"A good movie is three good scenes and no bad ones” with Billy Mernit  | The Movie Racket

19:47Is that you? You're through, Harry. Come out. You haven't got a chance this way. What do you want? You might as well give up. It's a monster. Get back! Get back! Get back! Get back! Get back!

20:04And then for the combination of visualization, plot, character, and theme, the whole Megillah, the last shot in the movie, one of the most famous stills from that era, is Alita Valley leaving the cemetery after Harry Lime's been buried, Joseph Cotton waiting for her, and that huge vista of her walking alone towards him and then passing him.

20:27Michael Phillips:It's the greatest kiss-off in the English language, filmmaking. It's one of the greatest kiss-offs ever. So to me, that's three good scenes, and we remember those from The Third Man. And we're not even, you could add three more in that film, I think. I mean, just the discovery of Lyme, first shot of Orson Welles, discovered by the cat. Well, when you go to Hitchcock, actually, when I was thinking about this question and I looked at some Hitchcock movies, I realized, oh, my God, they're made up almost entirely of scenes like this. I mean, there's endless good moments like that in a good Hitchcock.

21:02Michael Phillips:Yeah, there's an interesting, I remember reading Graham Greene writing when he was doing film criticism in the 30s, speaking of The Third Man, because it was in a green script. Which was Greene, by the way, trying to be Hitchcock. Yes, yes. But he was very tough on Hitchcock. He was not particularly enamored with Hitchcock's work in the 30s because he resisted this idea that they were so kind of segmented showcase bits or I forget the language he actually used, but details that he acknowledged you do remember. I think he was speaking of the 39 steps when the discovery of the villain holds up the missing finger in his hand.

21:38Michael Phillips:And there he is, maybe not so reluctantly adopting some of the same ideas there, but I don't know. Apple Vacations, where your story starts. The July Savings Event from Apple Vacations is here. Book by July 23rd and save up to$400 off your flight and hotel package to Mexico, the Caribbean, Central America, Hawaii, or Europe. From all-inclusive escapes to bucket list adventures, Apple Vacations makes it easy to create memories with the people who matter most. Start today at AppleVacations.com or contact your trusted travel advisor. Apple Vacations, where your story starts.

22:17Michael Phillips:Zach, nice vacation spot, but without T-Mobile 5G home internet, I feel so cut off. It's scary. Relax. Just breathe in the woodsy woodsy-ness. Zach! Don't open it. It's a monster. I just know it. Buddy, it's just our DoorDash driver delivering our T-Mobile 5G home internet. Here you go, guys. Thanks. Look, Donald, now you can get the fastest 5G home internet with same-day delivery powered by DoorDash. And it's easy to set up. See? Nothing to be afraid of. We're saved! It's scary how easy it is. Get T-Mobile 5G home internet delivered the same day, powered by DoorDash. Just$35 a month with auto pay and a voice line.

23:02Michael Phillips:Plus taxes and fees. Same-day delivery for most internet-eligible customers. See if it's an option during checkout. Fastest according to Ookla Speedtest, based on Speedtest Intelligence data, second half 2025. All rights reserved. Doja Cat. My V World Tour.

23:21Michael Phillips:Live in concert. With special guest, Lotto.

23:31Doja Cat. Live across North America in 2026. Get tickets now at DojaCat.com.

23:44Michael Phillips:And now another appliance triumph from our friends at Grand Appliance. I love hosting summer parties, but dread reaching over a hot oven door to juggle appetizer trays. So I asked the experts at Grand Appliance for advice, and they recommended a Bosch wall oven with side swing doors for easier access. It's amazing. No reaching over the heat, and they installed it in no time. Post like a pro with expert advice from Grand Appliance. Shop GrandAppliance.com. I guess when I think of three good scenes and no bad ones, in The Big Sleep, which is an insanely, willingly complicated plot that doesn't actually track in many instances for people who have been obsessed about who killed a minor character at one point.

24:32Michael Phillips:It's never explained. As Philip Marlowe, played by Humphrey Bogart, sort of just investigates deeper and deeper into the sort of depraved corner of LA and his family. And of course, this was the film that extended and sort of like solidified the Bogart-Picall pairing and the myth of this is American romantic love on the screen as of the mid-40s. And then the movie, to follow the plot, he has to go to the owner of a bookstore, Geiger's Bookstore, downtown LA, find out some information about what's actually going. Yeah, I got to talk to Geiger. And he gets to brush off from the clerk working at the bookstore who knows nothing about books.

25:11Michael Phillips:And then he crosses the street to go to the rival bookstore, Acme Bookshop, and the proprietress, thank the movie Gods, is played by Dorothy Malone. And the scene that follows with Bogart's Philip Marlowe and the bookstore manager sort of teasing each other out, he's trying to get information. You know Geiger's bookstore across the street? I think I may have passed him. You know Geiger by sight? Well, I... What does he look like? Wouldn't it be easy enough to go across the street and ask to see him? I've already done that. Oh. You know anything about rare books? You could try me. Would you happen to have a ban her 1863 edition with a duplicated line on page 116?

25:56Michael Phillips:Or a Chevalier order of an 1840? Nobody would. There isn't one. The girl in Geiger's bookstore didn't know that. Oh, I see. You begin to interest me, vaguely. Turns out she's a very astute observer of what's going on across the street, or at least how to describe the suspected antagonist in the story. Well, Geiger's in his early 40s, medium height, faddish, soft all over. And he just says, you'd make a good cop. Affects the knowledge of antiques and hasn't any. Oh yes, I think his left eye is glass. You'd make a good cop. Thanks. And then the scene becomes essentially a standalone, I think, three, four minute movie of its own.

26:49Michael Phillips:Yeah, movie of its own. It is not really, you know, and I have never been so happy to leave the main plot line behind in a film like that because it is just terrific. And to me, that's the great example of a scene so good that if the whole rest of the film didn't even have any Bogart and Bacall, I would love that scene, certainly, as much as any other scene in film history. Yeah. So I would say that I can almost imagine Hawks sitting there going, all right, look, we've got the scene that basically the plot point is he needs to get information about the murder mystery from this woman. And I can almost hear him going, oh, we got we got to liven this up.

27:32You know what I mean? You can kind of see the strategy, which is what can we do around this fairly mundane, dull plot point to make it have some impact? And what it speaks to is character. And I would even say that in a way, even though the scene itself, as you point out rightly, is a standalone, meaning you could arguably cut it from the movie and you'd still have a functioning movie. Not entirely. that's what I mean when I say a scene that speaks to the sensibility of a movie Bogart what the what is the big sleep the big sleep is an excuse for Humphrey Bogart to play a private dick that's all it is and knowing that that's what the movie is really about Hawks does this scene and it speaks to the sensibility of the whole movie meaning Philip Marlowe is the kind of private eye who will take a break basically for a nooner you know if it's gonna happen that's what he's there for this is not like you know one of these other private eyes who's like all business it's not all business and it's not lee marvin and point blank or something this is like this guy's in it for the fun and and the perks and like how's his day gonna be you know so i mean it does i do think reflect the movie as a whole and that's why when we think of that movie we kind of go to it because yeah, that's the big sleep, is that feeling we get of that sort of casual, sexy, sophisticated, even in the midst of murder mystery.

29:04Michael Phillips:Yes, yes, exactly, yes. And I wish more films took that kind of, not necessarily a detour, but took the time to investigate the character in a way where it's not just sticking to plot line A. It'll close for another hour or so. It's raining pretty hard. That's right, it is, isn't it? And, you know, it just happens I got a bottle of pretty good rye in my pocket. I'd a lot rather get wet in here.

29:33Well, looks like we're closed for the rest of the afternoon.

29:37Michael Phillips:Beyond the bookstore scene in The Big Sleep, which I can never get beyond somehow, I think the other two that stand out for me are really variations on the theme of Marlowe as lust object. And he's basically kind of the proto-James Bond. I mean, the great fun of this is seeing Bogart just, you know, women flinging themselves from great distances into his path just to give this film more sexual innuendo than any film noir, well, certainly any detective film noir from the period ever, ever dared accommodate. But right away, when he comes to the house of money and sin, you have Martha Vickers, this teenaged nymphomaniac, literally falling into his arms on the way to the tennis court.

30:24What's your name?

30:25Michael Phillips:Riley. Dorgaz Riley. That's a funny kind of name. You think so? What are you? A prize fighter? No, I'm a shawmish. What's a shawmish? It's a private detective. You're making fun of me. Uh-huh.

30:46Michael Phillips:You're cute. Bogart's character is surprised and amused, and I think he's definitely the audience surrogate there because nobody had seen it. Things move quite that quickly, in a way. And the dialogue, when they were filming that movie, the Bacall-Bogart phenomenon had taken off with the public, the fact that this was a couple. and there were substantial reshoots on that picture, largely designed to give them more of what we got, Billy, in your pick, to have and to have not. So you have, I guess, scene three for me in this regard would be Vivian is talking to Philip Marlowe about how she likes to play the ponies, and then the whole discussion becomes this sort of sly indication of what I like.

31:38Michael Phillips:I like to see them work out a little first, see if they're front runners or come from behind. Find out what their whole card is. What makes them run. Find out mine? I think so. Go ahead. I'd say you don't like to be rated. You like to get out in front, open up a lead, take a little breather in the back stretch, and then come home free. I looked at a couple of the reviews at the time, and they are, I think, Time Magazine, which was about the stuffiest publication imaginable in the tone in every regard. But they were just like, they were apoplectic with sort of outrage and also laughter and amusement because they couldn't believe how funny this movie was.

32:20Michael Phillips:And that's what I love about Hawks, I think, is that he really finds a comic dimension to this eroticism that is just such a tonic, you know, then and now. You don't like to be rated yourself. I haven't met anyone yet that could do it. Any suggestions? Well, I can't tell till I've seen you over a distance of ground. You've got a touch of class, but I don't know how far you can go. A lot depends on who's in the saddle. And I think that's half of why his movie's in every genre, as you say. Everything from 20th century to Only Angels Have Wings, which is, you know, preposterous and cornball in terms of plotting, but it's also like very authentically felt in many ways about, you know, male camaraderie under extreme pressure.

33:09That's got great sequences that don't forward the plot at all,

33:13Michael Phillips:but it certainly forwards the movie in a different way. So I think that's what you can learn, you know. I hope people watch these movies who haven't seen them, at least in a while, maybe never, and see there's another way to get at what I'm trying to say as a storyteller other than just moving the plot forward sort of robotically, right? I mean, I don't know. I hope we can keep that in mind. Yep. And I wish more, I guess I always wish more films took that kind of, not necessarily a detour, but took the time to investigate the character in a way where it's not just sticking to plot line A. I think one that came to mind for me on a modern example of the Howard Hawks dictum that, you know, a good movie, a successful film is, let's say, three good scenes and no bad ones.

33:59Michael Phillips:I think Sinners was the first thing that came to mind for me. Ryan Coogler's Sinners. Such a good movie. Because it's not a film that is... I'd almost argue that The Third Man, for me, is hard. It would be hard, personally, to pull three good scenes up, because the whole film is a pretty organic triumph, I think. It's sort of... That really doesn't, to me, have much anything that breaks that particular Viennese spell being cast. But Sinners is a little more uneven, and there are things I don't love about it, but if I think of the three good scenes, to see the great mystical kind of piece right in the middle where we hear the young bluesman take off and we have the voice over explaining that you know music spans the entire age of past present and future there are legends of people born with the gift of making music so true it can pierce the veil between life and death conjuring spirits from the past Somebody take me And the future And I saw a screening down at the University of Illinois.

35:08Michael Phillips:I think it was the second or third time I'd seen the picture. And for an audience that had already most, I mean, half the, at least half the audience was re-seeing that film for the second or third time themselves. But for those folks and for people who knew, they had never seen an equivalent scene, period, in any film. We talked about it afterwards. It was like they had never seen a film take that leap unexpectedly. And of course, that is the kind of scene, Billy, I'd have to guess, maybe you can argue with this, that if Kugler hadn't really negotiated a tough hands-off contract with his studio, that is exactly the kind of scene that would not ever make it under most studio filmmaking conditions if you had to cut$870 ,000 out of the budget somehow.

35:53Michael Phillips:Yeah, which is a minor percentage. But that scene is meant to be what it is. We're going to not move the plot forward. We're simply going to kind of like open the lens wider. It's also some of the best, the most fluid filmmaking in the picture, I think, right there. It's right where you want it. That my other two scenes in that case would sort of speak to your point about character. And I love Delroy Lindo so much in that film. I think the role that he plays in Sinners was somewhat truncated in the final edit. And I know he's in some of the deleted scenes that you can find on the DVD and other forms of that.

36:32Michael Phillips:But Delroy Leno, to me, talk about a guy who just absolutely takes you exactly where that movie is set with no sense of even an actor at work or anything other than a really great, fierce authenticity. Terrific, that scene. And I love, you know what I love the best in terms of the writing is what I would say is sort of the slyest bit of maybe cultural critique in it where, like, it'll be Jordan's gangster character. Hittstown asks a local to watch his car while he goes in and conducts some business. See, I'm going to need you to come sit in this truck right here. If somebody comes and looks a little too long, I want you to lean on this horn, all right?

37:12Michael Phillips:Can you do that for me? Can you tailpon? and I'm going to pay you 10 cents for every minute that I'm gone. Would that work for you? Yes, sir. And she just agrees. And then he's like, no, don't. I have to teach you how to negotiate. No, man. See, we talk to numbers now. And numbers always got to be in conversation with each other. You understand? You got to negotiate. Hey, I love it just because, you know, it came straight out of Kugler's own probably lengthy and determined negotiations with Warner Brothers to keep control of the film the way he wanted to make it. And B, it's just, again, that's the kind of thing you just simply would not hear or see in any other gangster film is this sort of very interesting little, you know, in a humanizing moment for a murderous character, too, right away.

37:59Michael Phillips:So to me, those are my three. You know, that's Sinners is, I think Hawks would have enjoyed it. Now, 10 cents just won't work for you. Talk another note back to me. 50 cents. 20 cents. Best I can do. We got a deal.

38:25Michael Phillips:Okay, Billy, let's talk about what a story analyst actually does in your case and how that job changes over the years, over the years you've done it. How did you even come to it in the first place as you say as a freelancer first it was just i had a friend who was working at a studio in new york we there used to be if you want to talk about the changes all the studios used to have satellite offices in new york city which is no longer quite the case and he was just a friend who loved to just sit around and bull about movies together and he needed a reader for something he say, you want to try this?

39:08And I did, and it worked. And I worked in New York for a while for United Artists and some other places, and then had the good fortune of a friend who knew somebody at Sony. And when I was thinking about moving to LA, I started working for Sony. And from there went to Universal eventually.

39:29Michael Phillips:Story analyst. Okay. Story analyst. What we do in, and I think this is true of probably generally speaking, most story analysts in Hollywood. Two functions. One, we read all the material that comes into executives and we write coverage. So basically we are the readers who read what, you know, nobody wants to read. That's just a truism in Hollywood. I have an anecdote about that, which I'll take a moment to share if that's okay. Please. There was an executive at uni who heard that I had a screenplay and we were friendly and she said, I'd like to read your script. And by that point in my own career, I knew that that was, you know, kind of a dicey situation.

40:14I mean, I bent over backwards going, no, no, you really, you don't need to. But she insisted she wanted to read it. So this was also back in the day of hard copy. And so she took a hard copy week went by a couple of weeks. She would email me from Sundance and say, Hey, Billy, you, I brought your script with, I had my assistant, you know, print up a copy so I could bring it to Sundance. I'm going to look at it this weekend. And then a couple of weeks later, she says, hey, I'm in New York and I've got your script with me. It just became like a running gag that she kept promising that she was going to get to it.

40:47And finally, after about, it was literally four or five months after the fact, and let's not forget, she had requested it, not me. I never would have done that. I saw her coming down the hallway at uni and I saw that look and I headed her off and I said, listen, I so appreciate that you were interested enough and that you wanted to see the script, but I really understand how busy you are. And I know what this is. So please don't worry about it. You really don't have to read it. And she paused and she said, you know, Billy, you're right. I never will read your screenplay, but I will always want to.

41:25and you know there it is there it is everything yeah so so no one wants to read so we read the material we uh coverage consists of a cover sheet where there's a box score and i'll come back and talk about that for a moment and a sum a log line where you sum up the movie in a sentence or two a comment summary where you're basically saying what it is and then just other details about the film. Then there's a synopsis, generally page and a half, and then one page of comments, which is where you're assessing, is this a movie we want to make? The thing to bear in mind, by the way, to all the screenwriters out there who are listening to this is that has nothing to do necessarily with quality, meaning we are looking story, story, story.

42:07Is this something the studio wants to make? And by the way, you can get passed on for a myriad of reasons that have nothing to do with the quality of your work. If we've got something just like it that we're already making, that's a pass. If it's not a script that fits a category of something we're looking for, that could be a pass. So, I mean, there's all kinds of reasons. Anyway, the second part of the job is the fun part. Well, on occasion, which is we also, at least at Universal, we do notes on any movie that they're actually developing and hoping to make. So in other words, if I do give either a pass or a consider, consider is the thing we say for look at this, we then become the reader of record for that project.

42:50And for example, Bridesmaids, or even more recently, Wicked, I must have covered upward of 20 drafts on Wicked. Was it two parts then? No, it didn't. Originally, it was all one movie. The decision to split it in half came fairly late in the process. But I worked on it. I inherited it from another analyst who'd been working on it for years, and I worked on it over eight years. But I did notes on every draft. And what notes means is you're basically looking at each draft, comparing it to the one before, which is either by the same writer or quite often a different writer. And you're literally annotating what are the changes.

43:28And then this is the one place where you get to be a little bit creative and you offer suggestions of some ways, perhaps, that things could be improved. and you're listened to sometimes and there are certain movies where i can actually point to a scene and go there's my little fingerprint on that scene more often than not you know who knows apatow for example famously never listen he he basically raps fish with the notes he gets totally uninterested in studio notes but sometimes you really do get heard it depends And that's the gig.

44:32Michael Phillips:Story starts. Hey, Donald. Really flying on that treadmill. I'm trying to run as fast as T-Mobile 5G home internet, Zach. Well, you better pick it up because now T-Mobile has the fastest 5G home internet according to Ookla Speed Test. Really? How's this? T-Mobile's faster than that, bud, and it's still just$35 a month. Speed up. No! Plus, they've got a five-year price guarantee. Come on, faster. How can I go any faster? Channel the speed of T-Mobile 5G home internet. Think 100-meter dash fast. Think drag racing fast. Think speed skating fast. Now let's bump up your speed a notch. Hey, whoa, whoa, that's too fast!

45:13Michael Phillips:You'll be all right, just walk it off. Get on the fast track. T-Mobile now has the fastest 5G home internet. And it still starts at just$35 a month with auto pay and a voice line. Plus a five-year price guarantee. Plus taxes and fees. Fastest according to Ooglow Speedtest Intelligence. Date of second half, 2025. All rights reserved. Guaranteed for monthly price of 5G internet data on eligible plans. Find exclusions and details at T-Mobile.com. Doja Cat. My V World Tour.

45:41Michael Phillips:Live in concert. With special guest, Lotto.

45:51Doja Cat. Live across North America in 2026. Get tickets now at DojaCat.com.

46:04Michael Phillips:And now, another appliance triumph from our friends at Grand Appliance. With three kids, I'm always cramming the washer full. So when we needed a new laundry set, I asked the experts at Grand Appliance for a big capacity washer with a dryer that could keep up. They recommended Electrolux, and we love it. Advanced cleaning features with a massive dryer that gets everything dried the first time? Yes, please. Sounds like another perfect match from the Grand Team. Shop GrandAppliance.com. Bridesmaids might be an example of a film that you can point to a successful commercially, where you can kind of chunk that one out.

46:45Michael Phillips:People tend to remember, here's a scene I liked in it. Oh, sure. If it adds up to three, and it's a longish movie for what it is, but it didn't stop people from liking it, from really appreciating. I think because, frankly, because the Kristen Wig-Maya Rudolph scenes were so strong and it was actually a series of scenes that you could invest in as a friendship and trouble, you know, that made you get away with all the stuff that was being beefed up and added for Melissa McCarthy's character, right? Right. So what really cracks me up about Bridesmaids is that whenever they're interviewed, they always go, well, we wrote it in four days.

47:20And I'm like, yeah, your first draft was written in four days and it read like it. Yes. But 17 drafts later that I did 17 sets of notes on, it was quite a different movie. And yes, it had plenty of great moments. And as you point out rightly, some of that came from the emergence of Melissa McCarthy. Here's an example of what makes a good scene. One of the sticking points in Bridesmaids always through all those drafts was the pivotal moment late in the movie where everything's gone wrong for Kristen Wiig's character and she's depressed. She's lying on her couch. She can't get up. It's over basically for her.

48:02And they always, always, Mumolo and Wiig could not solve the issue of how does it turn? How can that character get up off that couch and decide to like go win her best friend back and make amends and make things happen. Once they had cast Melissa McCarthy and they knew what she could do, that actually helped them get to that juncture and they went, oh, well, she's got to be the one who comes over and says, Here's a friend standing directly in front of you trying to talk to you and you choose to talk about the fact that you don't have any friends. You know what I mean. No. I don't think you want any help.

48:42I think you want to have a little pity party. Yeah, I think Annie wants a little pity party. Is that what you want? You're an An asshole, Annie. Oh my God, what are you doing? You're an asshole. I'm life, huh? Life bothering you? Yes, I'm life, Annie. What are you doing? Kristen, life giving a hard time, and if he's hitting her, she's slapping her, going. And it's just so great because of that character. That's how they solved the plot point, right? They brought in a character who could deliver hard truths, tough love to Kristen Wiig and make it work.

49:11Michael Phillips:It seems inevitable now, yeah, yeah. And the other point that we were talking about before when I talk about the subtext, the sensibility of a movie. The reason that was a hit was it was the perfect moment for what was essentially a feminist movie. That was the movie, we all forget this now, but the big scuttlebutt in the day was, can women be funny? I know it's absurd that that was ever a question, but believe it or not, that was the ethos at that moment in time. It's like, well, women can't make comedies that are funny. It's like, oh, yeah, do you remember Lucille Ball? Has it got any collective memory here?

49:50But anyway, that was the movie that broke it wide open because it was released. The thing that those screenwriters had was fingers on the pulse of the culture. And they understood that it wasn't just a story about two women and their friendship. It was a story for all women at that point in America and in the world at that point in time where this new sensibility of looking at things from a female and feminist point of view really was fresh. And that's why it hit. Now, meanwhile, what this makes me think of is there are a number of movies that were flops in their day that we've come to think of as classics.

50:28Most famously, It's a Wonderful Life, which completely tanked back in the day. But the darkness of that movie, which was slightly ahead of the culture, is now something that we embrace. We see that movie and we go, well, yeah, that's actually, for a fantasy, that actually has some truly dark, some truly devastating moments in it. And that's why it resonates for us. And we can see, oh, yeah, I get that movie. Blade Runner in its day, Tanked, has become like the sci-fi classic for so many people.

51:00Michael Phillips:How you're describing these scenes and how the films sometimes take time to find. Yeah. Well, and also find their audience after they're out, you know, maybe a generation later even. Is Hawks' dictum, three good scenes and no bad ones, is that really good enough? Typically, would that have been good enough for you, Billy Murnett, as a story analyst to say, if a film has like, even if it has story issues, do three good scenes on the page, would that have really constituted a consider? No. No. To be honest, no. All right, this interview is over. I'm sorry. Yeah, no, it would be part of it. But the awful truth about screenwriting is, as I said before, premise rules supreme.

51:50Story concept. In that cover sheet that I described on coverage of any script that comes to a studio, there is this box score where on the top it's like excellent to poor and you can rate that and they're looking at elements which are character story concept plot structure setting which means production and dialogue and you're assessing from excellent to poor on those sometimes the only thing the executive will look at is the box score and if it's got really high marks on character production even plot structure but it has a low mark on story concept, that exec will immediately think this must be a pass.

52:36Because what we're talking about is the difference between concept and execution. And sadly, execution does not really necessarily come into play that early in my neck of the woods. Right. So I'd say, yeah, if I read a script and it's got three great scenes or more than that, I will definitely be more favorably inclined towards that movie. But if it doesn't have a story concept, a premise that makes me think, yeah, we could actually make money with this. And this is something that we are looking for, whether we know it or not. That's the total necessary thing. That's where the buck stops.

53:13Michael Phillips:Where would the film that marked writer, director Jordan Peele's feature directorial debut, Get Out, where would that fall in that sort of list? Because I know you had a close encounter with that. Yeah, that's one of the great. I would say arguably the favorite moment of my career as a story analyst. It landed on my desk, and I knew zip, not even the genre. So when I saw the title page and saw Jordan Peele's name, I thought, oh, funny comedy, you know, about the Black experience. I had no idea what I was in for. That's a script where when I got to the end and as I was reading it and I got more and more excited by it, by the time I got to the end, which, by the way, was a little bit of a bump.

53:56And I'll explain that in a minute. I was so excited that it is the only time I can remember where I literally went out of my office, draft in hand, walked into the story department and said to my story editor, we got to make this movie. I mean, that's that's never happened before or since. Now, the thing about the ending is that it was a bad, sad ending. It was actually. Yeah, I talked to him about this. It's Kaluuya getting arrested, jailed, and nobody believing him. And him sitting in his holding cell across from his friend, the security guy, going, you know, almost being sort of like one of those they've driven me crazy, like end of the body snatchers kind of thing.

54:41and his friend basically going, I told you not to go in that house. So it was a downer. And in fact, it took Jason Blum arguing with Jordan Peele to get him to change the ending and go out on a positive note, which of course helped the movie work even better. But my point is, it was so good that even with the downer finish, I was so excited about it. And of course that movie has the three scenes that pop into my head. Automatically, everybody remembers the first teacup scene. Everyone remembers that teaspoon going around that cup. You're so scared.

55:19Michael Phillips:You think it was your fault.

55:25Michael Phillips:How do you feel now? I can't move. You can't move. I cannot move. You're paralyzed. Everybody probably remembers the opening abduction, where the movie starts with a guy walking home and that berserko music and this weird clown-like kidnapper. Not today. Not me. You know how they like to do my f***ers out here, man. I'm gone.

55:58Come on, bruh. Yo!

56:05And then the climax in terms of when he's gone to the dark place, he's bound in that chair. And when he finally figures out by scraping with his nails that he can figure out a way to get out of the chair, that's another moment that you remember. But it's full of great moments like that.

56:21Michael Phillips:My God, I mean, we just saw Get Out in a screening down at the final edition of Ebert Fest, and Betty Gabriel came in, who plays the maid. The maid, that scene. That scene of her getting hysterical, where she's going, no, no, no, and starting to cry. Oh, my God. The most contained hysteria ever captured in that film, I think. So good. So good.

56:52Michael Phillips:Oh, no. No. No. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Aren't you something? It's amazing to me, if you're telling me, that that worked almost as effectively on the page and then magically the right actress for it the best actress possible here's my point it worked on the page the entire script because the premise was so strong the story concept was gangbusters so even if it had not been executed so well but it was written very well but even if it had problems we would have just thrown another three or four writers at it and either fucked it up irretrievably or made it better, you know.

57:37Yeah, yeah.

57:38Michael Phillips:Billy, you're closing out your career as a story analyst, right? Yeah, well, I've been in it far too long. I mean, traditionally, my job is considered an entry-level kind of job in terms of the studio system and the hierarchy. Not too many people become lifers. I did because I'm a writer and I wanted to be making a living as I tried to get my own work produced. I sadly never have to date had a movie produced. I've had some optioned. I did get a first novel published by Random House and I've had other successes of a sort, but it was a great gig to have in terms of supporting my other work. And I also taught for many years.

58:21But, you know, if you've read more than 10 ,000 scripts in your day, you really need to have your head examined. You know, we get great medical coverage and there are other perks, you know, involved and it's a union gig. So that's great. It's got a stability I never had when I was a musician, which was my work in the first half of my life. But yes, I'm at the point in my own life where because I'm of an age where friends and family are being stricken by illness, this, that, and the other thing, I did not want to keel over while doing notes on Pitch Perfect 7 or meet the Fockers' great-great-grandchildren.

59:02No, that was not how I wanted to go out. And I'd like to have some time of my own to really devote to my own writing and other stuff. So yeah, I'm leaving there now But how's this for a wrap-up point of view? If I was going to be asked What would, to go back to the Hawks dictum Do I have one? Like, can I offer what, out of all these years Of working in the industry What have I gathered is something to say I would correct a famous quote in Movie Land Which is that William Goldman once said Nobody knows anything And it's a great quote and it gets a laugh. And in some senses, abstractly, it's true.

59:46But I think he was wrong. And far be it for me to be correcting William Goldman, one of our great screenwriters ever. But in my experience, the proper quote would be, nobody knows everything. That's the difference. Rare is the screenwriter who is equally good at every aspect of screenwriting. David Koepp comes to mind. Fantastic. One of the A-list, great screenwriter. But what he excels at is plot and structure. That's, you know, he's non-pro in that. But he's not necessarily as good in some other respects. Tony Gilroy is about the only screenwriter I can think of offhand who excels at practically, if not every level of screenwriting.

1:00:36He's one of those rare guys. The dialogue is just as good as this concept. Thematically, he's gangbusters. But, you know, the reason sometimes you see so many names on something is that it is a collaborative medium and it sometimes takes more than one cook to really make the thing work, to get those three great scenes. I think the thing that does still ring true, that is, I guess, always going to be true, is a memorable moment. That's what generates word of mouth. People talking about, for example, weapons. There's a case of a low budget movie. Same with Obsession and Backrooms. Here's what's wonderful about what's happening right now, which is a strange thing to say, because yes, we're in dire straits in terms of the traditional methods of moviemaking.

1:01:26People just don't know what to do. But here's what's wonderful. The audience is finally actually telling the studio system what they want to see. And what they want to see is something that feels authentic, that feels like it's coming from the culture. It's no accident that these guys got their, you know, earned their spurs on YouTube and whatever format. We're now at a point where word of mouth being generated either through social media or just people is actually saying to studios, fuck your big budget bonanza. We want this little funky movie that really got us because it's speaking to something in the culture right now that resonates.

1:02:10So, I mean, that's to me actually a positive sign. strangely.

1:02:14Michael Phillips:Maybe it's as much churn as we were experiencing when you and I were kids, when the counterculture audience was sort of making the hits happen, and the studios didn't even know what to make of it in the 60s. In the mid-late 60s. I think that's true. So on we go. Billy and Merner, I appreciate your time. My pleasure. Thanks for coming. Take care. Love to talk about this stuff. Thank you, Michael. Steve, do I have time to think about it, Cricket? Sure, go ahead. After Billy and I talked, I thought about this paradox in the life of a veteran studio story analyst. All these years for your bread and butter, you're keeping an eye out for new screenplays that have as many of the boxes ticked as possible.

1:02:59Michael Phillips:Story, character, dialogue, but above all, on directives from above, you're looking for concept, preferably easily explained and smelling like money. So here's the paradox. Billy is a huge Howard Hawks fan, obviously, as am I. And so many of Hawks' best films aren't especially concept-dependent or even plot-dependent. Maybe with the right writers, the right people on the screen, and the right director with an eye for not just atmosphere, but character, and an instinct for idealized romance, hard-boiled or over-easy, maybe that is enough. Anyway, I'm for any unofficial Hollywood law that gets writers thinking today about what is going to make a scene really percolate, even if you have to shovel a little exposition to go on top.

1:03:54Michael Phillips:Speaking of which, you know what one of my three good scenes, well, great, really, and more than three, from Hawks' To Have and Have Not would be? I vote for The Last 45 Seconds. An incredibly quick wrap-up. You got Bogart, Bacall, and Walter Brennan singing So Long and leaving the Martinique nightclub behind to the tune of Hoagy Carmichael and the band. It's the nuttiest, happiest possible ending to a wartime romance. Cricket, I can't say goodbye. What? We're leaving now. Thanks for everything. Hey, Slim, are you still happy? What do you think?

1:04:36Michael Phillips:Thanks to Billy Mernet, whose credits include the screenwriter handbook, Writing the Romantic Comedy, first published in 2001, revised in 2020. The Movie Racket is produced by Joe Dessau and me. Adam Kempinar and Sam Van Halgren are the executive producers constantly dreaming up three good ideas and no bad ones ever. You'll find all the fine Film Spotting podcasts on the Film Spotting feed wherever you get your podcasts, or go online at filmspotting.net and look for the Movie Racket archive. I wouldn't mind hearing from you at movieracket at filmspotting.net. Thanks for listening, folks. This is Michael Phillips, and this is a Film Spotting production.

1:05:29Michael Phillips:some so-called suvs feel more like toys you need a real vehicle that'll handle real life a real suv like the all-new 2027 kia seltos with its best-in-class interior room it'll make the others feel like toys check out the new 2027 kia seltos x-line it's real world ready Kia, movement that inspires. Limited inventory available. Comparison based on publicly available data regarding cargo room and 2026 entry all-wheel drive CUVs as of May 2026. Entry all-wheel drive CUV class as defined by Kia segmentation. The Hulu original series Furious is now streaming on Hulu and Hulu on Disney+. Starring Emmy Rossum as Alice Black, Furious follows a rookie FBI agent on the hunt for Catherine, played by Lola Pettycrew, a mysterious and calculating female serial killer.

1:06:14While Alice upholds justice, Catherine kills for it, terrorizing the rich and powerful men of New York in her pursuit of vengeance. With secrets that change everything, Alice discovers there's a thin line between Hunter and Prey. Watch the Hulu original series, Furious. Now streaming on Hulu and Hulu on Disney Plus for bundle subscribers. Terms apply.

1:06:36Michael Phillips:Apple Vacations, where your story starts. The July Savings Event from Apple Vacations is here. Book by July 23rd and save up to$400 off your flight and hotel package to Mexico, the Caribbean, Central America, Hawaii, or Europe. From all-inclusive escapes to bucket list adventures, Apple Vacations makes it easy to create memories with the people who matter most. Start today at AppleVacations.com or contact your trusted travel advisor. Apple Vacations, where your story starts. Honey, Felipe sent another photo. From Argentina? How? With T-Mobile, of course. Mira, he's video calling us. Hola, familia.

1:07:16Did you get my photos?

1:07:17Michael Phillips:We did. They're so pretty. Here to share every moment with T-Mobile. Enjoy data roaming at no extra charge in 21 Latin American countries. Switch now on the T-Life app or T-Mobile.com slash connectate. Qualifying plan required not for extended international use. You must reach out in the U.S. and primary usage must occur in our network. Visit T-Mobile.com.