This Brand-Building Genius Sold Her Razor Brand, Billie, for $310 Million

0:00Hey, business besties. Welcome to the female Founder World Podcast. It's Jasmine. I'm the host of the show and I'm the creator of the female founder world universe. It is so good to be back chatting with you all. Today I'm in person speaking with Georgina Gouley, the founder of Billy. You know them best for their razors. They went viral after launching in 2017 and being one of the first women's razor companies to actually show body hair. She sold the business after a few years for more than$300 million. And you know what? Maybe you're not trying to build this huge venture-backed D2C company. I totally get it.

0:38I am not trying to build a venture-backed company that I exit for$300 million in a few years. That's not what I'm about. But I still learned so much from this conversation with Georgina. She is a branding genius. She worked in advertising before she started her business, and she dropped so much gold in this conversation for anybody who wants to create just a moat around their business by creating a brand that actually stands for something and says something. She's got some great marketing tips, a lot of stuff about up-leveling as a leader and building your confidence and all of that stuff that I just love to talk about.

1:13I hope you enjoy the conversation as much as I did. But before we get into the show, do you guys have the 9th of December marked in your diaries? Because it is the FEMA Founder World Summit. We're coming to New York City in this big event that is going to be just a huge celebration of everything that the community has achieved and just persevered through this year. I just, I can't believe it's the end of the year. That is so wild to me, but I wanted to have a moment where we can come together. We can celebrate. We can have a good time. Yes, it's a conference, but it's also a networking party. We've got a DJ and vibes.

1:49We have generation defining speakers. I can't tell you who they are yet, but you're honestly going to be blown away. I'm going to announce the speakers and drop tickets in our group chat over the next week. That's going to be the first place that tickets are released. They do sell out really quickly. We have never had an event that we haven't hit capacity for. So I really do recommend that you get into that group chat and that you just check it so that you know when tickets drop, you get one. I would hate for you guys to miss out. Also, I just calculated that our gift bags are actually worth way more than the value of the ticket.

2:23So if you just turned up, took your gift back and left, you would still be making money pretty much, which I don't know. I'm just going to drop that in there. It's going to be a great day. I hope to see you all there. What a bloody year. We really deserve a bit of a celebration. Okay, let's get into the show. You are now entering Female Founder World with your host, Jasmine Grinsworthy. Georgie, welcome to Female Founder World. Thank you for having me. For people who don't know Billie, what have you built? We built a women's shave and body brand. We started DTC, but now we are national everywhere in the US.

2:58Okay, I feel like that's a very humble explanation of what you built. I feel like you built a category-defining personal care brand. Thank you. Yeah, I mean, I think we definitely saw an opportunity in the women's shave category. So I can tell you a little bit about sort of the background and sort of the genesis of it. But when we saw this was like 2016, we saw that, you know, there were these new startup companies in the men's razor space disrupting those categories. Like Harry's. Yep. And when we started to dig into the women's razor category, what we realized was even the sort of legacy women's shave brands, they were all sort of started as men's brands and then like spun into women's brands.

3:45And so what that meant was women were really an afterthought in this category. And that came into play in a number of different ways. So one, they were paying a pink tax on a product that, you know, a men's razor, a women's razor pay more for the women's razor. The way women were being portrayed in the category was very antiquated to the point where, you know, nobody wanted to show women with body hair, body hair, like shame. Which is so weird when you're a razor company. I know. It's the way you literally show a product demonstration. And women were really, you know, for over a century sort of shamed into like having body hair.

4:23And that was a marketing strategy to buy razors. And then from a product perspective, you know, women shave, most women shave in the shower. It's sort of different dynamics. You're not in front of a basin looking in a mirror. So just even from a product design, we felt like we could like create a product that was designed specifically for the way women shave. So a few factors and nobody was really tackling the women's shave market. I think even as we were talking to investors, a lot of like male investors, they, you know, they sort of question, yeah, we can see that there'll be traction on the men's side because men care about shaving.

4:57But do women really care? And so so we felt really bullish that there was an opportunity that was being overlooked. You sort of you could see it playing out on the men's side. There was no reason it couldn't play out on the women's side. and that's where we saw the opportunity. What are some milestones that you've hit? So I know that the business was acquired a couple of years ago last year for what,$310 million? $310 million at the end of 2021. You're in Walmart. So we're in Walmart, yeah. So a few, I mean a few milestones. We launched in November of 2017 after building the company for about a year before then and we launched as a DTC brand And it was important for us at the very beginning to sort of try and launch with as much impact as possible to really sort of stand out in the category.

5:47You know, there were a lot of other DTC brands out there at the time in different categories, but they sort of felt all quite the same. And I wanted to really make sure that, you know, Billy sort of had its really own strong identity and really knew what it stood for from the very beginning. and I think that really sort of paid off because you know we got a ton of press traction in the beginning and sort of by day three we had sold to all 50 states and then because of that press coverage was that the yeah because of that press coverage I mean we really didn't have any paid media at that point or anything like that and then and then sort of sort of I'm a big believer in momentum and so once you start to get momentum you need to sort of you know fuel the fire and we were able to do that and so by month four we had reached out you know 12 month targets we raised along the way we made some campaigns that went viral I remember all of this I remember scrolling on Instagram and seeing these images and being like wow like this is a very clear you have a real stake in the ground yeah yeah and and so so you know that really sort of that really put us on the map.

7:02I would say we did this campaign six months in called Project Body Hair and we were the first brand in the women's shaving category to actually like show body hair and then you know say that shaving is a choice and not an expectation which was unfortunately a really new message in this you know century old category. But then you know quickly because we were able to gain a lot of traction you know we were approached by a big company to potentially be acquired and we actually signed a deal but the federal trade commission reviewed that deal and you know that was eventually blocked so then we pivoted and we were able to find someone else that wanted to acquire us edgewell personal care and they were able to acquire us at the end of 2021 right before we were going nationally into walmart stores in the beginning of 2022 and then in 23 we sort of launched everywhere.

7:58So now you can find us like Target, CVS, you know, all grocery or drug, all these places. Yeah. So it's, thank you. It's been a really wild, intense ride, but, but yeah, it was, it was a lot of fun and we were, we were fortunate. There were many things that came into play that allowed us to sort of see that journey, but you know, luck and timing are definitely one of them as well. Okay. Let's, let's go back to the beginning. So we have a mix of people listening. we've got folks who are already have businesses they're small businesses and you know small business the definition of that is actually businesses that are doing millions of revenue right so like that's not some condescending term small businesses are genuinely the backbone of the economy we also have people who are thinking they've got like these big category defining ideas like what you had and i'm curious about like what the lessons are from your launch that you can apply to both of those folks about how you make an impact how you get those first customers and how you really like set yourself apart as a brand.

8:58Because at the end of the day, you're selling razors. You're selling something that, you know, you haven't like hugely innovated on a product, but you've created this sense of brand around it that is so strong. And your background is in advertising and marketing. That's where you came from. What lessons do you have for people about how to set apart right from the beginning? So I think, you know, when you talk to investors, a lot of people talk about product market fit, which is obviously very important. But again, we had razors and we know people are using razors. And so product market fit is important.

9:32And we optimized the razor and designed it to make it, you know, tailor it specifically to the way women shave and, you know, and thought about a number of different things that sort of facilitated that. But brand market fit is something that's super important. And I think that's really where we saw an opportunity to claim our mark in this category. And so, you know, who is going to buy that? You need to be very clear on, like, what is your brand? Who is buying you? And a brand to me isn't just your logo and how you look. it's really it's like a person right like how you look is one thing but how you think and how you behave and how you feel like all of those things need to be defined and and that sort of and then and defining that and then knowing who that appeals to and hopefully the market is big that you're talking to a market that's big enough and that would be attracted to your brand I think you have to realize it might not be for everyone so you know when we launched our project body hair there were a lot of people that were like, this is disgusting.

10:44Just stop showing me body hair. And we kind of knew that going into it. We knew that this would maybe ruffle some feathers and that not everyone would be supportive of maybe the message that we had. But that was okay, because we felt really strongly like this is core to our DNA. We felt that there was enough people out there that would, you know, that this message would resonate with. And that was okay, right? And And that's what we saw. And it's a little bit of a gamble because I think when you try and appease everyone and you become this like really like beige vanilla brand, you sort of don't stand for anything.

11:20And then you're sort of forgetful. You know, people can forget you very easily. That makes a lot of sense. For people who are kind of trying to define who they are as a brand and who they are for, what are some of those questions that you ask or like what are some, what's the documentation that you put together? Like how do you externalize that in a way that then you can communicate it to a team or to a creative agency? Like what are you actually putting together? Yeah. So, I mean, that is, that is, the documentation is super important, particularly as you scale and sort of the brand becomes bigger than you or a couple of people that have initially started like the kernel of the idea.

11:58But I think it's, you know, we now have like a hundred page brand book that gets like, if we were a shape, what shape would we be? And all of these sorts of things. What shape would you be? We would be like a circle. Or like if you were a subject in school, we're recess, you know? but so we we've gotten now like really really into it but you know in the beginning I think you are looking at sort of you want your like your visual ID and your guidelines on how you show up right and then you sort of have tone of voice and then you can have as you think about like bringing like how we represent women like what are the things that we're doing there and you just sort of like you just kind of keep building and getting more until you sort of figure out what subject you are in school but and the more detail and the more color you can bring like what's the world you're building a world yeah when you're building a brand you're building a world and so the more you know you start small but then as it keeps growing you just keep adding to it you know yeah I think this is so important as well as a business is growing because when you start off you can have this you know maybe you as the founder you're the customer and so everything feels really intuitive to you and so you can have that gut sense check of like yes this no yes no but then once other people are responsible for making those decisions for you you need to have this like very clear right you need to have a sort of a clear roadmap you need to bring the right people along that's that's really important and I think a brand is a sort of living breathing thing it evolves and so you know even Billy day one to where we are today it's evolved and and not just in look and feel but also how we think and you know how we want to communicate with our communities and whatnot.

13:46So I think that's important that you keep it fresh. Okay. So I want to continue talking about this getting traction, getting your first customers piece. So you had this immediate success through press coverage. This is back in 2017. Okay. Then what are you doing? You're doing paid ads. What else was working to kind of get those first customers in the door? Yeah, it was really press and paid. And those two working hand in hand. And then at the time, I mean, even now, really, it was Facebook, Instagram. Those were the big levers. And, you know, we sort of did, you know, influencers and affiliate marketing, but really the, you know, search, things like that.

14:29But really sort of the big driver at the time, this is, you know, 2018, was Instagram, Facebook. If you were going to do it again now, what would you do differently? What channels would you use? I think now you know paid social is still sort of I think the main channel but the dynamic has changed right and it is it's become more expensive to acquire customers and I think you know sort of 2010 to 2020 you're seeing all of these like purely DTC brands and now what you're seeing is this omni-channel approach, even for really young brands. So for Billy, I think we were four years in before we went into retail.

15:16I think what you're seeing now is omni-channel is sort of from the outset. People are thinking about, all right, like we might get a little bit of traction and prove that we have that product market fit, that brand market fit. But pretty quickly, are we going into Amazon or are we going into a retailer? how are we going to get that scale because your paid dollars only go so far these days. I want to switch gears a little bit and talk about fundraising and how you get something like this off the ground. So you know some folks might be building a business where they are bootstrapping and they're profitable and that's what they're doing but for somebody who wants to grow really quickly and get to like a really big exit in a short amount of time you need external money to kind of help you do that.

15:59Right. I want to understand what your fundraising journey has looked like and what are some of those lessons that you have now that you're like on the other side of this for somebody who's just getting started? My co-founder and I, we were first-time founders, right? So we didn't have sort of a track record to be able to immediately raise money. And, you know, we took a lot of meetings and got a lot of no's in the beginning. And the first check that we actually got was through an accelerator here in New York and they gave us$100 ,000. And we were really, really scrappy. So we pretty much built the entire business with that, with the exception of an inventory order.

16:43But you know, doing... So you didn't have any product, but you had the brand and the website. Exactly. And you know, we had like, like samples of the product, just not, you know, mass produced. And along the way, though, we kept in touch with all the investors that were sort of saying okay we'll see where you get to and whatnot and and I think for us showing progress was the best way to fundraise so just keeping in touch and then like hey like remember how we said we were going to do this now we've done that and we're just keeping you up to date and that was that's always been the best way for for us and our experience to fundraise it was rather than kind of create this big process and whatnot it was just sort of like deliver what you said you were going to deliver, whether that's like developing the product, developing the brand, or once you launch, getting that traction and then sort of keeping up the conversations with investors so that when the time does come to raise, you're raising.

17:38So by the time we launched in November of 2017, we had around 1.5 million. And then, you know, and then that sort of, we kept growing and as again like we we sort of raised then six months in and then a year in a year in and the the raises just kept getting bigger and bigger and we kept using them to fuel the momentum. Is that terrifying? Is it terrifying? Do you just get used to it when you're bringing in these big fundraisers and you have these investors who are looking at you and their responsibility just snowballs as the business grows? I think you are in a whirlwind, right? And so you do, like you'll raise money and that's great.

18:23And you have like two seconds to celebrate and then you have to sort of figure out how you're deploying the money and like making good on that money, right? And that investment. And so I think sort of you do have these moments where you're like, oh, that's, you know, that's a lot of money and also we've got to do it. But I think you're so focused at like the task at hand that it's always like that was just sort of that was the one step to get to the next step and so you're always kind of looking ahead and things things happened really quickly in our you know by the time we were acquired we were four years old we'd already been through one acquisition that was blocked by the federal trade commission so things just kind of developed very very quickly and so we were always focused on like okay what's the next thing?

19:07What's the next thing? What's the next thing? I ask that because I think a lot of a lot of people might have a big idea, but they are just really intimidated by the by the thought of how big it could be and actually going after the funding that they need to get the scale that the maybe the idea deserves. And so I am always curious about folks who have done this on a really large scale about like, what is it internally that just allows you to have that confidence in yourself to kind of bring an idea like this to fruition and have this kind of impact? Yeah, I think for me, I truly believed that this was a brand that didn't exist.

19:55And as a consumer or a customer, I would want it to exist. And it was a lot of fun. In many ways, it sort of was very natural it was a lot of fun to build and I think from the beginning we were able to see like oh people people really like this and like people are sharing their razor like they would a makeup brand or whatnot and and people were getting really excited and so I think you know there was when when you launch you you sort of feel a little bit like you're out there and you're naked and you're like I think this is good I don't know if anyone else will and and I think once we got a little bit of validation then we felt we felt sort of encouraged to double down and to sort of scale it and to just really like chase after that momentum.

20:47How long into the business did you start taking a paycheck out? This is something I think a lot of founders don't talk about in that it actually does take a lot of sacrifice when you're getting started to get a business to a point where can pay yourself? Yeah, I think it would have been a year in. Right. And I left a paying job in advertising. And so, you know, that that year that sort of you're longer than a year, but maybe like 15 months or something, you know, you do you change your lifestyle. Yeah, you change your lifestyle. You know, you make sacrifices and you really, really focus on the business and all the luxuries that you had, you kind of, you don't, you don't, you don't look at shops anymore.

21:28You just focus on the business. Obviously, I was really lucky. I was with my husband. And so sort of our day to day living needs were covered. And that's, you know, a big privilege that I had. But yeah, you're sort of, you're being your most sensible self. I want to spend a sec just talking about this failed acquisition. So you were going to sell the business. It didn't happen. I think it was P &G that you were looking to sell to. Okay. Talk me through how that happened and then how it fell down and how you handled it. Cause I'm sure that would have been insanely stressful. Yes. So at the beginning of 2020, right before the pandemic.

22:10What a time. It was a year. So at the beginning of that year, we announced that we had signed a deal with P &G. Oh, wow. So it had been announced. It was in the press. It was announced, right, that the deal had been signed, but it was going through a Federal Trade Commission review. And so if they said it was OK, then it would go forward, but it needed the review first. And then so we knew that that would take it could it can take time. it can take a year and so we we were just in this waiting game and meanwhile the whole world shut down with the pandemic and you know so we were dealing with a lot of different things like managing the team during this period making sure that the business continued to sort of operate one to flourish like you know like make sure sales were going well and in the meantime in the background this this review was happening and we would you know answer questions as needed and do interviews as needed and you know sort of provide all the information and then at the end of that year they said so this took a full year it took a full year wow yeah is that normal yes it is normal it takes time to review they they believed this deal would be anti-competitive and that they didn't want to let it go through and so I think I mean I I truly thought it was going through so we were and obviously as it as sort of more questions came like we started to get a little bit nervous towards the end of that review period but at the beginning I was like yeah we're Billy Like, you know, you know, we're not this, we're not huge.

23:58It's not this like two entities merging, but. Gimmy Lever and PNG are not merging. I was like, and so, so we were, we were surprised. And I think a lot of people are now sort of in the investor community. A lot of people were surprised that this was the outcome. And so from there, we were really fortunate that Edgewell, who owns Schick, and they actually were they had a relationship with us from the beginning because we their their blades were the billy blades okay and so they were able to and we've had a really you know great relationship with them from the beginning and they were able to see like from launch where we had grown to and so those conversations happened after that sort of deal fell through hold on i need to know what you did on the day that the deal fell through I'm not even sure I remember yeah yeah okay I can remember the feeling but I'm not sure I remember the day the day on the spot right here I can't remember but it was pretty dark I mean it was just such a it was just such a it was such a shock I think even even towards the end when we were like oh is this gonna happen yeah you know We were sort of trying to put bets on like, you know, 60-40 or what do we think now?

25:19But I think to hear it, it was definitely difficult. But yeah, but really fortunate we were able to sort of, you know, we had these pre-existing relationship. And the business, thankfully, was in a really good position through 2020 because all the retailers shut down. So a lot of e-commerce businesses and DTC businesses actually flourished. during that time and so we were we were really fortunate and we were able to figure out an agreement with Edgewell that went through another Federal Trade Commission review but a shorter one this time and I think that was maybe six months and then right before Thanksgiving we found out that that was going to go through.

26:10Wow. Yeah. How does your life change after something like that happens. You're still in the business. Yes. So still in the business, still operating. I mean, I think the interesting thing is, Billy, you know, when we when we were sold, we were only four years old. So that still felt like, you know, we were just we were just starting to grow up, right? We were about to go into Walmart. And now we're in all the retailers. But I think I still very much felt like we're in it. We're in our infancy, maybe we're a teenager, you know, but we still have ways to go. And so, you know, we're very still, it's nice that we don't have to think about fundraising anymore.

26:47A lot of the operations, you know, we have the support of this, you know, huge company to go, we sort of negotiated the Walmart deal and to get into Walmart, but to get everywhere else, Target, CVS, all the places that was sort of relying on Edgewell's big sales network. There would be no way that Billy on its own would be able to go from like one retailer to all retailers and you don't see other other DTC brands do it that way so that was really because of the acquisition we were able to grow and scale so far but I think it's still a really exciting time and we you know we like we still have our team we're still based here in Soho and there's still you know many things that we want to do so things have changed obviously you know day to day but we still have our team here and we're still building and sort of the brand continues to be the brand.

27:40And so in some ways, I think it's allowed us to scale a lot quicker than if we were just on our own. Yeah. Okay. Switching gears for a little bit, because I want to talk about finding those big retail partnerships. And by the time you were going into Walmart, Billy was already this brand that I think already had great recognition. I'm sure that there are a lot of people who wanted to work with you and you had your pick at that point. What are some things that people might not understand about going into one of those big box retailers how does it work what are the surprises what are the things that you need to watch out for I mean it's a whole new world like going from DTC to retail is a whole and on that scale as well and on that scale right like we were going into 4 ,000 Walmart stores that was your first experience with retail yes wow and so we worked with a a third-party company that that that actually they sort of approached us very early in the beginning just to form a relationship should we ever think about like a broker yeah like a broker also something people don't talk about right because i've never gone into walmart and my co-founder had never gone into walmart and and like and it's a beast right like even to set up a skew in their system requires someone that's like done it a million times like it's it's a it's a whole thing and to understand you know what the right deal is and like what can you ask for and where like you know someone that like clearly has done it before has done it for other brands has a good relationship with the retailer so that you know they're also kind of scouting these new brands for the retailers as well so it's kind of like a a two-way two-way sort of situation but we I think the big thing for us was making sure that when we launched we launched with as much sort of in-store theater and presence as possible that was really important because you know retail is such a busy environment it's not like your website where you know it's all your real estate and you can sell it however you want and show all these beautiful imagery like you need to stand out on shelf and so a big part of you know how we were thinking about going in and launching was again launch with impact like that this is the theme right when we were in DTC how do we have as much impact and when we go into retail how do we have as much impact so that people literally notice that you're there yeah we had to change packaging because obviously ask this yeah businesses that are built on a common DTC like and then when you go on shelf in a store your packaging must need to completely change it it changes like and your packaging needs to now sell like but when you're you're using your website to sell and then it doesn't matter what it comes in really then now you're you're sort of saying like this is what you get in this box so so that was a big thing logistically I mean building up inventory to make sure that like you have enough to fulfill for these 4 000 stores and then if like if they if they all get bought out like you you can refill so so all of that was you know you kind of need someone to hold your hand i mean you can try and do it on your own it's just the the margin for error is quite so i i would if i was to do it again i would go with a broker again can we demystify the broker piece a little bit more how do these folks work like obviously they need to you need to kind of sell it to them as well to the broker to the broker right like they have to want to work with you they get a pick of who they want to work with if they're a good one how do those relationships form and what does it look like like are you paying them like a commission do most brands pay commission or is it on a flat rate what does that yeah so does it shake out so we we had a couple of relationships with different brokers but they the one that we ended up working with to go into walmart they they approached us really early on so they're also scouting brands and seeing like who's the potential and sort of forming that relationship and and so I think at the end of the day you want folks you just want people that you feel comfortable working with and that you trust and that will be good partners to you they obviously need to have really good like strong relationships with the buyers at the retailers so that you know you can get that sort of end cap display or the in like the on-shelf signage and for people who don't know what end cap is that's those are the displays at the end of the aisle where you walk past and you're like oh I want that thing right I'm gonna walk in the aisle and usually and like sometimes the products are there and there's like signage but it's it's like a billboard in store and that's a good get yeah yeah yeah you want as many as those as you can get and so so yeah so then you work together and you know they help they bring sort of the retailer and the brands together they sort of help you with the assortment and how like you know they kind of know a little bit how the buyers think and so they're sort of coaching you throughout the whole thing until you hopefully can sell in and then from there it's sort of like setting you up in the system and making sure like they'll help you with sort of how we how we how we think about you know how many units do we need from the get-go and and all of that and they get paid on a commission once you sell okay so once yeah so so once you're sort of in and selling product then there's commission i want to quickly talk about subscription because I know that early on when Billy first launched subscription, I think was like quite a big piece of it when you guys first, yeah.

33:16Does that continue to be a big piece of the business? Yeah. I want to understand like how you figure out whether, first of all, whether your product should have a subscription, how you price that and if there are any tools that people can use to kind of set up that kind of process. Yeah. So, I mean, we were only subscription for our razors and the refill blades and I think subscription is is great it's and it's a great business model but you can't make every product a subscription it just doesn't make sense and so I think if you if you're if the product makes sense to have a subscription then go for it but but I think I think there are many products that it got a bit sexy for a while there for everyone to have a subscription I think yeah and exactly and and some things I think were offered as a subscription that really were like are you like yeah sure like I know that makes sense yeah I know that makes sense for you as a business but I don't know if that makes sense for the customer yeah so I think always like with every decision just just putting yourself in the customer shoes is like the first thing you need to do and be like does that make sense would I buy that why would I buy that is it priced right you know at this point like everyone's competing with Amazon so probably Amazon Prime so like how does shipping go into it because people don't want to pay for shipping so yeah so that's how we think about subscription it's now a portion of our business not the entire business we are on Amazon we are in all the retail shops so but it's an important part of the business and I think for a lot of customers it just makes sense for them like they don't have to think about it set it and forget it like they need they shave they know how often they shave they know how often they need refills you know we ship it to your door for free So it still works.

34:58It's just, it's not 100 % of our business anymore. I want to talk about management and leadership and what your style is. You obviously had, you know, you built this career in advertising. It's not like you were 22 and coming into starting your own business. Like you had a little bit of experience under your belt. But I am really curious about what's kind of helped you up level as a founder as you've kind of been building the business. because something that I see with all of these founders that I'm speaking with is like the business grows as they are able to grow themselves as well. What are some things that have helped you?

35:34Yeah, so I think prior to Billy, I probably had managed maybe like four people under me. How many people are there now? And now at Billy, I think there's about 65, 70. Okay, so not four. Yeah, not four. and and so you sort of are learning on the job for sure and obviously it doesn't jump from like zero to 70 you know you're sort of growing with time and then I think bringing on at the right time someone who is like more is focused on HR that or like and a people like a people person they sort of become a counter your counterpart to sort of like okay here's like they've got experience scaling at other places you know the right sort of like the right things to put in place and they're kind of a coach to you but a lot of it is also just I think you have to figure out what kind of leader you are and what's like natural and true to you and then sort of coupling that with resources or a HR person or whatnot to sort of professionalize your leadership is important But I think we, you know, for me, like Billy is just the people, like it's the people in the company that make this brand, that make these products.

36:55And so, you know, who we brought in recruiting was, you know, was something that we cared a lot about and were really picky with, you know, who we wanted to bring in. and then I think just making sure that people were really good at what they do were like absolute sort of like entrepreneurs at heart like they were able to like there's mess and there's chaos but we can figure out like we have this like hand-do attitude we can figure out this the solution to this problem that we don't know exists yet yeah and I think figuring out like how to get all the teams working so in the beginning you sort of hire these specialists and you have a number of individual contributors yes right but once you start to scale you need those individual contributors to become managers to become cross collaborators to be peers yeah really hard it is hard and it's sort of a little bit trial and error and you realize like some people are really good as individual contributors and they're not actually really good at being managers or they're not the as collaborators, which makes it like difficult as you want to grow and scale.

38:05And so, you know, I think you're sort of like learning as you go and pulling in the resources along the way to sort of help you figure it out and navigate kind of the growth trajectory that you're on. So the last thing that we ask everyone on the show is just for a resource. And that is something that for folks who want to build something to the scale of what you've built, what books should they read? What podcasts should they listen to? What habit should they start doing? What's something that you recommend? So habit wise, I would say, I think it's really important that you learn, be a ruthless prioritizer.

38:47You really have to prioritize. There is a million things competing for your attention, not all of that. Some of them more urgent than others. The urgent thing doesn't mean it's going to have the most impact to your business. So you have to be like, I think that's a discipline that needs practicing, but ruthlessly prioritizing what's going to have the biggest impact to your business. Everything else can fall down the to-do list. That's a habit. And the sooner you can kind of practice that, your business will thank you. And then I don't have like books that I always reference you know a book early on that I really enjoyed reading was just just the entrepreneurial story of shoe of Nike with Shoe Dog so that was a really fun one but I think I again sort of don't have a library of assets that I always go to as I'm working through things like different challenges that come up I'll seek out I'll just go on the internet and look at articles and read up on where I need to be right now.