The Legacy of Valentino Garavani, the Great Prada Men’s Show, and Fashionable Sex

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2:29Hello and welcome to Fashion People. I'm Lauren Sherman, writer of Puck's Fashion and Beauty Memo Line Sheet. And today with me on the show is Isabella Burley, founder of Climax Books. We discuss the late Valentino Garavani, the men's shows in Milan, the state of couture, and sex in fashion.

2:51Happy Tuesday, everyone. I hope you're having a great week. This week in Line Sheet, I do a temp check on the class of 2025. Yes, we are three weeks into January, and you can already make comments and observations and judgments on what's happening with all those designer debuts. Sarah Shapiro looks into the affiliate marketing platform LikeToKnowIt. Many of you might be familiar with Amber Venn's box. She was like a big famous star in the early 2010s and Sarah checked in with her. It's an interesting story given that there's so much competition in affiliate marketing now. Rachel Strugeatz has a real whopper for Wednesday.

3:32I'm keeping this short because my kid is bothering me. And I want to get you to the conversation with Isabella as quickly as humanly possible. So let's get going.

3:47Isabella Burley, welcome to Fashion People. Thank you. Thank you for having me. Did you have a nice weekend? I did, but it's Blue Monday today, which is interesting. Do you know what Blue Monday is? It's basically the third Monday of January. It's meant to be the most depressing day of the year. Oh, really? But I'm not feeling too depressed today, so I feel like we're off to a good start. You know, I moved to California five years ago, and I no longer understand. You're no longer depressed. No, I mean, some days it was funny over the holidays, it rained quite a bit, which we were all thrilled for.

4:27And honestly, if it rains for a couple of days in Los Angeles, it's kind of fun because I can wear my raincoat and my boots and all of that stuff. but it rained for days and days and days and we were off two and a half weeks I only have one kid so like it's fine I'm not complaining and a lot of help and support and all that stuff but um I realized I said to my husband like this is why we moved here because what do you do with a child for two and a half weeks and you can't go outside there's nowhere to go like in New York or London and there are indoor places to take children. Sure. There's just nothing.

5:06Yeah, and after a few days, the novelty just wears off and you're like, oh. Yes. Well, I'm glad that this day is almost over for you. Are you based in London full-time or are you half New York, half London? I'm half New York, half London, which is kind of nice because I feel like I get a bit of the rest of both worlds. I feel very lucky to be able to do that. At this point in your life as an entrepreneur and a person who I assume enjoys the sort of village lifestyle of London, what does New York give you that London can't? I think there's just like an energy that's incredibly infectious. And I think the sense of like possibility and opportunity in a way that I think London has slightly less of.

5:59my boyfriend also lives there my best friend lives there so I feel like I have also like a life there that I really love but then I'm also like born and raised in London and I think it's like an incredibly special city we just opened the new Climax store in London so I feel like again like I'm falling back in love with the energy of London as well so it's kind of yeah having a bit of both yeah I lived in London for two years after I graduated from college and I enjoyed it. This was 2004, 2005 and it's a hard city. It's hard. It's a hard city if you don't know people because everyone is friends with people that they grew up with and I was friends with all these Europeans who were really transient, like a lot of Swedish au pairs.

6:46Some of them who I'm still friends with. Yeah, but it's funny. But I moved to New York. like I started saving a year into living in London and moved to New York and it just it's a place where everybody is is from somewhere else so you feel really at home and I still feel that way about it but I will say the last couple times I've gone back to London and I'm gonna go a few times this year I've really appreciated it and I worked for a British company for so long and they would have loved for me to move there. And I always say to my husband, like, should we move there now? Because once you have a kid and I don't know, there's something different.

7:27Yeah, it's a it's a really special place. But I understand. And it's lucky that you get to do both. We're going to talk a lot about Climax and and what you're building there. As I was saying before we got on the call, I got to visit the one in New York in the fall and and really loved it and thought it was great and bought a great book. So we can discuss more. But I wanted to run through some of the news of the week with you. Did you happen to catch any of the men's shows in Milan? And what did you think? I mean, I saw some of the stuff that came off on my TikTok and Instagram, most notably Dolce, which is just, I mean, totally unsurprising, but also, yeah.

8:13Only white people in the Dolce show. it's just yeah and it's like you know they're obviously doing it also on purpose they're totally aware of what they're doing but it's just it's just insane to me and it's also just makes me really sad and I think they also got almost so much coverage for it which I also have a bit of an issue with so yeah it was just strange yeah I will say that I don't know if they always do a menswear show but I stopped last season and I don't know maybe I will request again but last season I just didn't even request going to the women's because I was like I'm not like a traditional critic anyway but I do write critically about a lot of the shows that I attend and I I think I think about them and I try to say something meaningful and the last one I went to I was just like I can't write about this like there's nothing to say about I can write about their business and the future of their business not during fashion week but it's not like a Prada a show where I have a million things to say when I leave that show, even though I'm not a traditional critic.

9:20But yeah, I thought it was someone DM'd me something about it. And I didn't even it didn't even track to me that it that they were trying to alert me to some sort of scandal. And then obviously, I saw more and more Instagram posts about about the all white casting. And it's just like what are you doing yeah just and and to give that kind of stuff air is it's a challenge yeah we'll see what happens with that business now that those guys are really near retirement age one of them I think is just like totally uninvolved but um it kind of was an example of I was talking to a friend who was there who there just aren't that many shows in Milan in Milan now and yeah I mean the fact that London doesn't even exist anymore is like I totally missed that menswear even started because you know obviously before it would historically start with London menswear and then move on to Milan and that didn't happen and I was like oh yeah it's menswear yeah where does Craig Green show I guess does he show in pairs or he doesn't show I feel like he was also like less frequent on the schedule and doing more like kind of concept shows um I think he's so talented and so brilliant he's really good I mean I think he would make a lot of sense in Paris I'm curious if he's showing in Paris this season but this he just came up on my feed I think he had some sort of unique collaboration with I want to say Dover Street or something but yeah I think it's interesting what I wrote in Monday's email was that But I understand why a lot of these, like a Gucci or whatever, does a combined show.

11:10Fendi, same thing. But that being said, when you have a big budget, these runway shows are a really valuable marketing tool. And they need to, as you know, as someone who has ran magazines, you've worked at brands, you need to have marketing moments almost on a daily basis. And I think Prada, which that show looked so good. I loved it. I'm never jealous of missing. I'm very rarely jealous of missing a fashion show at this point. Like there will be another. But that one, I was jealous. And it makes you think like that show is going to be as meaningful as the last women's show. And if you can create little moments, and I think really hugely influential on other brands.

12:04And it's a good marketing opportunity. So it makes, even if a lot of these brands have tight budgets right now because sales are down, but I think it makes sense for Gucci to do a standalone men's show next season. And Milan is still and also given everything that's going on in Milan with the government crackdown on the factory conditions and all that stuff. And like there's a real focus. It's still such a big industry in Italy. And it's not like New York where the fashion industry doesn't. It exists, but it's not in the same way. Sure, there's stuff manufactured there, but it's not the engine of the economy.

12:48It's the consumption is the engine, but not the production. I just think it makes sense for them to, and also it'll ensure like a lot of these guys, buyers or whatever, go to Pitti and then they go home and then go back to Paris or whatever. they need to do more to to make it it's the one example to me of like no this actually should exist and you should make an effort usually when a fashion week starts to fade away I kind of just say this is the way the culture's moving it doesn't it makes sense I don't think New York needs to be a huge fashion week anymore it just doesn't I'm not trying to save it I don't think any of us should be.

13:36But in this case, I think it really matters. What did you like about Prada? I mean, I just feel like I'm a huge fan of both Rath and Mucha. Me too. I think for me, Prada also represents something that feels always like incredibly nuanced and surprising and intellectual in this way that it's like you're constantly kind of uncovering elements of it and then I just love seeing them both together and like Raph with his like Coke zero and it's just I don't know I think it's like and I think also when there's so much change happening there's this kind of like familiarity that I find really comforting in a strange way yes I find it's probably one of the more chaotic backstages but I find it so energizing and And I love hearing them speak more than any other designers.

14:34I want to know what they have to say. And there was some quote. And there's also such like a generous kind of, there's like such generosity, I think, in the way that they reflect on the collections and share that I also really respect. And I think a lot of designers don't want to do. And I think that there's something in that generosity that I just find really, yeah, really appealing. They are great communicators and many designers aren't. And it is a verbal communicators. Like I'm sure they're both very good writers. There was a quote that that was posted. I need to read the transcription of of the backstage interview.

15:14But Raf said, if you lick if you lick layers away, you reveal beauty, which like that. Who else would say that backstage? It's so inspiring. Imagine him saying it in this really fabulous way. Yeah, I love that. They both have such amazing energy and I love seeing them sort of interact. And it was inspiring to see. I need to find out who this person is, but there is an Instagram account called Retired Fashion Editor. and I believe it's a woman and she probably worked at like Vogue or I believe she's American. She posts, she's always looking and anything she posts, sometimes she posts things also that she doesn't love.

16:05Oh my God, Valentino just died. Wow. Wow. RIP Valentino Garavani. This is the second time something like this has happened actually on, while I was recording a podcast. Whilst you're recording. But this was the last time it happened. It wasn't as shocking. This is shocking. I mean, look, how old was he? He must have been very exciting for the fashion people listeners. 93 years old, born May 11th. Wow, I didn't realize. Same birthday as my son, and Justin Padgett. Love Justin. Love Justin. Wow. That's crazy. Yes. But I think we're really, I think it's, yeah, I mean, also with Armani's passing, it's just the end of an era of like a certain, yeah, historic Italian designer.

16:56And it's kind of crazy to witness, but also, yeah. And you just think about like the legacies and all of that. I think it's, and then also what's going to happen to the brands and how it all evolves. Yeah. Valentino Garabani, he was unique. I mean, I guess Yves Saint Laurent did a similar thing, but he was unique in that he retired relatively early. I mean, he retired in the late aughts, so that's almost 20 years ago. And he was still involved with the brand, but decided to kind of live his life. And they, until they landed on Maria Grazia and Piero Paolo, I think there was, was it Alessandra Fracchetti who was the designer for a bit?

17:46But it was a matter of sort of letting go, but also still keeping an eye. And so many of these designers, Armani, Ralph Lauren, Karl Lagerfeld, are working until the day they die, essentially. I mean, Ralph Lauren is still heavily involved in the business. And, you know, he's around the same age. I think he's a little younger than Valentino. But I'm not a, what's it called? I'm not an obituary writer. And I always find this stuff a bit challenging because it's difficult, especially if you haven't interviewed the designer about their legacy, to really be able to pinpoint something. But I think the thing to me that was so important was the sort of modern dressmaking and the modern way that he approached fashion and also ready to wear in Italy and the 70s and all of that stuff.

18:53And I think the way Alessandro Michele is interpreting Valentino now actually is very reflective of the design, like his importance to the people who wore it in the 70s and 80s, if that makes sense. Yeah, he feels so suited for that house. Yes. Yes. Crazy. Yeah, RIP. I'm sure we'll have more to say in the coming weeks, but you're right. It is an end of an era and it is an end of a sort of he was one of the last designers to be to build a brand, open a new brand and build it before the conglomerates existed and all of that. and now obviously they're part of one conglomerate they'll be part of another in a couple of years most likely I'm sure but yeah it's it is such wow anyway it's hard to move into Valentino is showing Couture next week I think on Wednesday I wonder if they'll do I don't know what they'll do.

20:08Some sort of tribute. Yes.

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21:28Listen to Becoming You wherever you get your podcasts. as you look ahead to men's is starting tomorrow dior jonathan anderson showing his second dior show um dior men's show i wonder if they're going to return to dior ohm it doesn't it seems like he's just not using dior men anymore but there's obviously louis vuitton and a lot of Hermes, Veronique's it's her last show on Saturday hopefully as long as my flight doesn't get messed up I'm going to make that which I'm excited about and then Couture next week obviously first Mattu, Chanel first Jonathan, Dior how are you feeling? I have on Monday I did a big piece reflecting on the class of 2025 and how they're doing so far which it's been a month since there's many of them their stuff isn't even in stores but the the online dissection and the minute by minute of every single little thing that happens to these brands is that's new and so it did feel I felt ready to write about it which is crazy it's it has been three weeks into January but um what how are you feeling I also think it's going to be really interesting to see how a designer like Jonathan or Mathieu uses couture because I also think of them as like inherently like modern designers and I think couture sits in this kind of like it sits so much in the past but so much in tradition that it's almost how do they use it kind of as a catalyst for the bigger brand at large and I think that's a really interesting kind of task in a way for them well I think back to Pierre Paolo at at Valentino where I got to see I think two of his couture shows and there was it there was a point in the couture where he started doing much a lot more day wear and it felt it didn't feel revolutionary but it felt like a shift in the attitude about what couture is and i thought it was the best stuff he's done in his entire career and I wonder there's such an emphasis on on there were jeans in Chanel there are jeans in Dior every brand is showing jeans on the runway whether they will go the other extreme and just almost think it will be where it's like it's almost so incredibly like unmodern in a modern expression if that makes any sense yes I hope so because I do feel like so much of what is happening right now is practical and other than the pricing of stuff but um the most unpractical pricing but it's almost conservative in a way where it's this kind of like this familiarity in the sense of like connecting the everyday to ready to wear that it's then like couture which is so not about the everyday or about like familiarity it's so much about like fantasy and and like something that's totally unattainable for so many people it's like how does that become part of a bigger kind of brand message it's really interesting yeah on the subject of modernity Perfect released this zine this week dedicated to Melanie Ward and I talked to Katie Grant a little bit about it she was not close with Melanie she said but obviously was really inspired by her and she sent me the pdf of it it's available at CASA magazines and anywhere else you get cool magazines today in Los Angeles there's like skylight books I don't know there's no there's nowhere it's really tragic but um you need to open a climax in in la but we almost signed a lease for a space actually like a week ago and i pulled out well we could talk offline about the la retail situation and why it's deeply challenging and maybe not the right time maybe not it's um also la is just hard no one goes shopping there it's not a it's not a place that people think I'm going to go shopping today and that's a challenge but um or you don't you can't like stop by anyway but I I found it really affecting there's an essay by Joanne Furness and she interviewed like David Sims and Kate Moss she also interviewed Nadege from Mermez and Kim Jones and Ronnie Cook Newhouse and people who have worked with Melanie in the last who worked with Melanie in like the last decade of her life and a lot of the work she was doing was consulting with designers and helping them shape their collections.

26:20And I find as a not creative person who loves the creativity of this industry and also just like absorbs so much, I find the thing that I find so challenging about modern fashion is the fact that we, there's no barrier to entry in terms of accessing old imagery. So it used to be you have to go to the library and look stuff up and then you go back and then you get an idea. I talked about this a bit with Paul Cavaco when he came on about Harper's Bazaar in the 90s and how they would reference a movie, but they saw the movie six months ago or five years ago or whatever. It wasn't like you could instantly access.

27:07And I think that instant access has created a sort of repetition in the imagery that we see. And I think the newer campaigns that have come out recently in the last few weeks for the fashion brands, it always reflects this, but it's kind of like, okay, you're using the same photographers, you're your same concept. Some of them look nice, some of them don't, but there's really a lack of newness and like, you never feel like you're seeing something new. And to me, Melanie Ward was all about looking ahead, never looking back. She wasn't nostalgic. What kind of relationship did you have to her when it pertains to your work and living in London and all that stuff?

27:51I mean, I didn't have a personal relationship with her. I never met her, but she obviously has a legacy that had such a huge impact on me. And I think especially in my years at Dazed, I worked also on like a 30th anniversary Rizzoli book for days, which I edited. And again, it's like seeing the work that she did and I think how she sort of like totally changed the kind of spirit of fashion um and also like youth culture because I think that's the other thing is like I think styling now has become so sort of like full look culture that like a lot of the editorials we're seeing like aren't really true editorials there's so many like credits that have to be put in and all of that you know I've experienced that firsthand yeah but it's a sense of like just freedom and experimentation and also like being young and figuring it out and I think it's interesting because it's like when you look at the legacy of photographers like you know Martin Parr recently passed away it's like you know there are these books that kind of survey the work of one photographer no matter how niche they are there's kind of like these you know big kind of bibles of them but it's like it never really happens with stylists or designers you know you look at the Helmut Lang archive show it's on at the moment this is interesting thing where it's like the impact Melanie Ward had on fashion, on designers, on photographers, on image making, on the culture at large is so influential, but it's almost like something that can go kind of quite unrecognized.

29:23And it's interesting that stylists, who I think, you know, are some of like the most inspiring people I've ever worked with in this industry, are kind of never quite given that space. It's true. It's, she was sort of in some ways the first of her kind, A hundred percent. I think sometimes there's also a tension between a stylist and a designer of who should get the credit. Credit, a hundred percent. And so there's this sense of keeping them behind the scenes and not. And when the reality is you probably need one. When a designer stops using a stylist, you can see it. Like sometimes they don't need one.

30:05there are there are some that don't need them or don't need them for time times but I think it helps that it helps work out what something should be like for instance Michael Ryder used a stylist for his first season at Celine and then the second season he didn't he styled it himself and I think if he had not worked with Brian Malloy that first season he may not have understood what he actually needed to do and now he does he used to style a lot of the Ralph Lauren stuff so it's obviously a part of his in Demna same thing like he worked with Lata didn't use a stylist I don't know what he's going to do now but um but then he didn't use a stylist for a while I think like it can be a very powerful tool and since she was sort of the center of it but yeah I think the the lesson for me I And I'm usually not deeply affected when people who I don't know die.

31:05I'm sort of like... But I think this felt really, this felt really like affecting in many ways because I think her work and also the spirit. And I feel like all I kept reading was also like how kind a person she was and what an amazing kind of like collaborator and muse she kind of was to all of these people that I think have also shaped the kind of like history of fashion. And also, I think, you know, for that 90s kind of fashion that I think we will still really look up to and kind of hold as like the thing that inspired us to get into fashion in the first place. It's like, you know, she's just such an icon and so legendary that I think, yeah, it's just a really sad kind of moment.

31:47Yeah, there's a great quote from Kate Moss. And I highly recommend you can buy this thing on Perfect's website if you can't access it. It's awesome. And it's economical in terms of size. It took me 20 minutes to read through it and look at the imagery. And I think that having a physical copy is worth it. she said Corinne Day and Melanie used to say to her like come on we're gonna change fashion today and the thing is like that's the attitude people need to have I don't think people have that attitude anymore everyone's so sort of broken down and kind of realistic and and you have to think you're gonna change the world even if it's just like a fashion shoot and that is really inspiring to me as someone who like you know as an outsider couldn't see how much how influential she was on the way I dress like in the way we all look in the yeah and and it's um it's fabulous and it is also you know Katie is the kind of person who is the fact that she wanted to do this is why she's special you know so there's also this sense of kind of like kind of naivety of also like there's a playfulness that I think exists less and less now in fashion and I think when you hear those stories of like that kind of iconic Kareem Day Rosemary Ferguson shoot for the face it's like it was like put I can't remember who's it was like in someone else's flat I can't if it was like Phil Pointer or something but it was like above the first first days to office like all of these stories where it's like there's just and maybe we romanticize it but there's a sense of kind of this DIY spirit and I hate normally using that term because I think it could be so cringe but it existed in a way that was so pure and so like joyful and free and I think you know as the cultures progressed that has kind of yeah morphed into something else but I think there's something very special about looking back at those images and then hearing the story of how those images are made.

33:56Like, I just have always loved that.

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35:14I remember Jefferson Hat calling me and I was editor-in-chief of days at the time and just being like we can't shoot a summer issue so we basically had two issues that were on pause and I had all this time and it's something that I'd been sitting on for maybe like five years before that and I was like if I don't do this now I'm never gonna do it and I think it started again in a very naive way of just really like my personal archive and kind of sourcing and curating for that one moment and building a kind of like online world around it with no expectations whatever that it would turn into anything physical or turn into the kind of like brand that it's become now so I think it started in this really yeah totally naive way which is kind of nice looking back on it that there wasn't any kind of pressure and it's sort of organically grown into what it has now and then I think opening the physical stores and we now have one in New York and also in London has just been such a kind of game changer from like a personal point of view of like building a real world around what we do that I think gives the curation that we have and the kind of like wearable product that we make like it's giving it a context and a kind of like home that people can like come in and be like really pulled into the climax world so I think that's been such an exciting thing and then every week it changes like John Waters came into the New York store last week.

36:40And it's like, that's so fun. And that was totally unplanned. And he came in because he'd heard about it. And it's like, those moments just make me like, so happy, like the happiest person in the world. I want to ask you some business questions. But before we get to the boring stuff, what do you think of like, sex in the culture right now? Because obviously, what you're doing is sort of reflective of that. It's funny, when I went to your store, my kid and husband came and we walked and he's like can fritz go it come in here and i was like yeah why i mean he's four and a half whatever like it's fine but also i did it didn't even occur to me that it would there would be an like that it was maybe inappropriate for him to to come in but there is something happening with and i don't know if it's connected to this like this regression to traditionalism that's happening in politics and this polarization and all of that and then also there is progression with like our ideas of what sexuality is and gender and all these things and that push-pull and then because the there's your business my friend started um a romance novel imprint where it's called 831 stories i'll send it to you it's interesting it's kind of like the a24 of romance so they they publish these novellas that are like beautifully designed with modern stories but it's still like a traditional romance and then you look at oh what's the hockey show that i finally did watch um heated rivalry so i loved i loved you loved it so i'm i need to watch the last two episodes he also walked um the last year you will be sobbing by the end of the last two episodes.