Avengers: Endgame | Archive

16:06Adam Kempenaar:right. I wanted to ask you a question about the concept of fan service, because there were various points throughout this movie where I was thinking about that as an idea and how franchises and films deal with it or don't. I think we'll probably get into some of the particulars maybe in spoilers versus here. So I'm going to be pretty vague about it. But and I say this as just a fact, I'm not trying to be pretentious. I'm admitting to being a total idiot. But I think honestly, the first time I heard the phrase fan service, at least applied to a film, was sitting across from you during a review.

16:42Adam Kempenaar:I just don't aggressively follow enough franchises or the discourse around them to be regularly thinking about that idea. And it was a negative review. I don't remember whether it was an MCU film or it could have been, it seems like one of hundreds of options at this point. But the idea was, and the idea behind fan service as a negative thing, is that I suppose if you're too determined to serve the fans, presumably the hardcore fans, then you're throwing in elements that take away from good storytelling, whether it's world building or character development, whatever it might be. those personal elements, maybe just appealing to less sophisticated instincts, if you will.

17:21Adam Kempenaar:My thought, and I throw it back to you, Josh, is Endgame the proper example of fan service in the way it seems to recognize and acknowledge how this film and this franchise as a whole fits into the landscape of popular culture. And by fitting, I mean, has kind of dominated the landscape of popular culture. But those acknowledgements for me were more gratifying than gratuitous. I think they're rooted in what we respond to and appreciate, again, about these characters and these stories. So yes, this film is fan-serving in precisely the way I have to think anyone who's been on this journey is expecting.

18:00Adam Kempenaar:And I want to be clear, we all do have different favorite MCU films and characters and moments. There's not one sort of monolithic fan response. But if you've stuck with this series, my feeling is it's more because of your attachment to these characters. So watching this film indulge that attachment without compromising the material, that's good fan service.

18:23Josh Larsen:Well, is it fair to say that at this point, the MCU has registered the concept of fan service moot because out of the sheer size and cultural impact of it, And it has, and I'm going to say forced us all, even though I've largely enjoyed these films, forced us all to become fans. So anything it does, to your point, is at this point fan service. And I don't know if that's because it struck a nice balance or because we've all succumbed. And I, for the most part, enjoyed succumbing to it. And that allows me to, to get to a specific that doesn't give anything away, to really appreciate a moment here in Endgame that I think is meaningless unless you remember the exact moment it's referencing in Captain America Winter Soldier.

19:10Josh Larsen:It's one of my favorite action scenes in the entire franchise, the elevator showdown with Cap and a bunch of bad guys. There's a sequence here that explicitly calls back on that. And it's not even a reference. it needs your knowledge of how that scene played out to appreciate how this one does because if you don't have that you will be utterly confused what was the whole point of those couple of moments i won't get into the details why but in the past i would have said that's the sort of fan service that's distracting because it required that knowledge but i've been beaten into submission

19:44Adam Kempenaar:and now i like it yeah and it's because of how well they do it i think and i suppose the reverence with which they handle it, but also that we do have that investment. And as you said, for the most part, we both were talking about this right before we sat down to record. And we're going to do a little bit of feedback maybe in our poll segment a little bit later. There's maybe this sense that we're MCU haters, or at least I'm an MCU hater. And I looked at my letterboxd ratings and my MCU ranking of the 20 films that I've seen. Well, now 21 out of the 22 still have not seen Thor The Dark World. and now I don't need to.

20:21Adam Kempenaar:No, you've got it. It's all been played out for me. But I've given positive reviews to 13 of those 20, now 14 of 21. And even a couple of those seven that are maybe in that negative column are mixed. They were close to positive reviews. So overall, I'm a fan of this franchise and this film, Endgame, only heightened that fandom.

20:43Josh Larsen:Yeah, now let me deflate that a little bit because before I sound too positive, There are some things that are holding me back. Most I'll get to in spoilers, but one may be worth bringing up now. I think it's fair to say and safe to say that this does involve a battle sequence. It's gigantic. I mean, we're talking Lord of the Rings level. Yeah. And I appreciate those battle sequences. So it's not merely a matter of size or scale, but I do think that this one, as many of the MCU battle sequences suffer from, just gets too chaotic, too blurry, too much going on. And also it's too repetitive of what we saw in Infinity War.

21:27Josh Larsen:No, I agree. And that is also tied to the fact that there's not a lot of great action in Endgame. It was also a critique I had of Infinity War, that there was more action. There were more action scenes in that movie. None of them really stood out here. There are very few action scenes. There's one involving a character, and I'm not going to say who at this point, but it's a sword fight. and the russo brothers try to do some you know single take movements that add a little dynamism to it yes but there's other than that it's not a standout sequence like they've been able to do in something like winter soldier or or captain america civil war so i still miss that element here i mean these are these are like what how much of their identity should be action films essentially a fair amount right i don't know that we get a ton of great action here no we definitely

22:21Adam Kempenaar:don't. And I'll go back to that moment. You talked about this sequence with the long take. It really does stand out as a sort of Bravura camera moment. But at the same time, it doesn't really work with the moment we're watching because it turns it into something grandiose and actually something almost magical when it's actually, yeah, when it's actually sort of a terrible moment for that character. So I think it in a way doesn't really serve that moment or that character at all. I I agree with everything you said about the action here, except ultimately, I still appreciated the fact that there was so little action.

22:55Adam Kempenaar:The spectacle of the end didn't really work for me, but it also had enough moments that were pleasing to me that the redundancy of it, the chaos of it didn't bother me as much as it did with other films. And overall, it gets back to what I was saying about the personal stakes of this film. I guess I want my MCU movies to be like a Noel Coward play or something. But the more the characters were talking to each other, the better this film was to me. So the fact that we only get a few bits of action here and there, and then we do get the finale, which it does seem appropriate for this film and this chapter of the MCU.

23:32Adam Kempenaar:I just couldn't quibble with it too much. And overall, I guess like the restraint of not going for too many action set pieces.

23:38Josh Larsen:It's going to be interesting, speaking of fan service, to see how the audience reaction is to this three-hour film that doesn't have a lot of action. You know, how much general audiences are expecting that and want that to be part of their MCU films. Because you're right, very little of it here, but I would agree those interpersonal scenes are among the highlights. So it sounds like we're maybe at a good stopping point.

24:00Adam Kempenaar:Yeah. We recommend, both of us, it sounds like, Avengers Endgame. I would say so. We will stop there. For the people listening on the radio, if you do ultimately want to hear some of our spoiler thoughts on this film, you can find the full version of this show at filmspotting.net or wherever you get your podcasts. For our podcast listeners, we're going to cue a little bit of music here and come back with spoiler thoughts. Do not listen if you haven't seen Avengers Endgame. Before we're done, we still have one promise to keep.

24:32Josh Larsen:if he can't protect the earth he can be damn sure we'll avenge you

24:37Adam Kempenaar:so as promised wanted to share some thoughts and reactions to avengers endgame without worrying about ruining it for anyone who might actually be listening to this discussion before they saw the movie now you've had a chance to see it and you're probably wondering whether or not we're going to touch on all the questions and moments that stood out for you. Josh, is there any place in particular you want to start?

25:01Josh Larsen:Yeah, because my favorite thing about the movie I can't really talk about, and it's the time travel element, which they at once have fun with and make fun of, but really double down on. Totally. And maybe we can talk about whether or not that works for you as much as it needs to in any time travel movie. I thought they handled the balance really well. And what it did allow for is that sequence, that extended section where they're revisiting old MCU movies. I love that. I thought it was the highlight. What it did for me is the MCU has always had a sense of humor about superheroes. Okay. That's one of its distinguishing characteristics.

25:38Josh Larsen:It knew how to be light on its feet. It knew how to suggest that some of this might be a little silly, but let's play along anyway. I've appreciated that. This is the first time I think that the MCU has had a sense of humor about its own massive scale. Yeah. And the fact that it is this behemoth that we are all carrying, trying to carry. It's almost like just when this thing was about to eat its own tail, it found a way to relieve the pressure. Yeah. And revisiting those movies with the characters as they jump back in time to find the Infinity Stones as they're placed in different, seeing some of those films from different camera angles, watch the characters, watch each other.

26:18Josh Larsen:it was really delightful i thought very clever well handled fit within the larger narrative maybe some sequences worked better than others we can talk about um but that was a new sense of humor to the whole thing that that again i thought really it almost saved it right when it was

26:35Adam Kempenaar:becoming too much for itself yeah i got very nervous i agree with you that it ultimately was delightful but when we set off on that portion of the film knowing what we're in for i was having flashbacks to Infinity War and how overall the Russo brothers did a good job jamming in all those different characters and storylines, but it felt like it was overstuffed to me. And we didn't get enough of that time just to hang out with these characters. And when we start going off to different times and different places, and again, you know how many of them are ahead. You know, you have to try to round up six different Infinity Stones and they're all going to have different obstacles in their way.

27:13Adam Kempenaar:I got nervous, but overall, I think it was handled pretty deathly. And I think the humor, that's not something I thought about at all, but you're right. I think the way it took moments that in other films were undoubtedly these incredibly intense or serious moments, right, where everything is heightened because it's all life or death. And now we get to observe someone else being an observer of a lot of these moments. And that somehow deflates them in a way that still managed to make the overall objective of their mission suspenseful.

27:46Josh Larsen:Well, and it just mirrors our experience with the franchise. It's how we think about that movie. Remember when we thought that was so important that this was the end of the world? And here it's and the movie knows that. And it's kind of we're all able to kind of laugh together at this extended journey we've been on without being completely without it ever like satirizing itself or really lampooning itself. It's just recognizing its sheer size and scale. Yeah, no, you're right. It is.

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29:16Adam Kempenaar:Meet Stanley. In the new season of The Plot Thickens, created in partnership with Criterion, TCM host Ben Mankiewicz traces Stanley Kubrick's journey from a curious Bronx teenager, first inspired by a camera gifted to him by his father, to a revolutionary filmmaker who rewrote the rules of filmmaking. Across his career, Kubrick pushed boundaries, challenged censorship, and pursued an uncompromising level of creative control that shaped landmark films, including Lolita, 2001 A Space Odyssey, The Shining, and Eyes Wide Shut.

29:45Josh Larsen:This season features a never-before-heard audio interview with Kubrick himself, giving listeners the rare opportunity to hear Kubrick's own voice as he discusses directing actors, independent filmmaking, football, and even his beloved pets, offering an intimate, first-hand portrait of one of cinema's most influential and famously private filmmakers. Go behind the camera with Kubrick's closest friends and collaborators, including Katerina Kubrick, Steven Spielberg, Sofia Coppola, Matthew Modine, Josh Safdie, George Miller, Phil Rosenthal, Michael Bauman, Lee Unkrich, and longtime Kubrick collaborator, James Harris.

30:22Josh Larsen:The plot thickens, Stanley. Available now wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, it's Ashanti Plummer from Foot Around and Find Out. Coming out of the draft, it's been a special time for us here at Foot Around. I want to thank everyone from the fans to the sponsors, especially Geico, not just for supporting AZ, but for showing up where it matters, like the business of Women's Sports Summit. That kind of thing really moves the needle. And now that AZ is starting a new life in Dallas, we don't know what next season is going to bring, but we know that we're all on the same team. And it's been amazing to feel the love and support.

30:57Josh Larsen:So keep showing up for our girl. Show up for each other. Thanks to Geico and our listeners.

31:04Adam Kempenaar:John Deere is putting in work and putting up highlights. Oh man, look at those passes. Tillage, planting, harvesting. Three years in and these pre-owned machines are still at the top of their game. We're talking reliability, performance and long-term potential. And get this, these veteran machines can pick up the latest precision tech with ease. You know it and fans ready to add John Deere certified pre-owned equipment and more options to their lineup can shop at machinefinder.com. Booyah! I think for me, maybe the single best moment in the film, besides the great Paul Rudd reaction to Hemsworth's story.

31:41Adam Kempenaar:Which I want to revisit. Yeah. It's because he loves it. Oh, he loves it. That's the great thing. Everyone else is like, what's this dude talking about? He's just, he's got that wide eye. He's the one person sitting in Dark World eating it up. It's true, right? Because he's been in this quantum realm and has no idea what anyone's talking about. So he's all in on this story. But there's another great moment. and it's not a great moment actually i shouldn't use that word because that's not it and yet i appreciated it so much it's when tilda swinton shows back up oh yeah and what is she the sorcerer supreme yeah i think that's right that's her title she even she says that at one point thank you and there's a moment where she is given some information this is spoiler so i can say it bruce the hulk tells her that dr strange let it happen let yeah gave up the infinity stuff right Basically, stop fighting, allowed that snap to happen.

32:31Adam Kempenaar:And when she learns that, there's a pause on screen before responding to that information for what seems like 30 seconds. It might only be three seconds, but it's just such a good Tilda Swinton moment where she just holds the screen, just holds our attention. We don't get a witty or kind of all-knowing rejoinder at all. It's just a genuine reckoning with what she learned. And only Tilda Swinton, I think, would make that choice in that moment.

32:56Josh Larsen:Sure, sure. And it's also a clever balancing act of the time travel element, right? Because she and Banner are talking about different strains of time at that point, and it could easily be taken too seriously or not seriously enough. And she gives it that weight, that importance, and it's crucial that she changes her mind because it doesn't matter if this logically makes sense or scientifically makes sense. As Banner says, the science doesn't support that. what matters is this character we know as having extensive wisdom realizing doesn't she say something like i might have been wrong and changes the trajectory of things yeah it's a nice moment

33:34Adam Kempenaar:yeah it is now some other moments that stood out to me that maybe fall into that category of fan service but i like them and this is going to the very end of the film the line that robert downey jr has at the end of the film i am iron man that's a good moment yeah thor chopping off the head of Thanos and actually acknowledging that he went for the heart instead of the head. I mean, I hear my kids make jokes about that because it's a meme. Everybody knows it. Now, again, I blame Peter Quill for Thanos getting away with it, not Thor. But this movie, again, I think this is where it sort of fits into, it acknowledges that that's part of the discourse around the film, right?

34:15Adam Kempenaar:And to not acknowledge it would be silly. But at the same time, it's not just them winking at us, it makes sense that Thor would have that guilt and he would have guilt specifically over that choice. So I think it's fan service, but ultimately ties back to serving the character and serving this larger story, because it totally makes sense that he would have that remorse. And this whole series has been about these characters having to make those kinds of choices. As we said, one other moment that stood out to me is one in that end battle. And it's all kind of a blur, even though we just walked out of the movie about two hours ago.

34:48Adam Kempenaar:is it Captain Marvel who is about to go in to attack Thanos and a character says, maybe Wanda, Elizabeth Olsen says, it's okay, she's got help. And we get this shot, the camera pulls back and goes wide and we see about eight or nine women from this series all supporting each other. Now again, maybe that's just one of those moments that's carefully crafted to get a huge cheer out of a large section of the audience. But you know what? It works. It really works. And one of the reasons it works, or I would say the reason it works isn't because, oh, look at the Russo brothers giving a nod to female empowerment.

35:23Adam Kempenaar:It's because over the course of these films, we've come to love these characters. They're badass characters and them combining forces to be badass women together. It's a pretty thrilling moment.

35:34Josh Larsen:It is. And it's also nicely handled in that it's it's this unbroken take that allows the whole group to form together. I mean, aesthetically, it's just well handled also. So we have to talk about the deaths and the goodbyes and how each of those registered. I'm not ready for it, Jeff. Well, let's start with Natasha, Black Widow. And a surprise to me, sort of a periphery character on this series, even though she gets a lot of screen time. Part of that, I think, is the fact that she doesn't have superhero powers. I think this would have been more affecting to me but I was kind of caught up in the debate she was having with Hawkeye at the time this takes us back to the Soul Stone mountain where someone must be sacrificed in order to get the Soul Stone and the whole Hawkeye narrative that was the character we talked about in the main review who's doing sword fighting and the sword fight yeah because he's at the opening we see him lose his family then he becomes this vigilante just killing criminals at will and here now he's back with the team and he and Black Widow are in search of the Soul Stone, and they start fighting over who's going to jump off the cliff.

36:41Josh Larsen:Just the motivations were all over the place there.

36:43Adam Kempenaar:So that moment, Josh, when they say to each other, we know the choice that has to be made, and then Hawkeye makes the joke, it seems like we might actually have different thoughts on that. You're saying it wasn't clear, as clear to the characters. It's not even the clarity.

36:58Josh Larsen:For me, it's why would Hawkeye, who is on the reason for this mission is to restore his family. The loss of his family is what sent him into this tailspin. Why now would he make this sacrificial act, which would separate him from his family? It would bring his family back, I suppose. So he's doing it for them in a way. Yes, he's sacrificing for them. I just, the characters were not given the amount of time or space or narrative for that moment to play well, especially when it's a repeat of the Thanos Gamora moment, which I thought was one of the better handled ones in Infinity War.

37:33Adam Kempenaar:He definitely was. Now, in the screenplay, they try to explain it. His willingness to jump isn't just that he's sacrificing for his family, but he has a line where he says, basically, I should go ahead and be punished for my sins. Yes. That I've been this bad character. But I agree with you that that is asking that one fight scene thought to do a lot of heavy lifting for us to believe that he actually should be the one to go. And in fact, I'd love to poll people. I imagine that every single person watching that film would say, no, actually, she's the one that should probably go. You're the one with the family.

38:10Adam Kempenaar:It seems set up for that. Actually, only now does it occur to me. I was very curious as they were going to go off to their different destinations. And they said, we're going to split up in three different teams or whatever. And I was thinking, how are they going to divide it up? I can't wait to see who goes with who. And maybe we can piece together what choices were made. And we probably can, based on what we see play out, understand precisely why. But how about the fact that the two total mortals, the people with really no powers whatsoever, Hawkeye and Black Widow, get sent off to space together?

38:42Adam Kempenaar:There's no Thor around. There's no gods to be found. Nobody with any superhuman strength. Just those two. Doesn't seem fair. On a mountain in space.

38:51Josh Larsen:They do make a joke about it, saying something how the spaceship has been automatically programmed. So as long as they just sit there, but it kind of exposes exactly what you're talking about. So Tony Stark, goodbye. Goodbye, Tony. Goodbye, Tony. Surprised by that as well. I think a lot of the buzz was that Captain America was going to be the one who goes down in battle, at least. You know, that moment, it was affecting. I think this movie is also, however, asking us, it's asking a lot of work to be done that we're going to follow him from being willing to die at the very opening or not willing to die.

39:26Josh Larsen:But when we see him abandoned in space, accepting of his fate, then he goes to five years later where he has a child with Pepper Potts and they have this new life together. And he sort of found the thing he never could find pre-Thanos. and they spend a lot of time on that and really make us believe that he's found something he values and then to have him be the make the sacrificial choice at the end i guess you could say well that should only make it more impactful yes but i can't say i entirely bought it or maybe it's pepper's reaction you know when when she's it's back to when they're in the house and he says how I figured it out.

40:06Josh Larsen:I figured the time travel thing out. And she's all on board. She's like, well, you have to do this. And I'm thinking, wait a minute now. This has always been a point of tension between the two of you. You've created this life together. And now all of a sudden,

40:19Adam Kempenaar:it's like, yeah, go do it again. I didn't have that same reaction. I feel like that character, we're meant to understand that she understands Tony better than he knows himself. Yeah, that's true. And she has accepted her fate in a way in that moment and knows that Tony can't be Tony if he's not saving the world. And I'm sure, at least I'm willing to believe that she's, of course, thinking about the larger ramifications, too, and what it means for lots of other people who may not be suffering. So I didn't mind at all how that played out or that choice. And in fact, in the end, I thought that choice to have it be Robert Downey Jr., to have it be Iron Man who finishes it all off, who makes that fateful decision to close this chapter, it only makes sense he was the guy who started it.

40:59Adam Kempenaar:Yeah, it's a nice bookend. Not only is it a bookend, but I also think, and it's mentioned or referenced in this movie, the idea that he brings it up when he's still pissed at Captain America about how he's the one who wanted the shield. You know, he wanted to just keep everybody safe. In some ways, that has been what has defined him as this kind of whatever it takes at all costs. I've made the decision to save humanity and I'm going to do it. And so for him to be the one at the end, it seemed poetic to me.

41:26Josh Larsen:Yeah, that makes sense. And it's also Also, it is something of a large character arc where he starts as this incredibly selfish guy and is the one who's going to ultimately give up himself for everyone else. I loved how Captain America went out. Yeah. Absolutely loved it. Because it's something unique, surprising, and to watch a character in this realm of superheroism, gods, space heroes, whatever, embrace mortality was incredibly bittersweet. To make that choice at the end to say, I'm going to age. Because it's partly so that he can reunite with the woman he lost, who he loved, and have that life with her.

42:09Josh Larsen:So I get that motivation. But I also think there's just this underlying thing of admitting you're human and seeing the value of that and the inevitability of death that these movies in some ways are all about pushing past. No one can die. No one can be killed. Even when they are in the last chapter, they can be resurrected. We have these gods who live thousands of years. There's a finality to it. You're right. There is a finality. There's an acceptance. And it's a different finality than Iron Man's finality, which is a common thread in superhero books is the sacrificial act. It's definitely final.

42:45Josh Larsen:But this is a different choice being made here by Captain America that's just really affecting and poignant.

42:53Adam Kempenaar:Yeah, I agree. And to understand it completely, as I think I do, let's just go ahead and spell it out. What happens is, in a blink of an eye for us and his fellow Avengers, he goes back to place the Infinity Stones into their timelines to restore order to those timelines. So things play out as they should, as Bruce promised the Sorcerer Supreme. At some point, presumably after doing that and restoring order, Cap decided, I'm also going to take advantage of this and go back to his original era and meet up with the love of his life, played by... Haley Atwell. Yeah. Peggy Carter. Exactly.

43:33Josh Larsen:Yeah. As far as I understood it, he just jumped out earlier so that he could live a full life with her. Exactly what point I think the final images in the movie are of them embracing. And outside the house, we see cars that suggest maybe the 40s, 50s. So this leads to the question I wanted to ask. How did the time travel work for you? Yeah. On the level of, like, were there more of these questions enough to distract you? Or was there sort of lighthearted handling of it while at the same time the entire movie generates on it? Was that a good balance? Because for me, I didn't get tripped up. No.

44:10Josh Larsen:And something like this, as we're talking about it now, yeah, I'm not sure exactly where did he go back to. But the overall point was that they found a way to go back in time. He found a way to manipulate it and jump out before returning as he did before, which allowed him to age. And that's the question. Did he show up? Like, did he come back out of that time travel thing they had? Or was he just there? I think he was just there. As an old guy. I think he was just there as an old guy. Who somehow knew they would be doing that. Exactly. Yeah. So, see, this is where, like, we're already peeling open the can of worms a little too far.

44:43Josh Larsen:than I felt was necessary during the film. And for me, that's all that matters. I agree with you. Is if I'm opening that can while I'm watching it, it's because the choices that were made and the way it's been presented is not coherent enough. Yes. For me in the film, and it helps a lot that they make fun of themselves every once in a while about this, some great Back to the Future jokes and so on. In the course of the film, I was not distracted by it.

45:06Adam Kempenaar:No, I wasn't either. Yeah, totally worked for me. And as we're talking about Captain America, I will point out another moment, the second funniest moment in the film. the best line in the film is definitely Captain America fighting himself. And him saying, I could do this all day. He goes, yeah, I know. You know, it's just the perfect delivery. Because it works for everyone who finds Captain America insufferable. Exactly. That's a good way to put it. Now, I will also mention that as we're talking about the personal stakes of everything, and this goes back to our Infinity War discussion, where if I remember correctly, and I just had a moment to glance at my notes, I was a little bit mixed on Thanos.

45:41Adam Kempenaar:That was the setup for the conversation. We had just come off of Black Panther and we're talking about how great Killmonger was as an MCU villain. It was Thanos a step forward or a step back. And I remember feeling at the time, and I don't know if it was different here or not, but it wasn't a distraction to me here. I felt like there was a little too much of an Uncanny Valley thing where that line between CGI and realism was, it was always teetering for me. And I was distracted by Thanos more than anything. But what I liked about Thanos was that, of course, they gave him an investment. They gave him a reason for why he's doing the things he's doing.

46:11Adam Kempenaar:And even though, of course, we are completely opposed to them and think he's diabolical, we understand what he is trying to accomplish the same way we understand what Killmonger is trying to accomplish and the injustices he is trying to make up for. they do find a way with Thanos here even I would say at the end of the movie to hold that over or to transfer it to this film where he's not just the bad guy which of course he is and they even see him you can tell how they all because they've all been reckoning with their loss the first time getting a chance to meet him again it it of course becomes even more heightened I guess what I'm trying to get at is that in that moment where he acknowledges that actually he made a bad choice the first time.

46:56Adam Kempenaar:He's learning from this process, and he's going to just apply a new lesson to this and take another course of action. I'm not saying it's more sympathetic. It's not. But I suppose what I'm getting at is there's at least a little bit of closure to Thanos as well, and him having to come to terms with his actions.

47:17Josh Larsen:It's an interesting wrinkle. I think I wouldn't say either that his motivation in Infinity War is sympathetic, but you do understand it in the way you're talking about. Here, the decision does make him a little bit more of just the monster, and it's a little more about ego. You get the sense that it's because his plan failed he's going to do this more than he believes in a righteous cause. See, I'm seeing a little less of that, I guess. But I do think it's an interesting idea, going back to the grieving we notice, is that his vision was things would be beautiful without half the population, and he didn't account at all for mourning.

47:52Josh Larsen:And so by wiping that very human element out, he thinks he'll solve the problem. So that is an interesting wrinkle there. It leads me to a spoiler question I wanted to ask you, and it has to do with the Infinity Gauntlet. I've never quite understood how this works. And when Iron Man wields it and snaps his fingers, only the bad guys vaporize. So is this thing like, is it whatever you wish you get?

48:15Adam Kempenaar:Is that what it is? And I was thinking about like, however these Infinity Stones came together, how someone realized that the magic to unlock them was snapping your fingers is kind of hilarious too. Because they all have to do that to make it work. But at least according to this film, it does suggest that, because of course, I was thinking about this after Infinity War, and I'm sure others were as well. It suggests that basically, yeah, what you wish for. Okay. It is a wish. It seems like it. It's a wish machine. As long as you think very specifically and wish very specifically, you will get that thing.

48:46Adam Kempenaar:All right. Just wondering if there's more to it, but apparently not. So in terms of one aspect of the film that didn't really work for me that we can touch on in spoilers, Captain Marvel. Oh, because I think it's just a little bit too convenient. And I don't think they would even argue with us. It's the Russo brothers or anyone involved in the making of this film. Even they would have to acknowledge that when you have someone who has the power that Captain Marvel has, her ability to almost single handedly solve any problem or battle any foe, even though we do see Thanos, you know, beats her up a little bit.

49:23Adam Kempenaar:But her abilities are so over the top that the movie has to get rid of her. She obviously would have been so useful in so many of these scenarios. And the movie says, well, we're going to give her her line where she explains that this is happening all over the universe and this is who she is. And it was set up by the last movie. And she's going to go out and try to fight some of these battles everywhere else. But the notion and I know I'm asking about realism, I suppose, in an Avengers movie, but the notion that she would run off and she manages to only show up precisely at the moment where they need her again is a nice screenwriting trick.

49:58Josh Larsen:It's the same problem Infinity War had with Black Panther and I think still has with Black Panther here in Endgame that these are two really beloved characters that get sidelined by the massive scale of this thing. And, yeah, you get that line about, well, she's off doing this stuff in other corners of the universe. But when they finally embark on the time travel mission, you're like, OK, at this point, why is she not back here? Yeah. I mean, this is like what what they're about to do will render whatever she's doing now. Exactly. Exactly. So that's yeah, there there should have been more Captain Marvel and they could have handled it when she does show up to fight.

50:35Josh Larsen:You know, this has been an issue in all of the MCU films. There's always a character who seems to be the most powerful. And then something else happens where they're mitigated in some way.

50:45Adam Kempenaar:And I've always had an issue with that. Yeah. And that is another character.

50:48Josh Larsen:It happens to her in the final battle, you know, where Thanos does manage to fend her off in certain ways. So they could have incorporated her. I think that would have been a better move.

50:57Adam Kempenaar:Yeah, I did really like, as we touched on Tony Stark and Robert Downey Jr. a little bit, those different father-son, father-child moments that we get. He gets an amazing gift as a character, right? Getting to actually go back and have that encounter with his father. And then we get to see that mirrored in him, not only interacting with his own child, but interacting with what is kind of his surrogate son in Peter Parker. And there's real poignancy, I think, in that symmetry.

51:21Josh Larsen:Yeah, I don't think the scenes with his father play out. I get what they're going for and it works thematically. But the fact that all of that would happen between Howard Stark and some guy who's rummaging around the basement of the military base, that's a bit of a stretch. Thor, though, Thor gets a nice one. RDJ sells it, I think. They sell it. And Thor gets a nice one with his mother as well. Yes, exactly. Where it's, in this case, it's a reunion. It's another resurrection in a way. And I think that's a really nicely handled scene. It's an example of where Thor is not just the funny man in this movie.

51:54Josh Larsen:I mean, primarily, he gets to play a lot of comedy, but also gets a sequence like that, which really works.

52:05Josh Larsen:that was our review from april 2019 if you'd like to support the show by joining the film spotting family you can easily do that at filmspottingfamily.com this conversation

52:16Adam Kempenaar:can serve no purpose anymore goodbye

52:29Josh Larsen:Hey, it's Ashanti Plummer from Futter Round and Find Out. Coming out of the draft, it's been a special time for us here at Futter Round. I want to thank everyone from the fans to the sponsors, especially Geico. Not just for supporting AZ, but for showing up where it matters, like the Business of Women's Sports Summit. That kind of thing really moves the needle. And now that AZ is starting a new life in Dallas, we don't know what next season is going to bring. But we know that we're all on the same team. And it's been amazing to feel the love and support. So keep showing up for our girl. Show up for each other.

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