11 Rules for Box Office Appeal with Amy Nicholson | The Movie Racket

21:06Oh, God, no, no, no. No? No. Yeah, okay, great. All right, Joe. Look at this place. Yeah, thank you.

21:12Michael Phillips:Joe, be honest. Do you want us to take them off? I don't give a f*** if you take your shoes off personally.

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22:31All right, but no one messed with the thermostat.

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23:30Michael Phillips:I'm Glenn Washington. This is Snap Judgment from KQED. When everything is falling apart, what do you do? Hurricane Helene shut everything down. No roads, no cars, no way through. But his daughter was getting married. And somehow, someway, he was going to walk her down that aisle. All Systems Down, a new Snap Judgment miniseries from KQED, wherever you get your podcasts. yes here's one thing i wouldn't mind arguing with sturge's reputation a bit about he lands on a pratfall is better than anything that's his rule number 11 there's a lot of pratfalls in his films you get somebody like william demarest anywhere near and he's in most of them most of the great ones half the pratfalls are almost willfully unmotivated it's like yeah what the hell you know, throw it in.

24:25Michael Phillips:And Demarest can do a pratfall. I don't know if Sturges is as dazzling a physical comedy master as he is writing verbal slapstick. What do you think of my assessment? I mean, I think that's true. As fast as it goes by, I never do love that scene in Sullivan's travels where suddenly like the bus that they're on goes haywire and everyone's running around and the cook is like upside down. I think I've in general almost never been a pratfall person, except when there are emotional stakes to it. Like I like it when Henry Fonda falls in The Lady Eve.

25:07Did you hurt yourself? No, I'm fine. I just... Because his character is just so, so together. or he wants to see it, consider himself so together, that to see that straight-faced guy take a pratfall, great. You go upstairs and take a bath, and I'll like you just as much as ever. There's a good boy. Toodaloo. But, eh, messy people falling down has never quite been my thing. Except for the Jackass movies. They're like their own corner of the comedy universe to me. Right.

25:42Michael Phillips:Yeah, and I think contemporary slapstick tends to lean so hard into kind of a much more kind of like openly sadistic brand of slapstick. This is all flour for our friend Bam. We're going to antique him when he gets here. What's up? How much? How you been? High five!

26:04Michael Phillips:Not my thing. Yeah. Because you're a long way from Keaton at that point, Buster Keaton. The media may have peaked a little early. Keaton came along when he did, I don't know, on that front. Only on that front. But, I mean, there are, when you see actors in Sturges films, like Palm Beach Story was the one I saw most recently. But when you see Mary Astor just sort of like swan into this movie at high speed, you know, and then just eat these lines alive, you know. But, I mean, God Almighty, that's like the best high comedy vacation you could take. And just in a handful of scenes. Wonderful. Yeah.

26:39Michael Phillips:And what you said earlier just about the sort of the compression quality, actually that was something that I don't quote Andrew Sarris very much because I still don't know if he knows what a director does for a living. But he did write at one point, what distinguishes Sturges from his contemporaries is the frantic congestion of his comedies. Good word. The Bruegel of American comedy directors. Sturges created a world of peripheral professionals, politicians, gangsters, executives, bartenders, cab drivers, secretaries, bookies, card sharps, movie producers, doctors, dentists, bodyguards, butlers, inventors, millionaires, and derelicts.

27:15Michael Phillips:And that is kind of the teeming sense of things, I think, that, you know, when you realize you got these cockamamie plots that can barely be diagrammed, you know, done in as few as 85, 90, 95 minutes, it's kind of amazing. and I think that's why I love an arrival is better than a departure because it is always another door for another delight and another great actor, right? And I guess that's what I do hope a younger filmmaker would take a look at. Like, how do you make these, you know? I mean, is he an influential filmmaker or is he just like some sort of freakishly talented unicorn that we were lucky to get as long as we had him, you know?

28:02Or that we were lucky to have operating as peak as long as we had. I mean, although I do stick up for some of his stuff like Unfaithful Yours that came later in his career, I think he was freakishly talented. I think he set a bar that people haven't quite been able to match. But I do think most comedy writers working today hold him as like the mechanical rabbit on the track. Like, can I come up with something that makes me laugh like that? I mean, at least that's what I want to imagine. but you know what i think is interesting is like not only is he laying down these rules and abiding by them i suppose i'm trying to think of a scene where he has a kitten that's better than a dog which is the one i'm a cat person but i'm like i don't know if i believe that when i feel like dogs are funnier than kittens i love kittens that's the one i'm like as a cat person that i quibble with it i find kind of surprising even by myself but like he is working he comes to Hollywood, you know, before he's even getting to direct on his own in a time where right when the production code is getting serious, when these new other rules are being laid down on top of Hollywood, you know, where you can't criticize the clergy, where you can't criticize how many things you can't allude to all sorts of, you know, women stepping out.

29:15There's so many sexual rules, moral rules, ethical rules, you're suddenly not allowed to break on screen because they're trying to be upright citizens in Hollywood or trying to at least convince America that they are. and he's making these films that are absolutely criticizing american hypocrisy and voter fraud and attitudes towards pregnancy and gold digging at any costs and like he's getting in so many elbows at the american way of life within these codes i think there's something so punk rock about like the postcode comedies i know we talk about pre-code i love pre-code is like being rebellious and funny but i love the people working right after the code who are still getting it across, you know, that are figuring out what am I going to do in these constrictions to like let you know what we're laughing at.

30:01Michael Phillips:And in Serge's case, in wartime, I mean, it was, this was no time to make fun of anything. And then here he's making Hail to the Conquering Hero, which is this very, very, you know, cynical, kind of exuberant cynicism about patriotism and jingoism, right? I mean. Right. Or right now I'm like, please don't let anybody in office know about the great McGinty. Oh no, they'll really think people are going around voting in elections 30 times. Yeah, I read something just this morning. I'd love to share with you and see what you think. And it's about that sort of, not simply what he was getting away with miraculously, just frankly out of sheer speed, you know, in some of the moments in his films where you just sort of came, Miracle Morgan's Creek.

30:42Michael Phillips:It's like, wait, what are the implications here? You know, A, I love it that with that film, with Betty Hodden as the, we could just call it mysteriously pregnant, home front woman who prevails, kind of like unfurl very quickly in this film. But, you know, when the brass would say, well, what's this, wait, what's this film about? He says, oh, it's just about, you know, a woman waiting for a man, you know, to come back from the war. Basically like, okay, we're fine. You know, we're fine. And then of course, you know, he was always just about 10 pages ahead of what he had to film the next day. So, you know, he probably didn't know necessarily where this thing was going either.

31:18Michael Phillips:But back in 1929, he wrote a play, second play on Broadway. way. He was like barely 30, 31, I think. Strictly dishonorable. And it was a huge hit, two-year run. And in that play, it's set in a speakeasy. It's just basically a very simple romance between a Southern belle who finds herself in Manhattan and this Italian opera star who's sort of on the make. And that's it. That's the premise. That's the setting and all that. But within that, this is Richard Nelson here, the director and playwright writing here in a collection of plays, he said that this is a writer who expresses an international point of view and sympathies.

31:57Michael Phillips:And the play, Strictly Dishonorable, is a wonderful expression of the great debate which raged across America in the 20s and 30s, and still is actually, the clash between those urging America to remain isolated and those arguing for America to accept an international role as an active participant in world affairs. I mean, this play turns on this conflict between should this young woman who's kind of lost in Manhattan and charmed, but wary of this Italian opera star, should she, the conflict is between staying safe and protected and seeing the world and growing. And the play concludes on the side of expanding one's horizons.

32:39Michael Phillips:And that to me is kind of like that struck a bell with me it's like yeah the that's that's the great thing about his sturge the sturges films it's like it's not just about protecting the american way of life it's about you know being sort of like thrown for a loop constantly by either the american way of life and mores or just like these great sort of exotic you know elements that come in from from nowhere you know that's what feels modern to me about him yeah that's true his curiosity and his ability to say you might screw up disastrously maybe you're making a mistake but whatever let's go on it'll be fine like let's carry on here and then i assume that probably a lot of that just came from his childhood right like he had a mother who i think was continually falling in love continually getting married he was being shuttled back and forth between america and france i believe a lot as a boy so he grew up i think with that international perspective i think he had kind of a i don't tumultuous sounds maybe more negative than I think it was.

33:38To me, it sounds exciting, kind of, his lifestyle. Who knows? I don't know. I don't know how it would feel to be 11 and you're like, what's my mother doing now? What's happening? Why do I have another stepfather? But he got to live at the knees of a woman kind of chasing her passions and figuring out how to be happy. And I wonder if he invested a lot of that in his script. Maybe every decision won't be right, but look at her. She's still having fun. Yeah.

34:02Michael Phillips:The chaos in the films probably comes from a a more painful sort of chaos he experienced as a kid, but there's no reason to necessarily go there as a guy with a nice deal at the Paramount Studios. But you can find other things that led to the female protagonist that we love today. And I love what you say about the pre-code era because if you look at something like a few years after that, when the Catholic Legion of Decency triumphed and clamped down on the more brazen examples of ignoring the production code, you still have Leo McCary doing The Awful Truth. You still have My Man Godfrey, and you still have these films where it's more about, you know, if you didn't have work of that level of wit.

34:48Michael Phillips:And that's what I love too. The characters are not just smart ass. They are really quick-witted people, you know. And even the people that aren't supposed to be witty in the Sturgis film, They have the weenie king in the Palm Beach story. He's not a guy with a sense of humor, but he's hilarious. And for those who don't know the Palm Beach story, rent it. I can't possibly do it justice in an explanation. I'll just say that that's the gold digger Colbert. I love her in those kind of movies. She's so good at playing. Oh, just the money-loving girl that you're rooting for despite all. Despite being like, I think I'd hate this person in person.

35:27but like you know i'm thinking about it i mean i went to a catholic high school where i was always trying to figure out where the rules hadn't been written i guess if that makes sense you know where i would go through the dress code and it's like okay so i have to wear this uniform sweater but nobody is saying that i can't cut it into a crop sweater and then i'd get in trouble and then i'd like make my case and then they'd have to change the rule book and that was my way of amusing myself you know like oh okay i have to wear these shoes but it doesn't say i can't paint them in nail polish great i would do that then i get right yeah just just for that sake of like knowing that rules had flaws in them it's that's what i'm hearing in my head as i'm hearing you talk about all of these great postcode comedies figuring out how to i mean busby berkeley has always been my favorite where you know he's making the sexiest musical numbers there's a whippoorwill that's Calling you By a waterfall He's dreaming too

36:33There's a magic melody

36:38Michael Phillips:Mother Nature sings to me And then he cuts to a bunch of baby birds in the nest and you're like, oh, I know what these people are doing now. They're making baby birds.

36:55I love that stuff. There's something really punk about it that makes me happy.

36:59Michael Phillips:Right, right. I mean, it's getting away with murder when they're not really looking close. Or they're looking at the wrong things, but yeah. There's a magic melody. Mother Nature sings to me. Please find a waterfall with you. So, Amy, let's assume that a lot of people reading this list are going to say, amusing, whatever. If there's something that you could add to this list in a Sturges sort of vein that applies to where we are today, not just in the state of comedy, which lacks a Preston Sturges, of course, but also just with an industry that is really not even sure which pony to back on any given quarter of their owner's stock reports, right?

37:43Michael Phillips:Are there rules you think that might not be a bad idea to consider in trying to make comedies that don't stink in in 2026 whether you're a Sturgis fan or not you know I had two and I think I might have just added a third maybe maybe the first one's really small a consequence is better than a threat because I love movies where people are trying to you know oh no this is going to happen what am I going to do got to evade this got to get this got to get this done and when it's one single threat kind of dangling over the whole movie, I find that really frustrating. They're going to solve it or they won't.

38:19I like it when I'm watching a film and early on the threat comes true and it becomes a now what?

38:26Michael Phillips:Ah, good. Yeah. So that's one for me. A door opens. A door opens. Yeah. Another one I was thinking of really recently because I've been kind of monitoring the very stupid stoner comedies that are coming out of Hulu. Hulu is making movies that are like throwing back to the 80s. they're wonderful they're like so moronic and fantastic and they're making me excited about comedies again and they're doing something that doesn't quite fit these rules so i would call this rule a surprise is better than a rule because they're breaking stuff that you don't expect to get broken i don't want to give too much away about one but there's a scene where you think oh it's going to be a normal like escaping this hallway scene to get away from this person they You know, these people don't want to see.

39:12And suddenly people's heads start exploding. Let's do this.

39:20What?

39:22Michael Phillips:What? Oh, my gosh. Oh, my gosh. Oh, my gosh. Are you OK? I think, I think, I think. What the f***? OK. OK. I think our heads explode if we say curse words. God damn it. No. And it was the last thing I expected to see in this film was heads exploding. But the shock of that, it made a comedy feel completely alive to me again. Like anything could happen in this movie. And so, yeah, I don't want to make the same old comedies. I want to make comedies that somehow figure out something new to do. Yeah. I like that. Do you have a third one? Did you say? I have a third one that I think is just really minor.

40:03But because I suddenly thought, oh, if I can just get in a rule for Hollywood overall. uh then i will say this one thinking in mind of preston sturgis and how much he stuck up for his ensemble keeping them together i will say that the right comic is better than the famous comic because i think too many movies right now are cast dependent not getting even made because you can't get i don't know freaking kevin hart to star in them terrible i want comedies are where you get to discover new talents. And I want to see that there too. I want them just to put in some funny person I've never seen before.

40:39Maybe it'll grow up to be Mick Lovin and we'll never hear from him again. I don't know. But maybe it'll grow up to be Seth Rogen.

40:44Michael Phillips:Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And this is, there's not anybody in Hollywood who hasn't said in a position of green lighting power to the degree they have it, who hasn't said, we want to discover new talent or we want something fresh and original. I mean, Jack Lipnick in Barton Fink, who ran, what is it, Monumental Studios in the Coen Brothers film? I forget. I mean, he's spouting that kind of nonsense. Although I guess the motion picture law, according to Jeff Lipnick, is pretty simple, orphan or dame. How are you going to complicate your screenplay? Oh, I'd vote dame. That's good. I like that. Yeah.

41:22Michael Phillips:If I had to add one for 2026, it would be, I think, as simple as this. And it's more of a gripe. and that's that in action comedy which many many many examples keep coming at us small budget and especially big budget in action comedy comedy is more important than action yeah i don't like rom-coms that are just sort of think well all right well of course we're going to have huge action set pieces even if it's not inherently kind of like friendly to that idea like the i with the fall guy or whatever, you know. But I'm just thinking of films like The Lost City with Channing Tatum and Sandra Bullock, which I haven't thought of at all since this morning when I did a little research on it.

42:09Michael Phillips:I had actually utterly forgotten about that film. But that's the kind of film I don't have any patience with anymore. That's really true. I mean, that's almost, then we're really disagreeing with the rule that we made fun of at the beginning, that a chase is better than a chat. Because yeah, when it gets to that third act and then people have to run around or stop the bad guy or the comic has to take out a gun or whatever, I immediately stop caring. I do not care about that in the slightest. Right. Yeah. Could not agree more. And I couldn't disagree more with Sturges, that very rule, that Chase is better than the Chet.

42:40Michael Phillips:I mean, how much, why does he sparkle today? The banter is not incidental to the pleasures there. And every single character is quick-witted. Maybe he's trying to throw people off. Maybe he's like, only I can be the most prestigious comedy screenwriter in Hollywood. I'm going to give him a red herring. Go do that. Go do a chase. And I'll be over here writing some great chats. Yeah. So you would say, Amy, that you find value in this list beyond just sort of like a 1941 curio. Yeah, very much. Very much. I mean, gosh, we were even just talking about code and skipping over the a bedroom is better than a living room.

43:16Definitely an eyebrow raise there.

43:18Michael Phillips:Love it. Yeah. Yeah. I think I always kind of default to this line, but I've read it somewhere, where America has sexualized everything except sex. You know, I mean, advertising, everything. But when we see a genuinely sensual, free-spirited, romantic comedy that actually has every element of love working for and through the main characters, it's like a surprise that, oh, a rediscovery, you know. Yeah. It's all over Sturgis stuff. My God. And then he left us a lot of stuff for today's comics to satirize. Yeah. We have not gotten, I would say, much healthier. So have at it, people. Have at it. Have at it.

44:00Michael Phillips:Amy, thank you so much for your time. I mean, Michael, it's such a pleasure to be here as you're joining the podcast universe. Yeah, I've been in this space for a gazillion years with Unspooled, the podcast that I did with Paul Scheer. We did the AFI Top 100. I am always impressed when somebody comes up with a new original idea for a show. So kudos to you. Thank you. Thank you very much. I think you'll just be the permanent guest. I appreciate it. We'll see you next week. No, thank you. You're all pro, man. And the writing at the LA Times has been just tip-top, so way to go. Oh, thank you. Oh, Colonel, I'm delighted to see you again.

44:32We must play cards and strip lots and lots of cards. Stewart, some champagne for the Colonel. Certainly, Mr. Pike.

44:41You really haven't the right to drag me off like this, Hopsie?

44:45Michael Phillips:After Amy and I talked, I thought about something she said about how we're introduced to a film or a filmmaker in high school, college, whenever it is, and suddenly your taste in movies changes. Your taste is being formed or reformed, and it's too late. You're basically in love in a brand new way. Something has dropped into your life, and as Preston Sturgis says in his 11 rules for box office appeal, an arrival is always better than a departure.

45:21Michael Phillips:The Movie Racket is produced by Joe Dessau and me, Michael Phillips. Adam Kempinar and Sam Van Halgren executively produce The Movie Racket. Next week, we look at an incredibly reductive, unofficial Hollywood law laid down by the great Howard Hawks. And my guest is Billy Murnit, a veteran script analyst for Universal Studios. He's read a few thousand scripts, seen an ungodly number of changes in this wobbly screen industry, and we're going to take on the Howard Hawks assertion that a good movie is three good scenes and no bad ones. Sounds so easy when you put it that way. Thanks so much to LA Times film critic Amy Nicholson for joining us this week.

46:01Michael Phillips:She's also a current on-air voice at LAist and KCRW. Her book on Tom Cruise, Tom Cruise's Anatomy of an Actor, is out and about. And her second book, Extra Girls, will be published soon by Simon & Schuster. She also co-hosts the movie podcast Unspooled with Paul Scheer. I'd love to hear from you if you're in a communicating mood. Drop me one at movieracket at filmspotting.net. This is a Film Spotting production. I'm Michael Phillips.

46:42Michael Phillips:Apple Vacations

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