The Everlane Blowback

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1:53Hello and welcome to Fashion People. I'm Lauren Sherman, writer of Pucks Fashion and Beauty Memo Line Sheet. And today with me on the show is Retro Amandi, host of The Cutting Room Floor. We're talking about the mango murder, the business of the red carpet, Everlane and Sheehan, and so much more. Happy Tuesday, everyone. I hope you had a great week. I am back in Paris. I I had a very nice time in Bath at the fashion PR wedding. Congrats again to Gabrielle and Owen and to everyone who looked so good at the wedding, including Gabrielle's mother, who was just truly gorgeous. Anyway, I went to London.

2:32I ran into some friends, which was really nice. And even a fashion people listener. Sorry, I was on the phone. If I had not been interviewing someone, I would have gotten off to speak to you. But I was in the middle of an important interview. and then on this Thursday I'm headed back to the UK to Bister Village to interview Alex Eagle for a future episode if you would like to attend that recording you can email eric at puck.news and he will help you out you have to go to Bister Village for it but I would love to see you I know some of you are coming out it would be really fun and obviously Alex Eagle has lots of fans otherwise I will catch you on Friday and be sure to re-like you

3:15Retro Omandi, welcome to Fashion People. Hi, Lauren. I'm excited to be here. Thank you for having me. I'm so happy to have you. It's far overdue. The last time I saw you, I was on your podcast, which is way more professional. No, it was great, though. I think people were excited to hear from you in that format. It was really fun. Also, my boss was like, did you get Botox right before you looked like you were 12? It looked amazing. I know the lights do pretty good in there, I would say. They're incredible. Um, anyway, how was your weekend? Weekend was good. I mean, it was Memorial Day weekend and I feel like everybody had fun plans, but not I.

3:51I was inside working. So, I mean, I feel like it was good in the sense that it was productive, but I didn't get that much sunlight. But it also rained quite a bit here in New York, so I don't think I missed that much. Yeah. Yeah. It's always fine to work on the weekends when you, when there is not, um, when the weather is not good. I know. That's the issue with Los Angeles. The weather is always good. Yeah, I love a long weekend because I feel like I can catch up because I feel like I'm in a constant state of catch up. What are you working? I mean, obviously, you have the podcast and I know you do that.

4:26You do series for that, like you take little breaks or do you just keep going every week? We're taking a break right now. We're on a hiatus. The show returns June 3rd. But do you mean like, what am I doing for that? what what are you working on are you working on the show prepping the next season are you working on some stories or mix of all of it yeah we're prepping the show for next season which will be season seven um and hiring we're doing a lot of hiring right now um so it's like exciting yeah it's exciting it's uh you know interesting I would say um but yeah what's interesting about it just like this generation this generation well I don't know I think I think before it was about hiring who we could and now we get to now we get to actually pursue people who are like super professional and experienced and just kind of like level up a little bit in that way So I think we're just entering the market in a different way.

5:31Whereas when you're doing something new, you're kind of hiring fans. You know what I'm saying? Yes. And now we get to hire like professionals. So that's good. Yeah. And the ideal is when they're professionals and a fan. Yeah. That is what I have found. Yeah. Then that's perfect. So, yeah, it's all of that. And I mean, I mean, I wish I could share more. But yeah, we're just working behind the scenes, booking people and talking to their teams and getting the schedule ready and all that. It's exciting. So how were the resort shows for you? You went, did you go to Dior too in L.A.? I went to Dior in L.A.

6:07and I went to Louis here in the city. How were they? Did you have a good time? Had you been to resort shows before like that? No, it's funny because I only really just started recently doing like the fashion show circuit and I actually have mixed feelings about it. but um while it's a huge honor to be invited and some parts of it just I don't see how they can ever get old because they're just such exceptional experiences Dior I thought was fantastic Louis I was a bit more confused but um yeah I went to both yeah it's interesting I'm curious when you say you have mixed feelings because I do as well what do you about about attending what what do you mean?

6:48Well, I think I just spent so much of the early part of what I was doing just not going to shows. And we never really had, it's not that I didn't want to, it just wasn't a focus, I should say. It wasn't a priority and it wasn't a focus. And I found that it didn't really stop me from doing what I wanted to do, which was just the show, my podcast, and interviewing people. And we still got a lot of inquiries and a lot of pitches. So I was like, do I need to be there? Well, one season, we decided to just kind of take a stab at it. And we went to Paris and did the whole thing and, you know, went to a lot of great shows.

7:23And it was amazing. But I guess I walked out of it wondering if it made a qualitative or even quantitative difference in like what I do. So and then there's just like an, I think, an ever present, somewhat awkward social dynamic. I guess what I'm saying is this. It is very odd to me, the idea of an entire industry moving around almost like a school of fish, right? Like in a group, in a herd, across different cities, across around the world. So you do see the same faces every day. And yet I still don't know any of these people. It's kind of my thing. You know people on a very kind of surface level.

8:00And so I think that part is interesting because as you know from my show, I have a tendency to kind of be like, I want to go all in if I know who you are and find out everything or like not. Yeah, it's you say School of Fish, but it is just very much like a school. Yeah. Like it's like going to different classes and you sit there and you might make a couple of connections because you're seated near a certain person. But it takes a long time. And it also has changed so much because so many more editors used to go. So the the pool of editors has has changed. The makeup of the kinds of people invited has changed.

8:38And, you know, I struggle with it, too, because because of the way I write things and it's not always what a brand wants, like sometimes I get invited, sometimes I don't. And I don't want to let whether I get invited or don't get invited color my feelings about a show. And I will say that, like, I tend to get invited to the brands that even if I don't always write like perfectly about them, they can tell I like the designer. um and so that's a tricky thing and then the other part of it is like from a coverage perspective writing about the shows like not that many people read that stuff and that's everywhere that's not just like with me that I've been doing this for 15 years on the internet everywhere I've ever worked show coverage has been the the like lowest thing so it's about like how do you write about it in a way that gets people interested.

9:35And that also there is a core readership that wants to know what I thought. Like I didn't go to Louis Vuitton or Dior actually, but like I wrote about them in the context of how I would like, why, what my reader would be interested in. So, yeah, it's fascinating, but I do think there's a big value for me as a reporter, and I'm sure as you as a reporter and a sort of cultural observer, there's a real value in seeing the clothes in person and also seeing the dynamics of the front row and even the way that the shows are staged and things. Like the first, I went to see the Dior women's show. Yeah, I went to the Dior couture and then I went to the women's ready to wear in February, March.

10:30And honestly, seeing those clothes in person and getting to like go to a preview and hear Jonathan talk about it, it did make a difference. And if I had just seen them on a photo of what I would have thought about them. So it's it's a fascinating thing. I think it's good to go sometimes. You don't have to always go, but it's good sometimes. Yeah, that makes sense. Do you does it bother you when you don't get invited does that like is it important to you to go to all things or are you selective to honestly it doesn't bother me enough to stop being the way i am if that makes sense like sometimes it does because i want to go but like and i also i think there have been shows that i haven't been invited to that i really liked and i was like i really liked the show i thought it was great like you have to be you have to I have to be really really truthful with myself do am I upset I didn't get invited and um I think nine times out of ten I'm able or nine and a half times out of ten I'm able to manage it and also like there were show I was invited to Dior and Gucci the resort shows I wasn't invited to Louis Vuitton but I also didn't you know it's fine but I didn't go to them because I just was like I can't I'm gonna go to Hermes in um in June but like we don't take press trips I can't I don't I wasn't in LA I I don't live in New York and I was just like you know what I this time it doesn't make sense LA made more sense for Hermes because there's a Xenia show also and the sort of meetings I'll be able to do when I'm there and also I've been away from LA for six months.

12:14Like it felt worth putting the investment into Hermes, but like Dior and Gucci, as much as I kind of felt bad, I wasn't there. I also was like, you know what? It wasn't, it didn't make sense. And I'll be in Paris in June for Men's and Couture. So, and in Milan for men. So like, yeah, it's, I don't think I need to be there all the time, but I need to be there sometimes is the is my takeaway and I feel that that is the case for every single person unless they're an editor-in-chief of a magazine and then they have to be there most of the time because it's just too complicated not to me that's crazy but yeah that's a lot but yeah that makes sense well and that that's the other thing like it's just so much travel if I had gone because I went to New York around the Met if I had stayed for Gucci and then gone to Dior or gone to New York and stayed for Gucci and then come back for Gucci.

13:11I wouldn't have been in Paris for all of May. I'd be away from my family. It's hard. It's a tricky thing. But I think it's great that you're going and dabbling. Yeah, we'll see for how long. But yeah. So one show I feel like I saw you at last season was Marc Jacobs. And last week, there was some big news that Mark Jacobs was sold to WHP, this big licensing firm. I remember that Mark was one of your first guests or a very early guest. No, are you kidding? Like one of your first... No, I've never had Mark on. I feel like you... Are you kidding me? Mark has never been on your podcast? Are you kidding?

13:52This is a PSA to Michael Arianon. Listen, Michael knows I've been stalking him trying to get Mark on the show. Mark's never... Wait, Mark has never been on... I swear to God he was on your podcast. It blows my mind, by the way, that I'm trying to decide that this should be an off an off camera conversation. But no, Mark's never been on yet. Michael, if you're listening, it's time. It's totally time. It's beyond time. Mark, you're also welcome on Fashion People. But let's give this one to Retro because I really I don't. How could I have imagined that? Yeah. Does he engage with you on social media?

14:29No, not really. I mean, his publicist does. I think we love Michael Arianon. He is also welcome on Fashion People. Yeah, he's... I don't know if it makes sense for you. I think some of these bigger gets are really interesting to me because while I understand why they want to do the run-of-the-mill media that they've been doing for a thousand years, there's something about tapping into people and the pedestrian of the industry that they're just not accessing. So I think what I notice is like there's a certain type of person who still believes in like the insular ecosystem, the island that the whole business lives on.

15:10And I just don't think that world exists anymore. So when they don't kind of leave the island and they wanted to go to the same kind of three pit stops, I'm like, I always feel I can do so much more for them. if they would come sit down and for the brand and for their profile, then say the the run of the mill, like pit stops, like I said, but it takes they just kind of go in this kind of wash, rinse, repeat media strategy. And I just feel like for so many of them, it's time to switch it up. Well, also, I think with podcasts, I've heard like there was a designer who was pitched to me and I was like, sure, I don't I think we've talked about this when I was on your podcast.

15:48I don't really pitch a lot of people I don't try to get bigger names it sometimes I will but it's more um it just hasn't been the strategy what when from when I first started it was more about like let's try to get it behind the scenes people who will have an honest conversation because it's so as you know it's so much work to book people and but this designer they reached out and they were like, would you want her to do it? And I said, Yeah, I'm down. And then they were like, we're not doing any podcasts. So I think the interesting thing also is they're nervous about podcasts, even though it's such a it's in some ways so much more exposing and in some ways less exposing.

16:34But I agree that if sometimes I see that they've done a certain podcast, and I'm like, but no one listens, no one listens to that. And or no one cares. And maybe that's why they do it. Well, that is maybe that's probably or it doesn't it doesn't move the needle. It doesn't it doesn't penetrate culture. It doesn't start a new conversation. It's just kind of like you came, you saw, you sat down and it just, you know, it's forgotten. Yeah. Well, anyway, not to not to totally dump on Michael because he really is one of the best in the business and I love him. But he you Mark should do your podcast.

17:09I also want to do fashion people at some point. But like, let's prioritize retro in this case. Thank you, Michael. I'll be emailing you again probably after this. Anyway. Anyway, so how do you feel about this sale to WHP? What do you think about it? Because you used to be a designer. You've been on like all different sides of the industry. What do you think about the fact that he is now going to be owned by one of these big licensing firms? I mean, I don't know. I feel like Mark's had so many different iterations of his brand, right? And there's been so many different, you know, chapters and I feel like there's been a long conversation no about him being acquired or for like the last several months if not years is that am I making that up yeah no it's been over a year the company was almost acquired by another one of these big with authentic brands authentic brands was gonna buy it right exactly yeah yes um so I don't know I guess I have more questions for mark you know from a business perspective and this is one of those things that like I feel like people don't while when it comes to like my interviews and things like that yes I love to talk to the creative about their vision, but like, I want to talk to them about their business.

18:15So I guess my question for it would be for Mark is maybe like what the upside is for him to do this. Is he tired of designing? Does he does he it's a licensing deal? Is that correct? So it's it is but I what I have written a bit about is I do think this could be like a new model for licensing. And if you look at off white, which I'm that's a complicated situation because of how it left LVMH. but if you look at how they've managed it, Ib, the creative director, stayed. He still does fashion shows. They still sell Off-White, but then the reporting I've done, the retail revenue for Off-White now is$700 million.

18:56So they're licensing that thing up the wazoo and we just don't see any of that product. And that's owned by Blue Star Alliance. So it's a smaller firm than WHP, but I would say like WHP also recently bought Rag & Bone and that's a joint venture with guests. So Rag & Bone sort of operates the way it did. It's just that it's now owned by this licensing firm and they're probably licensing it in ways that we don't even see. And with Mark Jacobs, they went in on it with G3, which had bought Donna Karan fully from LVMH. And what I would say, what will change, I bet they'll still let them do the fashion show.

19:37The beauty just relaunched. That deal is still on. what I think will change is there will be a lot more Mark Jacobs product in a lot of different places, but probably places that we won't see. So what do you mean by that? Like, why do you think we don't see the off-white product? Because it's in malls and like random malls in Thailand that we would never go to. It's like hidden. So then that begs the question though, are these deals where these brands go to die? Well, it depends. Like there isn't anywhere else for them to go at this point. So what these new fangled licensing firms are purporting is that they are not the licensing firm of yore where it's just like Betsy Johnson tights everywhere in the world.

20:25These are brand management firms where they are going to take care of the brand and make sure in the brands sort of like regions where they came up like in for Marc Jacobs or most of these brands, the Western world, that the brand will remain intact. And yes, it will be one, a reader messaged me and said, is this going to mean that it's going to be way more off price? Mark James is already an off price. So you're just not going to off price if you don't see it there. So I think the reality is there are just too many brands and there are fewer acquirers. There aren't that many strategic groups and there aren't private equity firms when a brand gets too big they don't want it or if it's on the decline private equity firms want brands that are sort of either totally wiped out and can be they want brands that can be built up so if you're like a Marc Jacobs which is a you know even right now still like a pretty good business but but declining for one because they weren't investing in it because they were trying to sell it but two because it's been around for a long time.

21:32It doesn't really make sense for a private equity firm to buy it because it already makes like$600,$700,$800 million a year. To get it up to like$1.5 billion, a private equity firm wouldn't know how to do that at this point. If it was like$100 million, then maybe it would be worth it because it would be cheap. But yeah, so I think it depends. The next 10 years, we're really going to see what happens. Like either these brands are going to just start to fall on their faces or this is the future of how stuff gets acquired. And Marc Jacobs is a good first experiment because I want to see Marc Jacobs socks and cheapo bags and stuff.

22:16Like it reminds me of that store that he had in the West Village 15 years ago where it was just like mark by mark by mark by mark by mark. I think it could be really fun. And I think he has a good attitude about it. he from what i know owned 20 of the business still so he made a shit ton of money because they sold it for from the people that i talked to probably north of 800 million so he made a lot of money on it and lvmh made money it was closed they wanted a billion for it they got around that um and you know this is probably the evolution of it where it should go and someone else said like Look at Isaac Mizrahi.

22:56That man is making tons of money. He hasn't run a ready-to-wear business in, I don't know, 15, 20 years. He's living his best life. And maybe that's okay. You have to decide what you want. But again, I think the Mark shows are still going to be the Mark shows for as long as he wants to do them. And if that's not the case, that's too bad because it's an easy... It's not like his shows are that expensive to put on. It's an easy marketing thing. and everybody loves them. They love going to them. He's someone that people still really value his work within the industry. And so to me, like spending, they probably don't even spend a million bucks on those shows, maybe.

23:38So... Yeah, the last show that I went to, the most recent one, I thought it was very minimal. And I didn't know if that was typical, if that was typical or if that was, you know, seasonal. It used to not be typical, but when the brand in the around 2015, 2016, 27 started to have some issues because of, they did a restructuring that didn't work. They started doing these really bare minimum folding chair shows at the armory. And he sometimes has done like this one, they had an Anna way and painting. The paint was still wet that she did for the show. Maybe she gave it to him as a gift because they're friends and they have a creative dialogue.

24:19I don't know, but like that, If they paid for it, that was probably the most expensive thing about. And also obviously the samples, because that is not cheap. But yeah, he does it bare bones and it's about the clothes. And he always has something to say. And that is that's so rare today that I think like if WHP is smart, they will engage him a ton because he's still like very relevant and in it. Yeah. Yeah, he's an important asset for them.

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25:43another thing in the news last week was this this sort of culmination of this mango murder story do you know about this mango murder story yes so the one of the heirs to the mango empire let me pull up pull it up we're talking about the clothing store right yep yeah mango's founder's son steps down as vice president amid murder investigation. The son of the founder of the Catalan fashion company Mango has issued an open letter to employees after being released on bail in connection with the alleged murder of his father, Isaac Ondick. So this is from Caliber.az. I don't know what that is. I'm in Europe.

26:35We don't have to talk about this for very long, but isn't this a crazy story about this? It's like this guy is being accused of murdering his father and he's the heir to the mango fortune. He also works at mango still. Yeah, I don't know. I'm catching up on this and I'm inclined to believe that he may have had something to do with it. It's wild. It's just be just because what? Okay, to be fair for all the listeners out there, I'm only reading one article on BBC and I hadn't heard about this before 10 seconds ago. So take my whatever I'm about to say with a grain of salt. But I mean, the story is such, right?

27:12The founder of Mango died in December of 24. So right, I would say like right at the top of 25. And they only arrested this gentleman, his son, who's 45, the founder was in his 70s, I think, just in October. So 10 months later, right? And essentially, these two went hiking, they were alone on the mountains of Spain. The dad falls off a cliff and they all thought it was a tragic incident until they go back and do more investigating. And now they've arrested the son who they believe was involved. And one thing I think is tricky is the fact that it was just the two of them. So no witnesses, no nothing.

27:51It's kind of like a tree falling in the forest kind of argument now. And then two, they're saying that the way that he fell doesn't line up with where they claim the son was. The son claims that his dad was behind him and fell, so that he heard screaming and went back and he fell. And I'm like, I don't know, that seems suspicious because, not suspicious, but like super convenient. yeah because then you can't say oh i saw him fall and then you have more data points and this is how it happened you just go i don't know i was just walking and i turned behind me and he was gone i don't know bro you know the amount of requests i've gotten to cover this which i'm i don't i yeah it's like this is maybe i could move to barcelona for like 15 years or i mean for like the next year to figure this out i don't i don't think like all I will say is that this stuff usually you just follow the money and and we'll find out why this this has happened I don't I don't know like maybe it was maybe we'll we'll discover but I don't if you all have ideas of how you want me to cover this story I am open to them other than obviously when there's a development I link but this is also not a business that um I cover very closely for no reason other than the fact that like I don't cover a lot of fast fashion or or high street brands um but in the BBC story it says that there is a motive in the nature of the relationship with Jonathan particularly in the context of the mango business so maybe there is you know a a big business story here like the gucci murders ended up being a big business story we'll see hopefully they figure out what happened with this guy and i will keep updating you all in incremental ways but um yeah it's it's interesting the the the son and the two sisters shareholders share control of a holding company that has a 95 % stake in Mango.

30:10Yep. That's what I'm reading right now. Yeah. So, I mean, and it says here that, um, according to the investigation, Jonathan, the son exercised emotional manipulation over his father in order to achieve his economic objectives and that he had in quotes, verbalized feelings of hatred, resentment, and ideas related to death and blame aimed at Isaac, his father. he is also married to an influencer named paula nata who has 121 000 followers but is now private for obvious reasons and they just had a kid in september which is unfortunate um but yeah it's very dramatic this is definitely going to be a movie someday yep yep i mean if it is a truly genuine accident and that's horrifying and so sad and then imagine imagine if there is an accident this traumatizing and it does look bad on you like imagine you're innocent and all things point against you like that also is a huge pickle to be in as well we're like i know how this looks but it really had nothing to do with me or you are knowing more than you're saying so i don't know i mean obviously it's more salacious and exciting to say that there's a murder mystery but like this poor guy if you really didn't do anything wrong and he just happened to be there with his dad and that's terrible so i don't know it is really um a disturbing story that all the american publications need to get on this immediately you think so yeah i mean it's well it's interesting because i think it hasn't it has not gotten that big because people in the U.S.

31:50don't really care that much about Mango. It obviously exists, but it's not like, also it's not a, it never was like a huge part of the culture. They used to make really great pants. I don't know if that's still the case, but yeah, I feel like we're going to see a couple. To me, it feels like a big New York magazine spread. Maybe they already did one, actually someone someone did do it anyway it's an interesting little corner of the fashion world and again if you all want me to write about it more you need to send me information because I'm not I'm not sourced up at Mango so if you want me to do that I need some I need I need some motivation some support got it um moving on to something a little less heady were you following the can red carpet this year no i actually don't follow red carpet that much are you just not interested which is understandable um you know it's so funny i remember listening to an episode of fashion people and i cannot remember their life of me remember who you were talking to but the two what was it catherine have you read catherine power on your show uh hillary kirk hillary kirk okay so maybe it was you and hillary you and hillary and you guys were talking about red carpet and you guys were so well versed and who was it wearing what and what brands they came with and who was their stylist and did it and I was like wow this is fascinating because like I feel like I know but these women like know what's going on why I don't pay attention to red carpet that much I mean if a picture shows up on my timeline I'm like oh they look pretty and like I might look at check the tag and see who they wore but can no why did something interesting happened that I should know about?