The Girlboss Discourse

0:04Hello and welcome to Fashion People. I'm Lauren Sherman, writer of Cux Fashion and Beauty Memo Line Cheat. And today with me on the show is Marisa Meltzer, author of It Girl, The Life and Legacy of Jane Birkin. We're talking outdoor voices, Gwyneth Paltrow, Copenhagen Fashion Week, the Girl Boss Discourse, and so much more. happy tuesday everyone hope you're enjoying tomato season which is obviously not a thing on the west coast but definitely is a thing on the east coast we always have nice tomatoes here so if you're acting like it's tomato season on the west coast it's really not but i do love tomatoes anyway lots of goodies for you this week online cheat on monday a triumvirate of Condé Nast related news.

0:52First up, Vogue head of US content speculation. And we do a one month check in on Mark Guaducci at Vanity Fair, where he is making some interesting changes. Actually, I think you should, you should check it out and learn more. And I've also got some color on an old Condé Nast executive who left a while back, but Susan Plageman, who was at WME Fashion, left at the end of last week. It was sort of expected. I've been writing a lot about her tenure there since I've been at Puck, which was a little bit, a little shorter of an amount of time, but it's been interesting. It says a lot about state of fashion industry, about the state of the representation industry, et cetera, et cetera.

1:40So I have some color on why she's leaving. Plus The stylist, Laura Roach, is looking to buy a famous fashion house, which is very fascinating. I hope he pulls it off because I can't wait to see how it all unfolds. More on that in line sheet. Also, make sure to check out today's because Sarah Shapiro is getting into the business of Kate. You'll recall that the VCPE firm Stripes invested in Kate a few years back. and I had a big story on it right after the deal went through and we're doing a check-in and Sarah's kind of looking at how the brand is merchandised at this point, what sells, what doesn't and it's fascinating.

2:27I mean if you go to any wealthy neighborhood and everyone's wearing Kate shoes, Kate jeans, Kate knits, Kate dresses, maybe carrying a Kate bag but it's a really important brand in the U.S. market in particular. And Sarah puts her buyer's eye on the whole thing and explains why it's working. So I hope you enjoy it. And I hope you enjoyed this interview with Marissa.

2:51Marissa Meltzer, welcome back to Fashion People. I'm so happy to be here. I've been just in New York having spicy takes alone all summer long. So I'm ready. If only the first five minutes of this podcast that we just spoke off the record. was publishable, but it's not Molly. Please do not ruin our lives by publishing. We could say, okay, one takeaway is I would, I would take a job somewhere and, um, you'd like to manifest that for me. So I am available if anyone wants to offer me something attractive. Marissa is available for the Vogue editorial head of content job. Oh yeah. I did say I would, I'm happy to go on the record that no one has approached me about it.

3:35And that's their loss because, you know, every month's cover would just be like a woman in a clown blouse. It would be it would just be like Chanel couture. And then it would be like a really complicated Alaya. And yeah, maybe a woman with a snake. It would be a real return to Dion of Reland. Here's an issue to me. Who looks at covers? Well, you know what? the covers I did would be so stunning that there would be a return covers would be so back. You know, the cover that has made the most inroads in my group chats lately is that New York Post cover with sex in the city that was like they ruin sex or whatever.

4:22That is an iconic cover. I know more than one person who bought it to frame it. It's, you know, like I, you know, those are the kind of tabloid covers that we need more of. How excited are you about the California post? The New York post is, is coming to California. They're going to have a California. I'm, I'm excited. I might get, I might subscribe. Oh, I absolutely would. I'm going to buy gift subscriptions for my parents for sure. Oh, great idea. Native Californians. I'm very interested in their coverage of California and their takes. I mean, yeah, I hope they have a Montecito, you know, dedicated Montecito reporter.

5:06Beat reporter. You know, Montecito is one of those towns that has a newspaper there also. I know, but I need the - And some, like, person runs it. It's the way that if I were given this Vogue job and blowing through money, I would have a dedicated Big Sur bureau. Yes. Who just hangs out at what's that restaurant that everyone goes to? Big Sur Bakery? Nepenthe. Yeah. Nepenthe. I'm not a Nepenthe person, obviously. Well, I obviously am. Yes. I like this place called Coast where the guy used to work at like Tartine or something. Yeah. I mean, I love Big Sur Bakery. I love like a sunset drinks at Post Ranch.

5:50My father has gone on at least two honeymoons in Big Sur. So, you know, it's our family. I'm a big, the first time you know that I've been to Esalen. I love that for you. I did a week long. I am, I am, this, this like reduces to how dumb I actually am. I watched the finale of Mad Men. No, you went to Esalen from Mad Men? And I was like, I have to go to this place. I was like, what is this place? And I looked, I didn't know about Esalen. Well, yeah, it's true. You're not a Californian. And then I found out like a lot of fashion industry people go and had been, I was feeling very on edge. This is what 2017 and stressed high, highest stress I've ever felt probably.

6:42And I booked myself a single room, which is the very luxurious for seven days. And I learned about meditation through looking at art. Was it the longest seven days of your life? You know, honestly, the thing that was the hardest about it, I kind of think I should have done a silent retreat. Oh, I love a silent retreat. I think that's what I really needed because the issue for me was that everyone on the retreat wanted to talk a lot and share their feelings. There were people who had their one girl, her like boyfriend had just died. One person was over just getting over cancer. Another person was getting divorced.

7:32And then that guy, Jordan first, is it? Oh yeah. He was in it. And he's like, this was before he was famous. And so was he taking up a lot of space or was he intriguing? he was I the first day first of all he's like 10 years younger than me like he's quite young okay and I was like but the first day I'm like oh I'll be friends with this guy right like he was the only person in the group here who I can be friends with yes I was like this is the only person in the group that I see socializing with outside of this situation and then he became the center of the group and he was writing on search party that shows search party at the time.

8:18This was before he was famous. This is pre pandemic. And I was like, oh, my God, this because I had watched the show. I didn't have a whole plot line afterwards afterwards. So it was like, oh, my God, wasn't it? Yeah, maybe I didn't watch it after because I was like, this guy is using this experience for material. Wow. And essentially I didn't speak the entire time and everyone else. And it really, that was the heart. It was amazing. And I'm, I, I enjoyed it and I, it made me fall in love with Big Sur and we've gone back. We have not stayed at Post Ranch, but we've stayed at Ventana. Love. That's where my dad honeymoons.

8:57He's a Ventana guy. Yeah, it's lovely. A deeper cut is Tassajara. That's the, that is the Buddhist retreat where you're, where like the meditation and therapy all involves kneading dough and baking bread. And yeah, before we move on, while we're manifesting, what fancy spa would you like to go to in our, like for us, maybe Becky Malinsky will come, maybe Amanda, you know, like where are we, where are we going? Well, in California, it doesn't have to be California. Think big. No, I want to go to that place in Switzerland. Lawns are off. Yeah. Me too. We got to go. There's also Meyer clinic, which I think is similar.

9:45I would like something that's somewhere sort of middle European, like Germany, Austria, Switzerland only. A hundred percent. These are in the summer, especially. I want to eat brown bread. Yes. And just look at green. Just look at green. I want it to be something where we're not encouraged to talk to each other. And maybe they make me detox from caffeine. Yes. I and where people are kind of mean to you. Oh, I want them to be a little. I actually. Yeah, this is a whole thing. But I kind of only respond to people that are strict and mean to me to me. Do you think we should be in therapy more or less?

10:25I am in therapy, Marissa. I've been in therapy my entire life, like literally for 40 years. Yeah. Agreed. Since six years old. Since I was, I think, seven. Yeah. The minute my parents divorced, my mom was like, here's a therapist. Me too. Instead of my own parents, say, pursuing their own therapy or anything. It was like, let's, we'll put our daughter in therapy to deal with this change. Yeah. Okay. So we can talk offline about our various therapy experiences. Let's go through, we have a lot to cover this week. There's been a lot of Marissa Meltzer coded fashion news this week that I wanted to chat with you about.

11:07Okay. Let's start with outdoor voices relaunch feedback more recent I I think I am gonna have Tyler on the podcast so um props to her and for for wanting to come on the podcast absolutely it will be great um but so I'm curious to know I wrote a bit in last week's line sheet about my my personal reaction to it. What did you think of it? I don't want to be the person that speaks in aphorisms, but it is kind of you can never go home again. There was something magical about that 2015, 2016 era. I think of it along the same time when Sky Ting was opening. I was doing a ton of reporting on beauty and wellness for Vogue.

12:05And, you know, I absolutely wore those leggings, although my favorites were some of the tanks and the like, I still have me too. Um, and have still tried to buy some off of eBay. Um, the leggings were fine. They were a little compressive for, for me, for yoga, maybe if I had been a runner, but tragically, no. Um, and this, you know, I, I know there's still a lot of need for workout clothes, but I personally have gravitated to cotton workout clothes. I just, because I, you know, I'm not like you, I don't do like mega reformer or run I'm doing yoga. And so I love like a sweat pant or a cotton short.

12:52Um, and I definitely wear sports bras and stuff like that, but, um, I just want like ease of movement. And yeah, I don't know. I also, I'm so over people wearing, um, like active wear, things like that as, you know, outdoor clothes. Like it's one thing to be on your way to work out and back, but like, I don't want to see it all day. I don't want to see you in your workout dress. I just I just want us all to to be better. Yes. And Sarah Shapiro is going to come on the podcast when I'm on vacation and we're going to do a deep dive on like the state of active wear. And I thought Vanessa Friedman had a great headline in The Times that was like.

13:45I don't remember it now, but it was basically like. this we're in the post-athleisure. What is athleisure? It feels a little like vintage retro, even though we're only talking about a decade ago, but also looking at the new, um, outdoor voices stuff like the, um, you know, the cropped hoodie and pants set that has the sort of like Diamante logo. It's, you know, it's not for me, but also I am a cranky 48 year old woman that likes yoga and, you know, like it's for, it's definitely for a younger, maybe even younger demographic than the initial outdoor voices drop. Cause that was way more sort of age and color neutral.

14:33and this feels a little more like Gen Z nostalgia coded and you know I wish them I'm despite everything I you know I hope I want like small brands like that to succeed and there's plenty of room for good active wear but I'm not going to be buying it but I'm also not buying literary sport because it's too expensive it's too expensive um here's what i think i agree with all of that i would say it's interesting to watch the way tyler haney's mind works like she sees that exactly what you're saying that people shouldn't really be wearing these sets as like an outfit that they wear during the day type vibe.

15:27And so I think and she sees people on the street and she clearly has positioned this, I think, not only for younger people, but also people who don't live in New York and L.A. Yeah, it looks suburban to me. It's very like coolest girl in Cincinnati. Exactly. And there's a big market for that. Like I always you know, I want people like that to read my articles and buy my books because it's outside of my bubble of elitism if I'm being, you know, frank. Yeah. And when you look at the Shop My Top 10, we started doing this monthly, Sarah started doing this monthly column with Shop My. I'm so interested in it.

16:09It's fascinating. It's crazy. It was like basically the most click through items that have Shop My links. And so it's like a Veronica Beard hoodie, zip up hoodie thing that you think they have so many. They introduced those 15 years ago. That's still one of the most popular products. A lot of it was driven by the Nordstrom anniversary sale this month, which is interesting. So so I think the the challenge with that is I think you're exactly right. I think the other things that people aren't sort of getting with this. This OV thing is it's a very small group of product. It's not, they didn't introduce a ton of new things and they paired back the styles that they already had.

16:54And so I think the thing I would say is I'm very interested in trying the new material because it says it has a cotton-like feeling. And also I think the colors are great. Like I would be interested in a pair of shorts and a bra, a sports bra from there. The problem for me is like, I'm not going to wear the embroidered Outdoor Voices tramp stamp. I'm too old. And that is like bedazzled. Anyway, doesn't really matter. There are certain things bedazzled. The shorts are embroidered. Hopefully as they if it does well and she gets to release more product, hopefully there will be a little more stuff for people who are not interested in like a super.

17:38But I thought generally I thought the colors were really good. And I thought But to see for me as a person who writes about how people merchandise their collections and things like that, that's what was interesting to me was like why she put a banker shirt in there, why she used these specific colors, like a bunch of powdery pastels, but then also brights. And there was no purple. Things like that is interesting to me. I love that they use Ariel Kellogg as one of the models. She's one of my favorite. it. She's just like a TikTok weirdo who does nunchucks wearing really cool outfits that she thrifted.

18:17And I think she, you know, she's also beautiful, but she genuinely has her own style and she's interesting and she looks, she makes the OV stuff look super cool. And I love that she's using nunchucks in them. Yeah. I, to me, it's a little heavy on the exercise dress and I I get that that's what they're sort of known for at this point. But other than tennis, what are you wearing an exercise dress for if you're not just, you know, wearing it to sort of flounce around in your free time? Yeah, that is a very particular person that is not either either of us.

19:02so this kind of brings me then to the next thing which is there was a lot of dialogue last week about the return of the girl boss there was a piece in the in bloomberg yeah about it that honestly i felt was i was troubled by it and then danielle prescott who i'm a big fan of her work and I've known her for a long time. She wrote an essay in her substack that was essentially like, Danielle wrote a great book called Token Black Girl about her experience working in the fashion industry and has written novels since. But she, like during the sort of girl boss reckoning, Danielle had an advisory agency that I think she probably still has her works.

19:48I think she still has her works. I hope they do, yeah. with Chrissy Rutherford that where they sort of went in and were hired by brands to essentially advise them on how to be less racist and how to be more inclusive and all these I don't want to use too many of the buzzwords that don't mean anything but like make structural changes to their businesses so that they could make it better for everyone and I thought Danielle she she made a point of like the media is essentially just propping up these women again in this way and they're given permission to come back and reconstitute their lives and no one's talking about all the things that happen look I think one of the challenges in Danielle's piece and I want to have her on to kind of talk more broadly about this stuff soon but um is that like Like a lot of the people that were in that girl boss cohort weren't racist.

20:48Yeah, I mean, I guess that's kind of my point is that they were held accountable for sort of societal and business world and economic problems that they alone, especially as a cohort of young women entrepreneurs, could not solve themselves, nor should they be held accountable. And they were held to standards that are much higher than we're holding for, you know, the sort of techno overlords of the world and, you know, just men who run giant companies that, you know, are filled with misdeeds. And so these are not Harvey Weinsteins. Like these women are not doing things that were illegal. You know, they are I don't even think they're guilty of white collar crime or anything.

21:52So I think that they got in some ways unfairly maligned in some ways because they were blamed for work environments that a lot of places have. And they were really targeted and sort of people really, you know, there was a little bit of a like burn the witch relish in their downfall because but also the flip side of that is they were, you know, more or less all white, all conventionally attractive, all got so much press and publicity, which they can sort of act as serious as they want or like sort of accidental. but you know, they are putting publicists on retainer and hiring people to get that kind of publicity.

22:47Like they wanted it. Well, yeah. So this is the thing that I think it's just every single one of those situations. We both, you wrote, the reason I wanted to talk about this with you is you wrote a book about Emily Weiss, one of the kind of OG girl bosses, the founder of Glossier. It's called, I hope people buy it. Glossier. Yes. Please buy Marissa's book and also buy her, her new book about the it girl about Jane Birkin. That's coming out in October. We're going to talk, we're going to have a dedicated entire episode to Jane and in a couple of months, but I can't wait. But I think the thing that is frustrating to me and what I, what I really took issue with was the Bloomberg piece is that the reason as someone I covered a lot of these companies as businesses.

23:36Like Nasty Gal, for instance. I wrote a piece about Nasty Gal for Racked in 2015, where there was like a lot already, a lot of complaints online about the workplace culture, yada, yada, yada. The thing that bothered me about Nasty Gal was that for four years in a row, they had articles in Inc., Entrepreneur, Forbes, Fortune, saying, this is an amazing business. It's going to do over a hundred million dollars a year in sales. And I was like, but every year it's going to do over a hundred million. That means it's not growing. No one did any actual reporting on the business. They just saw a good looking white woman and they were like, oh, she'll, she would look great on our cover.

24:19Well, yeah. And she wrote, I mean, she kind of made the word girl boss popular. She wrote a memoir called hashtag girl boss. Um, speaking of things that seem dated from 10 years ago. And he was even made into a Netflix show. And yeah, I mean, she was a very good self promoter. Like a lot of her book was about how rich she was and, you know, the Porsche bought in cash and stuff like that. Like it's a, you know, it's a, it's, it's easy to understand why that's a sort of sexy story to cover. But I think everyone looks kind of bad in that the journalists who were breathlessly covering it, the people that were so eager to have their downfall, the companies that swore that they would make changes, whether it was their own companies or larger companies that hired consultants like Danielle and didn't really do anything.

25:18And now we're in this kind of, you know, post-woke movement. I did in a profile of Yael Afalo, who you had on recently. And, you know, she was kind of lumped into that with Reformation. And one thing that really struck me was when she was talking about businesses she invested in and friends, you know, she and Leandra Medin did their, um, like lab grown jewelry collaboration. Um, and you know, she was, she was an investor and Audrey Gelman's company. And it struck me as fascinating. And the story I want is like, these women still are close. And I don't know if it's because that era banded them together and the fallout or if they, you know, genuinely have like real bonds as entrepreneurs.

26:16And to me, that's that's interesting. And I would love to know more. I agree. And I think you mentioned Yael and being lumped in. I covered what happened with her very closely. I broke all the news around it. And what I will say is, A, there were definitely workplace culture issues at Reformation. She publicly apologized for them. A lot of the things she was accused of were not true. I was going to say, they hired independent sort of audits of the company culture. And it was dismissed. There was some pretty awful stuff. And that's the thing. But that doesn't even matter. It didn't matter in that era where it was enough to just j 'accuse.

27:03Yeah. And, you know, I, I, yeah, I feel for them. I, in some ways I'm inspired that it's, I think part of the problem of that sort of cancellation wave of, you know, five years ago is that there was no path forward. Like what happens when you're canceled? How do you repent? How do you start over? Are you allowed to, you know, are you just supposed to be sort of public enemy? for the rest of your life, even if you were like 30 when that happens. And they are showing a way sort of forward in a sort of post-cancellation era and what that looks like, whether people support it or not. Yeah, I think, look, it's all complicated and it should be interrogated.

27:54And I'm glad for people like Danielle who can write about this stuff thoughtfully. what is frustrating to me is the sort of everybody was part of this. Like everybody. I feel very complicit. Take responsibility. Yes. Yeah, I do too. And that's the problem is these girls, there's something about them that really brings it out in people. It's like the popular girl that you want to be nice to you and friends with, but then you also want her downfall. It really brings out the inner adolescent in everyone. myself very much included. I try to be thoughtful about it, but I think that people are all too eager to take them down and they are all too eager to move forward maybe.

28:46And so there needs to be maybe a little more meeting halfway, but we're not living in sort of a societal moment where there's a lot of nuance or people wanting to meet halfway about literally anything? No, everything is binary. There's no critical thinking and the world is doomed. And that's why I've been watching state fair food halls on TikTok late at night. Oh, wow. I don't do TikTok, but I do watch YouTube. Okay. Well, I'm sure people are doing them there too. And it's so soothing and so gross. that sounds disgusting and and hilarious so speaking of another sometimes gross thing can we talk about the street style at copenhagen fashion week because one of our mutual friends i don't want to out her here but she was like it is so bad i can't take it it's so awful So it's pretty bad.

29:42I've been trying to think about why it's bad. And here's what I think. So Fashion Week has been this balance of people who are there to work and people who are there to be seen. And, you know, in the 80s and 90s, it was like heavy on the fashion editors and heavy on the buyers. And, you know, the certain fashion weeks have different sort of ratios. You know, New York is becoming more and more the peacocks of people who want to be seen. And that can be their job, too. And Copenhagen, because of the time and because of the place, is not really somewhere where I think a lot of sort of senior critics or writers are going or being sent.

30:30And so I think you have it weighted way more towards the people who are going to be seen and to enjoy Copenhagen, which is a wonderful city that I'd love to be in right now. And it's also just a fashion week where trends go to die. Like if I see one more double belt around a jacket, if I see one more scarf in a triangle knotted around the waist, I'm going to lose it. Speaking of Leandra Medin, people, she's a big inspiration to me too. but like literally no one, like they have no imagination. They literally look at Leandra's outfits and they copy it for like 15 years. I love a scarf worn in an interesting way.

31:28I love wearing a scarf as a halter. The beauty of like go into any Hermes and people are wearing scarves real weird and cool inside there that work there. Like it's not, it's just so, um, it's supposed to be sort of so free spirited. It's like this fashion week full of sort of, um, you know, manic pixie dream girls, but they all look exactly the same. The big oversized sort of, you know, Bonson style dresses, the bright colors, the, the flip-flops, which I say as someone who wears flip-flops and always has as a native Californian, they're my birthright. But like, it's all just so the same. And it's kind of everything that's wrong with the way people dress and dress up.