The Other Raf

30:04Okay, so you're at Calvin. did you go to architecture school from there or did you hop around before? Like when did you realize you didn't want to do clothing design? You wanted to do something more with interiors and architecture? I didn't. Interiors and architecture was like never a consideration. I probably really condensed, really distilled. I read this article about the Bilbao Guggenheim in the Times that Herbert Mouchamp wrote where he twins the building with Meryl Monroe. He says the building is the reincarnation of Meryl Monroe. And I was excited by that kind of, you know, he's the architecture critic of the times.

30:45He wrote about it in this very sociological way, cultural. Like, this building is voluptuous, and it could only have been made by an American. It was only an American that has no care for the rules would design a building like this. that probably piqued my interest i thought i you know i was a kind of like uh i thought i was like a smarty pants and i thought that if i went to like architecture school and studied like french post-structuralist theory i would be a really good fashion show designer and it was the era of like it was the era of like you know those hussein julyan shows uh you know alexander mcqueen i think in in new york it was like miguel adrovar was like an an imitation of christ they were doing like you know cool cool things that honestly I mean I actually always say this like I'm like in the 90s like New York was the cool fashion week yeah that's interesting was that before was that when helmet came or even before helmet came uh helmet came so helmet came around around that time because I remember, I'm pretty sure, I remember when Calvin split the fashion calendar.

32:02Calvin said, I don't want to show at the end of Paris because all the dollars are used up, the budgets are used up. So I'm showing before all the shows and that's how New York Fashion Week moved to February because it used to be at like the end of March or something. And so he did it or helmeted it. I don't remember which one. One of them did it first and then the other one followed suit. And then there were probably like three New York fashion weeks where there were two. There was like Calvert, Helmet, and like one other person. And then like all the shows, like, you know, London. My God, I didn't know that.

32:40That's so funny. Yeah. It's a crazy, you know, but do you know, do you know Bonnie Morrison? Of course. Yeah. she remembers this timeline of everything like everything she could tell you like what when Tom Ford was like appointed at at Gucci and like um she's a encyclopedia she is she's been a guest on fashion people multiple times oh awesome yes I'm a big fan of me too I went to college with her oh wow not to age her she is younger than me I'm aware I know her I was with her on her birth or like the day after her birthday this year. So I'm very acutely aware of her age. Happy late birthday to Bonnie.

33:23So you are inspired by this. It's amazing you were inspired by an article, first of all, because I don't think that happens anymore. I don't know that's true, but I think there's just a lot of information. I mean, I get inspired by things I read. Yeah. What do you read? I read mostly science fiction. like uh i read a lot of science fiction i i think it like takes my i don't know like i like i like it i actually watch a lot of science fiction too um i don't tend to watch reality tv so much because i i just like the fantasy aspect i also feel like reality tv is like a live version of the internet like people hating on each other and kind of and i'm trying not i'm trying to just I'm trying to create a culture of love around myself and around everything.

34:15But I read it. I read like everything. I actually read. I can't believe how much I read given how much I work, but I, I do read and I can't say that I think of that. It's not, it's not so conscious, but my team was always like, how did, like, how do you have, when do you have time to read? I'm like, I read for like two hours in the morning before I get to work. And I read for like another, you know, hour and a half, two hours at home. And is it mostly in print or are you reading a lot online as well? I think I read online mostly at this point. I support, like I still have like New Yorker, Vanity Fair.

34:56I get all that because I want to support. I don't want that. I don't want things to go. I want those things to go away. but if I'm being honest it's mostly but I'll like you know every once in a while on a Sunday by the times like sit outside and be like a little bit of you know 90s cosplay the newspaper outside yeah I I want to get back to we sort of got off track but now I have 15 things I want to ask you about oh ask me unfortunately we don't have to go into I am also not a reality television watcher but we don't need to go into that. But I am curious, something I've been thinking about a lot because I'm in Paris right now and I've been buying a lot more magazines because we're walking around and I'm like, I should get the new system.

35:44I should get middle plane. I should get these things that all these people who are around me now are contributing to and a part of. Whereas in LA, I'm buying home girls and interview and W and that's because those are the people I know, that type of thing. And I have been buying the FT Weekend because I enjoy the not being on my phone. The one thing I've really thought about a lot being here and walking around so much is the only thing left that I feel like really stimulates my brain in a way that doesn't aggravate it is going to see art shows because it's quick and it's visually stimulating. Sometimes it can be disturbing, but usually the shows I'm going to aren't.

36:36And it triggers something in my brain that nothing else does anymore. Sometimes reading, but reading honestly is hard for me to read a whole book at this point. And I'm just curious because I'm not a tradition. I'm not a creative person in that way. I'm just reporting facts and, you know, I'm not a visual, super visual, especially in my work. But as someone who you're creating new environments, you're thinking visually all the time. Like, does the imagery online and everything you're consuming, does it make it easier for you to create new things or does it make it more challenging or how do you organize your, your brain as a creative person when you're doing your work?

37:28Um, I mean, I'm inspired by almost anything like a film, you know, whatever, but a song, a song might, you know, inspire a memory or like remind me of something. I think that I, um, I look back to eighties things a lot. I am aware of the fact that I'm like, okay, am I just romanticizing the era in which I became aware of like visual culture or, or, uh, you know, avant-garde culture for lack of a better, of a better term. Sure. There is some of that, right? Like, you know, when I was in the, I was in the eighties, like I was like, Oh, like this is, you know, like New York is awesome. And like, my parents were like, I was more awesome in the seventies or, you know, um, so there is some of that, but I, I do think that this idea that in the 80s that post-modernism was still kind of new and it was just elevated right it was like it was like you know Andre Putman is probably like the most and and like I think like Philippe's like the Royalton and the Morgan's Hotel like that is fashion like that was that was the that was like that's where you wanted you you wanted to dress a certain way to be seen there so I think that I do get inspired by things that happened in the 80s still, even though however tenuous those are now and how little they might mean.

38:54Now I am inspired, but I'm inspired by lots of things. I find that if I look at too many things, like if I'm too aware of like competitors, I start comparing myself to people like, you know, like I think a lot of people do. But it's a weakness right and and i i work on it and when you compare yourself to others you never end up in a good place so i agree i um i try to i to to be honest the vast majority of my inspiration comes from i have a huge library of like old magazines like from the 70s 80s and i like flag them i look through them old books and i'm like this is not online you cannot find this right i mean there's that place library 180 yeah i love i love that place it's amazing it's amazing great and there What I'm finding is there's one of them in every city.

39:45Milan has one. I'm sure Paris has one, but London has one too. It's really nice, but it's the kind of thing you have to seek out. And my experience there was incredible. It felt so good to be there and not be on my phone for two hours and just look around. It's an interesting, it's challenging, I think, for creative people in this era because there's a real value to being online and consuming information generally. But then there's this other part of it that like so much of the imagery and aesthetics that are being created now are so referential to like have the balance of to be able to process what you're seeing online and then also create your own new thing is I think really challenge is going to be really challenging for like gen z early millennials especially because they didn't have a life where they they weren't constantly on snapchat or whatever but it's it's really fascinating well it also seems like i mean uh like kathy horan and um she knows she does those like like uh oral kind of reviews on instagram for new york magazine and she said like like she talked about the gucci show and she's like it was something like if you didn't like the gucci show it wasn't for you like it was something like that it was like it was like in fashion for our generation is an intellectual pursuit for gen z and alpha it is not it's like everything is like consumed at a much more rapid look i'm gonna i there's there's tons of demons in there, but I think there's also, it's our job to be optimistic and look forward to the new things that that's going to bring.

41:38Totally. It's, you can't go back. I have to say, like, I have a, I have, like, you know, my, I have a lot of young people, a lot of Gen Zs in my, in my life. I remember when I was, when I worked at Calvin, I was like saving money to buy like a Prada coat or Prada shoes. They don't do that. I don't know what the plan is for luxury houses. I say this honestly because they want vintage for a million, for originality, for, you know, it's like a, it's an issue. A hundred percent. The rise of the online secondhand market is I'd say the number one. First of all, the peak of fashion as pop culture in 2018 or 2017, combined with the rise of the secondhand market, which has completely, I think none of them expected it.

42:35A couple of the big houses have been very strict about secondhand generally and trying to control, even though they didn't want to create their own market. In the end, it's - They had to. Yeah. It's unavoidable. And I don't think they know what to do. Because why would you buy X bag when you can get the original one that's probably like feels like better quality, even though if it's not. For a quarter of the price, it's just not it's a it's a big crisis and you're totally right. I think from my perspective as a business journalist, I think it's about managing it and realizing that the kind of growth that they experienced was unprecedented and it will never happen again or it won't happen again for a long time.

43:26It does feel that way. Yeah. It's just a matter of like whether or not executives want to hear that when they have a lot of pressure to make money. Yeah. Exactly.

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45:11so winding back to school going back to school and all that how did you how did you train like when did you realize you you you read this article you're like i want to do sets and things like that how did you end up doing what you do now um i so i went to architecture school i i ended up i I followed one particular architect named Greg Lynn, who was probably, he's blobby. He's amazing. He's one of the most, I couldn't have been luckier to shadow him. I don't know if he thinks of me as having shadowed him, but in my mind, I was shadowing him. But I never left a foot. Like, my interest was always fashion.

45:55Like, I was always, like, looking at it from, like, I feel like every project that I, every project at architecture school where I could choose what we were doing. It was like a department store or like an event or something. So I graduated from architecture school. I worked for him for a little bit and I was on the academic side of things. And then we worked on the World Trade Center competition. We were one of the finalists. His firm was one of the finalists and I worked for him. And I worked packaging. I worked helping create the assets for the presentation with Imaginary Forces, which is a big post-production house that did Minority Report and did a lot of experience design projects.

46:33And they offered me a job to work in experience design, designing car shows and things like that. And it was an exciting thing and it had proximity to fashion. It was like kind of temporal content delivery and it was exciting. And then in the process of doing that, little by little, I started doing some projects for friends that sucked. They were awful. I mean, it was like charity. Like, I can't even believe these people paid me to do what I did. But, you know, little by little, things worked out. Like, you know, I had Parker Posey as, like, my first residential client. Crazy. Or, like, first, like, residential where I did her whole place.

47:15And that was through a friend that I met. And she didn't publish her apartment. But, you know, people knew about it. I designed a couple stores on the Lower East Side. I don't know. I did Jessica Stam's apartment in like I guess it was like 2008 I started in 2006, 2008 and she was kind of like the super big model at the time and that was also through you know like Jen and Chrissy and Amanda Silverman you know like I went to I've known Amanda Silverman since high school. Oh tell me everything I can't tell you everything Well, tell me something. One of my favorites. I would love to have her on Fashion People.

47:58She's awesome. She is the most, this is a crazy thing to say, but she is like the most genuine person I have ever known. Like she is the same person than like when we were like 15. The same. I believe it. Yeah. She really is like, her friends are the same. she's been loyal to her same friend group where I wasn't always I came back around to a lot of my friend my you know middle and high school friends just because I was like god these people I've known these people for 40 years like yeah it's so crazy to think that you know people from high school I know a lot a lot of because you grew up in New York like I don't I talked to two people from high school and that's it.

48:47I don't, I w I don't even remember anyone's names. Well, they all live in LA now. All of my, all of my high school friends from New York. Yeah. Or a lot of them. That's very funny. Yeah. And so you started doing store design and interiors or homes, things like that, architecture. when did you feel like okay now I have a real practice and I have a thing that I'm good at that people come to me for well it oscillates between like thinking like okay I've been in business for you know this year's 20 years um to like I'm a fraud I'm an imposter and like I don't know what I'm doing. Look, I think that, I think this is the, this is the, the battle, right.

49:35Of, of, of, of becoming middle age, you know, I'm, I'm past middle age, arguably, but coming to terms that like, there's always this idea that you think that like, oh, this project is going to be the one that changes everything. But by the time you get that project, you've moved the goalpost. and that is an awful way to live and I do it. I do it. I'm a victim of it like everyone else and I work on daily like to not. So I am both, I am humble and immodest and I'm quoting Maya Angelou. She says humility is important to acknowledge, or she said once, humility is important to acknowledge the people that came before you to allow you to do what you're doing, but modesty was invented to silence you.

50:26Do not be modest, right? Like understand your value. And I think like, yes, when I look at like, we've done 200 projects in 20 years. Yeah, I like, I know what I'm talking about. Like I'm still learning because things are always changing, especially now the world of retail design is changing, you know, a huge amount. So there's really kind of a resurgence in retail. It feels like to me, just based on we've gotten a lot in the last few years, there's been a considerable amount of retail design outreach. Yeah. So when you look at your practice, what is the mix? Is it majority retail or are those the bigger projects?

51:16No, it's 50-50. yeah it's like like residential is more profitable if i'm being honest um because you you um you typically spend longer time there's also just a much more um what do you call it like much more like uh you know like very bespoke service right like people hire us for rarity They want something that no one else has. They want furniture that no one else has. They want everything, you know? Yeah. And in retail, it's such a mixed bag. So for residential, it's actually a pretty, you know, it's like wealthy, wealthy clients. And I think like aspirational art collectors, mine tend to be pretty private people, which is fine.

52:04But it keeps our, we don't promote that many of our residential projects because we're sort of unable to. But retail design moves in a really fast way. And I guess it is interesting because I'm connected to fashion via both, obviously, but much more so in retail design because I actually kind of only work with fashion, beauty and jewelry brands, right? But I guess I feel lucky. It's incredibly unusual to have a firm, an agency that does this blend. I mean, we also do hospitality, we do restaurants. To do this amount of work, to be excited by so many different things is really unusual. I feel really honestly blessed that I've been able to maintain all these different, you know, kind of whatever you call that balls in the air.

53:05But but even within retail design, it's such a. I guess the thing, even I work with mass brands and Nike was our first our first corporate client in like 2008, 2000. That was our first corporate client. But I guess it's always been brands that regardless of what their price point was, they behaved like luxury. they behaved like an essential item that was going to like make your life so much more simple and um yeah i feel very lucky to have have worked with with so many companies uh like that and then and that they've hired me you know it's it's uh honorable do you think that more and more companies are thinking more retail retailers or brands are thinking that way that are not luxury because of the fact that it's such a crowded market and you have to pitch your value no matter what the price point is harder than you used to?

54:05I think they want to. And, you know, we work with some brands that are very old and established and then we work with some brands that are new. And I think the newer brands tend to understand, even if they will eventually get to be like the bigger brands that has like a board that is saying no you have to have 10 000 skews on the floor but ultimately 10 000 skews on the floor is the problem right like you're you you have to create hierarchy and desirability and you do that by editing not providing every single thing going back to uniqlo uniqlo actually is the um they're the outlier in this they there is a lot of organization and hierarchy, but like that, like in the Soho store, that wall of sweaters and every color, like that feels aspirational to me.

54:56And I can't think of any other brand that does that, that does that effectively. It is so aspirational and also satisfying mentally because it makes you really calm to think that it's all there. Yeah. And it's exciting. It's available. Yes. Like I was desperate for after the Celine show, like a purple turtleneck. And I couldn't get anywhere. And someone was like, the only place you can go for that is Uniqlo. And you probably get it in like three shades of purple. Yes. Yeah. I never did get it. How has retail design in the last, I don't know, 10 years changed? Like what you, when you're setting up, we're talking about all these, how much product I have on the floor.

55:48I expect because these, to me, retail has become much more about, it's not necessarily the use case for going to a store has changed. Has that changed the way you design a store? shopping for better or worse has always been an act of pleasure resistance entertainment culture you know i i even when i was you know i still go shopping for things that i can't afford right like i go to you know i design for places that i can't afford anything but i learn from it I'm still pleased, right? I walk around. And in Paris, it is more pleasant. I think like the shopping districts are kind of more beautiful.

56:41And I think people are kind of like rolling out the big guns, I guess, like the most exciting things. so I've always thought of shopping as a destination base that is part of the cultural establishment it's like no different than going to see a play or dance right like you are seeing active culture moving in front of you every season and probably more more quickly nowadays so I can't say that I that I design differently I think that now there was a time when when you know people were like oh retail like brick and mortar is dead and I think we now know that for at least for now that's not true right like it is it is it's much less fun to buy something online and have it delivered to your house and ignore it because that's what happens but when you go to a store like I mean Barney's right go to Barney's been like fucking working go to Barney's buy something on credit card that you couldn't afford, you wore it that night.

57:44Like you were, you like, you wanted to wear, you want to like bust it out and wear it. That's awesome. That's like, that's like, that's like one of, that's eating, one of life's pleasures, right? As, as materialistic as that may sound, we live for these things, these, these, these things, these activities, they make us feel better and stuff. So I don't know that things have changed. I think budgets are smaller. And if I'm being honest, budgets, people are much more cautious. And I think that if there's a kind of technical thing that I've noticed is that in Asia and the Middle East, where shopping is very mall based, and I think that there is, or shopping center based, or, you know, kind of come like, you know, a developer controls all that.

58:24there is a kind of uniformity in the level of finishing and the level of design that has that's potentially good for us because certain brands are not they have like in america you can get in you know you can get into a mall anywhere but you can also get rent any space and design it how you want to but but i think in in those in those asian middle eastern malls they're like no your place has to be nice. Like, so you're going to get a five-year lease if you give us like something nice. And so I think brands that probably didn't consider it as much now have to consider it a little harder in some of those markets that they want to participate in, which are, you know, also exciting markets because people buy differently.

59:12I don't want to keep you for too much longer, but I would love to talk about a couple of your projects and how you approach them. Has Piaget opened yet? It has. Oh, great. So that's on Place Vendôme. That's a jeweler. That's a big deal. That's the center of the jewelry world. Was that your first store that you had done on Place Vendôme? Yeah. I mean, you're probably one of a handful of architects or whatever you want to call yourself who have put their fingerprint on that. Well, I don't know if I'm right, but I think I'm the second American to design a Plus One Dome store. I mean, Peter Marino designed half of them.

59:57Yes. And I'm a fan. I think he changed luxury. He changed everything about it. For better or worse, argued at a different time, but he sort of helped skyrocket this whole world. It's a huge deal for me. And how did you approach it? Why do you think they picked you? Like what or wanted you? What what's the sort of concept of the project? I don't know. So it was a pitch like we we have an agent in Paris and in Europe and it came through our agent and our agent, you know, we we pitched against we were the only Americans pitching. so you know but budget was an issue but we i don't know i know that um i'm probably like airing too much dirty lump but who cares like i i i did have like there was a the head of store design said he he was a participant he was colombian and he really wanted he he thought that like he thought that me being american was going to bring something that that maybe Piaget might not otherwise get.

1:01:09And that doesn't mean that's not a dig because French people do things like, ultimately all the rules of French culture provide this like, you know, extreme perfection and kind of elegance and elevation and refinement. But Americans don't follow the rules. Americans like, you know, for better or worse, you get, you know, lots of good and bad things for not following the rules. I had to convince him a little bit. He said, you have to talk to Benjamin, the CEO. I think he wants to talk to you. And I spoke to him and he was, I guess he was, yeah, they hired me. I'm very honored to do it. And I actually, as much as I do move the goalposts, as I said, I'm like, you know, a middle class, sometimes lower middle class, New York kid, no family money, no connections into this world.

1:02:04I feel lucky to have done that. I feel very privileged. When I walk into the store, not today because I'm on deadline, but someday soon, what should I look for? Is there like a little thing in there that you're most proud of that you want people to notice? The thing that I like the most is actually this VIP room in the back. You go upstairs and all the way to the back. it has a lot of the patrimony jewelry so it has like you know Andy Warhol's like gold lingot bar what it's not for sale but it's like and and they have like you know Mirella Agnelli's clock necklace you know so I think and and the the room was we we did this custom mural with uh Caroline Perrin, this muralist in Paris who's a true artist and she deserves as much attention as I do in crafting it because the craftsmanship is, literally that's the thing, right?

1:03:07Like the craftsmanship is just, it's really superb. I really love the way that came out in terms of thinking of how a Piaget jewel, which are very embellished, how that could envelop you in a three in a three-dimensional environment i think that room does it very successfully well i can't wait to see it final question for you because i cover skims very very closely on puck um especially jen's greed to much to his chagrin but um i'm just curious like that to me when we're talking about modern brands and important um important brands of the last 10 years. I sometimes I said to Jens, I'm like, I write about you and Bernard Arnault and that's it.

1:03:54No one in between. But I'm just curious, like, I don't have you done all their stores or? No, we've we've done some of the flagships. When you look at the sort of landscape of retail culture, shopping culture or consumer culture, what was that experience like for you and how did you communicate this like significance of that brand did you do the one in LA on sunset we did the one in uh New York LA and Chicago and we're working on another flagship now because I think that the way they're merchandised is very unique in a positive way. It feels like everything is there, but nothing is there in this way.

1:04:43And I'm just curious what your experience with that brand in particular has been. So the brand, I started working with them, I think like three or four years ago. And I too follow Jens because we had a meeting, Jens and I had a meeting like 10 years ago or 12 years ago. and then like like no no contact in that time and then this and I have um Kimberly Shraub is I went to college with Kim so like there wasn't it wasn't like I was completely unknown I think that like there was a conversation and I think Jens was interested and I think Kim had a had a participated in that I think when I started working with them it was like you know I don't know it seemed like it was like 10 people and Kim, you know?

1:05:30Yeah. And those people were so awesome and they were really aspirational. Yens really is really aspirational, but also, I mean, I think Yens is actually like a Calvin Klein figure in my mind, even though he's not necessarily creative. This is a business. It's got to make money. Like the flagships need to make money. They're not like, they're profitable, right? Right. Skims is a now they're, you know, I don't know, hundreds of people. They're pros. They're absolute pros. I think it's it's not hard to create desirability in a brand that has that has that has been so instrumental in creating desirability at this price point.

1:06:13And it goes well beyond, I think, Kim's identity, which is obviously a huge force. And she's awesome. And I and also dictates a lot of this. I mean, she's incredibly involved in store design. She's part of it. Like every, I mean, there were conversations about two shades of, you know, gray, like for hours. So I think that they're pros. They do want the best. And they're commercial. I think we're, I feel very fortunate to have worked with them and continue to. And I think that they're an exciting brand. Hope other brands follow suit. I think that you're kind of, I don't think anyone should design as many stores as Peter Marino, but you are kind of maybe your generation's version of that, like creating the retail sort of approach within design.

1:07:08and there's something about like, I know your name and not just because I worked with Brian Phillips forever. That's like the first person I associate you with. That's funny. Someone asked me in Paris last week, they were like, because you dated Brian Phillips. Did you date him? No, we didn't. But I was like, no, but we have been on Instagram together for like a decade. So yeah. That's really funny. I said to him, he messaged me the other day. I said, I think about you all. He just comes up in my world so often. It's really funny. I owe him a lot. I feel very grateful to have worked with him for so long.

1:07:46I really want to, if he gets this project that he wants to do off the ground, which I'm sure he will, cannot wait to have him on to talk about it because I'm obsessed with it. But we will not reveal it here. But I guess my final question for you is, what are you excited about in fashion right now? Like a brand or a person or an idea? Like what is still inspiring to you in that world? Well, I guess it is in a world where you've arguably seen everything and maybe originality doesn't exist anymore. And maybe that's the search for originality is the wrong is the wrong path. I sort of thought and I still look at shows.

1:08:29I still, you know, I'm excited by them. I thought that Hyder Ackerman for Tom Ford, like I was like, this is as close to perfect as something can be by and still sticking. There's no funny business, right? Like the plastic things, maybe a little, but like it was clothes. Those were clothes. Those were like just fucking good clothes. Like you want like you want like that white double breasted coat or like it makes me it makes me want to work out. Right. And like and I think that I love that that idea of subtlety. Right. That you can create a little revolution while making micro steps. You know, I was pretty excited about that.

1:09:20I love that. I also was very inspired by it. And now I wish I had made it number one on my top 10 shows instead of two or three. What did you make number one? I think probably Chanel. I don't remember, honestly. It's an exciting moment for Chanel. I think it's just I try to look at it from a really holistic perspective when I'm doing it. But you're right. From a flat out like that was a great show, it was Tom Ford. Like it was really amazing. And it was also just so nice to see the sort of culmination of his talent and the brand, like the right time for the brand, the right person for the brand.

1:10:01And also the kind of like way he made the audience push the audience because it was so bright in the room. and so and it was 7 p.m. and everybody was kind of like well and it made every I could tell it made people uncomfortable because it was like not only were they forced to really look at the models who were sort of making eye contact occasionally and like really engaged but also look at themselves and I thought it was it was um just excellent a really great experience it's good to hear you say that. One thing though, it's interesting. Like I do feel like sometimes Paris Fashion Week or all fashion weeks, but Paris is the, you know, Super Bowl of fashion weeks.

1:10:46It feels a little bit tone deaf. Like it's the capital and hunger games. Like you're like the war in Iran just started. Like, you know, what is this craziness? And I thought that, and you can argue that a lot of fashion houses ignore that these things are happening. We live in this bubble where everything's great. I think that Hyder's show for Tom Ford addressed the issue. We have a war going on and the world is, there's a lot of dark forces in the world and they're not, they're happening in this room too. Yeah. Like they're part of this. That is deep. Well, fashion's deep. It is. Raph, this was incredible.

1:11:25Thank you for taking the time and being available to us. And I, I, it was just such a pleasure. It was a lot of fun. Thank you for having me. Fashion People is a presentation of Odyssey in partnership with Puck. The show is produced and edited by Molly Nugent. Special thanks to Puck co-founder John Kelly, executive editor Ben Landy, producer Maya Tribbett, and director of editorial operations Gabi Grossman. An additional thanks to the team at Odyssey, Kelly Turner and Bob Tabador.