The End of Leggings?

0:24Hello and welcome to Fashion People. I'm Lauren Sherman, writer of Puck's fashion and beauty memo line sheet. And today with me on the show is Puck's very own retail correspondent, Sarah Shapiro. We're here to discuss the wild world of activewear, who's in, who's out, and who is still wearing leggings.

0:45Happy Tuesday, everyone. I am officially back from my holiday. I had a great time in Montecito at the Rosewood Miramar, which is, lest you forget, a Rick Caruso property. So I have a lot of, as they call them learnings from what's happening in Montecito with both hospitality and retail. So check those out online sheet this week. Fascinating stuff. I had a great time. I really did relax, but I also, you know, we're always working on Monday. Terry Agins returned for a report on the state of menswear. I love this. And so will you. Thanks again to Terry for popping in while I popped out. I really appreciate it.

1:25I hope we have her back. She is amazing. In today's episode, it's a bit unique because I've been out. There's no news. If there was breaking news, I'm sorry. I'll talk about it in some issue or another this week and we can discuss it on Friday. But instead, Sarah and I got together to give you a sort of snapshot shot of what's happening in activewear right now from Biori to aloe to Lululemon to outdoor voices, all of it. I also wanted to mention that this was recorded hours before fitness instructor Kirstie Godso announced that she assigned with Biori to be a brand ambassador. So this is a big deal in a certain corner of my world.

2:12I guess the Sky Team world, BT Tub. Congrats to Chrissy. and also to Chloe for 10 years of Sky Ting. Big fan. But back to Kirstie Godso, who is used to do pyro tings at Sky Ting. If you used to go, it was like yoga and cardio together. And she's really amazing. I love her videos and have been following her for years. She is major. She's like the most important fitness instructor in some ways. She works with Kaya Gerber. She's a big deal. She was with Nike for years. And so just keep that in the back of your mind when you hear us talking about Jack Draper and his Nike to Viore transition. Let's get going.

2:59Sarah Shapiro, welcome back to Fashion People. Thank you. Hi. Hi. So we're recording this in the future or the past. I don't know what the right joke is, but I'm on vacation this week and I thought it would be a good, still timely. So if there was any breaking news, I'll say this at the top too, but if there was any breaking news between August 19th and August 25th, sorry guys, we'll talk about it. We'll talk about it on Friday. But I thought it was a good moment to do a sort of check-in on the activewear market because there's been a lot going on. You had a piece a couple of weeks ago that everyone should check out.

3:45I forget what the headline was, but do you remember? That one? Yes. It's part of our Friday This Week in Shopping, and it was Has Active Wear Peaked? Oh, yeah. So, yeah. And there were a lot of headlines around that time that were sort of flicking at that. My whole thing when you and I discussed the story was like, we've reached peak leggings or we're in a post-leggings, leggings era or what have you. But what did you, as someone who's been covering this industry for quite a while now and following it for even longer, what's going on in the activewear market? Give me a big picture snapshot. Sure.

4:33So a lot of this, look, there were a couple of different things going on. So one is Edited, which does a lot of retail and fashion research, did a look at the activewear industry. And for the first time, probably since leggings even came out, leggings were less than 50 % of activewear assortments. And it's interesting. And the more that I thought about it, it was interesting for a few reasons. Because I think one, it shows that there's more diversification in what's out there for activewear. So some of the activewear brands are adding in trousers and dresses into their assortment. We definitely know like the exercise dress and skirts are out.

5:22So they're in the assortment as well. So there's less than just leggings being like a singular skew that drives everybody. and I think the other thing that was interesting going on right now in the active wear is the return of outdoor voices which was the other main thing for this article yeah so really quickly I mean let's rewind a little bit because outdoor voices in phase one or or whatever had a lot to do with this sort of move away from just like plain black leggings they did color block leggings And then they also the exercise dress, which they introduced, I think, in 2018, which is a long time ago, has has become ubiquitous as as racket sports have become much more popular, like through the pandemic.

6:11I remember when they released the exercise dress, it was really popular, but it was one of those things like, OK, it's selling out. Of course, you didn't buy enough, you know, the typical thing. but then it really became a thing and now it's, it's people wear them, you know, on and off the court or, or what have you. But it's interesting when you mentioned, like, I noticed this when I went to Viori the other day that the trousers thing and, and sort of, okay. And the new, in the new launch of outdoor voices, which we've talked about a lot on this podcast already. So I don't want to harp on it, but there was like, button-down shirts or button-up shirts.

6:52Sorry. You need to have a button on the collar to be a button-down. But button-up shirts, there were little cashmere blend sweaters. And when I talked to Tyler, she really was like, people don't wear a full activewear look anymore. It's just not the way she dresses. It's not the way she sees people walking around dressing. I think she's she's correct in that observation. But I also remember like if you go reverse, you kind of reverse this and you look at something like theory, they started using tech fabrics. Like I remember having a meeting with Andrew Rosen this probably 10 years ago. He was obsessed with these tech pants that they were making.

7:37I mean, when I was at Bloomingdale, so this would have been pre 2011. I definitely purchased multiple pairs of like that scuba material. And I remember when it came out. And it's definitely, that also speaks to people needing to travel in a professional look. And, you know, that was starting to like come around then as well. So. Yeah. It's an interesting reverse. And it also, I think in the same way it's, it was, it's been challenging or not challenging, but for a lot of sort of mall brands, they will have an activewear line and Old Navy's for instance is huge, but not all of them, like a lot of the higher end brands have launched activewear and it isn't a lasting part of their assortment or it's a smaller part.

8:28When you look at the overall market for activewear, I want to kind of go through the big players. What do you think? I know you mentioned the bringing like regular clothes into the mix, what else are they doing to differentiate? Because the thing is like, I've heard a lot of people say to me, I already own 20 pairs of leggings. I don't need any more, but they also wear out and you have to, you have to cycle them out. Like there are very few people who could say I have leggings from 20 years ago. Like it's just gross. It's like a baby suit or something. What else do you think they're doing to sort of differentiate?

9:02Is it color-wise? Is it aesthetic? Is it fit? What are they all doing to sort of prove that they are different from everyone else? Yeah, I think Lululemon did this a lot with the different materials. Kind of, in a way, it's branding the material name. So, and I'm not even going to remember all of them, but I know Outdoor Voices came out with their bubble material. Lululemon has had like their align material dream knit is viore so these are all so very much like it's interesting how fleece and what is it like the polar fleece has like a specific name like that becomes a brand unto itself i think a lot of these materials did the same thing so you be you know which ones have better compression than others aloe yoga has like an airlift i think is their name.

9:58So they all get these specific names about their legging material. So for some time, that became the thing was what kind of compression did you like? What had the right hand feel? I mean, I feel like it's been, this is another name from the past. And I don't think about it so much in terms of performance wear, but definitely leggings, but LuLaRoe and their buttery soft leggings. That was this whole thing. So I think in some ways it became for a while the material. I don't know if that becomes, if that's still the driver, like if somebody launches a new material. Recently, Lululemon did away with the center seam on their Align leggings.

10:43And that was like a marketing push for like a day or two. It was like a week that they pushed it. Why did I didn't I mean, I don't have any. I'm sorry. I don't have any aligned leggings. I have two pairs of Lululemon leggings, but I think actually one pair is too big and they kept falling offside. Not because I'm skinny, but because they just I bought the wrong size and they I think they maybe they were really soft, but they I had to get rid of them because they just I kept having to pull them up when I would wear them. But I have a pair of more of their like running tights with a drawstring in it.

11:23So I don't think they're aligned. But so there was a seam down the back and they got rid of it. No, the seam down the front. And there was a seam down the front on the align. Like, yes, not the leggings. We're talking about like the gusset. So and if you think about, you know, maybe we'll get into like the camel toe territory, Maybe this would help with that, but it just made like a nice smooth front on the Align legging. Oh, okay. So the gusset, let's just, let's use the gusset. Let's explain what the gusset is the top of the, of the legging. So, oh, the, so the seamed on the front. Yeah. They got rid of, because they want to help people eliminate camel toe.

12:07Yes. Is this like a thing that like the, the cool leggings don't have a seam down the front? That's not I'm not a detail person. I would have never noticed that. So I would say without the seam down the front, you can get like a thinner material. And it's like you don't have that extra bunching with the seam. So that would be why it might be preferable. I'm trying to think in terms of sport, like potentially with like spinning, you know, something where you're really engaging. is this also is another reason for the like did the seam exist previously because then you can use different pieces of material which is cheaper to make than using one big piece and kind of having to shape it yeah I think there's definitely something with that and in terms of like pattern making I am sure there's various like improvements you can do there and the way that it lies and everything.

13:03I think of not having the seam at the gusset there, probably the biggest difference is like a thinner material. Cause I don't think you could do that with a lot of thicker materials and have it still lay flat. A line, no line. Yeah. They're literally calling it a line, no line. They trademarked it. Trending on little lemon. I honestly don't think it's as flattering as the ones. If you're, if you have a camel toe in your, your leggings, they're too smaller than you and you should buy bigger size. That's my advice.

13:40Okay, let's go through some of these brands and discuss their performance. And basically, let's start with Lululemon. And can you just talk about why a lot of Lululemon has been through so much. They've gone through the sheer pants controversy. They've gone through the founder making rude comments. They've gone through so much and have managed to like with, you know, push out that have so many different competitors. But now the business isn't as strong as it was or it's it's maybe I don't know. Can you can you talk a bit about like what's happening specifically at Lululemon and what it says about the bigger market?

14:24Yeah. So Lululemon is they surpassed 10 billion in 2024. So, and they've also, I was digging into some of the numbers today and 75 % of their business is still done in the Americas, but it was 79 % a year prior to that. So they've had some growth in China and overseas. And so that's like one way that they're still continuing to grow. Over 700 stores in the U.S., they have just under 400 stores. So it's still like a pretty, it's still a big business. I know we say that a lot with Nike, like it's downtrending, but at the same time, it's still a$50 billion business. Lululemon is right up, not right up there, but like they're a competitor because double digit billions.

15:15So the thing that I think, you know lululemon also really brought in this evolution of caring about what you wear to work out in whereas before you might have just thrown on some pieces and now there were all these pilates classes um bar classes like where this luck became a thing and where they stand now i think now they've just brought in there's so many other brands that have seen this do well and are coming to compete The other thing that I notice a lot because I have a tween, almost teenager in my house, is this is what that age group really wants to wear. I'm talking like junior high, middle school girls.

16:00Not only do they want to wear this, but at least in our community, they use those small reusable bags as their lunch bags and they hang off their backpacks. So I can't think of any better branding than something like that. But so their looks and they've also, you know, expanded in terms of like they now have golf, they have tennis, they've played with swimwear. The biggest controversy recently, which barely registered for me, but because I fall into these various TikTok holes and communications, is that they did away with the, so they have a discount for professional athletes or instructors. And they did away with ones in the dance category, which when people were thinking about it, like dancers are some of the ones who use Lululemon the most.

16:55um so why do you think they did was there an explanation for why or no i have not heard from lululemon a comment on that yet what their reasoning for it was but the community was very upset about it why do you think they did it i i think in some ways it could very much just be an oversight and not understanding what size of that business was because it's not like when you look on their site, that's not a category. Like their categories are tennis and golf, you know. So. And even like I'm not even seeing like running in here, but I'm sure I would if. Oh, activity here at the bottom. Running, workout, casual, yoga, golf, tennis.

17:44I'm making sure I'm not hiding anything. Yeah. I don't see any of that. Yeah. So they don't have. have, they're not separating it out, even though that's what people are wearing it for as an end use. That's really interesting. Bring back the discount. So when you look at Lululemon versus, let's look at it versus Nike, which is in the midst of its turnaround and identity crisis sort of and all that stuff. What do you think like its prospects are? I, I would say it has become the sort of go-to for people that if you need new leggings and you don't really know and you don't, there's not a brand that really speaks to you just buy Lululemon because it's easy.

18:38But that feels like that, that moment may have passed. yes and there's the other challenge i think with lululemon is there are tons of influencers pushing dupes or amazon the amazon brand of that people say this is just like the align leggings so whereas before i think you could have gone to lululemon if you just needed a pair of black leggings there's plenty of options on amazon now too yeah yeah i have a pair of amazon leggings that Hillary Kerr recommended a few years ago, and they are great and very soft. I do think, interesting thing on the material part, what do you think about the softness?

19:23It feels like very, what are those videos on YouTube where that people watch like ASMR where you're like, it feels very ASMR adjacent of the very soft. material and like, uh, I need a soft material with no, and, and Lululemon has that thing where when you get them, you rip out the Ted, the tag is already kind of perforated. So you can rip it out immediately. No tag, like very, um, and I like that material sometimes if I'm wearing leggings to go to a, or going to Pilates class or something like that, but I definitely don't like it when I'm in a hit class or running or whatever. And I feel like I, as you know, I bought my first Viori outfit.

20:13Yes, breaking news. And I really like it. The material's nice and it does have some compression. But like so much of the stuff in there was like so soft. It almost, I don't like that. Like, do you think, and one of the things I haven't, I haven't bought anything from Outdoor Voices yet, but I will. But the one thing that I noticed in the description for the bubble wrap was that it has a cotton-like feeling, which I thought was interesting. Do you think that we're going to move away from the like super, super soft fabrics into something a little drier? Or what do you think from the materials perspective?

20:52Like what's trending materials wise? I would say, well, trending material wise, and I don't see this so much in leggings because it doesn't performance wear, it wouldn't really work well, but cotton, people. And I think there's two parts of that. I think one is the thought that cotton is a really great material and just feels more quote unquote natural. And then along with that, the like anti-plastic discourse that's certainly going on in various conversations and with Maha. And even if it's not, it's just people wanting less plastic. So if you're already thinking of somebody who's maybe caring about their water bottle and making sure that's a certain thing, like somebody who cares about wellness fits right in with that workout gear.

21:43The other thing that I think of with the materials, and again, I am a, it's been a long time since I've done fabrication, like studies of stuff. But I think a lot of that also is like, what does it look like when you're sweating? Nobody wants a sweat stain back on their gusset or certain areas. And so that's where I think the material does come in. So I think these like buttery soft leggings, even though nobody's saying it, I think it does highlight, especially like the heathered material, you don't see sweat as much in there. So I think in terms of material, people still want materials that aren't going to sweat, don't smell, you know, when you're in a whatever people are taking these days, whether it's a Barry's bootcamp class or at a cross training gym, like you just don't want to smell still.

22:36Yeah, I go to this heated infrared hit class and it's that is the issue. I'm always like these people. Why? Why? I guess when you're doing a double, what can you do? There are people who do doubles of this class. I'm like, you're completely insane. Like, I don't know how they don't pass out.

23:01okay let's move on to aloe okay because i'm curious aloe was trying to raise a bunch of money i don't know if they ever actually did they definitely never was public if they did they were very good at someone was leaking i don't i never talked to anyone directly from aloe but i definitely talked to people around Aloe about it when they were trying to raise the money and the valuation was just like completely insane. It was so high. Um, I don't know if they were, they actually ever did it. If they did, they never announced and they never attempted to leak it. Maybe I can look into that, but, um, Aloe felt like sort of with the rise of Haley Bieber was the ride and the clean girl aesthetic, the rise of Aloe.

23:47And it's very big in Los Angeles and obviously it's an LA based company. So that's part of it too. But it really did feel like it was sort of the post outdoor voices. Outdoor voices was like a real fashion. It had a had a real like indie look to it in its first iteration. And it was like taking the ease of Lululemon, but adding a fashion lens to it that was much more basic and broader than what outdoor voices had been, but it just felt like it blew up at some point and was just everywhere. What do you see in the market now in terms of what's happening with them and, and how can they evolve? Because they started and like all these stores have this, but you mentioned the normal clothes thing.

24:42Like I've been to Biori in the winter and they have winter coats and things. Aloe really pushed that a couple of years ago where they were like selling jackets and blazers and things like that. Yes. The other thing, well, first, so Aloe, I also, when I was in Miami this summer, I realized it's also very big there. So it's a lot of these matching colored sets. Like I think people who want something maybe that feels a little more on trend and fashion forward will go to aloe versus a lululemon but it feels just as accessible and like easy to go in and grab some looks from there um they yes they have i think around 50 stores so they have enough stores that they're able to get these like key uh cities and demographics the other so they've they have blazers they have jackets um Um, they like skirts that you could probably even get away with in various looks.

25:47They've also dressed, um, please don't ask me to talk about NFL, but Joe Burrows. Oh, that's so funny. One players. So that, that's so funny. I, every time I go on the powers, the B Peter Hamby brings up Joe Burrows. If you listen to, I was on a, uh, about a week and a half ago and we discussed Joe Burrows. I only know about Joe Burrows pretty much because of Peter Hamby. Peter Hamby. Yes. So he, I believe he's their spokesperson. So, and has an arrangement with them. So he has worn aloe yoga. So I think that's, you know, when you think of the tunnel fits or a little bit more, that might be a brand that you would see popping up as a blazer.

26:34And I think they are. Oh, I remember this. Didn't you didn't we like use a photo of him in aloe as a lead image when you first started for some? Yes. And that I believe was from a sports award show. I mean, that sounds like the dumbest comment I've ever said. I don't know what that means. What are these like ESPN type award shows? Let's just tell everybody I'm wearing a shirt that says sports and it's from Sporty and Rich that I also bought. our colleague, John Oran, who writes our sports column that everybody should read. But I do read it because he mostly writes about sports media. That's interesting.

27:19I'm interested, just not in watching sports. Anyway, back to the point. Okay. But here's the thing I think about Aloe. And then I want to talk about Biore and their sort of entrance into sponsoring athletes too. But I think Aloe's challenge is a, that sort of aesthetic of minimalist and you're wearing your active wear as your outfit. I think that it will last a long time because active wear is comfortable, but it, and it's like very Kardashian coat. I just think that that whole, like, I think that that's on, I don't want to say on its way out in that it's going to go away, but it's not going to be the driver anymore.

28:07And I, and what, what Tyler Haney, Haney said about, um, like people don't just wear a set. I think that's true. Like when I go to work out in the Valley, it's not true. I mean, that's what people are doing, but I think generally, only, and it will take 10 years for that to happen, but I think they need to figure out sort of in the same way Lululemon has figured out, this is how we are. We're, this is, we're the go-to for this. They need to figure out what are they the go-to for? And that, that I think, you know, the guys who started Aloe have a blanks business that's very successful that honestly, the best t-shirts I've ever owned are from, it's called Bella, Bella canvas, Bella plus canvas or something like that.

28:57They're amazing. Like they're such great t-shirts. And so that's what fueled the allo business for, for a long time. And I, they need to use, I'm sure they use a lot with, of what they know from blanks to develop this active wear brand, but they need to figure out like, how can it how can they keep growing in a market where you know something like yori comes in and it's just so fascinating to me because it is not really aesthetically driven and is becoming more so but is very much about comfort and just like standardization and what do you think of we've written about Biori, you've written about Biori a lot.

29:48I've done it a couple of times and also did just buy a set from there because I, as I've spoken about many times on this podcast, I don't want to tell the story again, but like I saw a bunch of people in these piped shorts and leggings and they were really cute. And I was like, you know what? I might as well try it. I'm not going to be embarrassed to wear this and try it and see how it feels and have been wearing it wearing this and the stuff is really nice honestly when I look at all the different leggings I've tried and things in the last year or so it's probably the best stuff that I've bought in terms of performance and also like it making me look good like which I don't think about too much but but in this case I was like oh these are cute they made me look cute so um I'm curious what you think about how that brand is developing?

30:45Yeah. One of the things that I think helps set Viori apart is they started with men's. And I think that if you think of like whether fashion's being first or utility and the feel, I think that when it boils down to it, I think that's like an interesting characteristic of the brand. They also have really, I mean, every, I spend most of my weekends on some sports field for my kids and all the parents, I would say at least 50 % of the parents are wearing at least one item for Viore, if not a whole look. And it's just easy and comfortable. And I think that's a big reason why they're wearing it. Yeah.