Time Well Spent

34:21I was like, OK, well, I'll apply there. Not really knowing anything or, you know, just kind of doing that. And so then I had this interview with Louise Wilson, who was, you know, still alive back then. She was the head of the course. person of the MA and she basically hired me or hired me what how do you say accepted me on the spot and then it was kind of like oh shit okay so I have to go to London but I kind of knew like I needed more I needed to do more because I wanted to start my own label but I wanted to really do more so then I went into that and then that course at the time it's still a little bit like that but at the time it was really about you know getting the best people from other schools and then breaking them down and then starting them again so i again had no idea so i was like la di da i'm just gonna go in and i looked around and i was like oh god everyone is so good like i barely understand how to sew a seam you know like i like shit and then it was really really rough so in that course i really realized like okay i i don't think i'm ready for my own brand i think Like it's, you know, we're talking about 2008.

35:25Great, a great time as we all know. And well, also in a really crazy time to be in London. Yes. During in the fashion world and Christopher Kane. Yes. Jonathan Saunders and Richard Nickel and all these people kind of coming up. And it was like, and also thinking about like 2008 and all of your peers who were either there at Antwerp at the time and how what everyone has done but that was like a re and also like a crazy time obviously economically too yeah but it must have been wild to be there yeah and there's something about that like i i sometimes do like um teaching and and stuff at schools and like when people students ask me about this time that we're in now and oh my god like how can i be a fashion designer and there's something about that 2008 period as well where i feel like graduating in 2008 initially like this was i graduated in like before the summer so it was before kind of like you know the financial crisis really hit but it was all in the air already but i felt like being a grad student like being you know being so kind of like a worthless actually really gave me a leg up because i was the cheapest hire i was the absolute bottom of the barrel cheapest hire so i got the jobs because they were like really scrambling of like you know trying to get so there's something about that I say to students, like, you know, like there is also, you know, there is a version of these stories that could also really work in your benefit.

36:57Uh, and that is what happened. Like I graduated from Central Sid Martins, did my MA in menswear originally. And, you know, like I, I got jobs and I got offers and it was very easy and it's not because I'm amazing. It's not because I'm an amazing designer. It was also just because I came from a good school, but also I was just like hire me i'll do whatever like you know like i i have no i have no mortgage i have no nothing like you know i if i just have lunch and i have peanut butter for for dinner like it's fine and there's something about that that mentality that goes really well hand in hand with the kind of crisis mode that everyone was in in 2008 and 9 totally i think there's something about it's also an attitude of there have been in the last couple of days it's been all the luxury earnings.

37:45And it's all been really bad. But like, yes, it's been bad because A, the consumer's behavior has changed. It's not going to be like it was. And B, there is a big war. And like all these headlines like, oh my God, they're all screwed. And it's like, yeah, of course there is a war. Like, of course the numbers aren't going to be great. Like, I'm not saying you don't, you have to report on it but it's just um it's this panicky thing where yeah in reality like there is a huge amount of opportunity for innovation and and also just like recalibration of how we do things and it's just a matter of like being game and being up for it i'd also think knowing sorry no no keep talking i was also thinking like while you were saying that knowing kind of what some of these factors are is actually way better than not knowing at all.

38:44Like if you're just in this blind spot where you're just like, I don't understand why this is not working. You know, like there's really clear indications of this is happening ABC and this is happening and, you know. Totally. It's once you've been through it once, you are more prepared. Really quickly before we get into how you got to where you are. it's funny you mentioned Dutch because I've I've become newly obsessed with it because of that system magazine um interview with the editor and they uh ran some of the images from that 80 page spread of no clothes which I thought was so brilliant but um and I remember seeing some of your really early collections and just understanding I think you are like either the same age or like a year apart or something.

39:35I think we're the same. Yeah. 82? 83. Okay. Yes. Yeah. I thought, yeah, I was like, yeah, I think you're a little younger than me. But I think like your references are so clear to me of like a certain Versace collection or the color or whatever. And how much of like being a 90s kid do you think has informed your sort of like idea of what you think fashion should look like? Oh, that's a really good question. I mean, I think every generation has its period where like we are the most kind of like heightened as a sponge, you know. And I think for us, let's say, like people of our age, like I do think that it was in the 90s where we were sort of naive enough to not really fully see the real side of things, but then sort of developed and sophisticated enough to really dig deep in certain areas.

40:35and I think the 90s I mean it was a great you know it was a great time if you really look back at it and kind of what people were doing and like there is a you know there's sort of like an expression and I think it's different it's a little bit strange for me because I didn't really spend the beginning part sort of like aware of that and then in the 90s when I was living in Holland I got the Dutch version of the 90s in a way which is a little bit different I mean you know we also listened to the spice girls and i went to see titanic 14 times and all of that stuff but i literally did i actually did i saw it 14 times i was one of those wow um that's amazing yeah it was it was um it was sad like at the i think at number 10 like the the person in dimples the town the cinema i was like you're going in again i was like yeah so yeah so i am that i am that generation but yeah i think there's also something about it that i find really comforting but I also feel like it's something that I'm trying to also not just go into that comfort, you know, like I'm trying to also not just do the obvious references and kind of step away from it, or see things from that point of view of the 90s, but then modernize it.

41:42But yeah, I mean, for me, there's nothing more beautiful than, you know, a grungy person that's just like falling apart. Like, that's just, that for me is the most... At Seize Marjean once we had a show and I think the highlight of my life was that Courtney Love came and I actually had to go up to her hotel room before the show to dress her. And she just started telling me stories as if I knew any of the people she was talking about or stripping completely naked and I was standing in front of her and I was like, I don't think it gets any better than this. No. So yes, I guess I'm a 90s kid. she came up recently for someone that we were saying she should come to who was it you need to think about it that she should come to some show and i was like i think that that we can make it happen but that's yeah i mean it's yeah the best i'm curious to know from you when it's because you do have such a strong point of view it's so clear you you clearly know what you like you're your own person you might reference the 90s but like it's it's sander it's not any anybody else like you can see something why if i walked on the street and i see something that you designed i often can identify it that is so rare when you thank you that means a lot no i mean it's It's the truth.

43:13It's remarkable. Like, especially in this market where so much is kind of designed to... It's because stuff will be in the air and you just kind of, everybody kind of does this one shape of shoe. Like, I'll show you these shoes that I just got. Like, everybody's doing this shoe right now, which I love, which is like a retro pump. but everyone has their version and they're a different, but like it's all sort of the same. And you can be in the conversation, but it feels singular. And I think that's, it's so unique. Where did you work? Like what were some of your, I know you were at Drees, which when you first started Seize Marjan, everybody was like, this kid from Drees.

44:04But where did you work? And like, what did you learn working at the different European houses about how that all operates? So after Sip Martin's, I basically, I was in London, I was running out of money. And I moved myself to Paris to live on the couch of somebody that I knew. And just, you know, walking around with my portfolio under my arm and just literally going to, you know, the stores and leaving my portfolio in places like, you know, that's what we used to do. And I basically, I was with a friend and a friend of mine recognized Christophe Descartes, who was at Balmain at the time. I did not recognize him, but he was like, oh, he's like, I think he's going to be like the hottest thing.

44:49And I was like, great. So I just ran up to him. I really have no shame and I have no ego about things. So I just ran up to him and I was just like, hi, you know, I don't speak French. I just graduated. I would love to work for you. I love your work. I have no idea. and here's my my portfolio and he kind of like oh and then you know yeah kind of like sent me to the store and i had to drop it off there so then i went so that happened and then the next week i i um flew to new york for interviews that i arranged and then one of the interviews was with philip limb and um philip hired yeah philip hired me on the spot so this is we're talking 2008 philip hired me on the spot organized my visa he was just like yes come like this is great so then I was like okay great so go back and like grab my stuff and you know having lived all over the world like this kind of moving thing is not a thing like I just grabbed my four belongings and put it in a suitcase and I moved to New York so I go to New York and I work for Philip which is you know a very specific brand I didn't know much about Philip Lim it's a very American brand I was very pretentious European you know so but you know it was a job it was you know it was an opportunity i loved philip he was amazing everyone there when who is his partner incredible and i was there for really a couple of months and then balmer came calling where kiss of bacon i used to work and they were like oh the creative director sent a said your cv uh you uh you should come and then i was like oh shit oh i just started this job so i talked to philip and and i will i did i told philip this when i saw him a while ago i was like it's one of the things that i still i'm so grateful for for that conversation of me being like look philip you hired me on the spot you took me here but i think i have an opportunity that i kind of need to do back in europe and he was so supportive and he was like sander absolutely this sounds great no worries it's also taught me a lot about later in life when i had employees and people and to also kind of really you know be encouraging of people's careers and not just only see things from your own point of view and so i moved to paris worked for balmer so this was 2009 everyone was in crisis mode people were like you know completely slashing budgets and making things cheaper um unless i but us like at balmer at the time we just did the the first um disco uh shoulder collection i was working on the men's but you basically worked on the men's and the women's at the same time and it was just gangbusters like we were making real crocodile twiles that all the interns were allowed to just cut and paste and i mean we couldn't make it expensive enough it was just the craziest time we had these boards in one of our one of our offices we had these boards where we would where they the the press team would put uh the covers of all the the you know the collections and it was one board and then it was two boards and then at some point it was the whole room and it was every vogue every L every like Beyonce, Rian, like every single person on the cover of every magazine wearing the Mad Max, like, you know, like shoulder things.

47:56And it was crazy. And it was so intense. And it was so it was also weird because it wasn't really my kind of product, but I kind of understood how to mold myself to it. But it was also, you know, quite a toxic environment. It was very French. It was very, you know, you arrive at 11, 1130. And then, you know, we would smoke all day long, drink coffee all day long. And then, you know, we took like three hour lunches, but then we would be there till 2 a.m. every day. And, you know, it was like this kind of this kind of environment. But it was also really exciting. It was exciting to be in that environment.

48:30But then Christoph, yeah, we all know what happens. Like, I think that was a really complicated situation for him. So he was not well. So we could all see that. I think that was also a very good lesson. I can talk about it now because it's long enough ago as well. But I think it is a really good lesson for me that I could really see like, okay, if that kind of success, because it was the hottest brand of, you know, for a year or two. So it was also really interesting to then see what that does to someone, like what that kind of pressure does and what kind of person you need to be to deal with that kind of heightened success.

49:05That's not for everyone. Totally. And he was so, he is so talented. and there's always like you'll hear he's ghost designing some line for some department store. It just is interesting that he made such an impact and also that Olivier, you must have worked with Olivier too. Yeah, Olivier and I were working together basically Olivier was hired like a few months after me and he was really on the women's and I was doing the men's but then also doing the women's because the women's obviously needed a lot more hands all the time. And Olivia, I love Olivia. He's really sweet. And I was really happy when he got that job.

49:46But yeah, it was a really crazy time. So when I was there and I saw, you know, to God, this is a horrible 90s thing. But to reference Titanic again, I felt like I was on the Titanic. And, you know, the band was starting to play. And I was like, oh, maybe I should try and get on one of those boats. So I was, you know, kind of trying to see what else I would like to do. And then I really kept thinking about after two jobs where I did the jobs because they were there, they were exciting, but they weren't the kind of clothes that I was necessarily that into. I could mold myself into them, but, you know, it was not connecting.

50:20I was like, I should go somewhere where I really connect to the clothes. And there was only a handful of people that were like that. And Drisano was one of them. So, you know, like I've done everything else. I just, you know, send an email and I was like, I'm going to be in Antwerp tomorrow. and I would like go for an interview and somehow got in and then had the interview with Dries. And he was kind of like a little flabbergasted by my, you know, Balmain portfolio, which has nothing to do with him. But, you know, you could probably see that I was hungry and I would do whatever. And so it was like, sure, let's try.

50:53So then I got hired at Dries and I worked there for four and a half years. I was doing starting first at the men's, you know, starting with like the jerseys at the men's and then adding the belts to it and then adding the main collection to it and adding the women's to it and adding the shoes to it and sort of like really working with him there in enter which was a really incredible experience it's funny because i feel like obviously i learned a lot you know an immense amount but the really really important kind of like life-changing things i learned almost more at palmer which was so far away from me and was such a heightened experience where Dries was perfect like Monday to Friday you know nine to five basically like I you know I would go into the office because I was bored you know like I was like I because I really just wanted to work more like you know it was such a perfect environment I was I was young so I was kind of like you know ready to ready to rumble and I was stuck in this village but it was incredibly incredibly powerful if i look back at it of how how a company can be run and how you can also how you can build a collection like how you know drees is one of the very few brands that actually makes their money with selling clothes you know again i'm talking about my period there like now things have changed a little bit and there's perfume and there's an acquisition but back then it was 95 clothes you know and it was a really healthy thriving company what other brands are there like that you know like a rick owens and like i mean all the good ones really like it doesn't really exist no it's like the who was i talking to about this a couple of oh it was a designer who shall remain nameless but talking about like it used to be that like have a good 250 million dollar business yeah and you have a nice life yeah you're not owned by anybody yep and you you sell stuff and you price it to be sold yes so the one of the big revelations for me was that drees was not crazy expensive i remember being in a fashion show in paris and leandra medin had on a pair of chinos from from drees and she was like they were like 300 euro i'm sure they're not that anymore it's probably 10 years ago but then i went and like bought all these t-shirts in amazing colors and like his basics are were amazing or are amazing and um yeah there aren't as many of those businesses anymore because they all got so obsessed with this idea of being able to sell like high margin handbags well and i think also their business model was really based on this idea that you know they're in antwerp and they're not in the main capital like you know the employment is a little bit you know cheaper you know the rent is cheaper like all this stuff you know like they did they did two shows a year two for women's or four shows two for two for women's two for men's no big ad campaigns no big things no but you know like it's kind of like really reducing and i say reducing in a positive way not a negative way reducing it to the essence which is the clothes you know and the clothes really do the selling and the storytelling and you know there's no extra stuff around it and that was such an amazing thing to experience especially after coming from the opposite, where it was all about getting Beyonce in as many of these outfits as possible.

54:21That was the business model, basically. Yeah.

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56:39How did you like living in Antwerp? Was it too slow for you? I mean, I was in my like 20s, late 20s. And I'm just like, I'm a city kid. And I was just, you know, it was hard. It was very hard for me. I loved the job. I, you know, I still dream about it sometimes, about actually being back there. because the confines of like the job itself, like the being in that building, there's something so exciting about that. But then outside was really hard for me. Now it will be different. Now I'm older and now I probably would kind of like that life. But at the time I was like, I don't know what to do. So I would just go to Paris with the train or like, you know, I would just go everywhere.

57:23Yeah, I went there for a weekend once and I was like, I don't know how people live here. Oh, yeah. Which is funny because you think of all these designers who live there on the weekends. Yeah. And it's like, it must just be like you're in your garden, not to be cliche about trees, but like literally in your garden and just like enjoying your life at home. Yeah. Because there just isn't anything to do. No, I mean, I was like the new, like, I was like the young blood for like about six months. Yeah. The new person in town for about six months. That's awesome. And again, Antwerp is different now.

58:01And it's like, this is a long time ago. And I was in my 20s. It's a very different thing. I don't want any people coming after me. No, we love Antwerp. We love Antwerp. But it was hard to live there. It was hard to live there, yes. Yeah. So did you go straight from Dries to starting Seas? No. So actually what happened is that I, so after a couple of years at Dries, I could really feel that I kind of reached the ceiling of what the possibilities were within the company. And I've always been very ambitious. So I kind of always, I was always like, give me more, give me more, give me more, give me more.

58:35So I got more, I got more, I got more. But then at some point, I felt like I reached a little bit the limit of what Dries or the company would allow me. And, you know, fair enough, you know, it's his company. And I think, you know, things work in different ways. And I felt like I wanted to do something where I have more autonomy or a little bit more power. and I'm not power hungry because it's not about power. It's really more about being able to create, you know, and do things. So, you know, I had an honest conversation about it. And I was like, look, I think I need to make that next move, whatever that is.

59:09And then we talked about it. And then, you know, that was totally fine. And then I had a couple of months to kind of like, you know, stay and do job interviews, which again, taught me a lot about how you can be as a boss when there are people on your team that might want to move on. like you know it doesn't need to be this harsh thing or this cut off or like you could do it in a civilized way so anyway i then started putting the feelers out and i kept getting basically the same job but then for other people so it would be the right hand of xyz and then i i mean the story is strange in that sense that it's like i kind of it kind of sort of came on my lap i i was i was supposed to go to another house that hired me that was a very very good one that everyone wanted to go to and i was like okay i'll probably do that because it felt like everyone wanted to go there and you know so i was like okay i should probably do that and then i got this really strange kind of opportunity in new york which was what ended up being the cis morgeon opportunity which wasn't presented as that but we morphed it into that so i kind of felt like i have this one thing which is like the pinnacle of jobs at that time and still now or i can do this thing which i have no idea what this is and it's in new york and you know and then i kind of was really nauseous for a week and then i decided to do the thing that was the scariest one that i had the least amount of knowledge about because that's what i tend to do yeah that's so interesting so it's it was the this family the marx family owned this brand ralph rucci yes ralph rucci had left the business and they wanted a new designer and it by the time you all launched it and nancy marx who is she was like the ceo of the business big fan of nancy marx by the way yes we love her but she at some point you all decided to make it make a new brand instead yes yeah what was the sort of concept behind C's Marjolana and what was it like because you had Joey who was your CEO who had been in the business for a long time so he understood how fashion worked obviously Nancy had been around fashion a lot but um what was like and you had the atelier which was amazing yeah it was like a couture um atelier only couture couture in America basically yeah it's incredible so what did you sort of when you realized that you were going to be able to make a brand from scratch like how did you figure it out fake it till you make it I mean I I kind of just go and try and you know I mean it was not perfect like I you know it was the first time that after six months of you know trying to figure that out like I had to for the first time in my life go into therapy and like There's a lot of stuff that kind of comes with that kind of thing that I never expected.

1:02:08But I never even allowed myself to give up or to think about giving up or to think about that I really didn't know what I was doing. I kind of just kind of go. And what I loved about that is that what was there was very specific. And it was like the leftovers of something that didn't exist anymore. and it was you know pattern makers that are you know they they'd never done a normal machine uh like buttonhole like you know like everything was done by hands like so i i had a real ready to wear menswear ready to wear kind of background so i knew all of that stuff and they knew stuff that i'd never i'd never worked on couture like i you know like that was a completely different world for me so the clash of that became something really interesting and that's kind of what i focused on so instead of it being like oh my god this is overwhelming i was just like you know i have my skills they have their skills let's build something something from there and you know joey and nancy and i like we were really um you know we were just like hit the ground running and and somehow were able to attract the right people to you know to kind of pull it all together and yeah it was kind of like a little bit of like a an american dream i call it you know like this kind of thing of like okay i moved to america and then all of a sudden this thing is the possibility is there well it's also was like the last time where there was and we've talked about this where there was a show in new york that everyone was like you have to go to this show it's gonna be a really big deal like anna wintour telling everyone to go to this show that i don't think has happened there are some amazing designers in new york working of course right now but like i don't think it's happened since that and that was what 2018 uh the first show was 2016 so that was a 2016 yeah exactly yeah and i i just remember it was like you have to go it's gonna be such a big deal that's so fun and it was it was like oh my god and and it was also i remember because i remember maybe when the apartment by the line went out of business or something friends of mine getting your dresses but it was also a really interesting time in fashion where there was like it was like post net-a-porter but there was still tons of opportunity in multi-brand retail so there were all these new things coming up and and there was just like there was matches there was it wasn't post net-a-porter obviously but but post like the the launch of that and so there was just there was tons of opportunity and money and multi-brand retail still and it just felt really exciting that this brand that was completely new it it was solidified so fast and that must have been it must have been fun yeah it was really fun yeah it's really fun and really um it's it's I published a book with Rizzoli about Sismarjan two years after closing.

1:05:12And that was one of the only, the first periods that I really was able to look back at it. Because when you're in it, like you're in it and you just go from one collection to the next. And, you know, where you are in time is always very strange, you know, when you work in collections because you're promoting a thing that you did six months ago and you're making this thing that will be in store six months from now. And, you know, so you don't really know where you are. So then looking back at it when I was doing the book, like, yeah, I was really proud of the work that we all did and that it was this crazy kind of moment.

1:05:42And, you know, it wasn't perfect, like certain things worked, certain things didn't. But, you know, we really pushed something, you know, and I think it was from day one, from the very first look to the last one, like it was clear what C.S. Marjean was. And I think that was something that that was the thing that I always knew I was missing working for other people because i was i was at enhancing other people's vision you know or i was like making them better or adjusting them or but it was it was sort of somebody else's frame that i was working within and this was completely blank and i knew that i had the capability to create something that had that point of view i mean i i was hoping i was wishing that i did and i think in that in that environment like i was also very lucky to work with people that also really wanted that, you know, and really were very encouraging of that, because that's, of course, what you need as well.

1:06:34So yeah, now I look back at it as like a real exciting thing. And another lifetime ago, also, not just, you know, in years, but also just like what the industry was, like what you were saying, like, you know, it was a different time that the pre pandemic years felt very different in so many ways and and in fashion, just as much. ship so the business closed it during like the peak pandemic i remember talking to isabella and like it they did the marks decided to to close it when that happened i mean it was like real lockdown i was still living in this was the height height height of pandemic yeah so understandable things run their course etc etc it was a tough time what are you thinking right then are you like i don't want to ever do this own brand own brand like single brand thing again are you thinking i need to get to europe and get back into the system there like what what was your or were you like i need a year off or whatever i i hope you got some time off i don't know how much oh yeah i i took i took a lot of time i basically when that all happened i you know i basically was stuck in the U.S.

1:07:54with paperwork and all that stuff. So my partner, who's an actor, he got a job in L.A. for about a year. So I basically had to, if I were to go back to Europe, I could not come back into the U.S. So we decided to stay in the U.S. So I was, you know, stuck in that sense. So that option wasn't really there. But I also feel like after, after Cis Marjan, I, I kind of really felt like I've worked for amazing people I had a version of my own brand even though it wasn't my brand it had my parents names it had you know complete creatively like visually was my vision so I was like I what more do I want and I kept thinking about what I wanted to be when I was a kid so I kept thinking we're we're moving to LA the place that I was kind of you know thinking of like when I was a kid so I started working on a screenplay started working on a graphic novel I I started working on furniture fabrics.

1:08:49I started working on the Rizzoli book that I published about Cis Marjan. So I did all these other things because I really felt like every time anything was related to the industry or fashion for the first two, three years, two years, I wasn't interested. I really, and some of that was probably grief. Some of that was, you know, this extreme change. You know, my dad passed away when I was younger and my life, how it was with us traveling, was really related to my dad's work. So when my dad passed away, our lives really were turned upside down because all of a sudden we had to live in Holland where I didn't really know what Holland was.

1:09:31I only knew grandma lives there and the winters are cold. So there was a real change, like one of the biggest changes in my life. and the strangest thing is when Cis Marjan closed Cis is my father's first name and Marjan is my mom's first name so it almost had a little bit of a aftermath effect of what I did wasn't capable of digesting when I was younger when my dad passed away so it was all of this other stuff that came up with this you know this kind of really abrupt change that I also really felt like this I need to I need to take this moment to also really look at all of that you know like and kind of the grief of the company became the grief of my dad which came like you know the acceptance of becoming an adult which became like you know the childhood dream that I had to become a filmmaker like it all kind of connected into this much deeper thing and I felt like it would be a shame because of course people were calling and they were you know offering things and I was just like I think I'm missing my opportunity to really like dive into life in a way and dive into something else so yeah so then when you know I basically finished my screenplay and we had a director attached and I was kind of like really you know on that boat and on that road and I released my book with Gitzoli and all of a sudden like I got that feeling again in my stomach that feeling that I had when I when I started like understanding why these pocket shapes you know on shirts are so different and like I was going back to back to the basics in a way and I really felt like I needed to get through that whole process of disconnecting from it grieving you know really sort of like having a very almost like a like symbolic like you know kind of version of like all of this stuff to kind of go back into it and be like oh actually my love is still there i just needed to also get rid of my ego you know get rid of what i thought i need you know what what i was used to like i worked with the best people like i you know lota volkova did our first you know two shows like i worked with anthony turner like bruce weber shot our campaign like at drees i worked with you know like like all the grace i was just like i've i've you know i've had so much amazing access to things and I kind of felt like I needed to to break that all down to be like oh I actually don't think that's necessarily what it is I think it is that thing the pockets the garments that that is the love that I kind of forgot about almost yeah does that make sense I don't know maybe I'm rambling here for sure I mean it's like you we were messaging the other day and it's like you don't go you don't do this you can't do it this and really do it unless it's the love of yes the love of your life the garment yeah yeah there's no reason to there's no it's gonna be hard yeah like you could do literally anything else and it'll be easier and probably you'll be more successful so there is no reason to do this so when you decided to launch sanderlack which how has it been a year uh so we launched the brand in june of last year so yeah So the product has now been in the stores just for three months.

1:12:51The first three. Oh, wow. Okay. Yeah. When you decided to launch and build this, like, how did you think about it? You obviously, not obviously, but did you raise some money? Like, how did you think about, I'm going to do this again, knowing how hard it is to get into this business or to be able to survive in this business? how did you decide to approach it from a financing perspective but also from a like distribution perspective a design cadence perspective like what was your idea of what it could be so when i was really thinking about it when the first idea started it was really trying to figure out what i learned you know what i liked about how i did things before and what i didn't like so it's really sort of like analyzing and and what i was saying earlier like the ego is also connected to what you think you need and then really sort of trying to be like okay what is really the bare minimum not from a because i am expecting to only be able to raise the bare minimum but really from a kind of point of view of like what does it really take to make something great and if you just focus on that instead of having all the other stuff that we think we need so from there on out i really started putting a business plan together i started putting a business plan together that's sort of connected directly to also the brand's idea and the philosophy, which is basically, in a nutshell, kind of connected to my own upbringing where Sunderluck, the brand, like Sunderluck, the person, I'm giving it a life where, almost like a nomadic life, where each year, and a year can be an actual year, can be more or less, we're pretending that Sunderluck is based in a certain location.

1:14:37So year one is the Sunderluck as a Los Angeles-based brand. Year two, which is coming out in June, is a different country. I'm not going to tell you which one. And it was really about the idea of how I was raised, where it is so much about sort of like absorbing, you know, color, texture, mood. It's not about a representation. It's not reflecting the place like, you know, in the LA collections, which we've now had two of them. there's no I love LA or you know like Hollywood signs like it's nothing like that it's really more about when you wake up what's the color that hits your eyes like what's the the what's the texture you want on your skin like what are these kind of components and then with that you know we have this idea around it as well where every lookbook has to be shot locally with local talents and you know really sort of using the the local for some of these external uh marketing components as well and then the collaboration component will also like work directly within these so it's almost like a moving circus in that sense so with that obviously comes like a certain type of business model my first business model was not very good because the first one actually meant we would actually like actually the company would actually be in those places i really tried but that's really impossible like already just with like figuring out the text like you know things are just like okay no that's not gonna work so it needs to be metaphorical but again like i you know i've never really worked on a business plan like i've never raised money but it is one of those things where i really realized like when i left reese and you know went to new york to start i kind of knew deep down there are these things that i am really interested in and i'm not the best person but i feel like i can sort of fake it a little bit and get other people to surround me with so i really yeah put this idea together i knew that it had to be in america because you know america is still the place where people write checks very easily when they like an idea you know like i think it's i i i mean raising was hard for sure you know it was not an easy thing but it was easier here than it would have been if i did that in paris or in holland or and so there's something about that kind of idea of like if you have a great idea if you can talk well if you have stuff to back it up like you can open doors really quickly and people get really enthusiastic and they will they will you know introduce you to somebody else and that person is like oh oh actually you know what yeah i'd rather you know give you like a hundred thousand and then just uh you know like then do this or do that like it's and that kind of mentality is very american and i love that and it really gives me a lot of joy and and that's that's the part of america that i i am still in love with so so yeah so i started i i raised money and we had enough at some point to start and to you know like open a bank account and to get an office and like you know do all of that stuff and get a really small team together and then just start i never really thought about the clothes in that in that process because i knew what i i knew that that was not going to be the issue like i knew that once once i'm in the factory once i see like you know i that that will go so it was really about a year year and a half of like okay how do i convince people that i am worthy of investment how do i convince people that this is something that is needed how do i convince people this is a new idea how do i you know so it was really about that and it was only really when we started i started going to the factories and in portugal and that i was like okay looking at fabrics and i was like okay i think this is what the clothes are going to be like and that was kind of funny because i almost felt like maybe normally it's the other way around where you have to present what you're making you know but i kind of did business plan first but that's also because i have a back you know i have i have a history of stuff and so they could look at that but um it was very interesting i i i feel like i've learned so many things that i never thought that i was going to learn or that i was going to be exposed to like the the pain of a rejection of a conversation that you've had with someone that went really well and then you know there ends up not being any any investment like i've never how do you know what that feels like until you really experience it and then on the other hand the moment that somebody's like yeah and then you look at your bank account and then all of a sudden the money is on it you're just like you did this like you created this you know like there is there is something and it's not about money like it's not about power it's really just about this kind of joy that happens when you really work on something and you really believe in something and then somebody else believes in it or somebody doesn't believe in it you know how painful that can be too but yeah it's like it's it's about living a full life i think that's kind it's about i just want to live the fullest life i want to feel it all i i feel you i feel very similarly it's um good well yeah you're crying at these rotco paintings and everything yeah i mean it's like you know i'm really going through it but um you are so clear about who you are as a designer and a creator when you you went through all all of this you you were able to build it and launch it yeah what were some of the big like things you learned on in in this past year the the product's only been in the stores for three months but like it's a it was a as you as as 2008 it was a it's been a crazy time to launch something and to be in wholesale and all of that what was the sort of market reaction and how was it different from when you launched Seas oh completely different I mean funnily I say completely different but then also when i really think about you know doing the showroom in paris for that first season in june last year i was also really i hadn't done that in four years you know i hadn't i actually had not been a part of the fashion like industry in that way for four years and i was kind of nervous and i was like oh god like how do i speak that language even do i know and it ended up being kind of all the same people like they moved jobs or they were in different places or like but it's we're speaking to a lot of the same people and the new people were people that were you know like the assistants from the time when i was there so it kind of didn't feel like that different when it came down to the personal part like the people part but when yeah like i i think it is it is different but also sonda luck is different from cismarjan so what we needed to do at cismarjan and what we needed to achieve there you know we had a ginormous office we had like you know 30 people employee that we it was a whole different setup so there were different types of expectations there this is a much smaller operation you know like and we're very it's almost like we're like a little boat you know between all the cruise ships but what's also great about that is we can turn around and turn left and right really quickly like and move with the moment and move move with what's what's happening and i think you know the first collection sold incredibly well were all the great stores you know wholesale is obviously a really important part for you know many reasons and one of them as a small business is also cash flow and you know like there's a component like you know with the minimums at factories like if we were just to do DTC like there were there are certain pieces that I wouldn't be able to actually get the minimum to get the right margin to get the right you know so there's all of these components and then of course being in the right store like I was in Bergdorf the other day and you know we had the real in between you know sanderlack real and between balenciaga and tom ford's strange mix but kind of like an amazing moment you know we're just like oh wow like that's you know so there is that power too but what we are noticing and that's something we didn't really do that much at cismarjan because it was a different time as well but we've been doing a few pop-ups and just you know super last minute we find a space like one of them was like a nail salon that we converted it in like four hours into a shop and they have been doing so incredibly well so much better than like our online you know thing because people want to see my product is something that your real your eyes your hands like you know it helps it's you know our clothes are easy in that sense like it's genderless so it's you know like it's if we make it so it kind of really fits well like the fabrics are great like it's not complicated but it's really rich in color and and material and so So people try it on and they almost, once they try it on, they almost always end up buying it, you know?

1:23:13And I think there's that component, which initially I wasn't really thinking about that much, but now we're really shifting our model and being like, okay, this is obviously working for us. We're doing in three days what we do in like five months online, you know? Like it's crazy. so that's something that we need to now adjust that that means we need to adjust the business model we need to adjust all these other things and uh and but i think that flexibility is something that wasn't really so much there back in those days like back in the days it was like you know you have your hierarchy you have this person you need to please you have this thing that you need to do the store comes at year number six and now it kind of is everyone has to just do what works for them and and that is the that's more the language that is me i like to do things in my own way yeah well i mean you're doing it i think my last question for you is as a creative person has your process changed at all over the years because you are and i know we've said this a million times but you just really do it's really you have a very clear sense of who you are as a as a designer but has your process of how you get there and design collections changed over the years i think the there's two versions of of answers here i think there's a version from before i was in charge let's say before i was actually dictating the way of working so before that obviously you work in the way that the house works and you know like for drees i was sketching a lot for a balmer like i was doing like drapes and so you kind of like It's different things.

1:24:48But once I started Seize Marjan and then now into Sanderluck, more than ever before, I am really trying to use the restraints as a creative vehicle. So I'm really trying to see, okay, I don't have all of these options. And instead of that being a limitation, I actually really want to make that into something that pushes me into a direction. So instead of me having all the options in the world, I pick the best thing from what I can find. And then it's my job as a creative to make that into something where nobody would ever see, oh, that really was the third choice of what he really wanted. You know, like, and it's kind of like that is something that actually creatively has really opened me up because all of a sudden not having always this like anything is possible kind of mentality pushes me a lot more.

1:25:37so that's definitely new but when it comes to the kind of order of things i think it's always been color fabric and then garments like that has kind of always been my thing i first create a color card i then find fabrics in those colors or find fabrics that take those colors or you know the fabrics are related to the colors that i do and only then do i have my ingredients to make the meal so only then am i like okay well then we can make this kind of pants and okay that's also why my work doesn't always have a clear reference because I don't start with a reference because color is abstract so you already start with something abstract and that that's something that I really um I really like and I feel like I would probably have a version of that always the color you're wearing right now is so beautiful it's uh it's from the new collection it's like a a washed cotton tuxedo shirt.

1:26:36And it's this kind of like really beautiful, like almost like an ostrich egg kind of color, which is really nice. You know what I'm realizing? I just got like semi-custom shirts made at Charvet. And it's very, the one of them is very similar to that color. I know. I was very happy to see Mathieu do the tuxedo shirts because we had it, you know, we had it in our collection as well. so yes it's it's um it's gorgeous well i can't wait to see it in person i'll see you in june in paris yes please it'll be it'll be the first collection of the second year so it's going to be a new narrative i can't wait to hear what city it is or place place you will see you'll see sander congratulations i'm so happy for you and i'm so glad you're putting work into the world because people love it and it feels really good.

1:27:31Well, you too. I think you are amazing. And to be on this podcast with you, like, it's great. Oh my God. It's so fun. Are we going to cry now? We might cry. It's been a very emotional day after that Rothko show. Yeah, don't look at any more Rothko. Let it go. No, no more. This was so fun. Thank you for doing it. Fashion People is a presentation of Odyssey in partnership with Puck. The show is produced and edited by Molly Nugent. Special thanks to Puck co-founder John Kelly, executive editor Ben Landy, producer Maya Tribbett, and director of editorial operations Gabby Grossman. An additional thanks to the team at Odyssey, Kelly Turner and Bob Tabador.

1:28:15Few things are truly timeless because to last, you can't stand still. That's the beauty of Michigan. You can feel it everywhere. Like a fresh breeze on a riverfront stroll. Or how the nightlife hums with electricity. Like an old friend with new stories to tell. So let the excitement bring you back and bring you together. Season after season in Pure Michigan. Find your season at Michigan.org.