The Good, the Bad, and the Versace

0:04Hello and welcome to Fashion People. I'm Lauren Sherman, writer of Puck's fashion and beauty memo line sheet. And today with me on the show is the New York Times reporter, Jacob Gallagher. We're reviewing Milan Fashion Week, previewing Paris, and chatting about the death of the sleeper. Happy Tuesday, everyone. I'm in Paris. Woohoo! Maybe that is the response. I don't know. I went to a dermatologist yesterday. Unfortunately, she's retiring, so no, I cannot send you her info. I'm sorry no more this poor woman she's like inundated with American women asking for her info anyway she's great I really like her I'm sad she's retiring I also saw the new Saint Laurent show I went to the Virgil Abloh exhibit we're going to talk about that a little bit more later be sure to check it out in Line Sheet on Monday you'll find my big Milan report a scoop about Fendi and some shopping Intel too and on Tuesday day.

1:08Kind of an intro to the shows this week, which are obviously a big deal. More on the Virgil exhibition. And Sarah Shapiro has a mailbag issue as she is on holiday. I hope she's enjoying it and not listening to this. Let's get going with our dear Jacob.

1:27Jacob Gallagher, welcome back to Fashion People. Hi. It's good to see you, Lauren. I missed you. It's been a very long time. I you know we really missed you in Milan yeah I mean I meant it's been a long time since I've been on this podcast but I had a child so I wasn't working for about four and a half months but I'm back at work congratulations I'm so happy for you guys and also glad that you took your paternity leave as every man should I did every man should take it it was an amazing time I you know cannot I recommend more that time if you can take it. It's true. He's a cutie. So anyway, understandable that you're not here, but let's just get right into it.

2:12You missed a lot in Milan. It was so fun. It was one of the more, you know, Milan is so weird, but also so fun. It's funny because I think on the men's side, we get such like a truncated version of Milan Fashion Week often. Yeah. Though maybe that will change now with some of these new designers in Milan. We'll see where they land on when they show and how they show. But yeah, of all seasons for me to miss, this felt like a real banger of a season and maybe an agenda setting one in Milan, which never seems to be the case recently. True. So before we get into the shows, there was just breaking news that Sylvia Venturini Fendi stepped down, which is interesting because we're recording this on Monday afternoon.

2:55I've obviously written Tuesday's line or Monday's line sheet already. Monday's line sheet and I I knew my my item was about Maria Grazia Churi joining Fendi and them announcing it I heard October 1st I don't know if that's for sure I know she's joining and I had heard that she was going to also own men's which I wasn't sure about that I knew that the sureness is that she's joining the other stuff I wasn't positive of but it's really interesting what do you think of of Ms. Fendi stepping down and what do you think their men should look like? I'm not the least bit surprised that that this news is coming.

3:39I think the rumors have swirled for so long now. And also, I think lately, the past couple of Fendi shows have felt really big and felt really like kind of statement making, you know, post kind of Kim Jones. I think there's there's been a feeling of, you know, every show kind of made, I was at the show, I guess now, whatever, six months ago. And I remember even then kind of thinking like, okay, this feels like they're really blowing this out. And like, what is kind of, what are they trying to say with that? And, you know, she, she's the, we don't have many people like that anymore that are part of the family.

4:19That's still, you know, I'm into her. that's still working the brand that has their name on it um i i think with men's it's it's going to be a a challenge i i think with where that brand tends to sit historically and and what it kind of offers you know i'd be curious who comes in and kind of tries to blow up that archive a little bit because it's not like a brand that i think a lot of men look to of being like this is great and i need to look at fendi and you know it certainly has a consumer you could definitely see that at the shows but um we'll see if it is maria grazia i'd be very very very curious of what she does because she's you know obviously at dior there there was no men's and you know um i think it's interesting to me that that if that is the case like you said if she does take over men's that that would be the second big hire in milan in particular that handles both jobs you know um And obviously at Gucci, it's been that way.

5:22But, you know, it's interesting that like, you know, compared to kind of the LVMH brands in Paris in particular, where they have the kind of two designer role like at Vuitton, for example. But, you know, now maybe are we seeing the consolidation again with, you know, Jonathan at Dior, Demna at Gucci. Like, you know, it's an interesting thing because Fendi was always one of those brands until very, very recently that had the split between men's and women's. Totally. I think what I know from people very senior at LVMH is that they really wanted her to do this job very badly, Maria Grazia. And there were challenges with it.

6:00Look, like whatever happened behind the scenes at Dior, it was not a smooth transition. And I think she has she doesn't need a job. She has this teatro in Rome that she's restoring. Like she has a lot of stuff to do. and also other houses would happily pay her. She's a great commercial designer. A lot of these, what I think is interesting about this is a lot of her clients are gonna move to Fendi now. It'll be the same woman that Dior might lose, but Dior's about to gain a lot and we'll talk about that a little bit later. But I also think, I think giving her both was probably a, it probably sweetened the deal a bit.

6:42So, yeah, I guess I should reassess what I said, because now that I'm thinking I'm like this now, like she would put like LV as really being the outlier, you know, because. Yeah. Dior, Givenchy, you know, Gucci, again, like these big labels, they are all under the kind of one creative direction. And I guess, you know, I guess we'll see what comes with Indy if that is the case. Yeah. And I think look like Nikola, I think, has did he sign a 10 year or five year when he resigned? he has 10 or he has a few more years Pharrell is probably doing three-year deals there's a chance that LV could end up under that configuration too it's interesting because these are such big companies that you think to one person can't handle it but let's see I think if it works with Dior and and if Maria Grazia is doing both for real maybe they'll surprise us tomorrow with a different name or October 1st with a different name for the men's.

7:39But if she's doing both and both of those things work, then maybe they will move towards that. It's fascinating. Okay. Let's talk, Milan. What did you love? What did you hate? What were you jealous to have missed? I mean, shoot. I feel like for longtime listeners of your podcast, we shouldn't even talk about, you know, Jill, because everyone knows that. I think we have to talk about Jill. I feel like we are like partially personally responsible for Simone Belaute's appointment at Jill Sandler. I would never, ever, ever say that. Listen, that show was great to me. I think the question that I have now is where OTB will position that brand in terms of, I think, price will matter a lot.

8:26I think, you know, I was talking about it with a friend of mine who's a buyer this weekend. and we were kind of discussing like that look is very compelling for a consumer that's kind of a guy frankly similar to me I think like kind of in their 30s in their 40s you know in in a big city but you know how does the price how where the price is going to be a big be a big factor there because to buy into that look you know if those suits come in and they're ten thousand dollars it's it's going to be really I think it's going to be difficult it's going to be really hard for them. And it's also like, what are they going to do marketing wise?

9:01You know, how are they going to package it celebrity wise? There's a lot of questions now. The statement was made. I thought it was a very clear collection. I thought it was very compelling. It was a very smart way to dress. And there was a lot of, I think, surrealist aspects in it. He tempered it a little bit from the last ballet collection, I think, smartly. It worked. And there was a shoe that's going to work commercially, I think, but the rest of the stuff, the ready to wear, I'm really curious what it will look like in store and how consumers will receive it. I've not known what a Jill consumer is now for many, many, many years.

9:41Now I'm curious what that consumer will be. Okay. A couple of things. I talked to a retailer as well the night of the show. And this person said to me, or was it? Yeah, it was the night of the show. And that first of all, for anyone listening. The images that they've sent out now are better, but like the runway looks flattened. It was much, the material looked really good in person. So it looked better in person. If I had seen it, I would have been like, it looks fine. But, and you're right, the shoes, I thought the sort of chukka, but then also that little lace up shoe was that, that's going to go.

10:17So this person said, you know what, like Jill Sander should, is not an expensive brand. It should be like Dries prices and Dries is extremely well priced. It's just so there's so much value there. And that's what it always was. And the interesting thing is like I with Luke and Lucy, who I think are really cool. And I love their first few I didn't love but I liked their first few collections very heavy, always too heavy. But but I bought a bunch of stuff the first season because they used to have a store on the Upper East Side. And I got like a very cool coat on sale. And I got some like classic Jill, Blazer, that type of thing.

10:56And then they kept taking the prices up. And so I think, yeah, I think that is going to be a big factor and to see if they can produce at the level they need to produce at, at the pricing. And there are very few brands at this point that are able to kind of do that. Like we talk about Oralee, but that's like a very particular supply chain. Dries just has their supply chain down pat. OTB has a great supply chain. And I went to MM6 and I have to say like that collection's a great, it's so well done. You're like, do you disagree? It's fine. It's like you put it at Mohawk General, everybody buys it.

11:39Like it's like the perfect filler in for stuff. It looks nice. it's not like I was like screaming for like I definitely want the skirt suit from the Jill show but um not that I have anywhere to wear it but um but I think you're totally right it's gonna be and we'll see um and I and and I thought the first campaign they did was really good so but it's tricky it's it's a tricky market right now and that's what everything that comes out I'm like but what is the price going to be because if you're at trees prices you have a chance if you're at like normal prices is that is anyone going to bother no normal prices which are like so eye-wateringly high that it kind of i think makes fashion in a lot of ways a spectator sport and and i think it i'm waiting for it again to see if someone will figure it out and kind of i shouldn't say figure it out listen if this is if this is where these companies want to take these brands and they look around at their competitors and they say, to feel luxury, quote unquote, we need to be coming in at$7 ,000 for a sweater and five figures for a coat.

12:48That's their prerogative and that's where they're seeing the money. I just think it's very interesting that what we're kind of talking around is I'm awaiting the brand that's going to say, okay, this is a gap in the market and maybe we live here and this is where our business can thrive. I'm not seeing brands try that right now. And we'll see. But that show, I thought that was a really great statement and a really crisp reminder of why minimalism, I think, does have, to some people, is still so compelling. I wouldn't call what he did entirely minimalistic, but there were so many traces of Jill's work in there, and I really did like that show.

13:31On the other end of the spectrum, Versace was the other show that I was kind of very sad to miss. And definitely a show that I think... Did you love it or hate it? I really did like it. I looked at it several times. I think my initial reaction, I should say, and this is a larger meta conversation about Versace and what is going on behind the scenes there and their confidence or perhaps seeming lack of confidence in him. That show wasn't streamed. And I did find that very interesting. interesting I didn't know that that's a good little nugget because someone was actively texting me a friend was actively texting me he was at the show and I was like trying to find it I was trying to catch up and start streaming it halfway through couldn't find it maybe it was on some site I wasn't looking at but I checked the Versace website and YouTube and the whole thing and I didn't find it so I you know I felt like I was playing catch up after seeing videos on Instagram and then I looked at the collection and man, it is amazing that if you just put a lot of color in your collection right now, it feels so different of what everything else that's going on is, you know, you know, New York fashion week was so black and beige and sad, uh, except for Tori, I guess.

14:48True. Good point. And then, you know, even the, those early shows that we've seen in Milan so far, you know, you know, color is just not a priority for these companies right now. Versace was just doing something completely different. And I liked it. There were some really, really wackadoo proportional ideas in there. You know, the crop waistcoat. Messed up crotches. Messed up crotches. The crotches are where I would draw the line, I think. They were funny. I kind of liked it. I obviously wouldn't. No one's going to wear it like that, but it was funny the way they were tugged. But some, you know, it felt true to the brand.

15:27It felt very much more, I think, the Gianni era of designing than anything that would be, you know, the Donatella period to me at least. But I think it's good directionally. I think that there is a consumer that wants that kind of look out there. Again, I'll be curious to see what kind of efforts they put behind it as a company. um you know we've all heard of the drama uh you know you know and and and the kind of questions about um what's going on behind the scenes there but um i i would hope that they you know give this a go because it was fun and i think right now there's not a lot of fun on the market and uh yeah i know it wasn't well received online like i was looking at what people were saying about online i was like oh i guess maybe i'm misreading something here but i think people are people are primed to, I think, want a certain kind of clothes right now.

16:24And, you know, Versace, that definitely didn't feel this moment in fashion, which I think is actually a good thing.

16:35Okay, a few things. One is, obviously, something's going on. Lots of things. We've both heard tons of stuff. The things that we know and we can say publicly is that Donatella Versace did not go to that show, even though she's a global brand ambassador, and she didn't post about it. there's a lot of other stuff going on behind the scenes that maybe someday we'll all report on and and be able to nail down but for now let's just say that the other thing is obvious they said that they were gonna do a presentation which I reported and broke that news thank you WWD for not crediting me as usual um but um I'm just kidding I don't I don't really care when they don't credit me it's fine but um they I called them I said I heard you're not gonna have a show they said we're going to do an intimate presentation this was no intimate presentation it was a giant in the oldest museum in milan tons of these little rooms a giant set with like vignettes and like there was a bed with his bed sheets like his own bed sheets um i was totally startled by it and felt totally engaged and if they don't keep him they are nuts He is so talented and it was amazing.

17:49Like here's who I think I actually, when I was leaving and I wrote this in the piece, hopefully it didn't get cut out. I still haven't read the edit, but I think he's actually in conversation with Michael Ryder because like he grew up, they're all the same age as me. You're a little bit younger than us. I will not reveal your age, but we're all like 1980 to 1984 essentially. and this felt like I was walking around a movie set in Milan in 1983 and Michael's show was like Willie Smith 1980s and backstage Dario said he's not nostalgic sure neither am I but like this is what we this is what we knew growing up like these are the images of things that we saw like this obviously Miami Vice was not a reference for him but like you could see it like had the the trickle down of what Versace did in Miami Vice or whatever so like that part of it got me it really got me and I also it really reminded me of Alessandro Michele's first show at Gucci because I didn't I wasn't there I didn't go to that show but I remember seeing it online and being extremely upset about it because it looked like Zara clothes or vintage clothes from a dress-up closet, like a dress-up box.

19:14And I think this felt like very vintage, and it made people uncomfortable. And then a season later, everybody was like, this is the best thing that's ever happened. I thought the shoes were incredible. I will definitely buy them. I'm sure the question for me is, sure, they're going to alienate a consumer. how many people that is who are like diehard Versace clients at this point. There is a way to still service those clients through merchandising and special atelier products, all of that stuff. But the reality of it is Capri, the owner of Versace, has not been a good manager of that brand. And it's about to go into a machine of a company that can manage it.

20:03So here's hoping whoever is fighting behind the scenes can make up kiss and make up because this is gonna work and it could be really good for everyone involved and so I also backstage look like I don't do a lot of backstages in Milan I tend to do more because it's a little less crazy here I get nervous and just don't end up going but he talked to us for 15 minutes he answered every question and very with a lot of thought and I thought some of the communications was a little overwrought around the show and I was like oh this is and he was amazing like I he's a star and if they if they can figure out again pricing like those shoes if if those woven shoes are a thousand bucks or even 1300 that you're gonna be able to sell them if they're 1885 you're not if they're 675 or 900 then you definitely are so I hope but but it is there is something going on and Demna is part of this crew too of like these early 80s kids who they're all and I went to the Virgil exhibit today at the Grand Palais but Virgil same thing like I think Virgil is 80 or 81.

21:18And so like walking through that exhibit, I was like, oh, the last 30 years of my life are here, not in the same way I experienced it, but in the way someone did. And I think that's what is the sort of through line of all these people that are kind of coming up. And Demna, same thing. He's obviously been around longer and had more experience. And you saw that come out in the um in in his show did you go to the screening in new york no it i mean it's super fun and like wacky i loved it it was better than the gucci movie even though i i did love house of gucci it was really really something but um but what did you think of the gucci collection well what i will say to versace and i i keep thinking about kind of this this this feeling that I have that we're kind of stuck uh as as like a broader you know like the fashion world kind of feels stuck in terms of how these where we are trend wise where we are you know and how people are dressing right now and I think it's important that like the Versace that he was putting forward it's like you can kind of find some of those traces in the vintage market now like I was texting a friend and I said this looks like the Versace that you find at Laura Collegi which is maybe too like insular New York of a reference but it's like it's the stuff you'll find it like a good vintage store and like totally and and you'll kind of you'll maybe be like oh i'm surprised that this was versace or like it'll defy your expectations but i think it's it's important that these designers you know whether or not people are buying the clothes directly like i think michelle's gucci worked in a lot of ways because like he was pulling stuff like the bit loafers that people then could find on the vintage market if they wanted which only further perpetuated the trend and then you saw that just helped the brand feel like it was culturally huge And we'll see if that happens with Versace.

23:07But I think that the fact that it feels in conversation with what's out there and the way people are shopping now, I think is actually really important. Yeah. The one thing on it is that the difference between when that happened over 10 years ago and now is that people were not shopping the secondhand market like they are now. So I think that's been an issue for Michele at Valentino. I think that's right. I think that's absolutely right. The difference is the McKaylee proposition is a, I think that's like has a lot to do with how it's been merchandised and maybe that'll change now that they have new executive leadership.

23:42But also it is an extension of something we already sell. We haven't seen this in those striped jeans. I'm sure you could find a copy of them, but like I'm too lazy to do that. I'm also not going to wear the striped jeans. But anyway, your Gucci take I need to know. I think it's a very good foundation. I think it was a very smart hire and now looks that way. There's a lot of goodwill around Denda, especially critically. It has seemingly transferred over. People liked this, I thought. I am a little, if I can speak personally, and I think, actually, no, I'm not even going to say this personally.

24:17I think that this is maybe something that the fashion industry should pay attention to. This celebrity reliance, I wonder, I do just, it's an open question to me how much people care in this day and age. Like he, it was very interesting to me that he so closely aligned the brand immediately with celebrity and having it be worn by, by celebrities in this movie, by it being about who directed it, about the actors and showing up at this thing and blah, blah, blah. You know, the power of celebrity in this age, I think is to me fading a little bit. I think people see through the mechanisms they see through, you know, they know how these brand deals happen unless you're like a diehard, diehard fan.

25:03But even in that case, are you really then a consumer? I think it was cool and it was cheeky and I get that. I want to see maybe the step beyond that i i there was maybe to me placing it on celebrity doing the movie having it be like a red carpet thing which he's he has done before and put it a little bit it made it feel a little inaccessible to me a little impenetrable um and i'm really curious what where he goes from here i i think there is a sense that at balenciaga it worked because that wasn't as massive a brand Gucci is more of a mass luxury brand to me especially him the scale it's at now him coming in at this scale and I think I want to kind of see it on people and and get a sense of of what it's going to look like in its trickle down package um but the clothes themselves I I I was into it and and it was a very clear he's a he's a very very good designer he just is he's a real professional.

26:09Yeah, he really is. The clothes looked really professional. And Becky, our friend Becky Malinsky, went to the Reese's the next day in New York, and she sent me a photo of the Jackie bag that he did. And the last version of that bag, which is a great silhouette, very similar to an Hermes trim, if anyone's interested, was done in a very crackly, tacky leather. It looked very cheap. He has done it in a beat-up brown leather. And I was like, shit, that's going to sell in a second. I think he's just, the clothes are just impeccable. He's a professional. I was talking to him after the show and he was saying, and he was so open and he was available to all of us.

26:48Like really, he's just like a class act. And he was saying, you know, the archives are just barely touched. Like there's just so much in there. I think a really interesting point about the celebrity look like Gucci is so connected to celebrity and they do this big LACMA gala. This is going to be his first show. and I did like look like Spike Jones baby girl director lady I'm into that situation so it for me it was great I like when you just you just you're like I know I can't pronounce it you're like I'm not gonna try to pronounce her name right now I don't it's like whatever but um they both look great anyway I enjoyed it it was it's for me like this is the thing Demna again is like 42 or 43 or whatever.

27:35But I think you're right about this. You're picking up on something. You should do a piece about this. I think the cut did something about this, but there's always another angle. The prices, I wrote about this this summer, the amount of money they are paying people for these contracts is crazy because the luxury brands generally do not have an understanding of like how much they should pay for who and there's sort of no broker like the agents are doing a great job selling these people and they're making money and good for them but there's no one who has an understanding of the market so they're just throwing like insane money at people who may not actually generate a lot and i don't know in the case of gucci i think that demy more is is an interesting person for them i do know because i live in la i knew they were filming the movie i yeah all that's they're filming like 10 minutes from my house there were a lot of people who were supposed to be in that movie that weren't in it like it they because like anything like people get attached to a project and they move and yeah and um and i think like we're gonna see i i do think you're right that we've hit a saturation point i had um lunch a friend fixed me up with a producer of of commercial shoots just to have lunch like Eastside mom type vibe.

29:02But what she was saying was that she's like, nobody's choosing celebrities this time. Of like the kind of smaller brands with a lot of money because it's just so oversaturated. So I think you're onto something for sure. All right. So I will offer one show that I was, I would say let down by that I was disappointed. I did not like Votega very much. I think it was, and I think she's incredibly talented. that I thought she was punching outside her weight class at Carvin. And I really liked, you know, as we've talked about before on the show, I think, like, I really like tennis. Lorenzo Musetti looked great in the Bottega leather jacket as he approached the court earlier this summer.

29:46But, like, and I liked, I forgot who it was at Cannes that I think was in a suit. Vicky Creeps wore a dress from her, and she looked fabulous. maybe there was a lord suit too or something but but but this show it felt incredibly heavy to me looking from afar i did not like that shoulder line that extended shoulder i just felt like there was a lead in atmosphere to the whole collection and it felt just overwrought and and and and like she was really trying to squeeze herself into his box a little bit to met to met you's box and it suffered for it. I think there should have been more of her in there.

30:28I didn't, this one, I thought, this is nothing, this is, we're wheel spinning here. I use the word heavy. It's the only word you could use. I, look, I have a huge amount of respect for her. She has worked her ass off and worked at a bunch of brands where she had no money. And so when I went backstage, when we went backstage, I asked her about this and she was, and I could just see she just lit up and she was like, it's amazing. I think she was probably a little overwhelmed of what's available to her. What I would say is I think it was too heavy, the negatives, it was too heavy. And I think, I don't think she was trying to stay in Mattu's box.

31:08She is not a directional designer. She does not have a look that feels, her look is from other people. And some people are just like that. Like, and then that's the way I said it without using the PP word because like, give the woman a break. But that is what the situation has always been. And that's fine. I think the challenge is what, not to go back, and I didn't mention this because I'm like, I need to stop going after the stylist. I think it could benefit from her. She's very close with her stylist. I don't even want to name the person here because it's just like, they're like, very, very, very, very, very close.

31:52And I they clearly have a connection. And I do think what I will say is, all the retail people were like, I really liked it. I think it's gonna sell. It's just, it's not going to be directional, and it needs to lighten up. So if she's able to lighten it up a bit, and she just used so many different techniques, understandably, because like and it also did feel like cohesive like she knows what she wants to say it's just like the thing that he did I was texting a friend the the like designs the um like Murano glass chairs and then the design stuff and he said like there is no fantasy and that Mattu it was all about the fantasy that being said like a lot of his stuff that the weight of the leather is an issue.

32:43Well, that was always, I always felt like that with his, like, I, and I always felt like I was on kind of an Island there. I'd go and see it and I would, cause I mostly, I think interacted with it in the showroom because he didn't show during men's and you go and you kind of look at it and you're like, this is just dense. Like, and you'd see it on celebrity and it would just look, you know, seasonally wrong or wrong for the occasion. Cause it had just such a heaviness to it yeah so so i think i think you're right i hope and i was very like i just wanted to be respectful because it's really hard and i'm really happy for her and honestly like proud of her like it's it's awesome um i hope that everybody gave some constructive feedback and wasn't just like this was fabulous because there it needs to be they need to work on it but i think it was like okay let's figure it out and hopefully she does um she's awesome and and we are we are hope we're hoping that it she gets it right okay really quickly and then i want to talk about sneakers what are you excited for in paris the kind of basic answers like you know i think i think dior I this is you know his first women's I think that the women's he's shown so far again on celebrity on the red carpet has been let's say polarizing I think maybe let's let's put it that way.