me this incredible, you're basically notes of what you, you were interested in chatting about, which was so helpful and much more prep than I ever do. And, And I'm grateful. But you said the brand renaissance. And I'm just curious, like the thing I said to Jesse and anyone who listens to this should listen to the Jesse episode, too. I think they're complimentary. But if you do a survey of any generation, like one survey is going to say. this generation isn't brand loyal, whatever. The next survey is going to say this generation is more brand loyal than ever.

35:16As a brand marketer, does brand matter long-term?

35:23Lauren:Is there brand loyalty? Are brands going to last as long? What is your philosophy around brand? Yeah.

35:30Ian Schatzberg:I mean, I think that brands are basically vessels and symbols of meaning that people carry. And I think that brands are as old as time. I mean, I think that like the nature of the, of the human experience is about signs and signals and adorning yourself with things that are, that communicate something about who you are. You know, I think like someone was asking me the question the other day, like, is picture making going to be as relevant in the era of AI? And I said, I said, every generation, I think every era deals with its kind of upheaval and sort of, you know, it's like with the printing press or the camera, it's like it sends us into a moment of kind of crisis.

36:13Ian Schatzberg:But at the end of the day, I think like we've been putting symbols on the walls and caves and brands are basically like that is human nature is to sort of like adorn ourselves and to project meaning. And so I think brands are as relevant as they'll always be. And I sometimes when I read these, like they're less loyal and they're so and so. It's like I think people search for meaning in what they build around them and that brands basically are the super layer above the object that communicate a story. And I think that is like fundamental to the human experience. So I don't really pay attention to a lot of the like Gen Z doesn't really care about brands.

36:54Ian Schatzberg:And it's all it's like, I think that like, we are creatures of storytelling and brands are the other vessel for that. So that's my, that's my thought on on brand, you know, and I think brand has evolved and changed in the way in which that story is kind of constructed. But I think at the end of the day, it's about a super layer around something that is like potent.

37:18Lauren:How do you get that message across when the communication tools are so fragmented? You can be on TikTok. You can be on Instagram. You can be on YouTube. The example, I guess, is that there are all these YouTube creators that none of us have ever heard of that have like 4 billion followers and$10 million business or$100 million businesses selling burgers. that like I've never seen this person's face.

37:51Ian Schatzberg:Yeah, I mean, it's a, I think that is kind of like the question of the moment for marketers is like, how do you do that? But I think like it does kind of come back to like fundamental truths of like what that brand represents in its most potent form. So like, I think a lot, like I had the privilege of working for many, many, many years with Remo Ruffini at Montclair for about almost like, I don't know, decade. And we, and I think he was, you know, know, he's such an amazing brand builder, but like he would really talk a lot about the mountain, like the mountain and the role of the mountain is this kind of, you know, mythical symbol that sits at the center of Montclair.

38:29Ian Schatzberg:And I think like that is very, very powerful as an idea. And I think, you know, paying homage to the mountain, which I think they do so incredibly well and go back to and go back to all the time. When you see their most recent campaign Warmer Together, it's really about like friendship and relationships. And it doesn't feel like inherently connected to the idea of the mountain, but they are so good, I think, at like reminding you about this kind of mythology of winter and wrapping everything kind of around that, that even when they play outside of that, they still kind of bring you back to the core of their brand.

39:07Ian Schatzberg:And I think that the best brands, again, are really centered on those kind of those truths and those fundamentals. And so like, yes, you need to have your like TikTok and influencer strategy and you need to kind of like think about how that works with your seasonal collection layer. But I think the brands that are the strongest really kind of always find a way to go back to what is the fundamental core that we are going, that is like mythical about us, whether that's like the idea of the American dream or, you know, with Ralph or the idea of the mountain with Montclair or, you know, it's funny.

39:41Ian Schatzberg:I worked for a long time with Swarovski and Giovanna as they kind of rebrand Swarovski. And so much of what we talked about there at the center of that rebrand was imagination. Because like the fundamental truth of crystal was its imaginative capability that like you could create these amazing things with it at something that felt very decorative and excessive almost at time, but was highly accessible because of the material that it sort of allows you to imagine in the biggest way possible. And like when you look at that work, like imagination is really at the core, I think, of where she took that brand and wonderment.

40:16Ian Schatzberg:And I think those like, again, it's almost like what I was saying about the cave paintings, not sound philosophical, but like those are sort of fundamental things that I think like people recognize, like the power of wonder, the power of the mountain, the power of the American dream. And I think the brands that are the most successful always kind of ladder back up to those truths.

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41:44Lauren:I want to go through a couple stock market success stories of the past few years and get your take on how the marketing has either been like integral to it or maybe not at all or reflective of it, but maybe we could start with Abercrombie because I think Abercrombie was in its 1990s iteration. It was all about brand and all about this idea of like really clearly understanding what it was. You either loved it or hated it, but like you knew what it was. And Sarah Shapiro had a piece this week about sort of what comes up must come down. And of course, they had like a huge boom and now they're recalibrating for a new normal.

42:30Lauren:But the huge boom Abercrombie had in the last few years was ignoring their past and deciding that we're just going to make stuff based on TikTok trends, like almost like a boutique version of H &M or something or Zara. What do you think about that kind of approach? And like as a brand marketer, because the story there is that the CMO and the chief product officer, the chief merchandiser, the product person and the marketer were really close. They worked in tandem. But that to me is like an anti-brand brand story. I'm curious what you think about it.

43:09Ian Schatzberg:Yeah, it's fascinating. I knew right when you were kind of leading there that that was the brand you were going to bring up because I've been watching it and following it. And I think like, you know, it's kind of amazing. I remember way back in the day going to the Abercrombie campus, kind of at the end of the Mike Jeffries era and sort of seeing the campus that they built and then sort of watching the revolution that took place there. Exactly. I think it was like an anti-brand. But I have two thoughts on it. One is I think that there is, look, there's oxygen in the market, I think, for speed, trend, and digital native content that basically just meets a consumer demand at the time.

43:47Ian Schatzberg:I think that Abercrombie has totally capitalized on that and has done an amazing job, exactly as you say, about the connectivity between hitting the right product, distributing it through the right sort of TikTok channels, and getting in front of a younger customer. and that drove their business. I think that it is, doesn't drive infinite growth, long-term growth, because I think it, I felt it was going to stall out that formula. Like I don't, I wouldn't put my chips on the fact that there is longevity in that model because I think it is so dependent upon a sort of narrow lane of operating between digital influencer and product that it doesn't sort of offer a globally expansive kind of worldview that allows it to continue to kind of scale.

44:38Ian Schatzberg:And I've been wondering when Abercrombie would kind of hit that moment, because I think, you know, back in the day, I think Abercrombie, and maybe, you know, I don't, I know their business from afar, but not intimately. Like, I think back in the day when, you know, at its zenith, Abercrombie could sell you anything. They could sell you fragrances, They could have sold you homewares. They could have sold anything. I mean, it was so powerful, that kind of worldview that they had built. Now I think Abercrombie can sell you very accessibly priced sort of fast fashion apparel. And I don't know how that kind of grows into like the next layer of their world because it's a kind of finite zone of operating.

45:22Ian Schatzberg:So I had kind of thought that that model would reach its potential ceiling. And I kind of think Abercrombie is now faced with a sort of question around like, what does brand now mean again for them in a way that is not just speed to market digital influencer approach?

45:43Lauren:Do you think that they end up going back?

45:45Ian Schatzberg:Yes. I think they have a brand problem. I think they have to actually figure out now how to restitch an emotional brand layer into their business. I think, look, they've been hugely successful. So I give them tons of credit for that success. But I think it's like, I don't think it, I think they need to re-examine now. How does the logo become a bigger symbol of meaning that people want to aspire to and not just trade on speed and experience? accessible. And I think I actually kind of like give Aritzia, I think Aritzia is kind of amazing in the sense that I think that they play a similar game with trends, speed to market, digital influencer, but I think they have increasingly built a brand layer on top of it that kind of has, you know, I would put them in a similar zone as Abercrombie, but I would argue the trajectory of their brand development is stronger.

46:42Ian Schatzberg:There's a stronger sensibility in it. And I think women kind of, you know, there's cachet to wearing a super puff jacket or the Aritzia logo in a way that I don't think there is with Abercrombie.

46:53Lauren:It's really fascinating. Abercrombie, call Ian.

46:57Ian Schatzberg:Just kidding.

46:58Lauren:I don't think you have time. Let's go through. There are two other ones I wanted to talk about. Burberry, which is very early in its sort of repositioning or I don't know if repositioning is the right word, but like positioning and their campaigns have a lot of people ask me about them and ask me to write about them. I've heard people in the UK say that their sort of video campaigns since the refresh with the kind of return to being an outerwear brand and really focusing on that, someone said they're like Waitrose commercials, which to me is a compliment, but it's very British, very British humor, even the sort of the way the video looks, the lighting, that type of thing.

47:46It feels like Marks and Spencer's Waitrose, like very, very, very British.

47:52Lauren:And I like that and understand it. But I'm curious, like looking at the sort of map that they're creating there, what do you think of how they're approaching brand communication? Because it was so muddled for so long.

48:07Ian Schatzberg:Yeah. So I love what you said there about it feeling like a Waitrose commercial. I mean, I think that's so great. And I love it. You know, I think you could, I think it's, I think what Josh Schulman and Jeremy have done there is I'm huge fans of theirs. I think, you know, I really give Josh a tremendous amount of props and had the privilege of working with him in other instances. But I think first and foremost, Burberry is a great example of like, I think what they've done is return to their truth. You know, I think it's always Burberry Weather as the kind of tagline that they created and building the brand world around kind of doing the kind of reboot of the business, going back to the truth of the product and outerwear and going back to the truth of the brand of Britishness in weather is kind of, I think, a perfect alignment between product and brand marketing.

48:57Ian Schatzberg:And I think they've done a fantastic job at kind of working at all levels of the funnel. So I think they have great video that's basically commercials that they are now producing down to sort of mid funnel and lower funnel, like video touch, like just sort of impressionistic video vibes about Britishness and kind of British humor. And I think the thing about I've heard I've heard my British friends say, oh, we don't really love it. And I think the reality is Burberry is not selling to the British. If that's what they were doing, it'd be a much smaller business. And I think what they have done is they've kind of done a little bit of what we were talking about at the onset of this around kind of the Victoria's Secret model in regard to they've kind of taken the truth of their brand and they've tried to export it to the widest audience as possible.

49:46Ian Schatzberg:So they've leaned into tropes that are inherently British, but not so British that you don't understand it. So the Big Ben, the night, the Christmas dinner, like we as Americans can digest that even if we've never even been to Britain, because they're kind of playing a little bit with cliche, but they're doing it in a tasteful way. And I think that you have to do that at scale because you have to walk the line between being totally accessible to people so that they understand it while also staying elevated. And so I think it is kind of a perfect case study in people who art director friends of mine said before they did the rebrand, they really loved the first Burberry campaigns, which were shot up in the north.

50:35Ian Schatzberg:But they were almost like campaigns for art directors. I would say to them, like, of course, you of course, you love it. They're like art director campaigns that are highly stylistic intended for a niche audience. And I think now what they've done with their coding of Britishness is kind of made that idea as accessible as possible. And so the Brits might say, hey, it's a little cliche because I don't really want to see tropes of my own culture serve to me on a platter. It's silly. But I think to the world, we're like, wow, that's so cool. Like, I want to have a British holiday. And I would argue that like I was having this discussion with an LVMH executive on Friday who we were talking about one of the French houses and he was saying, you know, if you've spent time in Paris, you know, it looks nothing like what works exporting to the world as an idea of Paris.

51:26Ian Schatzberg:In fact, most Parisians don't want to walk around in tourist-filled restaurants, tranching on the streets, standing in front of the Eiffel Tower with a million people taking pictures of it or in front of, you know. But what we are creating is a little bit of an Emily-like, Emily in Paris-like depiction of Paris to sell to the world. And I actually thought that was so brilliant, which is like the best marketers are close to the truth, but understand how to export it in a way that is accessible to the widest populace of the world. So I would argue like Burberry's rebrand is a little bit like the Emily in Paris of Britishness.

52:05Ian Schatzberg:And yeah, it's going to take some people off because it's you could argue it. But actually, I think it really works. And I think where brands trip themselves up is, is they actually get too much inside of their own head. And there's too much of a focus on, well, it has to be cool or it has to be intellectual. But really, the things that work at scale are have to be kind of a reduction of an essence to something that is broad. It's interesting because I think this is a key to why Celine seems to be working because it is towing the line between being a cliche of what like an a Parisian dress is like and actually what a Parisian

52:45Lauren:dress is like. And so all the people in Europe I talk to really like it. A lot of French people like it. They're into it because it has an American-ness because Michael comes from it's like an it's like the Spiegel catalog. in France or something. It's, I love the, but it's an interesting, and obviously this isn't, that's not a$10 billion brand. It's a$3 billion or whatever, but there is, it's really towing the line between being a cliche and the people who are the cliche enjoying it or what have you.

53:19Ian Schatzberg:Yeah, I totally agree with you. And I think it's a really hard line to, it's really hard to walk that line. I would say it's one of the hardest things to kind of to define that and i think oftentimes when i work with businesses it's like the hardest thing to do is to get to a simple is to is to really reduce and really reduce into something i think that people can digest and i think that fashion is an industry that like revels in the complexity and the intellectualism of it but i think these brands are very very big and they need to kind of find those they need to find those expressions so i think whether it's Burberry or what you say about Celine, like they are kind of walking that they are kind of walking in that space.

54:02Ian Schatzberg:Prada does not. We always say Prada is one of the few brands that can that walks in complexity and does it at scale. And it's kind of amazing that they can achieve that. But I think they're really an outlier.

54:11Lauren:And do you think that's because that's true to their brand? Correct. She is a complex person. Correct.

54:17Ian Schatzberg:Thinking fashion. I think, you know, I think that's one of the best lines ever. They don't talk. It's like on their Instagram. And I think it's so genius. But the truth of it is it is a brand about complexity. And I think it's one of the few that works at scale in that regard.

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55:35Lauren:Ladies and gentlemen, welcome aboard Air France Business Cabin. Here, every detail matters in elevating your journey. From priority access to your arrival, to menus created by Michelin star chefs, high-speed Wi-Fi powered by Starlink, or a mattress topper designed by a leading luxury hotel. Thoughtful touches, in the air and on the ground, all crafted with your well-being in mind. Air France Business Cabin, the art of travel elevated. Elegance is a journey. Air France. See conditions at airfrance.us. What do you think about, I've been writing about this a bit. this sort of idea that fashion imagery, especially at the higher end where there are the standards, there's like higher standards or different standards for fashion marketing, has become too referential, too using the same photographers, too uncreative.

56:32Lauren:I think the Stephen Meisel Versace, and I want to hear what you thought of the Stephen Meisel Versace campaign, because what I thought was amazing about that campaign, and you might be able to articulate this better than me, was that Stephen Meisel was shooting Versace in the 90s and forever ago. He's one of these photographers who is very in demand, doesn't work as much as like a David Sims or a Juergen Teller or whatever. He's less, he's, I don't want to say pickier, but just not as available. But the campaign that they did for Dario Vitale's first and last collection was very much inspired by an Avedon campaign, Versace campaign from 1982.

57:12Lauren:That was like a pile up of people, which I also thought the 1982 one must've been so interesting with like AIDS was just like coming to be. And there's like a pile up of humans on this campaign of this Italian brand. That's like very, it's interesting, but, but back to, he clearly was referencing that. And yet, and all these campaigns that come out now are just like references of old campaigns and blah, blah, blah. And yet it felt like so emotional and alive. And I don't know if it'll end up being the best campaign of the season, but for me, it was like, wow, this campaign. And it once again made me think, I can't believe he's not, he's done there.

57:52Lauren:But I'm curious as a marketer, what you thought of it. And if it was, if you felt it was as effective as it felt like to me.

58:01Ian Schatzberg:Can I ask you a question back? Why do you think they shot three campaigns?

58:06Lauren:you mean with the young designer they released three campaigns at once so it was

58:12Ian Schatzberg:frank laban steven mysle and there was another one and they all came out on the same day yes but you're keying into the mysle pictures but there's three there's three campaigns that

58:22Lauren:all launched at the same time that i think had to do with there was something i was i was with an executive yesterday for lunch who said that that she thought that it was interesting that they were layering in younger photographers and then there was also the stuff that came out a few weeks ago with like that young female photographer and that stuff is not part of this campaign it's supposed to be like in conversation i forget what they called it um it's conversations or something yes um i don't know the my zel one is the thing that that got me yeah yeah i mean to be honest

59:04Ian Schatzberg:please i don't have a strong opinion on it i thought it was i thought the i thought it was an arresting picture but and i think he's an i think he's an incredible talent and i really like the runway fine that's kind of how i felt just same yeah fine okay i think maybe the emotion is

59:27Lauren:around all the drama around what's going on with him and if you're if you're if you're able to

59:34Ian Schatzberg:compartmentalize like many men are um i'm a very emotional person but yeah yeah but i i yeah i I don't know. I really I like his I like his work a lot. So I don't say it because I have again, I think he's he's I think what he he achieved and not to go into the kind of industry talk around it, but like going there and kind of knowing maybe what he knew and all that stuff. I thought he was a really brave and like, I think what an amazing kind of character to go out. And now everybody knows his name, even if it was potentially tumultuous and there was writing on the wall that they had other who knows.

1:00:12But I don't know.

1:00:14Ian Schatzberg:Yeah, the camp, the Mizell thing, I thought it was super nice. You know, I don't think it had that. I actually am like, I didn't really think about the original picture in the context of AIDS and how powerful that must have been. And when you made that comment, I thought to myself, wow, I imagine, yeah, that must have been really charged. I really have a hard time seeing an image in today's media landscape as something that is like, makes me highly emotional or highly engaged. I just don't like when I saw it on Instagram, I thought, yeah, cool. And then I kind of, I kind of moved on and maybe it just like where I was at that moment.

1:00:52Ian Schatzberg:But I think it's so hard, I think now for, for brands to make imagery in the way that imagery used to cut through. So I think that like whether it's referential or not referential, I think that like a picture, a standalone picture does not have the power of what it historically had. And I think that like so it left me feeling like really cool. Want to see where he goes with this, you know?

1:01:19Lauren:So do you think that brands spend too much money hiring these big photographers and focusing on the end celebrities and focusing on these campaigns when there is all this other stuff going on that they should be like using their resources in different ways in many cases?

1:01:37Ian Schatzberg:I think so. I think that like, I think the future of image making is video. And I think the future art directors that will be kind of, you know, we'll talk about now will be people that are somewhat like impressionistic video makers who can brand a company through the lens of short film. and and sort of like you know like that's kind of like i think the feed and and content now is like in flickers of moving of moving images and worlds and i think that like it's very hard for a picture to build that in its entirety and so i'm much more interested in brands that that kind of bring multiple levels of sensibilities through video to kind of world build on an ongoing basis versus saying here is the campaign and here is the picture.

1:02:30Ian Schatzberg:You know, I think I'm super interested in like the Jonathan Anderson rebrand and I think what Jonathan and Jenny have done there and kind of, and the world building kind of all the qualities of it, albeit less video based is super intriguing to me, but I don't think that like the single image has the power. And I think one of the things that I think businesses really struggle with is like everybody has finite dollars and I kind of love to get into this discussion with marketers and businesses, because I think the costs associated with producing those pictures is still so significant that you really have to decide where you're going to lay your chips down.

1:03:07Ian Schatzberg:And I don't know if going out and spending now at the level on those singular assets gets you the world building kind of texture that is kind of needed now for these companies to exist on an ongoing basis. I think it's kind of a old school model, which will never go away, especially at the high fashion level because the picture will always be very important but I have a hard time ever saying yeah this picture changed my relationship it really grabbed my attention like I want to it's just not the way I think we engage in the world that we engage now as a as a waterfall of lots of things coming to us yeah I think that Jonathan Jonathan's approach

1:03:50Lauren:of the kinds of people he casts in things, whether it's Tim Blanks or Margarita Missoni in a lookbook or something, or Sue Kroll in a Loewe campaign, that adds something of like, there's a reason to think about it.

1:04:04Ian Schatzberg:Correct, there's a world there. You feel all these inputs, inputs, inputs, inputs, inputs. And I think in a world where you scroll your phone, literally, whatever they were saying, where television is your iPhone, it's all about a series of constant sort of inputs and character building. And that I think is like the opposite of singular image creation. So anyways, that's not my comment on Versace. Maybe more philosophical about just like media, but kudos to Dario and all he's done for sure.

1:04:37Lauren:Yeah, yes, it's fabulous. So this has been so fun. I wanna do a quick round, quick fire round because we've been chatting for a long time, but there's a bunch of stuff we did not discuss. One thing I'm curious to know about is, do you think brands use data in the correct way? Do you think they are afraid of data and market research and all of that stuff? Do you think they need to use it more or less or not more efficiently or less efficiently? What do you think relationship with market research in the fashion world,

1:05:17Ian Schatzberg:how does it need to change i think that it's um market research is hugely constructive and i think that like most fashion companies have a sort of you know somewhat of a sort of potential allergy to it because it is an instinctual driven business and i don't think i think that makes sense but i do think that like understanding customer segments and understanding kind of where your audience is and where your audience spends their time and what they want from you is something that I think businesses should be very attentive to. So I don't think you should like, I've seen sort of market research where I don't think you should like design your products or your creativity into like archetypes that are determined from market research per se, maybe.

1:06:04Ian Schatzberg:But what I'm sort of interested more is like, can you get good insights and segmentation that help you understand like who actually is looking at this stuff? Because I think it will inform the way people go about their communications process. And I think in general, people have a lower, there's not a high propensity towards doing that research, getting that research and really examining that research. I was sat in a meeting once with a great designer and they looked at all the research. They said, great, we're going to throw that out now. And I was like, okay, I mean, I laughed and I was like, we could throw that out.

1:06:38Ian Schatzberg:But I was like, there are probably kernels of things there that are going to make you just more creative. Yeah. So, yeah.

1:06:46Lauren:Okay. It's fascinating because I do think people fear it and don't know how to use it. And so they need people like you to know how to use it. On the subject of not knowing how to use things, celebrity. There's so much money put into celebrity now. Every fragrance campaign as a celebrity used to not be like that. So much put investment into the red carpet. Perhaps there needs to be more at certain houses. But I was thinking I'm going to do a piece at some point soon about the other LVMH brand celebrity strategies when you're not Dior or Louis Vuitton and how do you manage for that. But what do you think, like, how will celebrity be a part of brand building in the future?

1:07:40Lauren:We kind of can see how it works right now.

1:07:44Ian Schatzberg:I think celebrity will continue to play a huge role. I mean, I think the reality is, is like the scale of these businesses require fame around them and people who have large audiences and kind of are at the pinnacle of pop culture. So I don't think celebrity is going anywhere. I think what's interesting to me is brands that create an alchemy around the way in which they cast talent. So I think what is what I think is boring and over is endorsement, which is like, you know, I've sat in so many meetings. It's like where you just look at like reams and reams of casting and it's kind of like who's available and who can we get and who can we put in this and how are we going to kind of, you know, shoot them, produce them, make something with them.

1:08:29Ian Schatzberg:I think really what you want to see is you want to see twofold. I think what's intriguing is like, how do you find a talent that has some sort of like cultural insight that you can tap into? Like, how do you find someone who has a project going on that is somewhat aligned with the interests of your brand and sort of build something together with them. So it feels hyper-specific and relevant. I was like thinking about this thing that we did with Fendi last year before Cat's Eye kind of blew up, but we knew that like there was a tremendous amount of internet fandom around the new haircuts that Cat's Eye hadn't released.

1:09:09Ian Schatzberg:And so we made a campaign with them and it was really all about revealing their hair because their fans really wanted to see what their new hairstyles were and had it publicly revealed it. And it drove the highest video views in history for Fendi, just that, because we knew the fandom existed. And so I think in that instance, there is like some sort of connectivity that you can key into with the talent that makes it more potent. I think the other thing is, is about kind of what you were saying about with Jonathan, it's like, it's about world building with talent and creating the right alchemy of people.

1:09:40Ian Schatzberg:Because I think that that is, you want to see people bump into each other who may not make sense together, who build idiosyncratic kind of texture within the brand that sort of create a sense of like a character in a world. And I think that like using celebrity as a way of character building is like a fascinating approach as you think about kind of casting. And oftentimes I think celebrity is like a blunt instrument. It's like, who's the biggest? Who aligns? How do we get them? Let's go. And that I think kind of is boring. So not going anywhere. but definitely requires, I think, like increasing scrutiny and skill set around usage because we're bombarded by celebrity endorsement now.

1:10:29Lauren:Final question, Ian. Price.

1:10:32Ian Schatzberg:Yes.

1:10:33Lauren:Price has never been more discussed in the public of these brands, of anything, of the cost of anything. It's just all anyone wants to talk about is price and in fashion in particular. And there's been a lot of talk about it And this executive I was with the other day was saying, she feels like the prices have been recalibrated a bit and we just don't even realize. And I've experienced that at retail or like seeing line sheets, that sort of thing. But do you think there is opportunity in creating brands or positioning brands where they are a little more value driven than the like top, top, top tier luxury brands?

1:11:13Lauren:and is there a point in being obsessed with price from a marketing perspective at this point it's a great question i mean that's a great question i don't know if i have a huge

1:11:28Ian Schatzberg:insightful comment on it other than i was discussing the other day with someone like there was an element of fashion like what i was discussing about prada handbags back in the day And like, I think there was an element of fashion where the price point maybe was a little bit more accessible and allowed you to have fun. And I think people like to have fun with fashion. I mean, I think like we are in an irrational category where you buy things because you want to have fun with it. And I think that like, if anything, my only comment is like, I think that the prices have gotten, got so out of control that like, it took the fun out of, out of having these items that like, you wouldn't go and buy a sequenced, you know, nylon product bag because you just didn't think you were going to get the usage out of it.

1:12:20Ian Schatzberg:And at one point, maybe it was a little bit more accessible and you could just have fun getting it. And so I think like, I just think about it through that lens most recently, which is like, people want to have fun with these brands. Like it's a fun, people go into these businesses because they want to make people feel great and they want to have, they want to be around nice things that sort of enrich your life. And I think when price becomes such a barrier of entry, it's kind of just unfortunate. But I'm sure an economist would have something better to say than me, but I'm just looking at it through the lens of fun.

1:12:52Lauren:No, also, I mean, part of your job is marketing it to make something feel worth it. And so if it feels unfun, the price, it doesn't feel worth it. Yeah. Whereas like kind of expensive and you kind of feel like naughty is fun, but like too expensive, then you feel like bad. Correct.

1:13:11Ian Schatzberg:Even if you're really rich. And when it's fun and it's a little maybe more accessible, you could maybe be a different version of yourself, which I think is the purpose of fashion in a lot of ways, which is you reach for something that like makes you rethink who you are. You know, you're going to put that on and you're going to be a different version of yourself. And I think there's a lot of power in that. And that's, you know, ideally wouldn't get so much in the way of it.

1:13:36Lauren:Ian, this was such a pleasure. Thank you for taking so much time and teaching me so much. This was awesome. I think people are going to love it.

1:13:44Ian Schatzberg:Thank you. Good. Thanks so much.

1:13:47Lauren:Fashion People is a presentation of Odyssey in partnership with Puck. This show was produced and edited by Molly Nugent. Special thanks to our executive producers, Puck co-founder John Kelly, executive editor Ben Landy, and director of editorial operations, Gobby Grossman. An additional thanks to the team at Odyssey, J.D. Crowley, Jenna Weiss-Berman, and Bob Tabador.

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