"All you need to make a movie is a girl and a gun" with Rachel Walther | The Movie Racket

19:35Michael Phillips:Near the airport at Desert Center, I pulled up for water. There was a woman. And he picks up a mysterious, alluring woman. Hey, you! Come on if you want a ride. And she turns out to be just this pure, feral force of evil and ill will. and it's what happens to him as the result of that. And the actress who plays the woman, Anne Savage, to me, she's both girl and gun in one. It's just this amazing, vicious performance. So all her movies need are a girl and a girl, really. Yeah, yeah. Okay, got it. She's something else. That movie is something else. How far are you going? How far are you going? And so, yeah, those are the two that immediately leapt to mind for me.

20:21Michael Phillips:That's good, yeah. that's such a kind of a grimy really memorably grimy picture and it's just you do feel like you get kind of the cold creeps watching that in a way Gone Crazy is just flat out delightful you know flying around and again like they're throwing the camera in the back of the car you're with them when they're on these chases it's so exciting and freewheeling but yeah detour like you said that's a great word for it it's very grimy And it was a movie that kicked around in public domain because it was in a major studio that made it. And so that's how most folks saw it for the first time was at 2 a.m.

21:00on public access TV or a weird internet streaming bootleg. And so that adds to its appeal.

21:06Michael Phillips:Yeah, it's like people didn't know if they were dreaming it. Yes, that's a very good way to put it. There's a scene in Detour maybe about 20 minutes in. Tom Neal, he's just picked up Anne Savage, but she's a little out of it. She's sleeping. And so he's doing sort of a voiceover monologue, dreaming about his girlfriend, Becky. He's going to go to California, and she wakes up, and he turns around, and she's just got this scary look on her face, and she just snaps at him, where'd you get this car? And she just starts rattling off this, I know what you're up to, mister, I know this isn't your car.

21:39She just immediately lays into him with this prescient sense of, how does this woman know this? Who is she? What is going on? And the whole vibe of the film shifts. the moment she speaks.

21:49Michael Phillips:Fantastic. You just can't trust a dame. I mean, honestly, that's one of my, you sort of have to kind of like, you know, roll your eyes even if you're sort of smiling through some of the not-so-subtle messaging in film noir. Of course, of course, that's, you know, one of the takeaways always is like, couldn't trust her, you know? Oh, and it's the World War II thing of, you know, the men came back and it's like, well, what was she up to while I was gone? What's happening? And then that trickled up into the A pictures, Best Years of Our Lives has stuff like that. So it was this suspicion at every level from crime upwards.

22:25Michael Phillips:Yeah, those are great, great picks. And Evan, if you haven't seen them lately, it's like this. I think you're right, though. There's something about revisiting these movies, these types of films now that kind of just, it doesn't just speak to the times we're in. It just sort of actually finds a way to make you feel them in a different way, you know, what we're living through. It's a bit of a catharsis. Yeah.

23:12Michael Phillips:Apple Vacations or with your trusted travel advisor. Apple Vacations, where your story starts. Hey, this is Kevin. This is Joe. And this is Nick from Hey Jonas. You know, I recently learned that every 36 minutes, another child in the U.S. is diagnosed with cancer. Think about that for a second. Some of the bravest warriors you'll ever meet aren't professional athletes or superheroes. They're kids in this fight. And every day, these young warriors face challenges most adults couldn't imagine. Yet they continue to show up with incredible courage, determination and hope that's why we're proud to support hyundai hope on wheels for the past 28 years with support from hyundai their dealers and every new hyundai sold hope on wheels has contributed over 300 million dollars to childhood cancer research helping save more than 40 000 kids but we're not done yet we need your help together let's bring every warrior home join the fight to end childhood cancer at hyundaiwarriors.com or ask about hope on wheels at your local hyundai dealer.

24:10Michael Phillips:I'm Glenn Washington from Snap Judgment, the storytelling podcast from KQED. Imagine an iconic piece of paradise overrun by one of those horrific fires in recent memory. Everyone flees, everyone, except one person who decides to fight the flames. All systems down the moment when nature, institutions, and technology fail at the exact same time. A new Snap Judgment miniseries from KQED, wherever you get your podcasts. Healthcare can feel complicated. That's why Optum uses technology to connect the people and processes that make healthcare easier, more affordable, and more effective. We're making it clearer for you to know exactly what your benefits cover.

24:55And to help you better manage your health, we're coordinating care between your doctors and your technology. We believe better, simpler healthcare is always possible. That's healthy optimism. That's Optum. Visit Optum.com to learn more.

25:12Michael Phillips:I got a couple of 40s films that I'd probably throw in for mine, and they're well-known. I wish I had new discoveries for people, but the ones that really mean something to me, I guess, hit me when I was young and stayed with me and remain so revisitable. One is Billy Wilder's Double Indemnity. Now, I'm not the first to reference Double Indemnity as a key noir. The last time I saw it, it was with a crowd of about 500 people at the music box. And just to hear it kind of clicking with everybody in that room in the theater, beautiful theater here in Lakeview, Chicago, clicking with the crowd that knew that film pretty well.

25:50Michael Phillips:And then there were a couple hundred people who were seeing it for the first time. That's a great mix. The Letterboxd Gang, you know, which were people who were really enthusiastic about seeing more of the film. And they'd always heard about it, maybe seen it at home, but probably hadn't seen it communally. communally. And just to see Barbara Stanwyck really, really whine this guy, this insurance sap played by Fred McMurray, who's kind of a wonderful mixture of, you know, like a tough guy, but also a complete patsy, you know. But Stanwyck - He thinks he knows what's going on, but - No, I mean, truly, Stanwyck didn't spend most of her career in noir, but no one was destined for it.

26:29Michael Phillips:Like, maybe with the possible exception of Joan Crawford, you know, would be kind of the two inevitable big stars. I think they're key reasons why the movement gained such traction and I think why it's enduring today. Because also those two actresses in particular got adopted in a camp way too, but it kept their names alive. It kept those visuals in our consciousness. That's great. And Stanwyck for me, it's not so much, not noir at all, but a lot of the great female stars in the Hollywood studio era of, especially the pre-code era in the early 30s, they were seizing the day with these parts that would not really be available to them a few years later because they had to be sanitized and sort of like morally improved and all that.

27:16Michael Phillips:But when you, I mean, you know, again, I'm not the first one to kind of extol the virtues of baby face, but that, I mean, think of the audiences in 33 who hadn't, had seen Stanwyck maybe in a lot of, she made a lot of films by 1933, but good Lord. I mean, that she is girl and gun personified, even if she's not holding a gun, even if she's just using any weapon, including herself, you know. Well, and that's really where she stood out. I mean, I mean, she could be sweet in a lot of films too, but a lot of women could be sweet, but only a few could capture that, like you said, seizing the day attitude and energy, or I guess what they call, the kids would call it today, main character energy.

27:54Michael Phillips:Yeah. Do you think that there's something to the first meeting of Barbara Stanwyck's character and McMurray's character in Double Indemnity that kind of feels like an emblematic, you know, like here's how we're going to get these two combustible characters together. I wish dialogue sounded like this today. Mr. Neff, why don't you drop by tomorrow evening around 8.30? He'll be in then. Who? My husband. You were anxious to talk to him, weren't you? Yeah, I was, but I'm sort of getting over the idea, if you know what I mean. There's a speed limit in this state, Mr. Neff. 45 miles an hour. How fast was I going, officer?

28:31I'd say around 90.

28:33Michael Phillips:Suppose you get down off your motorcycle and give me a ticket. Suppose I let you off with a warning this time. Suppose it doesn't take. Suppose I have to whack you over the knuckles. Suppose I bust out crying and put my head in your shoulder. Suppose you try putting it on my husband's shoulder. That tears it. Yeah, and it's also, it has excitement for the audience because, oh, we know where this is going. Like, they both think that they've got the upper hand, but they're both, especially Stanwyck's character, is trying to let Fred McMurray lead because she knows that that's what he needs to think in order for her to get what she wants.

29:07But as an audience, we know where he's coming from. We don't know what she's up to. Right. So it wraps us up in just as much confusion as his character.

29:17Michael Phillips:8.30 tomorrow evening, ma 'am. That's what I suggest. Will you be here too? I guess so. I usually am. Same chair, same perfume, same anklet. I wonder if I know what you mean. I wonder if you wonder. And that's what's so alluring about it is because we want to spend every moment with her, but we don't know what's going to happen or what's going to happen to us as a result of that. Yeah. I guess my other sort of A-list, almost noir heyday, but kind of early on, I don't even know it's technically noir. You tell me. Hitchcock's Shadow of a Doubt. Oh, for sure. It is. Yeah. Completely. Very much so, because it's just this malignant force into bucolic Americana and the seismic explosion that happens with this odd presence that comes into things.

30:01Michael Phillips:Yeah, for folks who haven't seen it, this is set in Santa Rosa, California, a real place that I shot up there. Teresa Wright, who I love anyway, always have, plays this really sharp-witted, delightful sort of young woman whose favorite uncle, kind of an elusive wandering soul. She thinks Uncle Charlie, played by Joseph Cotton, is coming for a visit, and she's thrilled. And the problem being that he's also the merry widow murderer. Oh, Charlie. Well? You think you know something, don't you? That young fellow told you something. Jack? Why should he know anything about you? Now look, Charlie. Something's come between us.

30:42Michael Phillips:I don't want that to happen. Why? we're old friends more than that we're like twins you said so yourself don't touch me Uncle Charlie so he's a serial killer and she has to kind of like deal with the discovery of that and the knowledge of that long before the rest of her some incredulous family does and this was scripted by Thornton Wilder it's been described as our town with a killer in it and it is fantastic and I mean the scene if you don't think it's noir fine but just rewatch it and check the scene where she has to slowly reenter her house up the stairs to the front stoop at night laughter inside very comforting kind of cozy home environment and she's just learned the truth about her uncle You realize what it'll mean if they get me?

31:40Michael Phillips:The electric chair Charlie's got to help me I count on you. You said yourself we're no ordinary uncle and niece, no matter what I've done. You go in. I'll be in the minute.

31:57Michael Phillips:Where's Charlie? She's outside. Don't worry about her. What was the matter with her? Oh, she said she was a little edgy. I persuaded her to go for a little walk. That's the kind of moment that I didn't know. As a teenager, I had seen Psycho, the birds, north by northwest. But then to come across something that is very different like Shadow of the Out, where it really is character-based and even plenty dramatic, but really more about the young woman's point of view is so kind of like acutely observed and beautifully acted, you know? Yeah. Noir all the way, I think. And it's because it catches you off guard.

32:29It's so normal sort of for a Hitchcock movie. His movie's just always usually larger than life, and this is very much of life. And so to have this character come in, you're just as excited as she is. Plus it's Joseph Cotton, who's a delight, typically in films he's usually the good guy and so to have things turned on its head in such a way we fill things with her and like you said that scene where she's changed and she has to reenter her life and it's never going to work it's never going to fit the way that it did before yeah no

32:58Michael Phillips:that's right that that felt like i mean i just felt something happen watching that as a kid you know i remember thinking this is how is she going to get out of that which is a great concrete piece of evidence that the film is working like crazy. Yeah, I'm so glad.

33:18Michael Phillips:I think maybe it's just a matter of when a relatively new artistic and commercial medium like film, when it turns 100 or a few decades before that, people in charge of funding greenlighting movies just look to the past constantly. So we've had cycle after cycle of neo-noir, right? Oh, yeah. Of like a different kind of revisionist, however you want to phrase it. But that's really the first stuff I saw. Yeah, same here. When I think about all the stuff in the 70s, a lot of it good, you know, but a lot of it, you know, not. But some of these, since from the 70s onward, are worth talking about. Give me an example for you.

33:56Oh, yeah. So the film I always go back to, I mean, talk about callbacks to the 70s, film made in the mid-late 90s, Quentin Tarantino's Jackie Brown. I mean, right there, it stars Pam Greer and Robert Forster, two big stars in the 70s that had their heyday then. And I think one of the gifts that Tarantino has given us is he's brought back some of those classic actors. He dragged them into the 90s, and we're still getting to enjoy them today. You know, Harvey Keitel, John Travolta, debatably. and Pam Greer stars as a flight attendant you know a woman of a certain age who supplements her income smuggling drugs into the country and it's how she gets caught she gets ensnared with both the cops and the criminals she works for so she leans on her alliance with a local bail bondsman to extricate herself from all situations but it's nice because she's very much in control you know typically it's the man that has the gun the woman is the prize and for Jackie Brown like she is her own prize.

34:51She's just trying to fight for her freedom and independence. And a man would be nice, but it's not really essential. And it's just pure fun and adventure. Now, sooner or later, they're going to get around to offering me a plea deal. And you know that.

35:05Michael Phillips:That's why you came here to kill me. Come over here to kill you. It's okay. Now, I forgive you. Now, let's say if I tell on you, I walk. If I don't, I go to jail. I want$100 ,000 in an escrow account in my name if I'm convicted up to a year or put on probation. Now, if I have to do more than a year, you pay another$100 ,000. If I can do it. With that crime, you know, Elmore Leonard, based on a book of his. So, again, it plays homage to the more contemporary 70s lineage as well as classic noir. but it still has all the 90s accoutrements of, you know, hip-hop culture and things like that. Yeah, it's good to remember that it was based on an Elmore Letter novel, and, you know, people probably know that, but I'd like to think that's probably why that's easily one of my favorite Tarantino films.

36:01It just had the narrative machinery working at the right pace,

36:05Michael Phillips:even if it was pretty freely adapted and expanded a bit. It's not a short film, but it feels like the people matter, you know? And it's wonderful to see those two. Yeah. Oh, and you actually, you get to know them a bit too, which I think a lot of movies forget you've got to do. We have a, there's enough scenes where we just get to watch them be humans and have conversations and you really develop an affinity for them. And just taking the time to do that makes all the difference. And whether you're going to pick it up and watch it again, 30 years later. Right, right. Tarantino, obviously a huge fan of noir.

36:36Michael Phillips:I would say the same with the Coen brothers, just based on their rap sheet, Miller's Crossing, among others. Certainly an homage to Dashiell Hammond and many others. The one I would pick is in there, still one of my favorites of theirs, Fargo. Again, it's neo-noir, kind of like Nordic noir, but it's like Minnesota Nordic. Very different vibe. Yeah, and I've always looked at that film as kind of, in the best possible way, Jewish revenge on Lutheran Minnesota, just in terms of the accents, you know. And I love the whole story about how William H. Macy, after he got F really worked hard to get that role of Jerry Lundegaard, the world's least trustworthy car salesman, also not a good husband.

37:19Michael Phillips:He refused to do the dialect because he was told, OK, well, here's the dialect coach. I'm not going to, I can't. And then he read the script again, which he liked. And it's like, okay, well, there's no way. I literally can't not do the dialogue because of the way certain words like G's keep coming up or whatever. And anyway, that gives it a certain tang. Jerry Lundegaard. All right, Jerry, you got the phone to yourself? Well, yeah. You know who this is? Well, yeah, I got an idea. Circumstances have changed, Jerry. Well, what do you mean? Things have changed. Circumstances, Jerry, beyond the acts of God.

37:54Michael Phillips:Force majeure. What the? Blood has been shed, Jerry. What the heck do you mean? Three people in Brainerd. Oh, geez. That's right, and we need more money. I don't think we go back to Fargo, and I know a lot of people who see it fairly often in their lives, we don't go back to it for the plot, really. No. No, we go back to it because... The plot's hard to follow still when you're paying attention. They don't care. The Coens don't care about that. They don't. I swear to God they don't. And they only care that it's just enough. It's the Howard Hawks dictum of like, eh, enough. It's enough. And we'll make it a little complicated to make people think there's something going on that they should be following.

38:37Michael Phillips:But it's really more about how do we just keep writing scenes where we have a certain kind of detective we probably haven't seen before, our officer of the law, Francis McDormand, as Marge. and just kind of keep those scenes important so that there is a feeling of a lot more than just a neo-noir goof going on. It looks right, too. I mean, you couldn't film it anywhere else. And the confusingness is part of the lineage. There's that famous story related to The Big Sleep when the scriptwriters, they were tearing their hair out because they were looking at the Raymond Chandler book and thinking, okay, who killed the butler?

39:19Wait a minute. And so they called up Raymond Chandler, you know, probably drunk. And it's just like, hey, who did this? And Raymond Chandler's response was, I don't know. You know, I just threw that in there. So it's even back to then, it's just, it's like you said, it's a detective of a certain style and the aura. It's enough to hang your hat on, enough momentum to keep the scenes going. And you're there to live in the scenes with those characters.

39:41Michael Phillips:Maybe it's just a liberal weenie in me, but the whole appeal for Fargo, I guess, in relation to this, all you need is a girl and a gun or a gun and a girl, depending on the order of appearance. I like that Marge pulls her gun. I don't think she ever fires it. No, women don't need to do that. They just figure it out and work it out. But that's a less dramatic way to solve conflict. Ah. Yeah. They figure it out, they work it out, and then they go home and do the laundry. Right. Real world. Yeah. Well, and it's got to get done. Right, right. Then she's got a kid on the way anyway. So, yeah. That's my other favorite line reading.

40:17Michael Phillips:And there's a whole thing about like, you see something down there, chief? You know, when she's bending that. Nope. No, I just think I'm going to barf, you know. Jeez. You okay, Margie? Yeah, I'm fine. It's just morning sickness. That's what we remember. I don't, you don't remember. Oh, yeah. And then this happened in the plot. Yeah. You know. Oh, no. I just picture William Macy going out the window or, I mean, the wood chipper thing, that's just taken on a life of its own. That's just mentioned as either the punchline or a meme or a joke. Like that aspect has gone and lived on on its own. Yeah.

40:51Michael Phillips:All I need is a girl and a wood chipper. Yeah, yeah. Just carry it around.

41:00Michael Phillips:So that's film noir. There's a lot more in the world and there's a lot more in the movie world too. And I like the phrase so much, just sex and danger. That is why we go to the movies, you know, not only but largely. I have a problem now, and it's not just advancing age. I have a problem with recreational gun slaughter on screen. And I have since I remember taking a couple of months off, my first couple of months off since going to school. got a job right away out of college, review, you know, writing, editing. And the last film I saw before taking this two-month kind of like hiatus was Cobra, starring Sylvester Stallone.

41:48Michael Phillips:Oh, yeah. As like a dirty, hairy type. Society is breeding a new kind of criminal. It's also breeding a new kind of cop. Meet Cobra. He does the job nobody wants. And it put me in a mood that I haven't really ever gotten out of. Because it was everything I didn't like in the culture and in a certain kind of cop movie. Did you use unnecessary deadly force? I used everything I had. You know you have an attitude problem? Yeah, but it's just a little. Because it wasn't just copaganda. It was worse. And I guess I have, that's part of why I struggle a little bit with treating the whole, even this innocent-sounding axiom, you know, like, this is what we want, you know, this is what the public wants, a girl on a gun.

42:37Michael Phillips:It's like, yeah, yeah, damn it, that's probably true. So, you know what I mean? But there's other ways to look at it beyond film noir, of course, but I wonder if there's any kind of examples that kind of roll around in your head. Oh, I think the James Bond franchise is a huge one, literally licensed to kill the women. It's like, who's going to be the Bond girl? It's this whole formula and setup that we all know, whether you watch the films or not, you still know what the formula is going to be. Who are you? My name is Pussy Galore. I must be dreaming. I thought I'd wake up dead. Tranquilize again.

43:11Michael Phillips:No catcher. I see. Ah, I'm delighted to be here. And the women are, I mean, different movies, obviously, I need to give a little credit, treat the women with more or less substance. But by and large, they're window dressing. They're very interchangeable. That's the nature of the franchise. eyes and so that i think is that gun and a girl phrase at its most reductivist sort of you know adolescent boy like this is gonna be great this is all i want and no complications everything gets solved at the end you get to fly around a little and it's definitely sort of a gateway into the marvel universe too with how otherworldly it can be with what's achievable by one man with his wits and a little bit of muscle and a gun.

43:55Michael Phillips:Right. Oh, Walter, by the way. Right, yeah. I don't love much of what David Mamet is writing and saying these days, but one thing he did say years ago that I love, and I love a lot of his essays and his plays. Yeah, same here. Do you? Yeah. Yeah. Hey, speaking of which, Homicide, fantastic neo-noir, I think. Oh, don't get me started, or maybe yes. No, get me started. Yeah. I haven't seen that in years. I've got to see that again. Oh, my God. Well, he solves the mystery by going to the library. I mean, come on. Like, that's... Okay with me. Can't get any better than that. But Mamet once wrote something about that.

44:30Michael Phillips:He says, you know, the funny thing is that James Bond goes through his life just impressing everybody with his gun, and Hugh Hefner goes through his life impressing everybody with his bathrobe. And of the two, Hefner is the non-fictional one. It just doesn't seem possible. But yeah, Bond, mixed blessing. You know, I was, as a former adolescent boy, I remember thinking, you know, this is made for me at this age, and yet I don't like it. Yeah. I like some of the, I like a lot of the Bond, though, because I like Connery. I prefer Connery. Yeah. And I like some of the Daniel Craig's, especially the first Casino Royale is good.

45:08Yeah, for sure. But again, it goes into the Batman thing of, oh, it's James Bond, but now he's sad. Or now he's got, like, one more scene of exposition to explain why he is who he is. But what's always disappointing about the James Bond movies is nothing is surprising. I mean, maybe the details are surprising or, oh, this one's in the jungle. This one's in Switzerland. But you always kind of know the beats. And I think for a lot of people, they want to go to the movies for that surefire, predictable escapism. But I think if one gravitates towards the noir realm, James Bond is sort of the anti that.

45:40You have this reassurance of knowing he's always going to get out of it at the end. Even if he dies, he'll somehow come back. So there's that suspension of reality to an extent that it doesn't give the audience a lot of credit.

45:52Michael Phillips:Yeah. As much as some other types of films.

46:09Michael Phillips:There's always a reason to make more memories with your favorite people. Travel through August 2027 and start planning your getaway today at AppleVacations.com or with your trusted travel advisor. Apple Vacations, where your story starts. Hey, this is Kevin. This is Joe. And this is Nick from Hey Jonas. You know, I recently learned that every 36 minutes, another child in the U.S. is diagnosed with cancer. Think about that for a second. Some of the bravest warriors you'll ever meet aren't professional athletes or superheroes. They're kids in this fight. And every day, these young warriors face challenges most adults couldn't imagine.

46:45Yet they continue to show up with incredible courage, determination, and hope. That's why we're proud to support Hyundai Hope on Wheels. For the past 28 years, with support from Hyundai, their dealers, and every new Hyundai sold, Hope on Wheels has contributed over$300 million to childhood cancer research, helping save more than 40 ,000 kids.

47:03Michael Phillips:But we're not done yet. We need your help. Together, let's bring every warrior home. Join the fight to end childhood cancer at HyundaiWarriors.com or ask about Hope on Wheels at your local Hyundai dealer.

47:37Michael Phillips:New episodes every Thursday, wherever you get your podcasts.

48:07That's healthy optimism. That's Optum. Visit Optum.com to learn more.

48:14Michael Phillips:Rachel, we talked about the Coens and Fargo. I know there's another Coen Brothers movie that seems to kind of stick in your craw in a way that's probably their best regarded film ever and also the only one that won Best Picture. Yeah, I mean, this might be a controversial take because I know this is a really beloved film by a lot of folks. and I totally understand why, but for me, No Country for Old Men really set a precedent that's gone awry in the sense that to me, it's a very superficial film. There's not a crazy amount of character development. It feels like it's a set of Edward Hopper set pieces where it looks great.

48:48It feels great. You get the sense that you're watching this really hip, important film, and the Javier Bardem villain is so, like a little cartoonish. The Woody Harrelson character is a little cartoonish. And Josh Brolin doesn't have a lot of motivation. Again, it's this, there's women in the film, but they don't really have much to do or say. And it's folks running through these crimey feeling set pieces. And I feel like that's kind of set off a trend of, to various degrees of success or failure, this modern Western prototype where it's men play reacting these old roles in a type of modern American West that doesn't really have any place for cowboys or that type of thing anymore.

49:30And that can be done really well. Like Taylor Sheridan's films, you know, like Hell or High Water, which really I think is a lot more poignant than No Country for Old Men. There's still that same sort of older character, you know, like the Tommy Lee Jones figure in No Country. Jeff Bridges serves a similar role in Hell or High Water. But that movie, I feel like there's a little more zhuzh to it. And there's that, you understand why they're robbing a bank you understand why they're in the desperate situation that they're in and there's more of a comment on the way society's going and i think with a lot of his films set in because he did the yellowstone right yeah yeah when he sticks to the present i think those movies are maybe a little too grim for people's tastes and so he's found more success with going back but and that i think speaks to that more sort of miserablism trend of things like mayor of east town where if it's a woman-driven society it's just a lot of like burden and baggage you know the men are either off in jail or they're addicted to drugs or they're out being silly or not contributing to the household.

50:26And the women have to solve the murders, do the laundry, pick up the kids, take care of their parents. And they just do not have the time to mess around with gunplay and fantasy and going on the run. They have to hold down the fort. And that, I think, is the level of noir that we're in now. It's very much based in the real and the contemporary. So sadly, it's not nearly as like stylish or fun.

50:49Michael Phillips:Right. Yeah. But it has its all. I mean, people really seized on Mare of Easttown, which I like. I didn't love, but I did like how even the resolution, again, never why I get hooked by any noir or noir. I never really, it's never really the plot. But to the extent it is, even the plot keeps it very close to home. You know, it's closer to home than you realize. I think that started off with The Wire. You know, I think that gave people a real taste for, oh, real life can be dynamic and interesting and filled with danger, yet the conditions that make this whole pervasive crime spree or aura of crime happen, it's based in politics and corruption and lack of good journalism.

51:34It speaks to the decay of modern America. I think it started off with The Wire and we're still in this realm, obviously, because of what's going on politically, et cetera. This is like the post-Noir era, at least for me, is how I see it. Neo-noir has become a style that if people are making it now, it's an homage to.

51:51Michael Phillips:Yeah, and I think in the case of something like Sin City, yes. Oh, for sure. Seizing on neo-noir, and yet I just think that movie is airless and kind of offensive, actually. It's like the video gamification of things, where again, there's like a suspension of danger because these aren't real people, so they can't be killed. Right. There's no sadness to it. And everyone's a little, it's like, but it goes back to the Dick Tracy thing, too. It's like this cartoonish version of these archetypes. But the women are, you know, overly sexualized. The men are overly masculine, too. It's this, like, everything's on steroids a bit.

52:23Yeah. Beefing up.

52:24Michael Phillips:I know you're angry, baby. And I forgive you for that without you even asking me to. There's a difference between getting honked off and a guy who's generally not so bad. Him. Finding out that you've been sweet-talked by a total jerk loser who skips out on a wife that he doesn't even tell you about every time he gets drunk, which is way too often. But to weigh, like you said, it's airless because it's just no fun. It's a bit nasty. Right, right. And the black and white-isizing of everything, which is an odd trend that folks are doing. That Nightmare Alley got re-released in black and white. And that Spider Noir.

52:56Michael Phillips:Yeah, yeah. Which I have to admit, I have not seen. I hear it's good, though. Same thing. I'm holding judgment. Because if Nick Cage is in it, again, an unpredictable element that is very much welcome. Yeah. I do love some of the film noir. Just to go back to the actual film noir phase for just a bit. I do love some of the ones that absolutely push the audience tolerance for what they're going to put up with with their main always male protagonist. Kiss Me Deadly, again, you know, kind of a legendary late film noir, completely apocalyptic, nihilistic to Mickey Spillane, Mike Hammer outing. This is where Tarantino got the idea for The Glowing Box and Pulp Fiction, of course.

53:39Michael Phillips:And I mean, that film, Robert Alderson's film is just out of its mind. And it goes, it's so relentlessly blackhearted and mean-spirited and kind of just so coldly compelling. Big flop at the time. But it says something about where we were and what we were kind of like prepping for for the future. I mean, nowadays, I think the heartlessness of that character is everywhere. Yeah, that's a good point. Yeah. That reminds me, it's like a third-hand quote, but like our continued fascination with these types of outside-the-law figures or folks in organized crime, George Carlin's appreciation for those films, he said, it's the most honest form of American capitalism.

54:24And so that's, TJ English is the credit on that quote. He was telling it to them, but that has stayed in my brain ever since I've heard it, that it's sort of the heart of what this country is actually all about. And so it's one of those things, even if we don't articulate it that way, we know it when we see it. But we're also seeing the terrifying results of when we're on the other side of that, when we're on the receiving end of these guys' misdeeds. Yeah.

54:47Michael Phillips:If you bring up the price of groceries, I really, we have to cut it. I think because we can't get political here. Okay. So we've come to the point now in this episode of the movie racket, where we're going to reveal, if you don't know it yet, reveal who actually said what the public wants is a gun and a girl. it's not Godard. He quoted it a lot. It's not Howard Hawks, which makes sense, but, you know, but no, it actually goes back to sometime in the 1920s, early 20s, D.W. Griffith told an interviewer after a series of disappointments in his career, after the massive popularity of the most toxic blockbuster ever released in America, then and now, The Birth of a Nation, followed by the much more interesting film Intolerance, which did not find the audience that The Birth of a Nation did.

55:45Michael Phillips:But Griffith was kind of struggling for a while there. You know, many, many good films, Orphans of the Storm, Way Down East, all beautiful in many ways. And Lillian Gish is fantastic whenever she's on screen in his films. But by 22, apparently, he was despairing. And he was telling an interviewer, This is secondhand now. We don't have like a first confirmable thing, but he said at one point, I foresee no possibility of venturing into themes showing a closer view of reality for a long time to come. This is D.W. Griffith saying this. The public itself will not have it. What the public wants is a gun and a girl.

56:29Michael Phillips:And we don't know how he said it, the tone or whatever, but to me, the words sound kind of like we're stuck with it. We're already stuck with it. The medium wasn't even, was just barely a generation old. And this was at the time he made a film called One Exciting Night, which was a kind of a comic thriller, an old dark house thriller. And there's a reason nobody watches One Exciting Night today because it wasn't. And it wasn't Griffith's thing, but it was his idea of selling out, which didn't work. But Rachel, when I learned the probable origin of this quote, it surprised me because it went back that far.

57:11Michael Phillips:And it does sort of get at, it may be more sympathetic to Griffith, I think, just in that he was already kind of thinking, well, I can't, this is it. The movies are just not going to put up with much above that or beyond that. I don't know. What's your feeling about that when you hear? Oh, it's funny just saying this now, hearing it for, you know, however many times, on this podcast, but it's making me think, I think maybe there's a little bit of envy in Griffith saying that because he couldn't make movies like that, that were simple and effective and to the point. He always had to sort of color outside the lines and, you know, take up whatever space he was given.

57:48But to sort of go back to my original thought when I heard this quote and knowing that he said it was, you know, A, not much has changed, but also So he intended it as an insult and a sort of, oh, kids today, this is all that the masses want. And now I think it's become either we've come down so far or just our sensibilities have so inverted that now I think that that's something this medium aspires to. That level of great storytelling and simplicity of two men, one woman and a gun. And if we can just get back to that, if we can get away from the corporate production management style of movies, the algorithms, the superheroes, the action adventure spectacles, what the public wants is a gun and a girl.

58:36To go back to that sounds thrilling. And it sounds like an ideal rather than an insult.

58:41Michael Phillips:Yeah, that's intriguing. It surprises me a little, I guess, to hear that. To me, it feels like a double-edged sword, though. You know, in that, I guess if you just take it literally rather than, I like putting it like sex in danger because especially in this country where we've, I think historically and certainly even now when anything goes and you can watch anything anywhere that your kids probably shouldn't, they can watch it too. But we're so free and easy with violence and we're so nervous about our children. That's a very good point. Repressed. And yes, as a parent, I, you know, I agree. sexualizing children before the time is a hideous, I think, look the other way kind of impulse.

59:25Michael Phillips:But I think we're really always neglecting the cost of what it means to watch thousands and thousands of fictional deaths by the time you're 10 or 15, whether it's gaming, whether it's old movies, whether it's new films, but especially new films. Well, I think that's what we were alluding to with thinking about the James Bond franchise or other forms of sort of cartoonizing or like you said, depersonalizing violence, if it goes back to just one gun, typically just the threat of it is enough to galvanize a story and is enough to send people off running in really interesting directions. And so I think in a way, if we use that as like a North Star to aspire to of making sure that that girl matters, then that gun's going to matter all the more.

1:00:13Or also too, you don't need the man. So let's see where that goes.

1:00:17Michael Phillips:Yeah. Yeah. No, I mean, I think it's time. They've had their day. Oh, yeah. Yeah. We're good. Rachel, it was such a kick to see all those hundreds of people looking at Dog Day Afternoon, a film I showed some students a couple years ago down to the University of Illinois. And, man, that plays so beautifully now, 51 years later. And you've written a book about it, which has been out for a few months and still selling well. So tell me about it. Yes, it's Born to Lose, I call it the misfits who made Dog Day Afternoon. And it goes into not only the making of the film with, you know, really a high watermark of New Hollywood, directed by Sidney Lumet, starring Al Pacino and John Cazale, who are fresh off of Godfather 2.

1:00:59And also the debut performance of Chris Sarandon, who was nominated for an Oscar for that. And I spoke to him for the book. So he gave me tons of stories and insights. And so the book really goes into how the movie came together. But in addition, it also goes back and talks about the real life crime story that inspired it that occurred three years earlier. And for me, what was fascinating and why I thought, okay, I've got to make this a book is learning how when the film debuted in late 1975, and it was such a big hit, it really influenced all of the people related to the real bank robbery it depicts.

1:01:34The main guy in jail, his family, everyone related, you know, that was still working at the bank, everyone was touched by the success of that film. And so the book also traces what happened to everyone, fact and fiction, so to speak. And it's just, I said it to myself, like, just do not mess up telling this story. It's going to be a good read. So whether I'm a great writer, that's a different question. But the book is, it's a really interesting story. And it's available anywhere books are sold. Your local bookstore can order it in if they don't carry it. Also available online. And otherwise, I write pretty regularly for the Film Noir Foundation's quarterly magazine, Noir City.

1:02:11Michael Phillips:Yeah, it's really slick. Very beautiful. Oh, thank you. But yeah, everyone can get print-on-demand versions via Amazon or donate to them and you get a digital copy. I've got a survey coming out of Sam Fuller's history in tabloid journalism and how that influenced his worldview. So that's the next feature I've got coming up. Yeah, and other than that, I'm sticking pretty close to Instagram. That's the best way to keep track of what I'm up to. It's at rwalth, R-W-A-L-T-H. It's the best way to find me these days. Excellent. Thanks for your time, Rachel. I really appreciate you coming on today. Thank you for having me.

1:02:51Michael Phillips:After we talked, I thought about what Rachel Walther said about film noir being so indebted to the pure beauty of things like hats, women's and men's, and clothes, and all those shadows, and all that beautiful artificial fog. If the gun and the girl phrase did come from D.W. Griffith, the context suggests a pretty dim view of what he thought the public wanted more than 100 years ago and what it still wants today because, as Rachel put it, when will sex in danger ever go out of style? And why should it? I mean, those are two good reasons to get up in the morning. By the early 1920s, Griffith was struggling to regain his foothold with the American public after the overwhelming success and lingering, scarring after-effects of his film The Birth of a Nation, which narratively completely adhered to the gun and girl ethos in Griffith's cinematically striking, morally appalling depiction of the Confederates and the Klan as the Civil War's good guys, the might and right of the white in a story hinging on female virginity under assault.

1:04:06Michael Phillips:Our country is so gun crazy now and its basic democratic principles so blatantly in the process of a rewrite that the rest of the world is watching us like we are a movie. A movie about a country that has fallen into the hands of bad men. Maybe the girl in the gun formula, exemplified by the film noir classics, remains popular because it's an embrace of this reckless, violent world, but with better clothes and snappier dialogue if we are lucky enough to be in double indemnity land. And in the end, the laws of the land and the laws of the jungle drawl off together arm in arm.

1:04:51Michael Phillips:The Movie Racket is produced by Joe Dessau and Michael Phillips, and I am the latter. Executive producers, the guys behind the guys, are Adam Kempinar and Sam Van Halgren. Special thanks to Rachel Walther, whose book, Born to Lose, about the stories of the people who inspired and made Dog Day Afternoon, is widely available. Check out Walther's work at rachelwalther.com, where you can catch episodes of her bi-weekly insights on movies old and new, on I Want You to Know, hosted by Nero Nava, on KPCR Radio. Until next time, folks, I'm Michael Phillips, and this is a Film Spotting production.

1:05:36Michael Phillips:Is it Walther? Yes. Walther. Like the gun. Didn't know that. James Bond. Carry the Walter. Really? Yeah, that's the gun he uses. Walter PPK. 7.65 mil with a delivery like a brick through a plate glass window. takes a Broush silencer with very little reduction in muzzle velocity. I didn't get any of that gun money, though. Well, I think... I think we have to bring this up. Oh, yeah, I suppose so. 007, sir. Just leave the Beretta.

1:06:14Michael Phillips:Honey, Felipe sent another photo. From Argentina? How? With T-Mobile, of course. Mira, he's video calling us. Hola, familia. Did you get my photos? We did. They're so pretty. Here to share every moment with T-Mobile, enjoy data roaming at no extra charge in 21 Latin American countries. Switch now on the T-Life app or T-Mobile.com slash connectate. While a fine plan required not for extended international use, you must reach out in the U.S. and primary usage must occur in our network. Visit T-Mobile.com. Some people use ChatGPT to answer questions. Others use it to get real work done. With ChatGPT Work, you bring the goal.

1:06:50Michael Phillips:plus real inputs like briefs, notes, files, feedback, data, and project plans. It can help turn them into an analysis, tracker, deck outline, prototype, or workflow you can review and keep shaping. You stay in control, giving direction and choosing the final output. Put ChatGPT to work on your most ambitious ideas and projects. Get started at ChatGPT.com by selecting Work Mode. Available on Plus and Pro plans. M &M's popped caramel do sound different. Oh, no. People are going to be obsessed. What do you mean? People hate the sound of chewing. Maybe they won't like the crunch. Maybe we're saved.

1:07:28Michael Phillips:Wait a minute. Yellow. Huh? Have you been eating them this whole time? Mmm, so tasty. Hands off us. M &M's Popped Caramel. It's more fun together. A flawless makeup look starts with the right foundation shade. Sounds simple, right? But finding your perfect match can honestly be one of the hardest parts of your routine. But there is good news. Sephora has all the best brands in one place, with so many shades, finishes, and coverage options to choose from. Plus, their beauty advisors, shade matching tools, and free samples make it so much easier to find the one that's just right for you. Visit Sephora and find your match.

1:08:12you