Blade Runner with Michael Phillips | Archive

18:16Adam Kempenaar:So I do love that performance. And look, what I responded to when I saw this movie for the first time, and honestly, the last time, it was back in college. It was over 20 years ago I saw this film. But that question, of course, that typical sort of cliche, if you will, sci-fi question, what ultimately makes us human? And of course, the movie suggests that beyond emotions, beyond a capacity for imagination, maybe it is memories. And beyond memories, it's this instinct for survival, the desire to live, to go beyond your life expectancy, however you pull that off. And so we get into that similar ground to some of the Alien movies with Scott, where he loves the idea of meeting your maker, confronting your maker and asking for more life or demanding more life, which is something I think we would all probably do if we could.

19:03Adam Kempenaar:It is a fundamentally human quest. One of the things I missed, though, that really stuck out to me this time watching it that fits in with all of this is the end of the film, that showdown between Batty and Deckard. I always saw as Batty just kind of toying with Deckard, maybe ultimately having sympathy for him. He spares him, of course, but toying with him, but just kind of prolonging their confrontation that he is ultimately going to take him down. Whether he changes his mind or not is something we can discuss. But I thought maybe, OK, he has a cruel streak in him and he's going to take it out on Deckard, who has killed his friends, the other replicants.

19:40Adam Kempenaar:And then what I really tapped into this time is the way Scott emphasizes Deckard's struggle to survive, really keying in on the lengths he goes to in order to survive. climbing through those holes, climbing up on that bureau, whatever it is, going through the ceiling, going out on that ledge, the way he's hanging on for dear life, literally. And his fingers are about to fall. And we are constantly seeing that from Batty's perspective, too. I think in a lot of ways, it's a more intense and shortened version of the entire struggle of Batty and his replicants since they had their mutiny and escaped.

20:18Adam Kempenaar:It's basically, I think what he sees in him in that moment is that same desire to live, that same desire to survive that he himself feels. And so ultimately then sees a certain kinship with him.

20:31Josh Larsen:And there's a vulnerability there too. And I think, so this is what Ford does have. And this is what he had from the start. It's the same thing that Bruce Willis tapped into that made him an iconic action hero was vulnerability. This guy could get hurt. You know, he wasn't like Stallone or he wasn't like Schwarzenegger in this way. And we see that in Ford's performance here. I think it works really well. And I think what's so moving about that climactic showdown is that Batty just succumbs to his own exhaustion and weariness and maybe realizes the futility of this human emotion he's experiencing, revenge.

21:06Josh Larsen:Does that make him human? That he now wants to pursue vengeance for Deckard killing the other replicants? I don't know, maybe. And the speech itself works for me because it's almost as if Batty had been programmed for Shakespeare. It's That dramatically given, right? That's why we remembered. It's very melodramatic. He's theatrical. He's theatrical. He makes entrances. Underneath that, you can sense that there's something also deeply felt about what he's saying that Hauer is also bringing to the performance. And I think that's where the connection is made where then we start to realize, OK, this whole movie is about our own mortality, whether we're replicants or not.

21:41Josh Larsen:Maybe that's where it has a leg up on. I can see what you're saying, Michael. Alien. You could say Alien did this. It's a different kind of thing. But in terms of the artificially intelligent figure, you could say, well, Alien did this with one side character. You know, in Ash, everything that Blade Runner is doing, Alien did kind of off to the side. To a degree, I see that. But I think there's something larger and more universal about this sense of mortality that we're experiencing in Blade Runner that we don't maybe get in the character of Ash.

22:11Michael Phillips:Now, does it matter to you guys? The key question that everybody keeps coming back to is, is Deckard a rep?

22:17Adam Kempenaar:So I want to talk about that for sure. I don't know if I'm ready to get there yet, but I think we should close with that for sure. Apple Vacations, where your story starts. The Friends and Family Sale is here at Apple Vacations. Book by September 24th and save up to 50 % on all-inclusive vacations with instant savings. Whether it's a getaway with friends or a family vacation, there's always a reason to make more memories with your favorite people. Travel through August 2027 and start planning your getaway today at AppleVacations.com or with your trusted travel advisor. Apple Vacations, where your story starts.

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24:42Adam Kempenaar:I want to go back to something you both brought up in terms of the narrative and how successful or unsuccessful it is, because one of the co-screenwriters here, David Peoples, I saw a comment from him where he said, I think fairly recently, that if you're talking about Ridley Scott and you have to choose visuals over narrative, and I'm paraphrasing here, he says, you always go with visuals. But damn, I wish it had a better narrative, people said. So basically commenting on his own material that Scott envisioned on screen.

25:07Michael Phillips:This is, I think, a limitation of the film.

25:09Adam Kempenaar:You guys touch on this a little bit. I wondered if there were any more specifics about what specifically with the story didn't work. What I would single out does go back to what you were talking about, Josh, in terms of the Sean Young character. And I love her performance. And of course, part of what I love about her performance is the way Cronenwith lights her. And the fact that every time she walks into a room and the way she walks in and out of shadows, you are just mesmerized by her. And it is down to her movement itself is also fascinating. But, oh, that sex scene. Will you kiss me?

25:42Michael Phillips:I can't rely on... Say kiss me.

25:49Kiss me.

25:51Adam Kempenaar:The ramifications of it, everything that would go with this character Deckard, who we can talk about the replicant part of this later, but a human we perceive him to be, we believe he perceives himself to be, about to engage in this act with a replicant, the movie takes no time to really think about any of the consequences of that whatsoever. And I think that the whole thing is so bizarre that there is a noir inevitability. From the moment she walks in, she's a maul and they seem to be drawn to each other in some way. I'll give the movie that. But when it happens, it still feels like the movie hasn't completely earned that relationship between them.

26:30Adam Kempenaar:And I think you can even point to something like the fact that She plays a major role in the plot when she saves his life, pulling out a gun randomly on the street and killing a replicant who's trying to kill Harrison Ford. Where does that come from other than it's serving a plot need? Right, right. I think that's absolutely true.

26:46Josh Larsen:And I also think here's where the noir comparisons don't do the movie any favors because a strength of all the classic film noirs is the femme fatale. And Young, I wouldn't, you know, I don't think it's that arresting of a performance, but I think that's because of the script, Adam, not because of anything Young is doing. certainly she is lit in that way. They set her up to be that femme fatale, but they have not written her that way. The scene you talked about, the sex scene, rape scene almost is how it plays now. I mean, it's really disturbing when you watch the scene through today's eyes, maybe, that 1982 audiences might not have.

27:22Josh Larsen:But I think it's also just troubling because the character is never fully developed and it's a crucial character, right? Rachel should be the linchpin between the replicant world and the human world, and she's not given enough narrative support to make that work. I think she captures that otherworldliness.

27:39Michael Phillips:I would argue with, I think both those performances, it's not that they were spring chickens. I mean, they had done some work by then, Ford and Young, but I think those performances are not quite what they could be, even given that script. I think craftier, wittier performers, not necessarily playing for laughs or anything. God knows I wouldn't, you know, that film can only accommodate so much levity at all. But I think craftier performers would play that guessing game a little more about how human or how replicant we really are in different degrees with these two characters. But I think, again, I get the sense of kind of one note hit hard.

28:22Michael Phillips:I don't know if Ridley Scott's even really an actor's director, frankly. And I think Young, you know, I think you can get 100 actresses in Hollywood who probably would have pulled it off more so than Young. Wow. Yeah, medium talent at best, I think. Now, Ford, obviously, better than that on his high end. He wasn't there yet with this. And I think that's a limitation of the film. I think also just the storytelling rhythm, even if it's a simple, gonna do this, gonna do this, gonna do this, and then I'm gonna meet my Waterloo maybe at the end. That's a very methodical, segmented, vignette-oriented kind of structure.

28:56Michael Phillips:And I think that's probably why the screenwriter, David Peoples, the co-writer, was a little frustrated because it just is what it is. It's not much, you know. And you get all this set up. And one of my favorite scenes is the one with Joanna Cassidy as the snake handler, you know, in the window. And then she's, you know, that's a performer who is completely alive. I mean, she's a great actress anyway. And I wish she had gotten the role she deserved, you know, in her heyday. But obviously that Replicant's life story is over five minutes later after this sort of like baroquely sadistic series of running through the plate glass windows, which is like – even in the history of plate glass being smashed on film, that was a ton of plate glass.

29:36Michael Phillips:It was. And it's a bit, that's, to me, that moment is kind of, it's perfect. It's a perfect, you know, emblem of what Ridley Scott's up to. It's gorgeous, and it's unsettling, and it might be a tiny bit much. And that's Ridley Scott, you know, whether you love him or not.

29:53Adam Kempenaar:I have to say I did get really caught up in that question of whether or not Deckard is a replicant and one of my questions to you guys is why does it matter really why is it that some people refuse at this point to accept it what is it about the film or those characters or us as movie watchers that want to cling to some notion that he isn't but before we get there let's go ahead and try to answer the question because like I said it is something that I've been thinking about since I finished the film where do you guys come out.

30:23Josh Larsen:Well, I'd have to separate. What would you say if you had just watched, say, the final cut? I mean, is there enough there that we'd even be asking the question? I think that one sequence of the unicorn is maybe the biggest hint, especially after we've learned that memories have been implanted. He seems confused at where that has come from. And that may be just enough for you to say, oh, OK, in addition to the Rachel character, who has already been someone who's deluded to think they're real. So maybe you could surmise it. But honestly, just having watched the final cut, I think it's just a tantalizing possibility.

30:56Adam Kempenaar:Well, I did want to scan to this scene before I sat down here and I failed to do so in the original theatrical cut. But I think there's one other giveaway even before the unicorn. I think there are some other hints and clues potentially along the way. And yes, I only watched the final cut this time. But there is a hint that Ridley Scott puts in there that I assume is in the theatrical version originally, which is a question. She openly brings it up, right? She raises it to him in his apartment. She says, have you taken the test? Are you sure you want to? That's true. So it puts that in our minds as viewers.

31:31Adam Kempenaar:He doesn't hear it because he falls asleep. I think there are some other things that you could cling to if you were looking for the support. The way Bryant refers to him as a one man slaughterhouse, the fact that he does seem to have such a non life, almost like a replicant might. And he seems almost like he was programmed to do this job and do only that job. and he doesn't have the sense of empathy. There's a vulnerability and an emotion to someone like Roy Batty, but he has no problem hurting anyone along the way to get to what he ultimately wants. Deckard is very much the same way. I was even thinking about some of the dialogue where there is that line I reference where Bryant says about Batty, there is a bad one, he's the worst.

32:11Adam Kempenaar:He says to Deckard later, aren't you the good one? And it makes me think almost, I wonder if it's playing with the idea whether Batty knows something or Ridley Scott, again, is just sort of toying with us. the idea that, well, he's the good replicant who's serving the people. So anyway, that's there. There is a clue, I think, in the photographs on his piano. Remember, we see that. And we do learn earlier that the replicants, they love those photos. They cling to those. They're given those as memories of a supposed real past. So that's all there. And then we, of course, get to the unicorn. And I want to talk about that and the origami leave behind, Edward James Olmos, right, at the end of the film.

32:51Adam Kempenaar:That would seem to be pretty strong evidence, right? That this must be a case where he's a replicant because it is referencing his daydream, as you said, the unicorn earlier, which ties back to Rachel and the clip we heard and Harrison Ford informing her, no, you're really a replicant because that might've been Tyrell's nieces. Those were implanted in you. And it's as if Gaff, the Edward James Olmos character is saying, I've read your file just like you read hers that that was just an implant that unicorn that's why he made a unicorn there so that would seem to clinch it right that that he must be a replicant or the Ridley Scott is absolutely trying to say but it's the movie is but it's the movie better for it no I don't know so so we'll get there let me just finish my spiel here on whether he is because you can counter that and say in the original version we don't get the unicorn daydream Right.

33:43Adam Kempenaar:We do get the origami figure at the end. And all it conveys is nothing more than Gaff basically showing I was there. I could have killed her and I didn't. And that's how we all saw the first version of this film. And that was on your tail or that, too. I certainly read it as he was here. He had his chance to take her down. He's letting them get away. Deckard seems to realize that. And he kind of reacts nonchalantly. It's not as if Deckard reacts to that as if he's been stunned by some existential realization that he's a replicant. He sort of turns and with some urgency heads out the door with her.

34:17Adam Kempenaar:So this is all leading to the fact that I think the more emphatic giveaway is that goldish red glow that only the replicants have in their eyes. If you watch the whole film, only the artificial figures have that glow in their eyes. and damn it, Deckard has it in the scene back at the apartment where he's standing right next to her kind of behind her, behind her shoulder and she has it in her eyes and he has it in her eyes and why would that be there? Adam, that's the look of love. I mean, it does beg the question, why do we only see it that once in him? But why would he have that if he wasn't artificial?

34:52Adam Kempenaar:Right, and it does come and go for her as well, I believe.

34:54Michael Phillips:Yeah, it's not there all the time. Nobody questions whether or not Sean Young is a replicant at all. They know, you know it right away. Do you like my owl? I mean, that's not a human. That's not human. That's not human.

35:05Adam Kempenaar:I guess I would at least say this, and we should throw out there that Ridley Scott has been pretty clear now recently in saying, yeah, he's a replicant. I mean, if you're not agreeing with that, you're kind of an idiot. But I would argue that, OK, I think he's a replicant, meaning Scott thinks that's the most satisfying interpretation. And he's now basically made it impossible with this final cut for us to think otherwise. but I do think it was added after the fact. Post-mythology rather than pre-mythology, I think it's as if Ridley Scott had decided, I like the mythology of it better and I'm going to embrace it, but it wasn't necessarily there.

35:40Adam Kempenaar:I did hear Harrison Ford say in something though that it was something Scott was talking to him about on the set and he constantly rejected it and would act against that. So that counters my theory. So for me, the best film would be,

35:54Josh Larsen:and this speaks to your question, Michael, does it make it a better film if he is or if he isn't? The best film for me is the one where it is that tantalizing possibility, where we're not being directed or hit over the head with so many clues, maybe given hints, maybe given suggestions. Yeah. And you leave the film wondering. I mean, it's a little dispiriting that this movie has gotten so gobbled up by such a controversy when it leaves no room for wonder. No, not anymore. That's what the best science fiction does.

36:23Michael Phillips:I will also say this. The best science fiction, a lot of it anyway, really doesn't give a damn about how if the narrative's working in conventional, satisfying terms. You know, a movie like Terry Gilliam's Brazil is unthinkable without Blade Runner. And it's got a very different sort of retro futuristic world building going on. But it's similarly amazing to watch and to look at. And that's another one that kind of tells a simple, maybe reductive story just enough to kind of hang Gilliam's preoccupations on. And that's written by good people. Tom Stoppard worked on that script. I mean, it's got a lot of – but it doesn't – it's not a story film.

37:08Michael Phillips:It just isn't. And I think a lot of – Metropolis, Fritz Lang's Metropolis back –

37:14Josh Larsen:Which, if anything, sets the tone for Blade Runner.

37:15Michael Phillips:Absolutely. Which influenced everything we're talking about, honestly. It's, you know, that's a bunch of kind of adolescent hooey. I mean, frankly, on story level, I don't care. You know, and that's, and as much as I admire Blade Runner and have happily kind of reentered its world and kind of puzzled through these questions about, you know, Replicant or no or whatever, you know, just as much, I'm still the 21-year-old I was struggling to kind of wonder, well, what would have made it, what would have made it really haunt my dreams as opposed to just kind of kind of encourage me to seek out its visual rewards, you know, which is a little different.

37:58Michael Phillips:It's, you know, the craft is unbelievable.

38:01Josh Larsen:I think bad is your answer. I mean, that's a very haunting experience that we're thrust in the middle of. And it's a non-human one. And yet somehow the movie in that climax makes it completely identifiable to me. I mean, that is what elevated this for me on the rewatch. I knew it would be visually stunning. I was glad to see that the visuals held up so well. But to recognize that it also had this undercurrent of fatalism that did hit, that did land, was probably one of the more rewarding aspects.

38:33Michael Phillips:Can we at least agree in closing that we wouldn't mind a different composer? Absolutely.

38:41Josh Larsen:The Vangelis score really dates it. I think they're in the sex scene scene. That's really brutal. The only point where it bothered me, to be honest. Yeah, I was going to say I found it to be almost like this alongside the rain, this synthetic storm that washed over the movie, especially when we were seeing any cityscape or having any sort of this immersive scene setting in the world. I thought the score worked really well to have this sort of electronic synth heavy score. But then you take those same musical techniques and put them in a love scene that's already not working and it's disastrous.

39:15Yeah, yeah, yeah.

39:18Adam Kempenaar:Reminder that you can join the Film Spotting family at filmspottingfamily.com. And don't forget to tune in this Friday to hear our Ridley Scott draft with Roxanna Haddadi. Thanks for listening. This conversation can serve no purpose anymore. Goodbye.

39:53We'll be right back.

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