The Great Fashion Defenestration

0:04Hello and welcome to Fashion People. I'm Lauren Sherman, writer of Pucks Fashion and Beauty Memo Line Sheet. And today with me on the show are Laura Brown and Christina O 'Neill, authors of All the Cool Girls Get Fired, How to Let Go of Being Let Go and Come Back on Top. We're discussing their respective de-frenestrations, The New Chanel, Runway Rage, The Victoria Beckham Dock, and plenty more. Happy Tuesday, everyone. I am in Los Angeles. I'm heading to Nashville tomorrow for a couple of days to check out a new Hermes store. All the big wigs are coming in from Paris for it. But I'm really going there to see Libby Calloway.

0:46At least that's a big part of it. If you don't know Libby Calloway, I don't know what you're doing with your life. Anyway, I'm sure I'll have plenty more to share on Friday about that. In Monday's line sheet, I did an analysis of the Nike Skims launch and got some pretty interesting intel about the numbers. You may be surprised. But you have to read line sheet to find out. Please subscribe. In other news, RIP Diane Keaton. Laura and Christina and I were going to talk about this, but we forgot. So Laura, of course, like many celebs, is friends with Diane Keaton. And it's legit because Laura is actually friends with people.

1:23I don't know. It's an amazing skill. Not one that I have. Anyway, there are a million people who will dissect the significance of Diane Keaton's fashion choices over the next few weeks. I would say that I actually really disliked the way she dressed. I found it annoying. I didn't think she looked good. I thought she looked weird. But that's okay. It's better to have polarizing style than no style at all. And I think that's the lesson here. Most people just don't try. They don't wear what makes them feel good. At least she was wearing what made her feel good. It's not that I don't think she had style.

1:58I just didn't like it. And that's okay. Anyway, let's get going with Laura and Christina, who were unsurprisingly great. And I hope you enjoy this. Christina O 'Neill and Laura Brown, welcome to Fashion People. Thank you. Thanks for having us, Lauren. We've always wanted to be fashion people. You both are our ultimate fashion people. So first off, happy pub day. Thank you. Thank you. Golly. It's been a long time coming from a deleted Instagram post. Yes. Archived, archived. Archived. Yeah, I know it's a two and a two and a half years roundabout. We've aged. So quickly, I want to talk to you all about a lot of things.

2:45Obviously, the book is number one. Why did you? So so this book, all the all the cool girls get fired. What's the sub line? How to let go of being let go and come back on top. Exactly. How to let go of being let go because you are not your job, which is so true. I have to tell myself this every day for the last 20 years. You're not your job. I want to talk quickly about the kind of formatting of the book and why you all decided to write it, because it's very interesting. It's like a mix of self-help and also like personal stories of a lot of high profile and insidery people, but also obviously very famous people, Oprah, Katie Couric, so many of those.

3:29But where did this come from and why did you decide to do it? Gotta say we laugh all the time about the fact that neither one of us has read a single self-help book, but we happen to have written one. Well, it's interesting because of the way the format is not the typical. Yeah. It's service. I mean, we're magazine editors. So we come from an era of magazine making where service journalism was sort of part of how you talked about fashion. But to go back to the beginning, you know, the book came from the overwhelming response that we got to that Instagram post. that Laura put up the night we had drinks together, which was about two, three weeks, I think, after I had been fired.

4:20And we posted this picture on Instagram with the caption, all the coolest girls get fired. And the response was so immediate and overwhelming. Yeah, just, you know, you know, when you're like, in the movies, you're looking at messages coming, you know, and I was like, well, oh, my God, they just said all legends. Oh, actually that kind of maybe happened to me too like all of this stuff and it was just like oh we have touched a nerve yeah and and sort of like you could feel just this tiny little like psychological door opening you know and that's when you know we're like at night going okay and that's when christina called me um when all the most powerful things happen bathrooms we were both getting ready for the day like early the next morning and christina texted me actually and said something like this is a book you're already then even going like there's so many people getting laid off right now that could really this could really be helpful and that was two and a half years ago when we're obviously we just been laid off and we're looking around us and seeing what was going on and and the whole book also sprang from sort of our experience our experience in the media which has been some you know as we know all the all the things are going on the media and in some ways a bellwether for some things that are now happening in broader industries you know we've been facing headwinds for such a long time, but now it's just everywhere.

5:36Yeah, it feels like to me the thing I've been sort of reckoning with in the last year is if you work in an industry that is creative and that is at one time was extremely profitable or maybe is still extremely profitable in certain aspects, but that is becoming more and more difficult. So not only are people going to get laid off, but the businesses are changing and they're just going to get smaller. And, you know, as you all know, I live in LA, so I'm seeing it happening in Hollywood, but then in the fashion industry, it's happening too. And obviously in media is probably a little bit earlier, but it does feel like when you were all choosing, so the structure is kind of, how did, should you get a lawyer then the next next episode or next chapter is katie kirk's story of how when she got fired um how did you all decide who to feature i mean obviously if oprah's gonna do it yes but like how did you even know about asking oprah uh yeah so yeah the the double structure is is twofold number one we wanted to address the things that you freak out about first it's like you know a freak out terror alert like it's like number one money number two health care number three mental health, you know, and so we wanted to give, it's kind of like spinach and pie, you know, here's you eat your spinach and you, and here's how to handle your healthcare, but then let's give you a story of a woman who you think was never like you, who you would think is goals.

7:07She's never had a bad day. Oprah's been walking around with a basket full of produce in Maori for 20 years, you know what I mean? But guess what? So we chose these women because they're high profile, extremely successful, oftentimes extremely famous, but at some point they were all fired and they're in exactly the same position as so many of us. They weren't who they were. They weren't the level of success. And so the first notion is to bring an idea of community, like that happened to them too. And then just to fire up a dream a little bit, to be like, that happened to her? This happened. And then she picked herself up and Faye intervened or she recognized her skills or she made a pivot or whatever the situation is.

7:44And there's so many, everyone's successful in the book, but they all do different things. And so it was very, very deliberate. their firings are very different. I think that was another sort of lens that we put things through. We wanted to make sure, you know, my firing was actually quite kind of traditional and corporate, you know, in the HR room being pushed the packet of paper. But there's so many stories in the book where, you know, people are either fired by their clients, like the sports agent, or fired by the investors, they sort of welcomed into their companies, and then they got pushed out.

8:17So there are a lot of different kind of lenses on it that we thought were really important to share. So obviously some of the stories we knew, but then some of the women, you know, hadn't really shared their, you sort of had heard that at some point, Oprah, like it was kind of part of her narrative, but it hadn't been well told. I mean, when we interviewed her, she said, you know what, I've never really talked about this. Interesting. Yeah, you could go like in a bit of a Wikipedia and find a little thing, you know, and you sort of scrap around. But it was sort of from just Laura. We were like, did that happen to Oprah?

8:49And then we kind of ask around. And then some people put their hands up like, actually, Angela and Margarita Missoni that I know we'll get to. But they stuck their hand up in the comments on the first post saying we were, which was awesome. You know what I mean? To be that frank about it. Yeah, that one in particular was obviously interesting to me because I am and Angela, it's Angela, right? Yeah, Angela. Angela says in the book, I just think it's a really good brand. And Missoni to me as a reporter is this brand that like could be a billion dollar business and is like a hundred million dollar business.

9:26It drives me nuts because I just think it has all the ingredients. It has the design, familiar design. It has the name recognition. It has. Yes. Like everything. It would be there. So few brands left that are could are basically like turnkey that you could make really big. And Missoni is so obvious. And I thought, you know, I would hear about Angela kind of expressing dissatisfaction with the situation and was pretty open about it. But I think the fact that they kind of sat down and were really honest with you is it also just shows. I mean, obviously, you all have really great access, but the honesty that you got out of these people of these women is really, I think, rare.

10:18And and it will everyone, you know, even if even if you haven't been fired, you've you've experienced this feeling like everyone has experienced this sort of. displacement, feeling of displacement. And I think it does feel like a real toolbook for, and a comment on our culture and society at the moment. Yeah. It's lovely to take, sorry, the high profile and sort of not like they're just like us, but they are, you know? Sorry, Christina, go on. No, I was just going to say, in the case of Angela and Margarita, it was a really emotional conversation. And I think so many of the conversations we had, you know, I think me probably a little more than Laura.

11:04I'm a little more emo. Which is funny because I'm more like this most of the time and she's quieter, but she keeps it in for the emotions to come out. But it was so fascinating how many women were brought back to the room where it happened as soon as we got going and got talking. Like with absolute clarity, like Oprah could tell us what the guy who fired her was drinking, like what soda he had that morning. And I think, you know, when you're sort of hearing these stories from these super high profile people, and you think like, oh, Lisa Kudrow can't still carry this. Like, she remembers it like it was yesterday.

11:42And that was also sort of reassuring, because I mean, when we started, you know, kind of putting the book together and researching and doing a lot of these interviews, you know, it was still pretty raw for us. Now we're obviously two and a half years in and time is the greatest healer of all. But just having these conversations with these women who you think, oh, she's moved way past it. And then you sort of realize, oh, no. It's muscle memory. It's fascinating. Yeah. I'll never forget getting fired from the stationery store on Beacon Street in Boston. I forget those women's names, but oh no, I'll never forget them.

12:25And you know what? It's fine. I did lie to them and didn't tell them I was moving to England and I was. But they still suck. There's not a lot of fired for cause in our book. They definitely fired me because I was not good at the stationary stuff, like cutting the sheets. It was a really fancy stationary. Yeah, I'm like, I'm not, I can't do that kind of stuff. And I was like, I love stationery. I want to work here. And they were just like, this girl's too. She's not clean enough for this place. Wait, this is completely irrelevant because I wasn't fired. But I probably would have been when I moved back from London after doing my two year stint there when I was in my like mid 20s before I got back into magazines.

13:07I worked at the Versace for six weeks of Versace store in this big marble something in Sydney. But I couldn't gift wrap. Yes, I couldn't gift wrap. that was part of this too like i would just be like yeah tape and shit hilarious i did not know about this versace phase in your life laura but it kind of makes sense it's a sordid little secret would you like joke and call it versaise like make jokes about you know that's in my in my uh yeah uh like probably i just i was so i was so very bad but anyway thankfully i found something else to do.

14:12So I want to briefly talk about your defenestration. Sorry. And I just want to apologize to Christina. I never used the word defenestration. I think I called you that you got sacked. I like I used it. It's all good. Because I was very against using defenestration in line sheet. I was like, defenestration will never be in line sheet. And eventually I did allow it. I think Dylan has the exclusive on it. Dylan is the exclusive. I love it. I know. Eventually I did allow them to put it in once. They like inserted it and I was like, okay, fine. It's so good. I guess the question, Laura, you were lucky you, I was not a pocket when you got fired.

14:55What was your phrasing of being? She's, she's ascended. No. Terminated. Here's a question for both of you. I got terminated with my language. Yeah. Like you're both smart people. You're in the media. You had these jobs for a long time. Did you both like think this was going to happen or were you surprised? You're like, because obviously you both have been fine because you're both like incredibly talented. And I think seeing when it happened to both of you, I was like, well, those those people are not there are people that you think, well, who knows what will happen to them? And there are some of them who have asked me for free upgrades to Inner Circle because they can't get a job.

15:36They are men. But I knew you guys would be fine. So I'm just curious, like, did you know, like thinking about zooming out in the state of media, like, did you think you were going to do it for 10 more years? Or were you like, I think that I'm going to have to change up anyway at some point? We're different. I tend to go first because I was chronologically canned, sacked first. I was in stuff for five years, and when I first walked in the doors of Time Inc., I could have heard a death rattle because Time Inc. was going down pretty soon after. So I sort of got in the door, just started. Trump was elected for the first time.

16:17Time Inc. starts to die. I remember I hadn't been there that long. We had to lay off all that was happening. Then we get bought by Meredith, who is actually a bunch of conservative guys from Des Moines, who actually got on with really well. They were very straightforward. You know, they're kind of old school magazine guys. But that took us through. Then we ended up with COVID and all of that. So most, you know, a good two something years of my five were not in the office, you know. And so Meredith was good given that. And then we were, you know, when COVID had ended, we were, and I had in this time, I had registered my own business.

16:51I had like gone on like LegalZoom and gotten, you know, registered my business in Delaware and gone on like, go daddy and make myself a you know my own email address just to sort of I for some reason I knew that I was curious beyond it I also knew that I wanted to insure myself subliminally it wasn't like I'm gonna go and then we were bought by the third company which was at the time dot dash which became dot dash Meredith which is now called people Inc um but they they had owned us for they bought us I think in November 21 I guess and uh and then we were all let go February 2022 so So I was, no, I did and didn't because I was really quite thinking about doing my own thing.

17:32I was getting very tired of the change and the economics and all of the old fashions, things in fashion and the way you've got to try and keep your business alive. And we'd done such great work through COVID. Like we really did. I was so proud of everything we did. And then I remember, I write about it in the book, but I remember it was the next cover after, I certainly don't miss COVID, you know, but it was like we were doing some actress and and she was a Louis Vuitton face and she had to wear Louis Vuitton. And I was like, oh, God, we're back here, aren't we? We're back here just being SponCon and it's not my thing.

18:07And so I was a bit dog with a head out the window, I say, but that's it. I was so dog with a head out the window. I remember my managing editor saying one day, we don't have a budget yet. And I was like, oh, it'll come. And so I did not, even though I thought I might go at the end of 2022, I did not see February 2022 coming up. Yeah. What about you, Christina? I didn't see it coming. You know, there had been a regime change at the top of the masthead. And Emma Tucker was the fourth editor-in-chief of the newspaper during my tenure. You know, I was there for over 10 years. And so when she came in, you know, I just sort of kept my head down and kept doing what we were doing.

18:50um we had had a really good year advertising wise um the year before and had just been like growing and expanding and I mean I think the thing is when you stay in a job for that long so much changes like I always joke that when I started at WSJ I set up our Instagram account on my phone, which was my first iPhone. I didn't even have an iPhone until I got to the journal. I was a hardcore BlackBerry person and set up the Instagram with my cat's name as the password. I mean, that's how like lo-fi social media was when, you know, we took over. So it had been such a period of growth that every single like six months, like there was some new thing that we were tackling and we had just gone from strength to strength to strength.

19:45Like we had launched this digital team. You know, our print was so successful in terms of, you know, advertising, et cetera, et cetera. So when Emma came in, you know, obviously when you have a new boss, you're sort of thinking, okay, you know, maybe she's going to bring in her own people, maybe, You know, but then right when she started was when the whole situation in Russia happened with Ivan Gerskovich. Yeah. Gerskovich, sorry. So she was busy. I mean, that was like an international crisis of epic proportions. So it wasn't like I was sitting down, you know, on the fourth floor, like, you know, twiddling my thumbs wondering when I was going to get my moment.

20:30um and then you know finally a meeting was set and I was super excited to go knock her socks off and you know I had powerpoints and presentations and the whole thing and 10 minutes before the meeting it was changed from her office to HR and so you know I knew in the instant um but again And, you know, I certainly didn't see it coming. Yeah, it's interesting for me observing both of you as a reporter and did stories with both of you when I worked at my old job about your work. Laura, I remember going into your office at Eastyle and chatting. And just the thing to me that's interesting is like you both are people, examples of doing it right.

21:21Like, Christina, you were so untouchable to me. Like, the advertisers loved you. You have amazing taste. You had good access. You did interesting stories. You were consolidating power. Every year I was like, when is Christina going to take over more of this thing? Laura, you were sort of, to me, the new example of what an editor-in-chief of like a glossy should be. You were very public. You were accessible, but you also had access and you dreamed big and all of that stuff. And what both things show is like, it doesn't matter if there's another variable that you can't control and you can't control.

22:04Yeah. But it does take a minute to acknowledge that it was beyond my control. It did take time for me to see it. I mean, in the instant it happened, you know, of course, she didn't know me. Like, I'd never met Emma until that meeting. So it wasn't like I was being fired because she didn't think, you know, we didn't get on. we would gel. You know, she had no way of knowing, but the circumstances were beyond my control. You know, and it's not like every single thought that, you know, goes into someone making that decision is laid out bare for you. You know, I was just simply told she was going in a different direction.

22:51But also, I mean, thank you for saying both those things about us, but that was sort of behind the post in the first place, this sort of stubborn acknowledgement of like, no, we're good. We're good at our jobs. We remain good at our jobs. And we got fired. And we're not alone in that. And especially now with hundreds of thousands of people every week. You know what I mean? So one of the big messages of the book is do not take it personally because 99.9 % of the time these days, it's got nothing to do with you. And so it was a very quick, again, stubborn ownership because we think that that's what you work towards in your career is ownership, you know, of the good and the bad.

23:28And owning the bad helps you move on faster. So as you were, so you both, Laura, you have, you're doing a million things. You have like a sort of consulting project-based thing that you do. And then obviously, Christina, you're now editor-in-chief of Sotheby's magazine, which feels like the right, it felt like the right next thing for you and allows you to do what you do, but in kind of a more modern framework or something. But as you all were kind of figuring your stuff out, and Laura, you mentioned that you were already sort of thinking about this. How did you conceive, did you go to your agent, I'm sure you all had a book agent already or someone immediately and start plotting this?

24:17or did you think, okay, let's work out our individual situations and then we'll come back about the book? It all happened pretty fast. Yeah, well, I was already going. I was 14 months ahead of Christina when I got fired, so I had already been working on my own projects and I was working with Red and I was doing all my stuff. Oh, yes. So that was already, because a decent amount of time had passed for me, so thankfully I was, you know, and it was good because I was sort of the one out the road with the flashlight when she got fired going, it's okay. You know, so, you know, it only really gelled the book and Christina was at that point at Southern...

24:49I don't know when the book was happening. No, I was still at the journal. She was still at the journal. She just got laid off. So yes, for the book, the book came up directly after the podcast. I mean, after the... Sorry, after I said it again, the book came up directly after the Instagram post. And then actually, I didn't have a book agent. Then I had an unscripted agent, Bradley. And I was like, oh, would this be a thing? I know Bradley. He represents Puck. Yes, he does very proudly. Very proudly. And I said, can you connect me with Alyssa Rubin, who is a magnificent lead agent there. And so we moved really fast from that point.

25:20So we had written from when we met up, where it was sort of the end of April, by the end of May 23, we'd written a draft proposal on Christina's dad's couch at his 70th birthday. Shout out Larry Richards. Shout out Larry Richards. And sent that off. So yeah, then that started to cook. And then we sold it six months later to Gallery. Amazing. And okay, you're launching tomorrow. It's obviously going to be big. um that's definitely gonna be cross fingers noise yeah what do you all want like do you want to do a tv show with it what do you like is that like i'm sure i'm sure you're talking about it but what do you what in your dream scenario what would be the next thing that happens with this thing well the first thing has to happen is that we have to have a successful book Yeah.

26:09So we're really focused on that. Obviously, we're having interesting conversations, but we're really just trying not to get over our skis on it and stay in the moment and make sure that this book lands and connects with all the women out there that we're hoping to connect with. And we'll go from there. we know we have a community we know look we from from the again the instagram too and then we set up an email address as we were writing the book you know like share your stories and we had women just unloading on us you know so many of them are in the book as well so saying this is what's happening i've never actually said this before but so we know we have that community out there and even now we're a day out and some women haven't still haven't read it because it's not out you know but i've seen this on we did the oprah podcast like last week you're you being so honest about this has allowed me to be more brave and admit what happened to me and that's exactly why we did this you know women someone came up to me in the street last week and said I just got fired three days ago thank you for doing this book that's that's it you know because when you're that beetle on your back when you don't know where to go you don't know even where to start like we're like the road map and the hug you know that your friend can give you anyone can give you that you just don't feel as helpless especially now because it's the job market is such a mess yeah and also i think women are i've been thinking about this a lot because of i just got back from fashion month you sure did and it was a very weird fashion it was awesome i had a really great time and was depressed for the first time usually i'm like thank god but i was kind of sad to leave i don't know why it's rare and it was crazy everybody was being psycho like it was completely insane but but I liked it.

27:56I don't know. You've got to tell us more. Some of it we'll talk about offline, not for fashion people. But one thing that was interesting was there was this narrative that sort of came out of it that all the designers hate women. And I felt like Vanessa Friedman did this piece, which I obviously truly admire Vanessa. I love her writing. I love what she has to say, I almost never agree with her. And that's why I like her so much. But generally of this idea of like, women are just supposed to be everything. Like it never ends. Like you're supposed to be a good mom and be the primary caregiver, but then also have a fancy job and be powerful and successful and really hot and really skinny.

28:47And this whole idea that like there with body inclusivity, like it was complete bullshit everyone knew it like this idea it was just really interesting because the runways I wrote a little thing about like there was just like a lot of jutting hips and because it was just really thin again and then Vanessa wrote a lot about like she just felt like there was a lot on the runway that was sort of rude to women I didn't feel that way that's not how I interpreted those collections I thought it was more about like stuff just happens um And sometimes people just get carried away in a concept, you know, and we've seen that a million times, you know, and it's like, but that's like, you can't really walk in there, but they're like, yeah, sometimes I don't think I can see both sides of it.

29:32I don't necessarily think it's a vast conspiracy. I think people get sometimes too indulged, you know, and when something comes out, it's like, did you really think around that? Yeah. Or the idea of like they're commenting on what's happening in society right now, like at Margella, Glenn Martin's. Yeah, the mouth. The mouth's open. It when I wrote about it, I was like, this was the thing that I thought was the best. Right. About the show, like the show itself. I think he's amazing. I worship him. And I didn't think it was like, yeah, I didn't think the collection was it wasn't to me was it wasn't what it should be.

30:07But I thought that part of it, I was like, oh, that's such an interesting comment on what's happening right now. Whereas other people were really offended by it. But yeah, it's a fascinating time in that world. I'm so curious to know what you both thought about Chanel. Because I know you're both Chanel girls already. But like it was such an emotional moment. And I'm curious. I've gotten a lot of feedback. I was too nice about Chanel. And what's wrong with me? What? Well, I think that, you know, just to see that joy, I just love, look, I think I've seen Matthew once in my life. Like the fact that he worked and worked and worked and was the number two and the number two and the number two and the number two forever.