Back to the Future Review (40th Anniv.), Deliver Me From Nowhere, Blue Moon, A House of Dynamite

29:21And this is the big chase scene where Marty makes the makeshift skateboard Biff and his buddies are following him. Basically it vents the skateboard in that moment. Pretty much it vents the skateboard. Exactly. Yeah. Hanging onto the back of the pickup truck and Zemeckis frames the camera here moving alongside Marty through the window of the diner. So essentially the camera's moving along the diner counter from right to left as the truck out the window is doing it and the camera comes to a stop right on Lorraine's face. He's as Marty has left the screen. She turns to the frame and says, yeah, he's an absolute dream.

30:00He's an absolute dream. I mean, that's, that's cinema magic there. And it's pop iconic in a way, right? It is. And I'm, and I'm so glad you mentioned that moment too, because I didn't want us to move on before I got a chance to say that that chase scene too, it couldn't be more opposite in terms of its scale from something like the Indiana Jones movies we were enjoying at the time as well. Think about Raiders of the Lost Ark. But watching it again this time, watching Marty on the road being chased by Biff and his thugs on that skateboard with that Alan Silvestri score, which has little hints, little remnants of the Raiders score in it.

30:49It to to us as kids that age, it actually feels as big and as grand and as important as as Raiders of the Lost Ark. The stakes of that are as high in that chase scene as that's how invested we are in Marty. And in some ways they're more personal, right? In some ways they're more personal because of the Lorraine element. Exactly. Yeah. So that scene, I was really like, wait a second. Why do I feel like I'm watching Indiana Jones in this scene? This is incredible. I really felt it. And Dean Cundey, we should say, since we've been talking about a lot of the camera work, the cinematographer here working with Zemeckis.

31:28Yeah, absolutely. Now, I'm going to bring up the thing that, of course, I certainly never thought about back in the 80s because I was not processing back in the 80s to what extent during that decade, Josh, we truly were actually living our parents' decade. through pop culture, the 80s were actually more like the 50s. And we can only look back on that and realize it now. Back to the Future was part of a wave of films that were doing this, that were looking back to the past. And our culture, politically, it wasn't just our pop culture that was doing it. And we're going to talk about Blue Moon in a bit.

32:09And in that movie, you'll hear Lorenz Hart say, and I may not be getting the quote exactly right, But he says there's nothing wrong with Oklahoma other than the fact that it's nostalgic for a time in America that never existed. And I thought, wow, every time coincidence spotting comes through because whether whether it affects how you feel about the movie or certainly how you feel about Back to the Future is entertainment. I think we at least have to talk critically about the fact that Back to the Future, like so many 80s movies, appears to be nostalgic for a time in America that never existed, which is problematic when the dominant political statement of that period was make America great again, which it was under Reagan.

32:51And Doc himself says in that moment, that funny moment, the actor, like he's president. But that was the case. Like Reagan was all about just trying to revert back to the 50s. Let's go back to this fantasy version of American life, these apparent glory days where we'll overlook things like racism and sexism and economic inequality and whatever, pollution. We can go on down the line. And it was the juxtaposition here again never paid attention to these things really before. But the way Hill Valley is depicted in the future. Yes. Let's even look at things like, of course, the family things. Lorraine drinking vodka at dinner, just straight up drinking vodka at dinner.

33:35And the fact that the family lives in a crap hole of a neighborhood, it seems. But the town square itself is pretty dilapidated. Garbage, graffiti. It does not look like a good graffiti, all this stuff. And Josh, I don't know if you noticed, did you see what movie is playing on the marquee? Oh yeah, porno. It's orgy American style. There is porn and it says triple X. Like apparently Hill Valley is Norman Rockwell by way of Travis Bickle. You know, like what is going on here? And one of the parts in this bad version of Hill Valley, which is the present version, Goldie Wilson is the mayor. Goldie Wilson's the mayor and he's because he's supposed to be reelected.

34:20So apparently, even though in the past, it's like a triumphant thing that Goldie is going to be mayor. He's apparently not doing a very good job because Hill Valley seems to kind of suck. And when he goes when he goes back to the past, what's the past? The past is indeed, as the slogan of Hill Valley says, a nice place to live. It's idyllic with with Ronald Reagan up on the screen and Barbara Stanwyck on the marquee and Mr. Sandman is playing and there's green grass and there's blue skies. And, you know, if the other part to this, of course, that if you really want to extend this line of thinking, if you were one of those people that ever made a joke about Seb and La La Land being really, really into jazz for whatever reason that that was something you made a joke about, you have to be just apoplectic about the suggestion that Marty invented rock and roll, right, in this film.

35:13It's rough. So, yeah, and it does, just to conclude this, the movie does what a lot of movies of this period and even movies from now do that go back and look at historical moments from the past and extend this kind of fantasy version is there are examples of chauvinism. There are examples of racism, but what they do is they encapsulate it all in obviously evil characters like Biff and his thugs. So it makes it seem like it's easy to overcome. We know who the easily identifiable evil people are. So we can all as viewers go, oh, OK, well, we feel superior to them. And it really wasn't about any larger systemic things.

35:57It was just a few bad apples. Yeah, I think it's the what you're describing is it makes it feel like the movie is gesturing towards those concerns, right? Yes. And maybe not fully invested in them or taking them seriously. I had similar thoughts watching it. And yeah, the Mayor Goldie thing was kind of a real red flag. Like Goldie, played by Donald Fulilove, who we meet in 1955, says, I'm going to be the first black mayor, right, when he's working at the diner. And yeah, what does that mean that they represent, as you said, his mayoral stretch is coinciding with this dilapidated version of the town?

36:41That's not great. I do think that while it's not thoughtfully and fully considered, the inclusion of things like racism or chauvinism or even the fact that rape was a real thing in 1955, I think that does puncture the make America great again sensibility that is partly at the heart of Back to the Future. I think overall, um, that's a correct reading that it's looking back to the past as so much as the eighties did in a way that yes, never existed, but in our minds, in some people's minds does. I was glad to see that it was at least complicated by the fact that, you know, Lorraine is, is really almost physically assaulted and that this was something that women had to deal with that.

37:28It wasn't just, you know, everyone courting peacefully and marrying and having babies. And so I think there's a little complicating of it, but overall, it is something that held me back on this rewatch. I think the Johnny B. Good thing is just terrible. I mean, to me, that's the black eye of Back to the Future, because at first I'm trying to give this movie as much credit as I could. And I'm thinking, OK, maybe this is so glaring what's happening here, especially to our eyes in 2025. Is it possible that even in 85, they were thinking of this as a bit of meta commentary on white appropriation? Like, could the people involved have been smart enough to say, we're going to make this so ridiculous by the performance that Marty gives doing the Johnny B.

38:13Goode song that we're kind of winking at how ridiculous it is. But when they use the punchline of Marvin Barry, who's the leader of the band, calling his cousin Chuck and holding the phone out, that's when I was like, okay, no, they just think this is funny and it's not great. Not a great choice. Yeah. Yeah. And no, I take your point. But again, just to just to make sure I'm clear, I think the the issue for me is that throwing a nod to sexism by depicting a scene like that. by doing it through Biff and making it seem like it's a one-off. It's a one-off through an obviously despicable, almost cartoonishly despicable character, while otherwise not depicting any kind of inequality between men and women otherwise.

39:00It makes it seem like 1955 was perfect other than one bad guy. And that was the problem is depicting that past as if it was, as if there was truly this perfect time in America, which of course, and that we need to revert back to it. Yeah, that's what I mean by made it a gesture. It fulfilled that vision, unfortunately, that so many films of the 80s ultimately did. It fit right into that scheme. I was certainly aware of that as I watched the film this time. The effects in the film, not something that certainly derailed the movie for me. I remember watching it early on and thinking, how did they pull off the moment where Marty gets blown back by the speaker as practically as they did?

39:53However, they pull that off is so effective. And then you mentioned the iconography of the flames, though that's a fairly bad optical effect looking back on it now, right? When the fire goes under their legs. You can tell there are some shots where there are actual flames, and then you can tell there are others where they've had to gussy it up. Yeah, though, you know, it is this is one of those things not I'm really not trying to go back to the previous point. It's more just how sometimes movies from the 80s, when we look back on them now, things that we just take for granted, things that never occurred to us then seem kind of insane to us now.

40:32Now, back in 1955, make no bones about it, Biff tried to rape Lorraine in a car in the parking lot of the high school. Yeah, that's what I'm saying. Okay, but listen, and in the future, he's hanging around the house. He's in a subservient role to George, but he's still just hanging around the house. Yeah, I don't think I'd want him there either. I think I'd rather just be done with Biff. It just is so crazy that that that that occurred. And we're just like, yeah, now we're all just laughing about the fact that he's waxing the car. So let's let's talk some more about Lorraine, because I do want to you know, this is a performance I've hailed on the show.

41:17I think top five mother son relationship movies I had at number one and just endlessly amused at how Leah Thompson is so brazen in this role. just how instantly aggressively horny she makes Lorraine when Marty's in her bedroom and look in words and gestures. Do you mind if I sit here? And again, going back to this mind-blowing concept, it's not just the possibility that maybe your mom was a sexually active teen. Maybe she was one of the most sexually active teens. This is what the Thompson performance digs into. And it's also a very, like Michael J. Fox, a very physically comic performance. When she sees Marty show up at school, how she throws herself back against her locker.

42:04And the whole, I went on at length in our top five scenes in Cars about the sequence with Lorraine and Marty at the dance in the car. It was my number one pick. And Thompson here just transitioning from comedy to tenderness, that expression on her face when she realizes the kiss doesn't quite feel right i mean this this is just again one of those gems of i think every main performance in this movie is a gem and this one is still my favorite i think i know exactly what you mean you do you know what i do in those situations what i don't worry

42:58This is all wrong. I don't know what it is. But when I kiss you, it's like I'm kissing my brother. I guess that doesn't make any sense, does it? Believe me, it makes perfect sense. it may not be quite as strong because of the artistic element and that being so crucial to marty and and that male bond i think ends up being a little bit more important he spends more time with george but there has to be a symmetry right he has to discover something he has to see something in his mother to your point about recognizing that she's a person too that she She was someone before she was his mother and that she was someone contrary to his vision of her.

43:48Early in the film, early in the film, she's the one talking about how you have to behave a certain way. You have to be a prude, essentially, with boys and then come to find out she's exactly the opposite of that. Right. So the fact that we get that that depth and we get that additional layer and that symmetry with the with the characters is a really nice touch with the screenplay. And just in terms of fun moments, too, satisfying screenplay and visual payoffs, the, of course, the punch, the McFly punch of this. Oh, yeah.

44:35the way the camera just lingers on the two of them as she takes him in in that moment is extremely satisfying yeah yeah it's a nice touch um just to quickly touch on the other performances Christopher Lloyd here. What I appreciated this time, just how he plays Doc's excitement and mania first and the comedy of the moment second. You know, you could think of so many actors who would just go for the jokes because almost everything Doc says is funny. I love the, thank God I've still got my hair, his reaction to see the video from 1985. I don't know if anyone else in the world would want that hair, but he's happy he still has it.

45:15But yeah, overall, Doc is playing the character first and the comedy second. And then Crispin Glover, just a living, breathing, apologetic shrug. Just incredible. And a real person, too. Yes, yes. Both wonderful performances. And my wife was watching it with me. And Sarah said, and I've heard a little bit of this over the years, but she said she just saw something recently about Crispin Glover saying that he kind of renounces this performance. or something. I don't know if you've seen that, which I don't know, not that it matters, but what a shame if that's true, because he is so good. He's so good in this role.

45:54Anything you want to add or have we done the talk? I feel like we did it justice. Yeah, it was a really, it was a more fun revisit than I even could have imagined. I think that fun element is what popped out at me, perhaps because I've been taking it too seriously in recent years that it was it was good to just sit with it as a movie ride sure and and for me a little bit of the opposite still had the fun got to take it a little bit more seriously than i ever had before back to the future is back in theaters this weekend take it in on the big screen if you can including some imax screens it's also available vod on most platforms i'm sure you've got a Betamax copy somewhere, VHS, Laserdisc, maybe.

46:40If you've seen it and agree or disagree with our takes, we would love to hear from you. Feedback at filmspotting.net, and we may share some of that feedback on a future show. We're talking about seeing Back to the Future back on the big screen. You can see it in IMAX. You can see it in 4DX at Regal Cinemas right now. Coming soon at Regal, Die My Love, the new one from Lynn Ramsey. Christie, I'll talk about that a little bit next week, starring Sidney Sweeney. One we're probably not going to review, but would be good to see on the big screen. Predator, Badlands, you've got Nuremberg coming very soon.

47:19And hey, if Blue Moon doesn't give you your Ethan Hawke fix, maybe you haven't seen it yet, Black Phone 2, now playing at Regal Cinemas. And you can see any of those movies for free with Regal Unlimited, the all-you-can-watch movie subscription pass that pays for itself in just two visits right now. Regal is offering our listeners endless movies for less. All you have to do is sign up using code film spot 25 to get 10 % off a three month subscription. Regal unlimited is the only truly limitless movie subscription pass. You can see any standard 2d movie anytime, no blackout dates or restrictions.

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48:33You can personalize your workouts and train with confidence, helping you reach your goals in less time. Let yourself run, lift, sculpt, push, and go. Explore the new Peloton Cross Training Tread Plus at OnePeloton.com. Well, listening is the number one thing you can do to support an independently produced show like Film Spotting. There are a couple of other things you could do to help us out. Just take a minute to give us a rating or a review on either Apple Podcasts or Spotify. You could do it in both places. and maybe you're a new listener, please leave those first impressions. If you've been listening to us for 20 years, we'd love to get your thoughts as well.

49:09Every new review we get does help us reach new listeners. Now, the most substantial way to support us, however, is to take that step and join the Film Spotting family. And you can do that at filmspottingfamily.com. We want to thank advisory board member, Andy Bucati from Kansas City. We know Andy because as an advisory board member, he gets to join for those quarterly meetings that we have with the advisory board. If you are on Letterboxd and you'd like to follow Andy, you can find him A-B-U-K-A-T-Y. Andy is basically our boss. That's what that means. That's kind of how it works when you're at the advisory board level.

49:48Yeah, that's right. Andy writes that he found the show during the pandemic via an Apple podcast recommendation based on other movie podcasts I was listening to at the time. There was no specific episode that kept me listening. It just quickly became apparent that this was the perfect movie podcast for me based on the host's rapport and sensibilities, obviously thoughtful preparation for every episode. How sadly rare, Andy says, and the balance of insightful and fun segments. Well, thank you, Andy. Realizing there was an archive that went back to 2006 was like revisiting Christmas morning as a six-year-old.

50:18I've been gradually going back year by year and am currently on 2011. Oh boy. A favorite review. Yeah. It's going to go downhill quick, Andy. I mean, it's going to get rocky. Josh is joining soon. Favorite reviewer segment. Two of my all-time favorite directors now are Agnes Varda and Luis Buñuel. How about that? I hadn't seen a single film of either of theirs until I followed along with and went way beyond your wonderful marathons. That's what it's all about, Josh. Yeah, I love hearing that. Well, we don't love hearing this. A review we got wrong. M. Night Shyamalan's trap. Sam knows. Sam's trap rating.

50:53Yeah. Yeah. What was it for? Did he go for on trap four stars? Yeah. See, this is one of the great things about having the three of us involved. No matter how insane your movie opinion, there's a chance one of us might share it. It's crazier. Yeah. Letterboxd top four, almost famous. My wife's and my all time favorite comfort movie. Something we share with each other when we're being uncool here, here. Moonlight, Le Bon Air, there's Varda. And yes, how about this? National Lampoon's Christmas Vacation. Andy provided wonderful recommendations or insights into these picks, but we're a little strapped for time.

51:27Sorry, Andy. A favorite movie he revisited recently. You'll appreciate this, Josh. Rear Window, still a five-star classic. Always and forever, right? All right. A random filmmaker he loves, Celine Sciamma, great choice. A movie he credits with becoming a cinephile is Jane Campion's The Piano. Man, hitting some of my all-time favorites there, Andy. Just slugging them. Just hitting him out of the park. A book about movies or movie making, Inside Oscar by Mason Wiley and Damian Bona. You know when you pour through a 1 ,000-plus page tome on the history of the Academy Awards, despite having other pressing obligations, there's probably something wrong with you and you've confirmed a passion.

52:06I unashamedly enjoyed this history lesson. We thank Andy for being an advisory board member, a longtime listener, and for going back through the archive. In addition to keeping us doing what we're doing, your support does come with perks. You get to listen early and ad-free. You get Sam's weekly newsletter. You get to be part of the FilmSpottingFamily Discord and other exclusive opportunities, like you get to listen to monthly bonus shows. That Discord is hopping with over 400 FilmSpottingFamily members. And the October bonus show, it's going to drop very soon. In fact, by the time some people hear this show, they may already have that October bonus in their feeds.

52:46As we're recording this, Josh, we have just finished taping the Tom Cruise draft with film spotting family members, Zach Cook. How do you think it went? Well, I mean, Zach gave me a lot of trouble. I came in with a plan that I thought was going to work perfectly. And then Zach appeared. Yeah. And you inflicted great pain on me. You took it out on me. I did. With one of your picks. I sent my anger elsewhere. Yeah, so I have to be mad at Zach, I think, for that. But it was great fun, and you will find it in your feed very soon. Learn more, filmspottingfamily.com. Big smile. We write together for a quarter of a century, and the first show he writes with someone else is going to be the biggest hit he ever had.

53:35Am I bitter, Larry? Yes. One new Richard Linklater movie is great news. two, I think, is even better. Nouvelle Vogue, his new film about the making of Godard's Breathless, that comes to Netflix, Josh, on November 14th. In theaters now, sadly, mostly empty ones, it seems, is Blue Moon. His ninth collaboration with Ethan Hawke, Hawke plays songwriter, lyricist Lorenz Harp, who, with Richard Rogers, wrote some of the greatest songs of the 20th century. The Lady is a Tramp, My Funny Valentine, Bewitched, Bothered, and Bewildered, hundreds more, including the song that gives the movie its title. The film's setting is March 31st, 1943, at the famous Broadway restaurant Sardi's.

54:19It's opening night of Oklahoma, exclamation point, as his character is always eager to add on. It's Richard Rodgers' first collaboration with someone other than Hart, and yes, goes on to be a massive success, the likes of which Rodgers and Hart never had. Rogers is played by the great Andrew Scott. Margaret Qualley is the Yale co-ed that the bisexual 47-year-old alcoholic heart is obsessed with. Josh, it's a link later. It's Hawk. It's Hawk monologuing about language and theater and love. It's a movie about a self-destructive artist. If there was ever an Adam movie, this would seem to be it. It checks all the boxes.

55:04I'm going to let you go first. what did you think of Blue Moon? Yeah, I think it's pretty self-evident who's going to really, really go for this one. And I did like it and who might not quite as much. I think the litmus test, if you're looking for one, if you're unsure where you are, how you felt about Ethan Hawke's Jesse in Before Sunrise, this charming, this philosophizing, but desperately needy character, I think is maybe a good bar for how you'll feel about hanging out with Hawke's Lauren's heart. I mean, they're miles apart in so many ways. Hawke's really ladled with some pretty grotesque, I think, makeup and hair work here.

55:44So he doesn't look anything like himself, but there is this strong spiritual resemblance that just hit me as soon as heart kind of walked into this bar, sat down and started monologuing, launching into these self-serving stories and does some Casablanca impressions. It's sort of imagine Jesse if he grew up older, but hadn't been challenged by Julie Delpy's Selene is how I thought about it. And so if you want to see that sort of character, he's given full reign here. This is almost literally a one-man show, and then you'll probably enjoy it. And I definitely did appreciate Hawk's performance. I mean, you can't get around the level of technical proficiency he's displaying by becoming this character and juggling all of the dialogue and the impressions, as I said, and the singing.

56:34And you can't help but be impressed by that. Now, there's another guy we didn't mention there in the setup who's in this bar, kind of tucked in the corner, trying not to be seen. And it's E.B. White. And E.B. White, I know a little bit more about E.B. White than I do the musical theater background that the movie also swims in. So maybe this is why I was drawn to him, but I was also drawn to being not the heart who comes into the bar and regales everyone, but the guy in the corner who's like, oh gosh, I hope this guy doesn't look my way. And that's what happens. And then heart kind of comes in and barges in on EB White space, EB White editor, you know, of the elements of style and also author of Charlotte's Web and Stuart Little.

57:20So I kind of felt Adam watching this a little bit like EB White hiding in the corner, hoping Hart would move on. White comes around and is very polite and inspired me to do the same and open my heart to this movie and this Hawk performance, which I think helped me appreciate it as much as I did, even though I'm going to say I'm fairly confident, not quite as much as you did. Yeah. This is one I want to put away for later. I'm not going to say too much, because it's going to come up again. We're already in the end of year swing, and it's definitely going to come up again. I do love this film, and I like the metaphor you're going with, seeing yourself as E.B.

58:08White, though I think you're being maybe a little bit disingenuous is the wrong word, but I think you're maybe being a little hard on Hart or misreading it a little bit in that E.B. White is in the corner, but he didn't put himself in the corner. He starts in the corner. That's where he is when Hart walks in. Yeah, that's the seat someone like that character would pick. That's what I'm resonating with. Yes, I get that. And you do think maybe he's going to be a little bit resistant to a character like Hart because he seems very bookish and he seems very private and he seems like maybe he just really wants to have his time.

58:46But their conversations together, they clearly are kindred spirits. And their moments— Yeah, that's the politeness and the kind— Yeah, they come to meet. And their appreciation for language and for life. They share something there in those scenes that I guess all I want to at least say to the audience listening, if they haven't seen this movie yet, is what I never sensed. And you aren't necessarily saying this, Josh, but I just at least want to get out there. What I never sensed from the white character was any exasperation. And I thought that might come through, but I didn't feel it. Yeah, I'd agree.

59:26And Patrick Kennedy, if I haven't said this yet, plays white. So good. And it's such a wonderful performance because of that. I think there's a note there at the beginning where you can tell, at least this was my impression. He would have possibly been very happy if Hart had just left and not noticed him, right? Possibly. Once they do engage, he does open up and they do make those connections you're talking about. I also think, you know, in the, the performances defense in terms of Hawk and the movie too, is that very self-aware of all of this, that it is this somewhat overbearing presence. Right.

1:00:01And that, and, and before sunrise had that self-awareness as well about Jesse. So I think that's to both movies credit is that they recognize this quality in the character. This isn't something they're not, they're not aware of. One more last white thing is I am a little insulted that they imply in that conversation that Hart's sort of drunken story about a mouse in his apartment is what inspired Stuart Little. I mean, come on. You didn't need to go that far. This bothered Sam, too. He hated it, though, only because it's cutesy. He thinks it's cutesy. It's tacky, but it verges on insulting. And I like it just it means nothing to me.

1:00:41It just I don't see the reason to be offended by it, I guess, is my is my issue with it. But because the whole movie is such an invention, it's such an artificial every aspect of it is an artificial invention. So and I actually like the I like the story he tells that leads to that. And I also like the idea. I love the idea of the way it shows how art for both of those artists, for all artists, is such a such a bit of thievery. It's always about not stealing from other artists, but from stealing from life, stealing from every interaction that you have. It's a representation of that. So I didn't mind it.

1:01:18It's not as bad as Marty McFly stealing Johnny B. Goode. I'll say, but it's, you know. And your note about Patrick Kennedy, I, watching the film, this was one I watched at home. And after about three minutes, I really did. I paused the movie, Josh, and I had to look up who he was because I didn't recognize him. but he also seemed familiar. And I was just kind of stunned by his presence. And I wouldn't have minded, honestly. And there's a vibe to this movie anyway, that reminds me of this movie I'm about to mention. And I wouldn't have minded to this entire movie, actually, as much as I loved it as is, if this was just a My Dinner with Andre, but it was E.B.

1:02:00White and Lauren's heart. Like, it could have been just their conversations the entire time. And I would have been fine with Hawk and Patrick Kennedy. So yes, going back to where this started, a Linklater film starring Hawk about an exceptionally talented musical artist, mostly talking about art. Of course, I loved it. And not just a talented musical artist, though, talking about art, but one of the great American writers almost entirely talking about language, celebrating language with every sentence, every phrase, every word. And I think that's a testament to Robert Capelo's screenplay, of course.

1:02:33and it's a testament to Hawk. Blue Moon is a lyrical showcase for Hawk whose performance is confrontational, yet tender and self-effacing. As you said, self-aware. You talked about his technical proficiency. He is so agile with those words and he has to be. I saw a quick video I'll mention online where Hawk was doing some, they were doing a post-screening Q &A, I think, or maybe it was a junket. And he was recounting a story where it was like the Friday night, the weekend before they were going to start shooting. And this is a movie that apparently Linklater has had in the works for 10 years or something.

1:03:16They've been talking about making this for a while. And here they are finally about to make it. And it's the Friday night before. And some of the other actors say something to Hawk like, hey, we're going to head off to Dublin and see this concert. Somebody's playing. We're going to go see this concert. you want to go and hawk's like yeah that sounds like fun let's yeah let's do it i'm in and link later is in earshot and he hears this and he goes over to hawk and he says you know, we start filming on Monday, and this movie is only going to be as good as you are in it. And you sure you really want to do that?

1:03:57And Hawk's like, yeah, I guess I'm not going to go. And the point there, of course, is that he's right. Linklater is right. That's the best bit of direction he probably gave him on the film. This movie is only going to be as good as Hawk is in it. And we both agree he's pretty wonderful in the film. and that's a big reason why I think it's really great. And I think there's something he's doing that makes it great, but I also think there's something that's attributable to Linklater. Two, the staging of it. For its confinement taking place entirely within Sardis, Linklater uses every part of that Sardis bar like a stage, and he does offer multiple characters, not just White, for Hart to bounce off with his ideas, but also physically, too, literally bounce off them.

1:04:48There's Bobby Cannavale behind the bar as Eddie. There's Joan Elise as Morty Rifkin behind the piano. There's Kennedy, of course. There's him nestled, as you said, in the corner. There's the people who stroll in throughout, right? Like the person who comes through with the flowers a couple of times, right? It does give it all a little bit of musicality. like it should, like feels appropriate for someone who has made their living writing lyrics for musicals. Those new characters that stroll in, it feels like they're strolling in from off the stage all of a sudden for him to add just a new dynamic.

1:05:30It shifts the dynamic of the performance and it feels like a performance. And it changes it from a solo performance, as it feels at times into these little duets that happen as he shifts his focus to the different people around the room. I always thought that your interests went more towards my interests. So now you are going to analyze me. Thank you, Dr. Bacardi. I think Jesse is a good comp. I think Hart does something even better than Jesse here. And he has to do it because even though he's got these different people to bounce off, He doesn't have someone like Selene, the force of Selene and Julie Delpy, who's who's at least an equal to bounce off of.

1:06:14Right. What Hawk does here so generously, Josh, I think. is listen. And that's notable. That's notable when you consider how much of the runtime of this film is Hawk's character talking. If you looked at the script, what do you think it is? Maybe 95%, at least 90%. He is pontifical. He is certainly didactic. But unlike most characters or most people you meet in real life who are that way, when he isn't talking, and I think this is what white latches onto. He never appears to be mindlessly waiting to jump in and say the next thing. He never seems to be just waiting to get to the next urgent thing he has to say.

1:07:02He is laser focused and that focus guides our focus as viewers. He makes that other person feel as important as he is. He is a genuine observer of human behavior. I never felt that he was a steamrolling blowhard. He moves through the space that way. He doesn't talk to people that way. And that soloist aspect, but then, as I said, turning these into duets and the way he seems to be as comfortable, if not more comfortable, when others are talking, despite his dominance of screen time, as he actually is the one speaking, that's the thing I was always drawn to. I loved watching him watch others and listen to others.

1:07:49I do have to say that was the part of the performance that did hold me back. And I realized it because I think what you're describing for me, what you recognized in some of those earlier interactions, and I do think it's there a bit in the E.B. White scenes. for me, I saw it come to full fruition and work really well with Margaret Qualley, where he becomes that fully invested listener. Now, for the reasons are complicated, why he's a listener and why she's getting that attention. But when I saw those scenes later in the film, between the two of them, I realized for me, at least like, okay, this is what was missing a little earlier is I did feel like most of the other characters were like a ping pong tables for him a little bit.

1:08:35I felt that a little bit more obviously than you. Yeah. Because for me, the ping pong aspect of it is only in the vibrancy of their ideas. But if he's not listening, you don't get the vibrancy of their ideas because the language is so potent. He has to be listening to the words they're using, the phrasing, the sharpness of their ideas is so important that if he's the only one talking, then there is nothing to bounce off of. And that's what was so important. Yeah, he'll take a phrase they use or a comment they make and riff off it in some way. And for me, that was the technical proficiency level that I did appreciate.

1:09:15it. I will also just add that I made a comment about Andrew Scott maybe being our pound for pound greatest actor right now between stage and screen. Well, he's really good here. He cedes nothing as Richard Rogers to this powerhouse performer in Ethan Hawke, but also the character Lawrence Hart. And the thing about Rogers is that he's on top of the world here. He's the big dog in this moment, right? With all of this success and heart has to be by nature of where he is at, at this moment in his life and career has to be the obsequious one. And yet while you still get that power dynamic with Rogers through Scott's performance, the thing that Scott always shows is that undercurrent of pain.

1:10:07You see that there is a wound. There's a wound in him, And this fracture in their partnership genuinely hurts him, that there is a scar that has been left by Hart in him. Yeah. And the squirming way that reveals itself, the particularities of this night, right, where Hart is in the bar and they're next door celebrating in the restaurant. And then you can see in Scott's squirming performance the pain that that's causing him, that those deeper psychological things you're talking about are coming all bubbling to the surface, right? in this moment. Yeah, he's very good here. Blue Moon currently playing in limited release.

1:10:46Sounds like you're recommending it. I'm strongly recommending it.

1:10:59Nobody but Bruce can tell stories like these.

1:11:06But I don't understand why an artist would make this record. Violent home. He's channeling something deeply personal. I ran with my heart down. The Bruce Springsteen biopic, Springsteen, Deliver Me From Nowhere, came to theaters last weekend. It's directed by Scott Cooper. He of Crazy Heart, The Pale Blue Eye, and Out of the Furnace. This stars Jeremy Allen White as Springsteen, circa the making of his stripped-down 1982 album, Nebraska. Alaska. Now, Adam, I want to get your Springsteen bona fides here. Mine will be brief. He kind of falls in that category, which I'm guessing this will horrify you, of back when we used to listen to the radio, Springsteen's song came on.

1:11:54I was glad it came on. Sure. I never bought an album, didn't make that next step, and maybe know him best. The biggest Springsteen fan I know, I think is my pastor, Raj Nelson. So I have heard many sermons involving the lyrics of Bruce Springsteen, which I've also appreciated his craft through that avenue. But yeah, not the hugest intense fan of his music beyond that. I'm guessing you've spent more time with this work. I don't know that I have, or at least too much more. I think I was like you back in the 80s. born in the USA was a juggernaut album. It was everywhere. And that song is infectious.

1:12:35And of course, as I got a little older and I started thinking about songs a little bit more intently and intellectually, I realized that there was some real depth to that song in addition to its catchiness. And that made me appreciate it even more. But all of those songs from around that time, born in the USA, I'm on fire, even glory days. I mean, any of those songs that played on the radio even Hungry Heart, you know, all those songs that were popular, I enjoyed as well. But like you, I never owned a Springsteen album until actually much later in my life when I think I bought Nebraska, when I realized that Nebraska was the one that everyone touted as probably the best Springsteen album or the one that was the most authentic, the most pure.

1:13:22And yeah, Nebraska's a masterpiece. Here's how I got into Nebraska. Actually, I can tell you because my band from college, when we got together as a band, this is now about 20 years ago, but, but after college, we, we played together somewhere and we were looking for some cover songs to play. And one of the guys brought to the band, the song Atlantic city, which is on Nebraska. And I don't know that I had heard Atlantic city at that point. I don't know how that's possible, but it wasn't a song that was familiar to me. And I not only loved playing it, I just kind of became obsessed with the song Atlantic city.

1:14:00Well, Atlantic city is, is, is from that period is from Nebraska. And that was my gateway into that era of Springsteen. So I bought Nebraska and, and, and I saw Springsteen in concert in Chicago at the United center, got to experience what a live Springsteen show, the, the full force of a Springsteen live performance. And once you see that, you kind of have to be a fan because nobody performs like Springsteen. So I am a bigger fan than you, I would say for sure. But I wasn't a huge fan back when I was a kid. And maybe talking about the live performance is a good transition into the film because this probably wouldn't have been a surprise had I known more about the material and this specific period in Springsteen's life and career going in, the source material, the book, Deliver Me From Nowhere.

1:14:51this is a biopic about a musician with a reputation for his incomparable ability to perform for a live crowd in which josh there are almost no scenes of him performing for a live crowd and the emotional catharsis occurs for an audience of one and that's a therapist deliver me from nowhere is a movie largely about depression and one of our most personal rock songwriters journey to realizing that he can open his mouth to express himself to someone when he's not on stage. That's the journey of the film. And on that level, I can appreciate any biopic, any music biopic that defies some of those generic expectations.

1:15:31I mean, really, the movie opens with him playing Born to Run to end a tour. So you see about three minutes of a live performance, and you see them recording Born in the USA in the studio, maybe three-quarters of the way through the film. And that's about it as far as Springsteen performing. So that surprised me, and I suppose it surprised me in a good way. Right or wrong, you probably know this about me now over the years, verisimilitude in these types of films has mattered to me. It matters to me with music movies. I think it's more right than wrong to believe that here because Bruce's artistic reputation is all about authenticity, and the movie documents the making of this album, Nebraska, which is his most authentic or considered his most personal, his grittiest.

1:16:18It's the most raw. It's the one where he was just recording with him and his guitar in his bedroom and, you know, some echo effects and a cassette player. But otherwise, it's just him. And Jeremy Allen White, as an actor, can embody Springsteen. He can hit the emotional notes that you need, but musically, it's him playing. It's him singing. He sounds like Bruce. He plays like Bruce. There's comfort for me in how right he gets that. One issue is, though, and I have issues with this film, I'm mixed on this film, ultimately, is that when he's not recording Nebraska, he's writing Nebraska, and writers writing on screen is not only not very compelling, but to communicate whatever transfer is occurring between his brain, his subconscious, and the page, he can't talk to himself, or that would be odd.

1:17:21So we have to believe he's motivated to scribble things on a notepad or write it in a lyric. And that results in moments like him writing on a notepad, a yellow pad, double album, question mark, circle. Or when he started writing lyrics. And then, of course, he's being haunted by flashbacks, black and white memories of his dad in his tumultuous childhood. the drinking and the abuse problems between his father and mother, but also some tender moments between them. His father is played by, by Stephen Graham. And after all those flashbacks and he's driving to his father's, to the house he grew up in, in Jersey, and it's, it's dilapidated and everything.

1:18:09He now goes back to his yellow notepad and he returns to those lyrics. And you know what he does, Josh? He, he crosses out. it's either the pronoun she or he and he changes them to i because it's his demons that he's wrestling with and it has to convey that his songs are that personal yeah he's not going to hide behind these characters anymore this is bruce on the page deliver me from nowhere can't evoke the magnitude of Springsteen's interiority, straining to literalize the mysteries and anxieties that Nebraska already mined. It's there in the music. The music is doing the work. The album's doing the work, and the movie is just trying to put it up there on the screen.

1:18:56And we have all those black and white flashbacks to reveal all that inner turmoil. But the other way, and it feels cliched, and it feels heavy-handed, and the other way the movie chooses to allow us into Bruce's psyche is this. At two or three key points, after listening to demos, Josh, John Landau, who's like his best friend, longtime collaborator, friend, manager, producer, he's played by Jeremy Strong here. Jeremy Strong, in these scenes, tells us what Bruce is trying to convey. He articulates the inner turmoil, his psyche. In scenes with his wife, who's played by Grace Gummer, poor grace gummer maybe there was more on the page maybe there was more that was shot in the movie she might have a single line i'm not i'm not sure she even has that otherwise i don't even think we ever hear her name josh her character is literally only there to be the surrogate for the audience she's just to be there to be on the receiving end so her husband can explain to her to us what Bruce is going through.

1:20:06Like, I don't know where this falls on the Bechdel test, but I think it's way off the chart. You know, she's just a receptacle for Landau's, you know, psychologizing. And it feels so awkward. I found the whole characterization of Landau odd. Like the movie's trying to lionize him as much as it's lionizing Springsteen. It's like glorifying him in the same way it's glory. And I know how close they are, but that's how I felt. So those are the things that really held me back from fully embracing some of the more redeeming facets of the film. And for as awkward as some of those flashbacks are in scenes with the father and as cliched as they may have felt, I will give Stephen Graham as Douglas Springsteen a lot of credit.

1:20:53He does imbue some of those moments with some real heartbreaking vulnerability and despair. sounds like my instinct to hold off until you know jerry malen white gets his oscar nomination yeah it's probably a good one i think i'll wait till that happens to see it then i'll catch up with it uh an actor who i really admire so i did not surprised at all that he's quite good here we've got catherine bigelow's a house of dynamite to get to first a bit of housekeeping next week on the show we're going to keep the reviews coming trying to get to as many things as we can It's at that time of the year where screeners, fortunately, are piling up, and it's just about making as much time as we can to see them.

1:21:37Right now, I have five films I am seeing on the docket. I don't know, Josh, that we'll both see all of them, but I do know that we've both seen Del Toro's Frankenstein with Oscar Isaac and Jacob Elordi as The Creature. That's had a limited theatrical run. It comes to Netflix next weekend. And you had Pinocchio on your 2022 top 10 list. We've been fans of his work. I was so excited for this one. Can't wait to talk about it next week. I'm looking forward to it as well. Saw it on the big screen at the Music Box at the Chicago International Film Festival. So right environment. Did that pay off in my reaction?

1:22:16That's a tease in the business, Josh. We will also talk about, I need to see this one this weekend. Bugonia, the new one from Yorgos Lanthimos that expands this weekend. I was able to see The Mastermind, the new one from Kelly Reichert. I don't know that you are going to be able to see it, Josh. So Begonia is opening around me relatively near to me, I should say. The Mastermind, I might have to beg you to buy me another week on that. It is playing in Edinburgh, which I might be able to get to, but that's a little harder to get to than the other theaters I've been going to. But yeah, definitely The Mastermind is on my radar, and hopefully we'll be able to discuss that next week as well.

1:22:56So Christy is also coming out. That's the Sidney Sweeney boxing biopic about Christy Martin. David Misha directed that. I've seen that. I've also seen Peter Hujar's Day, the new one from Iris Sacks that played at the Refocus Film Festival. I think it was on the Chicago International Film Festival lineup as well. So a host of movies coming out and a host of movies that we've seen between the two of us. We'll have a lot for you over the coming weeks, all subject to change. As always, you can see what we have planned anyway by going to filmspotting.net slash episodes. Speaking of plans, Josh, a press release recently went out, and I'm very excited to mention it here on the show for the first time.

1:23:42You know, you would have been part of this, but you had to you had to venture off to to Scotland. I know I'm missing a handful of things. This one really hurts. I felt so honored to be approached by the city's Department of Cultural Affairs. The entire month of November, the Chicago Department of Cultural Affairs is honoring and the Chicago Film Office is celebrating 50 years of Siskel and Ebert. So every week in November, there is a different event going on that will pay tribute to Siskel and Ebert. And they approached me about having film spotting involved. They thought that seemed fitting because of us being part of this legacy, which is just an honor to even be mentioned as part of that conversation.

1:24:29conversation and they said, what would you like to do? What movie would you like to screen? We're thinking about having a screening and maybe a Q &A afterward. And I came up with a few ideas. And ultimately, the one I pitched, there could have been so many. We did an entire show with Matt Singer, right? About films that we think of immediately when we think about Siskel and Ebert, The movies that influenced us, that we identify with them. And one I said was John Sayles' Lone Star, a film that I remember going to see, driving an hour away from me to see. I had never heard of John Sayles. I had seen Eight Men Out, but I didn't know it was a John Sayles film.

1:25:12I drove an hour to see Lone Star because I watched their review of it and heard them rave about it and said I have to see that movie that sounds incredible. They put it on my radar and I want to revisit it. It seems like an important film to see now and because of that identification with the show I pitched it and they thought it was a great idea so we're going to screen that on November 25th so Thanksgiving week Tuesday November 25th. We're going to screen it. People can come out, be part of that screening. Michael Phillips and I are going to do a Q &A after that screening. Yeah, thanks to Michael for filling in for me.

1:25:51And he'll be perfect, right? He'll have stories I'm sure to tell of working alongside Ebert many years. And yeah, it'll be fun for you and Michael. Too bad. I'll have to miss it. that will take place. All of the movie screenings in November will take place at the historic Claudia Cassidy Theater in downtown Chicago. Some of the other movies that are playing, Eve's Bayou, Breaking Away, Drugstore Cowboy. It really is going to be a lot of fun. There's a part of this, Josh, that involves two actors playing Roger and Gene and doing a live performance. So it's going to be pretty great. I want to hear what that's like.

1:26:29If you're able to make that, I'm very curious what that's going to be like. We will link to more information about this over at filmspotting.net and in the notes for this show. We haven't had a prize pack to give away in a while, but speaking of the mastermind, our friends at Mubi have a prize pack for the mastermind. And all you have to do is send us a note, feedback at filmspotting.net, put mastermind prize in the subject line and tell us your favorite Kelly Reichert, not movie, Kelly Reichert character. Josh, we're going to make it a little harder on him. Yeah, I love this. And of course, I'm immediately thinking, who am I going to go with?

1:27:13Which, you know, is it going to be Michelle Williams? Yes, it is. I think I'm going to go with her, her pioneer wife in Meek's cutoff. I think that's where I would go. Yeah. Good choice. Good choice. The prize pack will feature items from the masterminds fictional Framingham museum of art. So should be very cool. Look forward to giving that out again. Just email us mastermind prize in the subject line feedback at filmspotting.net and tell us your favorite Riker character. And yes, it might be just telling us your favorite Michelle Williams character in a Kelly Riker movie. Quick note about our sister podcast, The Next Picture Show, looking at cinemas present via its past.

1:27:50Well, we're about to talk about House of Dynamite, and they are as well. That is part two of their first strikes pairing. Previously, they discussed Sidney Lumet's Failsafe, which I'm sure will come up in our conversation, Adam. That's a film we revisited as part of our Lumet Marathon not too long ago. So a great pairing there from the next picture show. You can find new episodes every Tuesday, wherever you get your podcasts. Obviously, this is difficult for me. I'm caught in the middle of something and I don't know what. What do you think it could be? I deal with a lot of important people. People who work for the committee?

1:28:34Hello? For the committee. The committee to reelect the president? Yes. Time for some poll results. And Josh, I thought this one maybe wasn't actually deeply flawed. I thought by making it a choice between the two clearly best options, we had perfected this poll. We asked listeners to tell us one and only one Robert Redford performance. Choose the best. Make it easy or make it really hard. Is it either Bob Woodward in All the President's Men or is it Butch Cassidy? Is it Sundance kid? I should say in Butch Cassidy and the Sundance kid. And this seems appropriate. It should have been difficult. It should have been close.

1:29:16How did it come out? Well, as happened with our top five Robert Redford movies, Adam, where you and I both chose number one, Bob Woodward and all the president's men, that movie took this poll as well. 55 % to 45 % for Butch, which I think makes it a not flawed poll. I think if you have it relatively close like that, it means we did a good job, but apparently listeners were upset that we limited the options. I guess. I mean, I'm looking at the feedback and here's cue ball saying just two options. Come on, man. Sam Oppenheim. Same thing. Only those choices. I prefer the sting. Maybe we underestimated the sting.

1:29:58Jeremy Webner Berman. Also the sting three exclamation points. Yeah. Sean means go ahead and take it. Without Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid, there would not be the Robert Redford that we know. Not just the other great movies that rolled out of that star-making performance. And not just the perfect teaming with Paul Newman, but also the outlaw spirit that animated Redford's drive to produce movies, direct movies, and create the Sundance Institute to give other storytellers a place to develop work that breaks the rules and pushes the boundaries of filmmaking in the United States and around the world.

1:30:30Okay, so finally, someone's willing to play along with our rules, and Sean goes with Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid. And Sean would know, movie writer out in Salt Lake, has met and interviewed Redford more than once or twice. Here's Josh Broder, All the President's Men, such a disciplined, unshowy performance. He couldn't suppress his good looks, but he did shut down the charm and became the fact-gathering machine that the real Bob Woodward, I should say, who I've met several times, was and is. Now Josh is showing off. Also, if necessary, please spread the word about All is Lost, a masterclass in film acting by a master.

1:31:06I had it as an honorable mention. It is a good movie and a very, very good Redford performance. We have a new poll, Josh, and that means another opportunity for us to be deeply flawed. We discussed Back to the Future earlier in the show. Who's going to argue with us that that's Robert Zemeckis' best film? no one right at this point i don't think so i mean prime forest gump i think you had people talking about that as the pinnacle for zemeckis but that movie's taken its hit over the years i still like it quite a bit that's why this poll is kind of difficult for me but maybe now people would go to back to the future okay we left that out of the poll because we were going to ask what's his best film we thought back to the future would just just run away with it so we decided instead to ask you, what is his second best film?

1:32:01We gave you five options. Josh, they are. Back to the Future 2, if you really want to scratch that itch still, Castaway, Contact, Forrest Gump, Roger Rabbit. And yeah, this time we are also going to offer Other. So what's funny about this is I would have never thought to include Back to the Future 2. And in fact, I left it out when I originally sent back to Sam my suggestions with the other choices. But But I looked at Letterboxd and after Back to the Future, and I think Forrest Gump and maybe Roger Rabbit, Back to the Future was the next most popular Zemeckis film. So I thought, OK, well, sequel to a beloved first film, maybe it needs to be in the mix.

1:32:45And I will note that right now I think it is finishing last in this poll. So it turns out that didn't end up the Letterboxd crossover didn't happen here with our audience. But I was thinking about this. it didn't come up in our review. I have said this before on the show for as much as I loved back to the future. And Josh, I said, I thought it was probably my favorite 1985 movie in 85. I have still never seen either of the sequels. The fact that the fact that I loved that movie as much as I did and the sequel came out four years later and I was like, no, not interested. And I, and so I was thinking about it.

1:33:20Why did I, at that time, why could I not be bothered to check it out? And I honestly think the only answer is by that time, four years later, going into going into high school, I was I was on I was actually on to music. I was into, you know, I was getting into being in my band and I thought I was into more serious things. And Back to the Future felt to me like a kid's movie. Yeah. And I didn't care. That's right. I think that's right. It's related a little bit to how ironically, so if I was 11, when back to the future came out, it felt a little older than star Wars that I was still into, but had been for a while.

1:33:58I think you're right. That maybe if it was really four years later, I mean, that's a big transition in your life from what 11 to, you know, 10 to 15, 11 to, you know, 14, whatever it would be. And maybe I did see both sequels, but have not watched them repeatedly or even seen them since, honestly. And I think that was probably part of it for me as well. I felt to some degree I was, I'd outgrown it. Where are you going in this poll? Is it Gump? You know, if I revisited Gump and revisited Roger Rabbit, that's what I would like to do. Because I think I would probably lean Roger Rabbit. But I just want to see, it's been so long since I've watched that, if it does as a whole hold up against something like Gump, which, as I said, I really do like.

1:34:48Now, these others, Back to the Future 2, it wasn't really a consideration for me. But Cast Away and Contact, I think, are both incredibly strong. So they gave me pause. But yeah, I think for me, it comes down to those two. And I'm going to say probably Roger Rabbit at this point. I see some of the critiques of Forrest Gump a little bit more clearly than maybe I did when it first came out. Not that I think the movie's worthless by any means. So probably today my vote will go with Roger Rabbit. Okay. I obviously can't consider Back to the Future 2. So if I'm allowing myself to vote and just putting that one to the side, I like Roger Rabbit okay.

1:35:26It's definitely not above Castaway Contact or Forrest Gump. It comes down to me to the two Hanks movies. It's Castaway or Gump. And what you said is interesting to me, Josh, because I know that there are those critiques out there of Gump. I know there's a lot of people that really have a lot of disdain for that film. I haven't at this point indulged in those critiques I haven't I haven't read them I don't know what the what the hate for that movie is I mean I understand fundamentally or at the core what it's about but I really haven't read the the depth of it and I haven't considered it and I haven't watched the movie through that lens I haven't revisited it so I don't really know what the the fuss is all about I only know what I saw when I saw it twice back in 94 when it came out.

1:36:16And I kind of loved it when I saw it originally. And I'm still going off of that. Good film. So yeah, Forrest Gump is going to be my pick. You can vote in that poll and leave a comment at filmspotting.net. We will share results and possibly your feedback in a couple of weeks. Next up, and to close out the show, we have Catherine Bigelow's A House of Dynamite. Josh, a nuclear missile has been launched at the United States. We don't know who launched it, but we have 19 minutes to respond. Rebecca Ferguson, Idris Elba, Tracy Letts, and others are on the case. Get in the car and just start driving.

1:36:55If we do not take steps to neutralize our enemies now, we will lose our window to do so. If we get this wrong, none of us are going to be alive tomorrow.

1:37:34can talk about a house of dynamite without reckoning with its conclusion or lack thereof. What did you make of a house of dynamite? Yeah. Before we get to that, uh, I'm, I'm positive on it. I don't think it's among Bigelow's best. I don't think it's at the level of filmmaking craft of something like, you know, zero dark 30 or the hurt locker. And maybe it's just the technique that's chosen here. the very docudrama style that I feel like we've moved on from where, you know, you're in a war room and the camera will, you know, zoom in or change focus from one face to another to give us a sense of immediacy.

1:38:11That being said, it was still, of course, like crisply made. And I was caught in its grip. There's no denying that I was caught in this scenario. I think the multiple perspectives, while not as additive as something similar happened in this year's weapons. That was, you know, that was crucial, I think, to why weapons was so good. I'm not sure it's as additive here, though you do learn different things about characters and about the scenario, the predicament in general. So I don't think it hurts. I don't know that it helps all that much. My favorite thing about it, and I'm guessing you liked this too, because I remember you were super high on a Volker Bertelman score for All Quiet on the Western Front.

1:38:53and what he brings here is just, it feels like some of the movements, the musical motifs here are like my stomach dropping out, which may be the key reason why I was in this film's grip as much as I was. So yeah, I think if you're intrigued by the premise, it's well worth checking out. If you're a Bigelow fan, which I am, it's worth seeing to put in the context of her career. Maybe there's something lacking there about the dynamics of men in tight situations and where women might fit in. A little light on that maybe, but still, I would recommend it. And yeah, I do want to talk a little bit about how the ending worked or didn't work or just affected you.

1:39:36I do really appreciate the score and the way that you described it. I think it throngs at just the level that it needs to, meaning it, it doesn't overwhelm anything that's happening. It, it, it adds just enough extra tension without, without feeling like it, it's trying to do too much. Yeah. It chooses its moments. It's overwhelming us. And that's the thing too. I think it's, it's used, it's used appropriately and, and you used all the right terms to describe the intensity of this movie. I'm really conflicted by it because there's no doubt that I was hooked. With no disrespect at all to Bigelow, who I do greatly admire as a filmmaker, I have been wondering if what I'm going to say next, which is a variation on what I just said, would be true almost regardless of how well it was crafted or who crafted it, just based on the plot, just based on the structure.

1:40:33Yeah. However, unsatisfying that plot and structure may ultimately be. I was locked onto the screen through mounting annoyances through general dissatisfaction with how each chapter gets progressively weaker, I think not stronger. I mean, I think one is the best and then two and then three as it as it builds to its conclusion. the stakes are so high and so urgently real and and with the score and some of the other elements it is is propelling you along that even if it's stretched out over an hour and 52 minutes of runtime it's all playing out over those 19 minutes of screen time and that countdown to extinction megadeth reference is gripping and i think it it it almost can't be anything but gripping and And to illustrate my point, I started the movie Saturday night and I wasn't able to finish it before Sarah and I went to see the Springsteen movie.

1:41:29So I had to finish it Sunday morning. It was basically part three, except I had started part three had already begun Saturday night. They were they were already at the basketball arena. Let me put it that way. So maybe 20 some minutes left. And and I was kind of thinking about this when I started it. I knew that Sarah was just behind me in the kitchen as I was watching the movie. And I was pretty sure I was like with no context at all, not even knowing the name of the film, what's happening, and no interest in watching this movie on a Sunday morning. I bet she's going to start hearing this movie and picking up on what's going on, and she's going to start paying attention.

1:42:10she's going to start the next and the next thing I knew Josh sure enough the last like 15 minutes of the movie she's on the couch next to me watching the end of the film like it's just that kind of thriller if you're in the room you are going to end up watching it so so why is it why is it frustrating why am I why am I mixed on it you talked about the structure and and is it additive enough if you're going to take the Rashomon approach show us the same event from different perspectives, then you do have to do something to justify it. What makes Rashomon Rashomon is it isn't showing us the same event from different perspectives.

1:42:46It's that all of the participants have a different perspective on the event, a different version of the truth, a subjective version that projects a more suitable image of themselves. I'm not criticizing a house of dynamite for not taking the same approach that Rashomon did. Chapter two's retelling, you know, doesn't make us question chapter ones and they're both different than chapter three and there's no universal truth. No, there's one, there's one version of the truth here. But what, what am I getting? Am I getting deeply drawn characters with enough nuance to warrant watching the same conversations just with the camera pointed at a different person?

1:43:24Am I getting enough political depth with nuance to justify that shift? Am I getting enough emotional depth? Am I really learning anything new about the difficulty of decision-making as each chapter develops and we move up the chain of command? I didn't really think so. And in some cases, I was questioning, why are we spending any time with some of these characters at all? Willa Fitzgerald is a CNN representative at the White House, who we cut to a few times. Moses Ingram is a FEMA official. Yeah, that's unnecessary. These feel so just clunky in terms of how they're used. And this is a movie that is gripping with real-world urgency and its ticking clock premise, but struggles to justify its repetitive structure.

1:44:14That's how I felt. It was offering diminishing returns. And then ultimately it had for me, what was a frustratingly hollow ending that that's where I came out on it real quick. And then we'll jump to spoilers. I think you're largely right. I, as you were going through the possibilities though, the one that did resonate was, which is somewhat related to her ongoing concern about, you know, men in action and, and what that social dynamic is the difficulty of decision-making. I did feel got amped up because one stressor I kept having during the movie was surely someone's in charge here who will know what to do.

1:44:50And you learn early on, we're screwed. It's like in this scenario, we're screwed, but yet that hope still clings to you. And when you shift perspectives, it's sort of like, okay, this group is going to know what decision to make or how to handle what we've previously seen differently. So again, overall, I agree with you. I don't think the perspectives are necessarily hugely additive, but the difficulty of decision-making element, I did think was one, one thing that I at least resonated with. Okay. I do want to talk about that more with the ending, but let me, let me give a couple other quick things.

1:45:25One, one, one bad one good for me, the other attempts to humanize the characters and add additional weight to the story with the constant insert shots that we got. I also found heavy handed flags waving on cars, portraits of former presidents overlooking the decision making, the toys that some of these parents have bought for their kids. The dinosaur figurine does a lot of emotional work. The minion that falls out of the locker as they go off on their mission and the camera has to tilt down to make sure that we see it. Now, you know who I liked a lot, speaking of a decision maker in chapter two, was Tracy Letts.

1:46:01I really like Tracy Letts as General Brady. He's the combatant commander. That's his title of Stratcom, because this is the general character we have seen so many times before in Failsafe and lots of other films. he is the hawk by nature of his role the combatant commander he is the hawk he is always or he should be always a little too eager or a little too willing to let the nuclear arsenal fly to strike first at our enemies by the nature of his position he has to be the one to present that reality to everyone to to make everyone realize hey by the way we maybe have to launch our missiles and actually be the aggressors here in this scenario.

1:46:45And I will say that there's a real laugher in the script when, when, and Letts does his best with it. When, when the president who we don't see at this point says, this is insanity. And Letts has to say, no, Mr. President, this is reality, but it is the reality. And Letts presents the strike options in a way that we've never seen a general character like this in one of these movies before that betrays no true to me betrayed no true leaning. He was objective. He was detached almost in a way that never felt inhuman, though. I thought it was a real tightrope walk that Letts walked in this film. Yeah, he's good.

1:47:23His scenes are good. And the decision making comes in there. You do get more information about what he has at his disposal to have that response when we do get to his section a little bit more, which I thought added something. There is no plan B. We didn't hit everything right, right?

1:47:41We did everything right. None of this makes sense. Making all these bombs and all these plans.

1:47:54The walls are just ready to blow. So here's where let's go ahead and get to the ending. Let's talk about the spoilers because it does seem from a little bit I've seen online. This is a divisive ending and I can understand because my immediate reaction, probably like a lot of people was what? So let's talk about it. What was your reaction to the ending? And were you were you surprised, surprised in a good way, a bad way, ultimately disappointed by it or not? I was surprised. I did not think it was going to end there, but I don't think I have a problem with it. And here's where we can bring in the Lumet film fail safe, which we discussed as part of our marathon not too long ago.

1:48:38I think I immediately made the connection that fail safe ends not exactly the same way. I think there's a bit of a question mark over house of dynamite. Maybe I'm reading it differently than you are, but it is still a question mark where any answer that we get is a doomsday answer. So to me, the two films shared a, whether you want to call it political or philosophical position about nuclear proliferation in general, that both endings to me served well. Failsafe had to end the way it does, which I don't know if we want to spoil that as well, but it's not good. and A House of Dynamite ends, again, as I said, a little bit of a question mark, not exactly the explosion, but still clearly to me, not good.

1:49:33And so I guess that's why it didn't bother me. Maybe I'm misremembering the ending of Failsafe, but I see the endings as very different Because failsafe ends with a decision being made. Failsafe ends with a clear conclusion as to a doomsday scenario. And this film wants to end on a note of ambiguity that supposedly, I think, leaves us to question what could happen next and to send us off our couches to have a larger conversation about the absurdity of nuclear war. and the absurdity of any human being being put in these types of decision-making scenarios. Because what happens at the end is we don't even see that Chicago actually gets blown up.

1:50:25There's a potential world where we could believe, maybe perhaps naively and optimistically, that Chicago actually doesn't get destroyed even because, as we hear throughout, that sometimes they misfire, sometimes they're duds. But let's assume Chicago's hit, because that seems likely. And at the end, the closing image we see is all the people who have been sent to Ravensrock, is it? That's the place where that's the bunker, basically, where the government is now going to be holed up. Ravensrock is the place where the new government is going to have to operate. So we have to assume we're operating in a world where a decision has, I suppose a decision has had to have been made, but we don't know what the decision is.

1:51:10We don't know whether or not we have struck or whether or not others are, more missiles are coming at us. So it's ambiguous in a way that fail safe isn't ambiguous. And I guess I can applaud a good rug pull, but I actually think and it feels like a rug pull because the movie has been building to a decision. You can't say the movie hasn't been building to a decision. I think on some level, Bigelow and Oppenheim must believe that structuring it the way they have and not having it actually chronologically build to a decision and to a declaration or declarations of war that maybe they can get away with the ending because they can point to the structure as proof that, hey, it was never about the payoff.

1:51:53It was always about the decision, the provoking a conversation around the decision, ruminating on our tenuous reality and that absurdity of any human making a decision. Because, look, we're we're showing how they how they the process. That's what we're showing. It's not about it's not about genre thrills. And we're going to show you an ending. But but as as one character, you know, as one character in the movie says, it really comes down to this idea of of of suicide and and surrender. And so what they're saying is we're not going to give you that that choice happening at the end. But I kind of disagree, Josh, because actually that structure only amplified for me the importance of seeing a character have to make actually have to make that decision.

1:52:38The president have to make that crazy decision between suicide and surrender, like the president in fail safe does have to make potentially have to accept and live with the consequences of that decision. And to see the movie speculate on then what what the fallout of that that is. Yes, I thought I thought it was a little bit of a hop out, actually. OK, I can see that. And of course, there's no way of equating. I mean, Idris Elba is fine here as the president, but he's not Henry. I think he might be less than fine, but he's not Henry Fonda for sure. So there's this whole more personal dilemma that fail safe has that house of dynamite does not.

1:53:17And perhaps that's why, which I think is to fail safe credit, which is perhaps why you found it lacking here. The reason I didn't, and you were essentially getting towards it, is that the bottom line to me, point for both films, is that there is no right decision to make in this scenario. The decision has been made by humanity to proliferate nuclear arms, or by particular countries, let's say. And so for me, the answer, it would be almost more of a cop-out for House of Dynamite to say, choose a decision that might hint at the possibility that this was the right way to handle this situation. Again, going from my early frustration with the movie, I think the movie is all about how we can have millions of billions of dollars spent on this.

1:54:10We can have so many departments, so many people who are the smartest in the world. And when you're dealing with a power like this, it's like the cat is out of the bag. Like there isn't a right decision. And so I think that leaving us in that ambiguity is part of the movie's strength in leaving us in that space. Sure. That is definitely what the movie is going for. And I do see, I mean, I do see that argument. I'm I'm on I'm obviously on the other side of it a little bit a little bit more because what I struggle with to some extent is that the reality is while all that's true and you know the movie war games back in the 80s told us the answer that like the only the only winning move is to not play the game right yeah we know we know that okay the reality is that if this ever happens someone will be making this choice there there won't be a move to stop the movie we won't get to say let's let's get off the game let's stop playing the game and so that actually is the more interesting dilemma for me to see someone wrestle with is to actually not only wrestle with it but then have to actually make the choice i think the other the other thing i'm i'm thinking about with this film is what conversation are you provoking to some extent that hasn't been provoked and discussed so many times before.

1:55:38This dilemma of suicide or surrender has been true since the beginning of the Cold War. That anxiety has been played out in films like Failsafe. The new wrinkle here, what's really fascinating, and this film does get into it, is that back then we at least knew that if a nuclear missile was coming at us, it only came from one place and only one enemy. And now we have nine nuclear armed countries. And there could be a scenario like this one in the movie where we don't even know who fired it. We don't know if some countries may be capable in a way that we weren't aware of. And that adds to this kind of chaos and confusion.

1:56:17And that element then, that new wrinkle that's added into the current state of nuclear geopolitics, I guess that to me actually could have been something really interesting for this movie to be about that obviously the movie's not about at all, really. It's just part of the plot, but it's not really what the movie's about. Yeah. It's a terrifying part of the plot. I mean, as you said, that new added element, you know, just gives me one more thing to be awake at night about. I don't, you know, as much as I don't enjoy that, a movie will make me do that. I don't think there's any harm in having these conversations again and again.

1:56:55You know, and I totally get your point. Like having the president make the decision, it makes it a more personal moral dilemma, which is easier as viewers to latch onto and perhaps makes it a more engaging narrative. But in terms of what both this and Failsafe are interested in, I think I'd rather go home deeply distressed about this. It's been decades and decades. This is still a terrifying scenario to live with under than a fun, quote unquote, fun debate about whether the president's decision was the right one. I think that would have brought the concerns down to a very singular moral question, which would probably be interesting and reveal some things.

1:57:38But I think it is the bigger conversation that House of Dynamite wants to have. Whether you feel there's much value in that may differ, obviously. I see your point and I don't necessarily disagree, but I would also say I still felt provoked the same way you're describing by fail safe. Yeah. And that makes the opposite choice. Fonda, right? Like that's what Fonda does. Well, in contrast, Idris Elba really appreciate him as an actor. It seemed like the only decision he made for his character was to play exhausted and not impressed with this performance. Huh? No sleepy. Sleepy. Isn't really, you know, a compelling choice.

1:58:19I'm going to say for, for a character. And that's, that's all I really got, unfortunately, out of his president after a brief limited run house of dynamite currently available exclusively on Netflix. Josh, that's our show. If you want to connect with us on social media, you can find Adam and the show on Instagram, on Facebook, on letterboxd and on YouTube at film spotting. Look for him there. You can find me at all those places as Larson on film. We are independently produced and listener supported. If you want to be one of those listeners who supports us, you can do so by joining the Film Spotting Family at filmspottingfamily.com.

1:58:58You'll get to listen early every week. You'll also get ad-free episodes. Sam's newsletter will come your way every week. And yes, we do record monthly bonus episodes. We've got a new one coming up here pretty soon, a Tom Cruise draft. That was very fun. Also, as a Film Spotting Family member, you get access to the entire show archive. now for show t-shirts and other merch you can go to filmspotting.net slash shop speaking of that film spotting archive would you believe and i mean i can believe it there is not a single review of another robert zemeckis film over 20 years of doing this show the only the only one i should say is beowulf episode 187 that's crazy it is but But...

2:00:13It's a different story entirely. at least twice indeed. Streaming or out VOD this weekend, you can see Ballad of a Small Player on Netflix. I did see this Edward Berger movie with Colin Farrell. It's my first disappointment from Edward Berger. I liked All Quiet on the Western Front. I liked Conclave. And I equated those two movies, Josh, as films that were both about machinery, about the machinery of war and then the machinery of picking a pope. And I thought he documented those really well. And this, this in a way, isn't about that. It picks up, though, on this, this idea coming out of Conclave, though, about salvation and redemption in a very heavy, in a very heavy handed way.

2:00:58Unfortunately, with Colin Farrell's character as a poker player, it certainly is not subtle in his character being someone who through his poker playing, is he a character who can be redeemed? We'll see if any of you find it redeeming. I'd love to hear your thoughts. It is worth seeing, Josh. It's not one of those films I'm saying, like, skip it, especially on Netflix if you're looking for something to watch. Visually, it's almost like one of those films where the contrast is turned up to 100 to give it that feeling of everything just being too vivid, you know, where like the character's life is in another dimension in some way.

2:01:36And then there's something interesting about that. Like he's in another realm, almost a purgatorial realm. So there's some interesting things going on with that and with Farrell's performance. But that's Ballad of a Small Player. I'm interested in Hedda, Nia DaCosta's adaptation of the Ibsen play with Tessa Thompson and Nina Haas. That's on Amazon Prime. I hope we can maybe throw that one into the mix next week. We'll have to see. Yeah. Back to the Future, re-released, of course. Recommended by us. Bugonia, expanding. next week. We'll talk about Begonia, Frankenstein, a few other movies as well.

2:02:11Jafar Panahi's, it was just an accident. Another film that's expanded that I'm going to try to fit in. Let's throw that into the mix too. Film spotting is produced by Golden Joe Dissot and Sam Van Hallgren. Without Sam and Golden Joe, this show wouldn't go. Our production assistant is Sophie Kempinar. Special thanks to everyone at WBEZ Chicago. More information is available at WBEZ.org. For Film Spotting, I'm Josh Larson. And I'm Adam Kempinar. Thanks for listening. This conversation can serve no purpose anymore. Goodbye.

2:02:59Film Spotting is listener supported. Join the Film Spotting family at filmspottingfamily.com and get access to ad-free episodes, monthly bonus shows, our weekly newsletter, and for the first time, all in one place, the entire FilmSpotting archive going back to 2005. That's at FilmSpottingFamily.com.