Blue Velvet at 40: Beneath the Surface | #1081

18:40Adam Kempenaar:It marks the beginning of his collaboration, his wonderful collaboration with Angelo Badalamente, the composer, which is going to lead to so many fruitful collaborations. situations but this is the other part i want to say josh and and maybe i'll just start it because we can come back to a little bit and and i can see if this is something you thought about as well as you watch the movie coming off rocky horror last week and we were talking about its transgressiveness the fact that this movie caused such a stir in the public consciousness is noteworthy and I do think it gives it some significance inherently.

19:21But for me, what matters more is something I certainly couldn't have put in perspective

19:28Adam Kempenaar:back in the 80s when I was coming across scenes or even in the 90s when I was falling in love with this movie and falling in love with Lynch. And that's the extent to which Lynch is taking an absolute wrecking ball to the industry of nostalgia that had been built up in the 80s. Now, whether that is Lynch's intent or not, of course, really is ultimately irrelevant. We know now that Lynch is an incredibly instinctual director. I use that word daydream by design. He's someone who feels like it seems as if, and he's described it that way, as if he's translating images from his waking life to the screen, whether they make logical sense always or not.

20:15Adam Kempenaar:So I don't think of him as someone who's necessarily, he's, he's not moralizing a movie like Blue Velvet may or may not be, may or may not be moralistic, but only in the fabulous sense in the way it feels like a fairy tale at times, but he's not a moralizing filmmaker. or he's not a didactic filmmaker. I don't see him that way, right? We know now that he is someone who is in love with the 1950s, the style of it, the music, the language, the whole shebang. And he's someone who might use the word shebang. You know, he likes that silly kind of the lexicon and everything that comes with it. But that's what this movie does.

20:58Adam Kempenaar:All of these films from the 80s that were coming out, that were hearkening back to that time lovingly, and romanticizing it. I do want to dig into this more. Blue Velvet comes along and just says, no, if we peek under the surface, and the movie takes us under the surface quite literally and figuratively, something is rotten. Yes? My name is Jeffrey Beaumont. I live near you. I believe you know my father, Tom Beaumont, Beaumont's hardware store? Sure I do. I understand he's in the hospital. How's he doing? He's okay, I guess. I hope. They're doing tests. That's why I'm home from school. Anyway, I was at the hospital this morning, and coming home through the field behind our neighborhood, there behind Vista, I, uh, found an ear.

21:47You did?

21:49Adam Kempenaar:A human ear? Yeah.

21:51Josh Larsen:I thought I should bring it to you.

21:53Adam Kempenaar:Yep, that's right. Let's take a look at it.

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25:05Josh Larsen:I think it's right that Lynch is not setting out to make a movie with that message, but it doesn't mean that it can't have that resonance. Exactly. Yeah, Lynch is not. On this issue of the moralizing, too, it is funny watching it now, where if you follow the plot and how things work out, I think you're right in a fairytale sense. You could almost say that this is a movie that is in some ways making judgments on some of the actions it depicts rather than celebrating them in that fairytale moral way. Whether that's good or bad, I don't know. This connects a little bit with that Ebert review, the one out of four star review that's a bit infamous because he had a couple of points there.

25:50Josh Larsen:and one was that what you're talking about, he found kind of boring and obvious, the seediness beneath suburbia. He was kind of like, we've done this so many times. Again, that doesn't mean you can't do it again. It doesn't mean it doesn't have particular resonance in the way you're talking about. But for Ebert, that didn't do much. But he, on the account of this transgressiveness, he did not have a prudish response at all. As a matter of fact, he wanted Blue Velvet to be darker. He wanted to push further into the sadomasochism and proposed that Lynch got afraid of that himself and then backed away and tried to be ironic with the humor and the 50s stuff because he was afraid of following that line of sex and violence.

26:32Josh Larsen:Now, I think from what we've seen from Lynch since, I think that's off. I see them more, to your point about him just coming from the back of his brain, more just expressing that and the distress that comes with that than the fact that he wanted to titillate audiences and then got scared. But it's just interesting that Ebert was not one of those who was scandalized by it. He apparently wasn't scandalized enough, which is a take. But yeah, I think for me, that is there and it does make sense in the context of the 80s and the nostalgia that you're talking about, what really clarified for me about Blue Velvet isn't anything necessarily new from my last viewing, but just in the context of, again, of how Lynch's movies work and not being didactic, I just found this to be a supremely guilty movie, a movie drenched in guilt.

27:34Josh Larsen:And I don't mean that the movie is guilty of anything we need to wag our fingers at. it's not necessarily even to, to the point Ebert tried to make. I don't think it's about what you should or shouldn't feel guilty about. I don't know that Lynch or is that interested in the particulars of what happens here. Um, no. And trying to debate the guiltiness of the involvement. It's more that he knows, or maybe these things just emerged in his daydreams, or he knows that these are the sorts of things that people will feel guilty about. And so they're a good avenue to immersing the audience in the experience of guilt, because this blue velvet is about the visceral, the spiritual experience of guilt of how it feels, how it haunts, how it pervades.

28:24Josh Larsen:That's what Lynch is capturing here. and he's using this story of this all-American college kid who gets more than he bargained for when he steps over the line of propriety. That's the entryway to creating a cinematic experience that is all about guilt. Now, what makes Lynch distinct, and this is another topic we can maybe return to, is that he offers something in response to that. I think this is the thing I didn't fully grasp with Lynch until later, much later, perhaps even with that recent watch of Twin Peaks, that he balances the sense of distress and guilt and despair over evil with an inexplicable grace and an inexplicable comfort that is as jarring to us often in his movies as the evil is.

29:20Josh Larsen:And I think maybe for someone like Ebert, he found that aspect false or ironic. I have come to realize it's the, his movies are as deeply invested in that as they are in the evil aspects. Yeah. So, um, yeah, again, that's not necessarily new from what I, when I look back at what I wrote about my first, um, viewing of blue velvet, it's not necessarily new, but I think I came away with this with a greater appreciation for that aspect of it. Hmm.

29:50Adam Kempenaar:I think I can get into the guilt a little bit more, even though that's not necessarily a word I was thinking of much when I watched the film. I think it does make a lot of sense, though. I want to make sure I do explain a little further what I meant when I was talking about nostalgia and what I think Lynch is up to ultimately here or what I think the movie accomplishes. These are not my words. These are not Trump's words, but Reagan's words and echoed in movies of the time and popular culture of the time, this seeming desire to make America great again. And that's misguided for many reasons, including we can think about all of the inequalities and the injustices prevalent in American life in the 1950s.

30:36Adam Kempenaar:and that what's presented in these movies is a fantasy. We've talked about this before with other movies, a little bit with Stand By Me, a little bit with Back to the Future as well. And that fantasy is what's presented at the very beginning of this movie too, this Rockwellian sort of version of life. Lynch, of course, I would say it's pretty obvious, isn't really interested. He's not the kind of filmmaker who's interested in exploring those inequalities and injustices. But what he is interested in is suggesting that at the core of that idyllic American image is that it is just that. It is an image, is something rotten, as I said, something corrupt, something sinister, and perhaps something unknowable, something perhaps unsolvable.

31:31Adam Kempenaar:and perhaps something guilt. Here's where absolutely guilt comes in, Josh, because I think it goes back actually to something bigger. I think you can tie it back to a notion of original sin. I think it is something innate. I think he is suggesting that it is something that lives within every single one of us. And so it's interesting for me as well to think about a movie that we've talked about. I just mentioned it a short time ago. We talked about Stand By Me at 40. That just came out two weeks before this movie. We both liked that film quite a bit then. We like it quite a bit now. We discussed one or two ways that it also, I think, challenges that industry of nostalgia.

32:14Adam Kempenaar:It isn't all just romanticizing. but for the most part it's one of those films that is that is doing just that you have to include it as part of that industry and imagine people watching stand by me and two weeks later and watching all of these films of the first six years of the 80s the big chill and and so many others and then having to reckon with this watching watching blue velvet and and watching you know Reiner here, he's presenting the past and this suggestion that there was perhaps a time of innocence and watching it just be shattered by Lynch with his 1950s. This it's so it's so interesting to watch how it clearly is a product in terms of its its technology, the clothing, even mostly.

33:10Adam Kempenaar:We know we're in the 1980s, and yet it does feel Lumberton feels like it is straight out of the 1950s with the jingles and so many other things. So Lynch is taking the 1950s iconography. He's taking the style, music, other imagery, homages to what's on television, of course, which I found out. I did look this up. Those TV shows that we're cutting to, those aren't real shows. Those were shot for the movie. Those were customized for the movie. And he's effectively saying, OK, if there was ever if there was ever a time of innocence, it was it was very fleeting. And really, it was just something living inside these characters, living inside people like Jeffrey and Sandy, who are very, very corruptible themselves, because they also they also had this darkness within them that they were both pretty ready to exploit, especially Jeffrey more so than Sandy.

34:09Adam Kempenaar:And we can talk about what Sandy represents the story. But the bottom line is the world that Lynch presents here, this this version of the 1950s by way of of the 1980s or this version of the 1980s by way of the 1950s. This is not a world that anybody watching would want to return to.

34:27Josh Larsen:I think that's all correct. I think it resonates in that way. I wonder how much of that was, again, what Lynch may have intended or primarily wanted the movie to be about. Which, again, doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. But the reason I think it's a - To the viewer experiencing it. Yeah, yeah. Sure. In the 80s. I agree with the resonance. But why I think it's important to at least question that is because Lynch has a different - It's not a satirical relationship with a lot of this stuff you're talking about. I think there's an aesthetic appreciation for a lot of it, right? And that comes down to the costuming.

35:04Josh Larsen:It comes down to the production design. Maybe that's nostalgia for some part on his own. Maybe it's purely stylistic. He likes how these things look and sound. Here we go. We're back to Roy Orbison a little bit. And now Orbison had his heyday more in the 60s. I think we can kind of aesthetically we're merging from primarily fifties, but it also goes into maybe early sixties here. And you do get the sense, and this is, this is to his credit. I think this makes him interesting. You get, do get the sense that Lynch genuinely, not in a regressive way of wanting to go back to that time. No, he's smart enough to know and be aware of exactly what you're talking about.

35:47Josh Larsen:Right. But there's some sort of aesthetic appreciation for those elements and not necessarily reclaiming them. But here's a specific example. What is going on when Jeffrey's been kidnapped by Frank and his goons? They've gone to an empty factory yard. They're beating him up while a woman they brought along gets on top of the car and dances out of rhythm, pointedly, to Roy Orbison's In Dream. So what is going on there? It is everything we've been talking about. I think there's an element of satire and subversion, as you've described. Absolutely. By using the song that way. And I think the fact that the woman is dancing out of rhythm is part of that.

36:33Josh Larsen:It's not full. We're not fully in line with that song, right? Something's a little off here. It's because violence is occurring. But I think to your point, there's a little bit of satire going on there. At the same time, it's a great song. and the scene recognizes that. So this is part of the mystery of Lynch is that all of this is going on and this is what makes it feel like a dream, right? We don't have dreams about the falseness of 80s nostalgia about the 50s. We just don't. But we might have a dream about one element of that while the whole time is playing a 50s song that we love. And we don't know, our rational mind can't hold all these things together at once, but our dream mind can.

37:17Josh Larsen:And these are the experiences that Lynch recreates. Yes. And it's why a scene like that, it sticks out in our mind because we don't rationally know what's going on, but we feel something important is going on. In dreams, I walk with you. In dreams, I talk to you.

37:44Adam Kempenaar:that's the duality at play in a film that's about dualities and i think we particularly are susceptible to dualities and actually feel dualities as logical as rational in a dream state and perhaps only in a dream state and lynch lynch is especially effective as a filmmaker at drawing that out. Maybe the only filmmaker. Putting you in that state, right? And a film, and yes, I saw the documentary, didn't rewatch it, didn't have time for that, didn't read anything about it. We reviewed it, or at least I talked about it here on the show. It exists. Lynch Oz. We know The Wizard of Oz is a touchstone for him.

38:30Adam Kempenaar:That was a little bit in my mind while I was watching this. Again, something I wouldn't have been aware of back when I watched this movie originally. It makes so much sense. I think that movie fundamentally is also, I mean, you can talk about it, the black and white world and then crossing over into the color world, the Wicked Witch of the East and the Wicked Witch of the West, right? This is fundamentally about these dualities. It makes so much sense that his next feature is Wild at Heart, which is full on or more explicit, certainly in being a Wizard of Oz homage. But those elements are here to Josh in the fact, well, the 50s homage to we have to say in the fact that the timing of that period 50s Dorothy Valens being like Richie Valens.

39:15Adam Kempenaar:But Dorothy, the fact that she's named Dorothy is key is Frank Booth. Is he Frank as in Frank Baum, the writer of The Wizard of Oz? So she's named Dorothy, but Jeffrey is the one who actually crosses over, doesn't he? From the pure, innocent, good side of the tracks over into the darkness of Frank's world and Dorothy's world and all this sinisterness that she's caught up in. At one point, I swear later in the film, when she's in the bathroom, you see next to her a pair of ruby heels that those are next to her in the blue velvet dress that she is wearing. And and all of this is sort of fun to think about.

40:03Adam Kempenaar:And again, I think it's relevant because of the dualities we're talking about. But I'll tie it back to what you were saying about guilt in some way. one of the things that lynch does differently with this material with this idea fundamentally is that at the end of the wizard of oz i think the suggestion is is that of course dorothy has maybe learned something from this experience but she just gets to she gets to write it all off as a dream she gets to return home everything is right with the world everything is put back in order for her, right? And we'll take another movie from the period, a year before, back to the future.

40:44Adam Kempenaar:When he returns home, everything is not only put back in order, everything is now even better than it was before. Now, I maybe do want to get a little bit more into how we read the very end of the film because I think it's crucial to the movie and how we think about the movie. But I will say that by the end of this film and everything that Jeffrey in particular has been through, but also Sandy and also very much Dorothy. Even though this movie seems to end very much on a happy note, on a triumphant note, the world seems to be in order. The Robins come per Sandy's dream. Maybe not the full swarm of Robins or whatever you would dub them as, but they're there.

41:33Adam Kempenaar:things seem to be put right. Despite all of that, something, I don't know how you can't watch that and think that the guilt and the trauma of what these characters have gone through is going to mark them forever in a way that will obviously change them forever. Things are not put back the way things are put back for a character like Dorothy. David Lynch doesn't see the world that way?

42:04Josh Larsen:Well, we'll have to get to the ending and talk more about that. I think I might feel a little differently, but maybe there's a close read that I missed when it comes to the ending. But I do think he's distinct from other directors exploring some of these themes who we do think about when it comes to these notions of suburbia or even guilt. Hitchcock came to mind to me while watching this and very much interested in guilt, right? Hitchcock. And maybe the closest Hitchcock to this is shadow of a doubt because it has that suburban setting, right? It's kind of doing what blue velvet is doing just decades earlier.

42:44Josh Larsen:And this on my mind, cause it came up on the movie racket with Michael Phillips. They were talking about shadow of a doubt on the most recent episode. I think it's interesting. Hitchcock, I feel like was meaner, or let me say his films were meaner on this notion because they wanted to implicate the audience to make us feel guilty. And there's a perversity to that that he is one of my favorite filmmakers. So I have to admit, I find intriguing. Lynch, however, on this point, I feel like wants to sympathize with us and these feelings. And again, even maybe comfort us. And it's interesting to put him in context of his own era, the 80s.

43:24Josh Larsen:think about someone like De Palma making movies about voyeurism at this time, where to me, that is very much about the object of the voyeurism, right? And where I would say those clearly to me, at least lean more towards exploitation. And this, something like Blue Velvet, which may be as explicit in some ways or disturbing as a De Palma film, I think is more interested in the psychological or emotional or again, spiritual effect of being a voyeur. And then going further as Jeffrey does to being a participant. And so this is kind of related, I think, a little bit to your ending interpretation, because I do see this movie as a depiction of extremes, of great extremes, again, of great evil, and then giving us great goodness.

44:14Josh Larsen:So you have Frank Booth as the one extreme, and you have those Robins as the other. Let's talk about the Robin scene a little bit. that conversation, because I think it's Laura Dern's best moment by far in this movie. And this is when she's out in the car with Jeffrey. They're talking about this case they've become embroiled in. And it's in response to Jeffrey saying, why are there people in the world like Frank? You know, just distressed to your point about original sin. He's not just distressed about the particulars of their case here, but what that represents for the world, right, is what Jeffrey's expressing.

44:49Josh Larsen:Right. And so that leads Sandy to talk about this dream she had about the Robins, which bring, the quote is, a blinding light of love. In the dream, there was our world. And the world was dark because there weren't any Robins.

45:05Adam Kempenaar:And the Robins represented love.

45:11Adam Kempenaar:And for the longest time, there was just this darkness. and all of a sudden thousands of Robbins were set free and they flew down and brought this blinding light of love. And it seemed like that love would be the only thing that would make any difference.

45:36Josh Larsen:You don't get more extreme on the other end of that, of like pure goodness and happiness. I also did one thing I noticed this on this visit when they're having this conversation they've parked parallel to a church and there's this elaborate stained glass windows behind them you can see and if you listen there is actually church organ music subtly playing under this conversation this is not to say you know to try to offer any sort of Christian messaging lynch is you know, he's clearly not coming from that perspective, but I think he's nodding to, again, the cosmic spiritual larger implications of this film noir, gritty film noir story that he's telling.

46:21Josh Larsen:Um, and I think this connects, you know, back to the ending in a way, because when we, you know, why watch twin peaks? Cause I was still at the Christian at the time. And And after Lynch's death, we were going to do a podcast episode and we ran a post about Lynch. Joe George wrote it and he, he, it was called David Lynch offered a piece that passes understanding. Talking about that, despite his troubling content, that his, his movies and Twin Peaks offered this sort of spiritually attuned tranquility to them, which is jarring. And so I do think the happiness of the ending, I think the movie believes in it.

47:02I think it sees it as the counterweight to all the awfulness that we've also seen.

47:11Josh Larsen:And trust me, my instinct is to look for the more cynical, subtly suggesting this isn't really entirely what you think it is. I'm doing something else here as well. I kind of believe in it. I kind of think that's how there are sequences like that in Twin Peaks, where the evil is balanced with just this inexplicable assurance that things will be okay.

47:40Adam Kempenaar:I think for me, that's how Blue Velvet fell on this watch. Okay. I think you're potentially overlooking something very key. Okay. Give it to me. The final image that we see, what I believe is the final image of the movie, which for me is the unlock, even though it actually doesn't it doesn't necessarily invalidate anything you just said. I also believe that Lynch strongly believes in what what you're saying. He's not ironically putting on screen the power of love. I think that the the allure of that is something very meaningful. And the force of it is something that he truly believes in. But what is the human experience is perhaps something a little bit different.

48:30Adam Kempenaar:That's part of the human experience is feeling that. And so for me, I do first want to say that I do really like your point. I was thinking about Hitchcock a lot while watching this again, something I wouldn't have got back in the 90s. And even, you know, you're thinking about a movie like Vertigo and the following around of the characters and taking pictures. And of course, just how much of a platinum blonde Laura Dern is in this movie. You know, there are all these touches like that. The fact that he's walking when he's walking down the street and he starts obsessing, he's going to the house and he's obsessing about the ear and you feel like you're going inside the ear.

49:11Adam Kempenaar:That feels very much like that. zoom into the air we almost exactly yeah it feels like a hitchcockian moment without a doubt but he also to your point hitchcock does seem to enjoy reprimanding the audience he likes scolding us he likes to tsk a little bit and lynch you watch lynch and you feel like he understands he's no different than than any of us and and that's maybe why i enjoy his films even more than i enjoy hitchcock's films one of the thing i want to note about the the scene where you were talking about when they're having a conversation about the robin and the dream later when they express their love for each other it's very subtle but when they express their love for each other what's bad elementi doing in the score it's the chords from the robin's dream that that are played there connecting those two moments.

50:09Adam Kempenaar:It's the power of love coming through there in that scene. And I'm going to go back just for a second as well before I get to my main point. What an entrance, what an entrance that Laura Dern gets in this movie that I think even goes back in a way to The Wizard of Oz because it feels almost like it has the momentousness of Glenda the Good Witch appearing right the way she walks out of the darkness she appears out of the darkness into the light wearing that pink dress and of course you notice how she's always wearing pink at first then she's always wearing blue light blue at first then she's always wearing white she's only wearing those pastels with that light blonde hair she is she is this image of purity and innocence even though she has some of this darkness within her as we all do but the music swells as she comes out of the darkness into the light that's how it felt to me it felt it felt not exactly like appearing in the bubble the way glenda does but but of the scale of the magnitude dramatic of that it's so dramatic right but i'll go back to this and say that the thing about the dream and the Robins there, what really struck me this time watching it is that earnestness.

51:32Adam Kempenaar:And that's what I love about Lynch and his ability to pull off something like that because it isn't ironic and it isn't, I don't think, a case where Lynch wants us to dismiss at all. When you watch it, you see the experience that Sandy is having, the way Dern's performing it, the reaction that Jeffrey is having to it, the way McLaughlin's performing it. I think that might be McLaughlin's best scene actually is, is just the way he's reacting to Dern in, in those moments. I kind of like the chicken walk too, but I'll give it to you. I mean, yeah, inarguable, but I do think here, I'm going to walk a little bit of a line here, Josh, but I think this movie is very nuanced.

52:14Adam Kempenaar:I think that that scene with that music and the way she describes the dream and everything about this, this notion of the Robins coming, everything about it is just heightened enough. It's so elevated and dramatic that I think, I think we can, I did read it as a fantasy within this fantasy, that there's something about it that feels unattainable. And perhaps even a little bit, not with judgment, perhaps even a little bit foolish. It's aspirational. So yes, in Lynch's world, there are these binaries. There is great goodness exhibited in some people, and there is great evil exhibited in some people like Frank Booth, for example.

53:02Adam Kempenaar:I don't think Lynch, though, is saying necessarily that there truly is a choice between them. The aspiration we we aspire as human beings. Some of us give ourselves over completely to the dark side. Others, we aspire to to a life of pure love in the Robbins. But but what love, what love and life really ends up being is something more like the state. Jeffrey, Sandy, and Dorothy and the Robin end up in at the end of the film. And what's that Robin doing at the end of the film? It's gnawing on that bug that makes Jeffrey's grandma recoil. And so for Lynch, what is inextricable is the light in the dark.

53:53It's the coexistence of the beauty and the ugliness.

53:59Adam Kempenaar:And only when you accept that those two things have to merge and that it's not a pure dichotomy, only then can you move forward. And so I think because that's actually the last image. The last image is Dorothy and the Robin is, I think, the penultimate image. Maybe after that we cut actually back to a shot of Sandy and Jeffrey looking on. I take the totality of the film building to that, Josh, and that image of the Robin and that decision to put the insect in its mouth and the insect hearkening back to the beginning of the film and that rottenness as a key decision to show us the collision, the coexistence of the beauty and the ugly.

54:43Adam Kempenaar:And to signal to us that Jeffrey and Sandy and Dorothy, they're all going to do the best they can, just like all of us, to move forward in life being good. But it's going to be hard.

54:58Josh Larsen:I think, okay, so I do have to bring some theology into this because you're speaking my language so much here just with a little different accent. I think that's totally fair and accurate in terms of the human experience and what a lot of the best films I like capture that tension because it is what we know. Right. I think what makes Lynch special is he pushes beyond that to what we hope for. And there's I'm going to separate the Robbins conversation midway through with the ending because there's a phrase that Sandy says there when they're in the car midway through the film. And it's still what we hope for.

55:37Josh Larsen:She says, there is trouble till the Robins come. That's another way of saying like what the Christian story describes is the now, but not yet. So the heaven's not here yet. We see hints of it. The restoration is to come. That's what we hope for. We've been given the promise of it. But right now where we are is exactly what you described. And exactly what most of the movie shows us is people just trying on some cases to do their best and failing. But Lynch is one of the rare filmmakers. I mean, I think like maybe Malick gives us hints of this in the tree of life, which we recently revisited where he's going to push through that and say, yep, at that point of the movie, that's where things were.

56:25Josh Larsen:Malick would just show us the Robin, Josh. At the end, the Robin. He'd just show us the beauty. because the Robins have conquered the corruption, the Beatles. The Robin is literally eating it. It's a moment of triumph over evil. They rely on each other. It has now arrived. There is trouble till the Robins come. The Robins have literally come and they're literally eating the symbol of sin and corruption. I mean, I think it's kind of a beautiful ending and it's so unusual. I think it's beautiful too. too. If you experience that way.

57:00Adam Kempenaar:I just see the beauty differently. I think it's beautiful for a different reason.

57:03Josh Larsen:I think Lynch has done other examples of this. I'm trying to think of when it was in Twin Peaks. And again, Joe George in that Think Christian piece writes well about dissecting Twin Peaks along these lines. And really, it is one of the things I've come to appreciate about lynch is that he pushes through uh earnestly as you said to that sort of hopefulness in potential good um but yeah it's you know that's such an anti imagery going on at the end there's easily

57:35Adam Kempenaar:i don't understand it josh that that's such an anti in some ways to me christian reading quite frankly because how do you accept how do you accept original sin and then suggest that you can achieve the hope that you're trying to achieve? I don't think it's an achievement thing. Well, that's what I'm saying too.

57:58Josh Larsen:No, I think, I mean, I think what Lynch is potentially offering there is, you know, whatever his spiritual perspective is, is a vision of heaven. Like now the blinding light of love has come and made things are right. I don't know that it's anything to do with what anyone has achieved to earn it. And it's not that they've been able to become perfect people. I think it goes back to this instance of grace and how Lynch comes in on these visions of evil. And it is a way that we cannot fathom or fully understand is we've been rescued from that, apart from our own efforts. And I think he's offering a vision of that.

58:42Adam Kempenaar:Okay. The same darkness, whatever lived inside Jeffrey that did bring out in him, even though he felt the tremendous guilt enough to weep over it later, which is genuine. The same darkness that brought out in him the ability to hit her is going to live inside him forever. And everything that he's witnessed in his perversity and his curiosity, that isn't that isn't that isn't salved by the Robins arriving. Not on this earth. Well, that's the only that's that's the only here and now I'm is all I'm thinking about, Josh, as I watch this movie. And all I think Lynch is thinking about when the Robins appear at the end of this film and Dorothy in that final shot.

59:30Adam Kempenaar:as she embraces her son, nothing is ever going to be right again, as hard as she tries. But that's all we can do is try. And that's beautiful. So I see on some level, we could go on talking about this forever probably, and we'll have to table it. I see on some level where we disagree, but I also hear a lot of the things you're saying, and I'm wondering why or how it's mutually exclusive. Like, I guess I just don't think - The Robins aren't ever going to come, but we can hope. We can hope. And Lynch wants us to hope.

1:00:06Josh Larsen:And I think the majority of the movie is suggesting that. And the majority of the movie is the here and now. I think that epilogue is in the hereafter. And I think that's what Lynch has given us. Adam, I don't know if you were aware, but Batman Day, apparently September 19. So a lot of celebrations going on around that at Regal Cinemas. they have a weekend of Batman programming. They're going to do 1989's Batman, a movie we both love, on September 18. Mask of the Phantasm is showing September 19, and then the Lego Batman movie, September 20. So whether you can make one of those Regal screenings or it's another one of the revivals that they regularly do at Regal, if you were a member of Regal Unlimited, you would be able to see that film for free.

1:00:55Josh Larsen:Regal Unlimited is the only all-you-can-watch movie subscription pass that pays for itself in just two visits. Right now, Regal is offering film spotting listeners endless movies for less. If you sign up for Regal Unlimited using code FILMSPOT26, you're going to get 15 % off. Now, Regal Unlimited is the only truly limitless movie subscription pass. You won't see any blackout dates or restrictions for standard 2D movies. Also with Regal Unlimited, you won't just save money on tickets. You'll also save on snacks. Members get 10 % off all non-alcoholic concessions. Sign up now in the Regal app or at the link in our description and use code FILMSPOT26 to receive that discount.

1:01:42Josh Larsen:But we got to move on to some other stuff because we've hardly talked about like a lot of the visuals in here. Well, I want to talk about the humor.

1:01:50Adam Kempenaar:I want to talk. I just want to mention something else that I I saw maybe at the time I responded then because I didn't fully wrap my head around the aspects. not the right word but the way he was not parody but the way he was having fun at the expense of 40s and 50s crime films and some of the some of the voice lynch was was extrapolating from that even in those scenes for example with sandy's father and the way you know when he says things like yes that's a human ear all right that was right that was that was funny then in an unintentional way perhaps to me what seemed unintentional now i watch it and i understand what lynch is up to but yeah but some of those other moments where where now i really react are when for example we get a character saying something about scissors and we get the match cut directly to the scissors actually cutting the police tape right the corner says scissors and we get the scissors cutting or this here again is the earnestness of lynch he he means it yes he's yes he's he's paying homage in a way to these films but he is doing it out of out of love the the grandma i assume that's his grandma saying maybe it's an aunt saying you're not going to go you're not going to go into lincoln are you or past lincoln are you and we know that lincoln has to be the bad side of town right right and the moment they hit a certain street she sandy starts getting cat called and we have to wonder yes well is this lincoln and then and then there's where dorothy valens lives and so then what happens the music swells the camera shows us lincoln you know those kind of dramatic melodramatic touches yes i really love now here's one here's one that i i had to rewind it just to make sure i heard it and it's now my favorite line in the movie when he goes to the house and he's telling Sandy's father, the officer, the detective, what he knows or he's following up on the ear.

1:03:55Adam Kempenaar:I think that's such an interesting scene to watch now, watching it through a different lens, a more mature lens, watching it then and thinking, oh, Jeffrey is just being a little bit curious. You watch it now and you think, you know, if I was walking through a field and I saw a severed ear i don't know that i would pick it up he touches it i don't know that i would i don't know that i would tell anybody about it i think i would move on with my day and pretend i never saw it and he not only picks it up he takes it to the police and then that's the thing though the curiosity he he can't stop himself from learning more from pursuing this dark alleyway in his mind of wanting to know where that goes, what that leads to.

1:04:42Adam Kempenaar:And so he's saying things to the father like, well, I guess I'm just curious. But we know, we can hear that and know that he's really saying something a little bit more than that. Like, I need to know. I need more. Like, he couldn't stop himself from going over there rather than just leaving it in the police hands. And I think, Josh, what makes it even worse is when the father, the detective says something like, not only do you have to not, not pursue this anymore, you can't even talk about it. You know, he basically, so think about that. Then you're telling someone who's already thinking about this.

1:05:18Adam Kempenaar:You have to repress it completely. Right. Yeah. Right. Exactly. Don't think now, now that's only going to make him even more curious and want to pursue it. But he says to him right after that, he goes one day when it's all sewed up, the choice of words sewed up has to be obviously deliberate with the ear cut off. So it's brilliant.

1:05:39Josh Larsen:I think so. All right. I'm one, one humorous touch probably made me laugh the most I'll give you. Jeffrey's family owns the hardware store. So he's working there. And in the background of a conversation is a guy buying an ax. Yes. And I think, I don't even know if he moves it or he's just holding it way up high as if he's measuring it. and about it looks like he's about to bring it down on the two clerks who are there at the cash register i just i just love that as a bit of background visual humor it is great did you have

1:06:13Adam Kempenaar:another funny bit or otherwise just related to that no just related to that i think it's it's there i i'm reading into it that it has to exist to tell us a little bit about jeffrey's naivete that that yes he's very curious but but he isn't that bright and and where how we know that is because he's at the hardware store and double ed walk walk in the two men one one of them's blind right and and he does the whole thing where he asks him how many fingers am i holding up and the guy says four and he he genuinely says i don't know how you do that when anybody watching can see that the other guy's hand is on his back and you don't have to be a brilliant person or someone familiar with magic to understand that the other guy is clearly signaling to him how many fingers you are up it's a great and it's a great twin peak doesn't know jeffrey's jeffrey's stymied

1:07:13Josh Larsen:by it yeah yeah well that's all right go easy on jeffrey um a visual thing that speaks to what we talking about in terms of dreams and how does Lynch do this? How does he make us feel like we're having a dream? And I think one of the ways is, you know how in dreams, things are connected in ways that shouldn't be, but make sense while we're dreaming, right? So there's a visual rhyme here that just works that way. And it comes down to the blue velvet performance from the stage that Dorothy gives. And I mean, Isabella Rossellini, the best performance in this movie, I would say from singing this number to the levels of hurt and yet excitement she has to capture in.

1:07:57Josh Larsen:I mean, it's an incredible performance here though. It's the visuals I want to focus on where we have at this nightclub, the red curtains in the background, the band, when the number starts is bathed in blue lights. Dorothy is in a spotlight so that her fair skin is glowing. And then as the song later in the song, the blue lights kind of move forward or shift so that she's in the blue as well. So you have that color scheme going on later in the apartment for the, maybe the more terrifying moment beyond the Frank attack of Dorothy, but is when she asks Jeffrey to hit her. Yes. Because this is where we're beginning to feel way more guilty, right?

1:08:36Josh Larsen:We're closer to them. We've aligned ourselves more with Jeffrey. He's participating. What, what I noticed is that the eyeshadow she has is so deep blue, her red lipstick. The red lipstick, yes. And it even happens, I think it's the earlier scene actually between them when she nicks him with a knife and then he gets the red on his cheek. So it's Lynch's use of colors as well to what it does is a very dreamlike thing is suddenly things start to connect at a subliminal level that we can't pinpoint or rationally maybe explain though I'm doing that right now, but in the moment, we're not like sure why this all feels of a piece.

1:09:21Josh Larsen:And we've, we've just been drifting in the same, the same nebula this whole time, even though a plot has been moving forward.

1:09:30Adam Kempenaar:That's it. I mean, you can, you can go back and watch it with this in mind and see how blue is very intentionally used to represent whatever, Whatever state you want to assign Isabella Rossellini's character to, this in-between of light and dark, the world that Frank has put her in, whatever damage has been done to her, this traumatic state that she's in, blue seems to represent that in many ways. and one other way that color we've already talked about it with sandy's costume that's undeniable another way it's used how about so crucial the way jeffrey dresses it is it seems like something lynch would do especially going back to westerns from the 40s and 50s that he might have grown up on the notion of the black hat and the white hat.

1:10:30Adam Kempenaar:How about Jeffrey being the good kid, seemingly the good kid, but he's almost always dressed in black. I mean, almost always dressed in black, which seems to indicate that maybe there's a little bit of a bad guy in him. And like Sandy asks him at one point, I don't know if you're a detective or a pervert. That's the question. That's the line. And obviously he's somewhere on that spectrum and he might be more on the pervert side than detective. And I think the black that he's wearing represents that. At the end, at the end, finally, he's wearing white, though he's still got black flex in it. He's wearing black jeans.

1:11:09Adam Kempenaar:So he takes a little bit of a transformation. But Josh, what is so important is if the idea is that he's already got some of this, let's say sin in him, this corruption in him, and it's being drawn out more and more as he interacts with Dorothy, primarily because of what's been drawn out of her, let's say, because of Frank. And now he's interacting with Frank, and that's bringing it out even more. How about the night he meets Frank? The outfit he's wearing, the black outfit, the pants, the shirt, the jacket. when he moves and then frank shows up it's like they're identical they're wearing almost the same black outfit and so it makes perfect sense a short time later in the car when frank says to jeffrey you're like me they they are he he is almost becoming frank in terms of his costuming so those are the things again mostly that's textual that part is but but subtextually he is really trying to indicate to us even through some of these things like costuming of these these transitions that that characters are making one more laugh out loud thing did you notice that both times we get an establishing shot of i think it's arlene's the diner where sandy and jeffrey

1:12:35Josh Larsen:are talking both times the lumber truck goes by logging truck yeah like like it it has like every

1:12:42Adam Kempenaar:time it's gonna it's gonna always cross by the diner that's it's lumberton so you always have to see it.

1:12:48Josh Larsen:Well, and that theme song, the town theme song you mentioned that plays on the radio, I love how there's a little, a solo bit for a revving chainsaw. It's like an instrument. It's like an instrument in the band.

1:13:06Josh Larsen:I do want to say as far as Frank goes, because this is something that I don't know if surprised me, but I didn't really think about it this way before. And I think, you know, Dennis Hopper's Frank Booth might be maybe the first person people think of when you say blue velvet, just because he's so terrifying and Hopper is, it's an absolutely deranged performance, but it is also more than that. And it is, there's that second blue velvet performance that Dorothy gives where Frank, uh, Jeffrey sees Frank there watching and we notice he's, he's crying over it. And not only does Hopper sell that, so it's not absurd or seem like a cheap bid for sentimentality.

1:13:49Josh Larsen:I think he layers the other moments with hints of that. So he's not playing Frank Booth for laughs, I don't think, ever. He seems like a guy tormented by something even beyond himself. And this is very Lynch too, where there is a sense of original sin, but it's also, it's the helplessness that even the worst people have in the face of that. I wondered if, you know, that mask that he sucks on, he tends to do it before his most heinous acts. And to me, it almost registered this time after seeing Frank cry, like he needs that. like there's almost a goodness in him that would stop and not do that unless the drugs pushed his way of manning up evil yeah you know and there was just something there's just a little sure twist to the character there where yes he's clearly the villain and the worst guy and there's a bit of him that's a bit um enslaved by that as well well what about the experience he seems to be

1:14:53Adam Kempenaar:having that we as viewers have to try to decipher, but it's interesting to read on his face when Dean Stockwell is performing Candy Colored Clown.

1:15:03Josh Larsen:Another good example. Yeah, right.

1:15:05Adam Kempenaar:It's different than the experience he's having watching Blue Velvet. And that's what makes the performance layered. It's very different, but you can start to read into that. Is this something from his childhood? Is he thinking about something with his parents? What is he thinking about some other loss that he has had? All of these things have to be running through our head. that Hopper is giving us as Frank Booth, who absolutely could have been a very terrifying and effective one-dimensional villain. But he is not that. And I will go back and watch it now and think more about the moments when he chooses to suck on that gas and whether or not it is motivated by something in particular.

1:15:44Adam Kempenaar:Because I can think about certain times where he's clearly overcompensating for something. yeah his his impotence the the lack of masculinity that he's trying to drum up within himself you know he's he's he's saying things like i'll f anything that moves even though we know he's not going to do that with anybody right like all of those things that he's doing he'll i think he huffs on the gas right before he even says that right so it's like before he he does these big declarations yeah of of who he is and and how how manly and macho he is it feels like he he needs that he needs something to help support him almost.

1:16:25Adam Kempenaar:And maybe there is something to that. That scene too, something, I wrote down two things. I wrote down three things that I just wrote, never thought about. One of them I said already, how Frank looks just like Jeffrey and they look like each other. But also the way, going back to my point about the 80s and the 50s and nostalgia, the fact that frank is this bizarre concoction of both he wants to be daddy but he also wants to be baby and the baby sounds that he makes like he's enacting simultaneously just as himself he's enacting this this twisted 50s fantasy of the nuclear family with dorothy where he's he is simultaneously baby and daddy he comes in he wants his bourbon you know it's the it's that version of I walk in the door from a hard day at work and now serve me.

1:17:18Adam Kempenaar:Right. And that's that actual sound he makes as a baby is incredible. And and the way, you know, he calls her mommy. So it's it's all it's all there. But then Dorothy, too, the way that she and I this is not my domain. I know a lot of people could could explain where this comes from psychologically and and and how it works with victims of abuse. which Dorothy very much is in this film. But the way we see Dorothy act out towards Jeffrey in some ways, the way Frank acts towards her, because she's the one now who gets to be in power. And that first encounter, that very first encounter before Frank shows up, what does she say to him?

1:18:08Adam Kempenaar:She says, don't look at me. She yells at him to not look at her the same way Frank is going to say that to her. So Blue Velvet, a lot going on and a lot more.

1:18:19Josh Larsen:We could probably say I do need to say, give me 30 seconds on Roy Orbison because, um, you know, we've referenced him obviously a couple of times and in dreams is crucial here. The 1963 song. I do want to stress that Roy Orbison, as much as I've come to appreciate this movie more on this rewatch is bigger than Blue Velvet. So I just want to encourage people to, to track him down. I think it's weird. I would have first gotten into Roy Orbison, Adam, ironically, right around 1986, but completely independent of the movie. So this was during my middle school oldies phase. So listening to 104.3 here in Chicago, the oldie station and hearing, you know, only the lonely or crying or these Orbison classics and, you know, really liking them.

1:19:06Josh Larsen:And then he died in 88. So there's a lot being written about him. in 1989, we got this posthumous release, Mystery Girl, solo album, Mystery Girl. It is gorgeous. And I had it then and haven't listened to it in a long time. However, so this watch prompted me to kind of give that another listen. It's no wonder that a dreamlike filmmaker like Lynch is drawn to Orbison because you have In Dreams, which is an older song. But if you look at the mystery girl track list, you have either actual or sideways references to dreams. You have in the real world is one song. All I can do is dream. You is another song.

1:19:47Josh Larsen:She's a mystery to me, which is maybe one of my favorite songs of all time. So, so yeah, if you only know Roy Orbison from blue velvet, I implore you give mystery a girl, um, his 89 release a listen.

1:20:00Adam Kempenaar:I'm really glad you said that. not that i'm a roy orbson fan on the scale it sounds like you are i can appreciate him i can certainly appreciate that voice one of the all-time rock and roll voices and not that this is necessarily the the best use or the best application of roy orbson but if you're not familiar with it and you want to hear just how great that voice is that traveling wilbury song handle with care i love roy orbeson gets his part yeah when he gets to come in and and that voice just rises that is that is where you hear what what only roy orbeson could can really do and to your point about what what you're saying with those those songs the track listing josh this is another thing i had never really paid attention to the part where frank recites the words of in dreams to Jeffrey.

1:20:57Adam Kempenaar:Yeah. You, you do understand why Lynch uses it totally because here's the duality. Again, you read those lyrics one way in dreams. I walk with you. It could be the most romantic mushy thing you've ever heard a boy and a girl, anybody falling in love with each other. And isn't that romantic another way? It's like every breath you take it. It could be, it's a stalker it's menacing as hell it's something it's something like frank booth could say to someone when he says it to jeffrey it's like he is saying you'll never get rid of me i will be in your even even if i die i will be in your head i will haunt your dreams forever and he's using roy orbison to say it yeah great song perfect for the perfect for the movie for sure

1:22:01Adam Kempenaar:blue velvet is currently available on the criterion channel and digital rental it is a criterion collection video or dvd as well i got to watch it that way if you see it if you agree or disagree with our thoughts, we did end up spending quite a bit of time on Blue Velvet. And I guess for a movie, Josh, that I have in my top 10 of all time, I hope I did it justice. I'm glad we at least gave it the time it deserves.

1:22:31Josh Larsen:Was this a Pantheon Project review now or a Sacred Cow?

1:22:35Adam Kempenaar:No, it was actually, yeah, Sacred Cow. But those are technically part of the Pantheon Project or every Pantheon Project is technically a Sacred Cow. Right. That's true. So it's staying in the pantheon, I think we can say. I think it's staying in the pantheon, and we would love to hear your thoughts about it. Feedback at filmspotting.net. Hey, our ride's almost here. Are you ready? Just grabbing my shoes. That's what you said 10 minutes ago. I just dropped a video call, uploading this giant file on my tablet, looking at my watch go bananas with the group chat, and, of course, still lining up tonight's playlist on my phone.

1:23:12Adam Kempenaar:All at once? Yep, story of my life. That's why I switched to T-Mobile. They have the fastest 5G network. Okay, multitasker. I see you. Honestly, I never imagined I could do all this at once. It's awesome. Say no more, I'm totally switching. My post is taking way too long to upload. That's a sign you've got to get T-Mobile. So many reasons to join T-Mobile. Find yours at T-Mobile.com.

1:23:45Josh Larsen:Fastest based on analysis by Uklo Speed Test Intelligence data of national speed score results incorporating 5G download and upload speeds for the first half of 2026.

1:23:56Adam Kempenaar:If you like YouTube, you'll love YouTube Premium. It's destroying. Athlete, creator and YouTube Maxer. YouTube Premium enhances how I use YouTube with awesome features like offline downloads so I can download my favorite training videos before I hit the gym. So no Wi-Fi doesn't turn leg day into loading day. Plus, I get ad-free videos, background play, and so much more. YouTube Premium, it's like YouTube got some extra gains. Try YouTube Premium for two months free at youtube.com slash premium. Hey, what's up, guys? It's Haley Bailey. Okay, I need to tell you about something. I just got YouTube Premium.

1:24:30Adam Kempenaar:It's got tons of awesome features like offline downloads, so I can download my favorite videos before I travel and watch them whenever I don't have Wi-Fi because we all know airplane Wi-Fi is the worst. I get ad-free, I get background play, and there's like a ton more in there. You should try it. If you like YouTube, you'll love YouTube Premium. So try YouTube Premium for two months free at youtube.com slash premium. Trial eligibility varies. Terms apply, cancel anytime. That's a mouthful. Apple Vacations, where your story starts. The Friends and Family Sale is here at Apple Vacations. Book by September 24th and save up to 50 % on all-inclusive vacations with instant savings.

1:25:07Adam Kempenaar:Whether it's a getaway with friends or a family vacation, There's always a reason to make more memories with your favorite people. Travel through August 2027 and start planning your getaway today at AppleVacations.com or with your trusted travel advisor. Apple Vacations, where your story starts. Hello, appliance fans. I'm here at Grand Appliance where Bill just bought a premium Bosch benchmark dishwasher. Talk about your experience, Bill. My salesperson was an appliance genius. She told me about their free install offer on Benchmark Appliances, and it was a done deal for me. Wow, free install from the pros at Grand?

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1:25:57Josh Larsen:Let's take a minute to thank the FilmSpotting family. Membership in the FilmSpotting family is the largest source of support for our show. It does keep us doing what we've been doing for over 20 years now. We want to thank family members, Jack Becker in St. Cloud, Minnesota, and Alexa Dobell in Milwaukee. I'm going to go with Dobell, Alexa, unless you know Adam.

1:26:19Adam Kempenaar:It might be deadly. Alexa has been a listener for so long, such a supportive listener. I feel terrible that now I don't remember exactly. I think she has told us how to say her name before, but doesn't always provide a pronunciation when she writes in, which makes sense. So I'm sorry, Alexa, maybe remind us how to say your name correctly.

1:26:39Josh Larsen:To your point, Alexa says it's been so long that she's been listening. I don't even remember how I found FilmSpotting. My first episode was Sam's last as co-host. So fall of 2007, a random filmmaker Alexa loves, Richard Linklater, a movie that made me a cinephile, Pulp Fiction. As for Jack, he wrote in, I don't recall exactly when I began listening, but I know I turned to film spotting after I first saw Boyhood, a film that I found deeply moving and wanted to hear what proper film critics thought of it. A favorite film spotting segment, listening to the best of the 2010s madness episodes with my wife during a two-week road trip to California.

1:27:17Josh Larsen:So this would have been around February or March of 2020. Unknowingly, our last bit of freedom before lockdown. A random film or filmmaker that Jack loves, I've just recently begun to explore the Powell and Pressburger movies and have been wowed. The Red Shoes in particular is a new favorite. Yeah.

1:27:36Adam Kempenaar:How much fun is that to embark? I remember that marathon and discovering finally Powell and Pressburger. So that sounds great. We thank Alexa and Jack for joining the family, for all their support, for listening to FilmSpotting. You can follow Jack on Letterboxd at TheGinjaNinja, and Ginja is ninja with a G. You can learn more about joining the film spotting family at film spotting family.com. You get to listen early and add free. You get our newsletter, you get complete film spotting archive access. You get to access the discord, which is film spotting family only. I think it's up to 400 over 400 discord members.

1:28:18Adam Kempenaar:now that's fun and after people hear this it will have already taken place but we're gearing up for this week's trivia spotting the return of josh we'll see if it's triumphant triumphant or not you forgot that yeah yeah no i'm sure it will be quite triumphant and it is always fun when we get to see we have we have at least 70 family members signed up for trivia josh all right so it'll be a good crew joining us for that. Again, you can learn more about how to participate in all of the great Film Spotting Family fun, including events like trivia spotting at filmspottingfamily.com. You don't believe we're cursed?

1:29:03Adam Kempenaar:No. We're Owens women. Lovers are undoing. What if you guys were all just a little bit dramatic? Here's the thing about magic. It won't be silenced. Practical Magic, Josh, has become enough of a spooky season perennial that it has earned a sequel. Sandra Bullock and Nicole Kidman are back as the witchy Owen sisters. So are Diane Wiest and Stockard Channing as Aunt Jet and Aunt Frances. I will pretend I know who all of these characters are. It has been 28 years since the original Practical Magic. This one's directed by Suzanne Beer. Could we have waited longer? did we did we need one after 28 years tell us i mean yeah i'm not gonna explain to you i'm glad

1:29:54Josh Larsen:you'll pretend i'm not gonna explain to you who all those characters are the people who want to know they know okay uh no in my mind we didn't need another one i wasn't a big fan of the first one this one it has less of the issues than the first one did which was wild lack of tonal control There's a little bit of that here. It's not quite as egregious. And it was honestly mostly fun to have Nicole Kidman and Sandra Bullock play off of each other in this story, which is quite sweet. but it worked for me about the strengths of a multi-generational matriarchal family. I thought that dynamic, again, with Channing and Wiest being a part of that and the two younger cast members, I like that.

1:30:39Josh Larsen:All those scenes worked for me. And there's something about Nicole Kidman. I tend to forget that she can be quite funny and this gives her a chance to do that. And she is quite funny here. and Sandra Bullock, you know, is not nearly as busy as Nicole Kidman. In my mind, I was like, has she done anything in the last five years? And, and she has, I think, you know, there were a couple of years where she had a release, um, two years in a row, but in my mind, Sandra Bullock doesn't show up much. And every time she does, I'm just kind of delighted that she's there. There's, there's just, no one else has that Sandra Bullock sort of, um, there's a bluster to her.

1:31:15Josh Larsen:There's a bluntness to her. Um, she can be a little bumbling, but never overplays any of that. She's just so refreshing to see on screen. That's still the case here. So that is my lukewarm endorsement of Practical Magic 2. I think if you really liked the first one, you will be plenty happy here. And even if you just like those two stars together, particularly, you'll probably enjoy this. Should it be your priority of movies to see right now? Maybe not.

1:31:43Adam Kempenaar:You also caught up with The Uprising from director Paul Greengrass. It is set in 14th century England. Andrew Garfield leads a rebellion against King James II. It's also allegedly at least our second Robin Hood movie of the year, maybe?

1:32:02Josh Larsen:Yeah, this one's a little more complicated for me. I did not enjoy it. That's clear. I don't think the Robin Hood hints that it gives, the hints are fine. where it takes it by the time the movie ends, I found a little ridiculous, to be honest. My main issue though, Adam, and it is a complicated one. It's more how I responded to what this movie was depicting. And you describe the plot. We get so many scenes of these masked peasants. There's a very early one where they invade a royal office and burn a bunch of documents. Then later they're invading a church and, and, you know, destroying the ornaments in the church.

1:32:47Josh Larsen:And I fully understand that the movie wants us to be complicated, feel complicated about this, right? It positions Andrew Garfield's farmer as sort of the moral center between these violent peasants, even though he's a part of it and the elitist council of the King who is clearly, you know, an oppressive corrupt force. Um, I think the movie doesn't work for one because it's a little hypocritical on the Garfield character front. He's pretty boring unless he is killing people. And then he kind of loses his value as the moral center to my mind. And I'm sorry, I just couldn't help but think of January 6th, 2021 attack of the U S Capitol by Trump supporters during some of these scenes because of the way they're filmed, the Paul Greengrass-ness of it, the chaotic, you're in the moment, which works well in some of his films, is not so well handled here.

1:33:46Josh Larsen:It's more chaotic than anything else. I also had in mind more particular to the fact that this is set in England. It was just a few weeks ago. There was this march of these masked, again, far-right anti-immigrant agitators in Dover, England. That was really scary. And those are the sorts of quote-unquote uprisings that came to mind while watching The Uprising, even though, and knowing Greengrass's other work, I am sure politically that's not the intent of this movie. it nevertheless is opens it up to a sort of manipulability. I can imagine some audiences who are very sympathetic to those uprisings.

1:34:30Josh Larsen:I just described having a hell of a time with the uprising. And maybe that's not fair of me to put on the film, but it's how I felt watching it. And so I did not have a good time with this one. Rebel armies converge on London. 10 ,000, maybe more. who leads them but plowman there will be no peace until we are free

1:34:59Adam Kempenaar:i will mention not that this is in any way a counter to anything you said but i saw your comments on instagram and then probably because i consumed that the algorithm fed me a reel of Andrew Garfield answering an interview question about the movie. And he was asked directly about the fact that the movie uses some of the language, like no kings in the movie. And deplorables. Yeah. And I was somewhat surprised. Deplorables didn't come up, but no kings did. I guess I was somewhat surprised that it didn't seem like he was shoving off the question. And of course, Andrew Garfield is very good at talking to the media and gave a very eloquent answer.

1:35:49Adam Kempenaar:But that's what he effectively did. He effectively sidestepped the question, simply said that Paul Greengrass, that the movie was made, the script was written before that no Kings phrase became part of the lexicon. and they of course discussed well now that it is are people going to think we're trying to make a reference to it and and it's intentional and they decided well they may but we did it first and so we're going to keep it in there yeah it's not intentional and and that's what he said and and so he didn't he didn't then ultimately i guess reckon with the fact that nevertheless the audience is going to make that connection.

1:36:36Yeah.

1:36:37Josh Larsen:And I'm glad you brought that up because I do want to clarify. I have no reason to believe the movie I experienced is the one that they necessarily thought they were making. Sure. Right. Nonetheless, again, I often say once movies hit the screen, they become their own, in a way, living entities. And I think that's happening. That's happening here, at least for me, it did with the uprising.

1:37:02Adam Kempenaar:The Uprising and Practical Magic 2 are both out in wide release.

1:37:07Josh Larsen:Time now for Massacre Theater, where Adam and I perform a scene and you get a chance to win a film spotting prize. Last time we massacred a scene from Bong Joon-ho's Snowpiercer. All right, we're here. Tail section, quarantine section, prison section. Gate, gate, gate. Four seconds when all three gates are open at once. we have four seconds to go to three gates and bust Nam out. Then Nam gets us the rest of the way. Fate depends on this part. That was Chris Evans and John Hurt in 2013's Snowpiercer, written by Bong Joon-ho and Kelly Masterson. That massacre was part of our Ridley Scott draft show with guest Roxanna Haddadi, inspired by Scott's latest, The Dog Stars.

1:37:55Josh Larsen:So why that scene from Snowpiercer?

1:37:58Adam Kempenaar:Here's Julio Oliveira from Austin, Texas, a recent winner of Massacre Theater. I don't think Ridley Scott has made a train movie yet, but his filmography is probably as eclectic as Bong Joon-ho's. John Hurt stars in the most memorable scene from Alien, Adam's first draft pick, and he was warily channeled by Josh in Massacre Theater. And maybe Roxanna has a crush on Chris Evans? We'll have to ask. It's very possible.

1:38:22Josh Larsen:Lisa and Chris from Ayer, Massachusetts, also entered here. I'm a bit stumped on what Snowpiercer and Ridley Scott have in common exactly, other than, of course, their shared dystopian visions of the future. Certainly, Snowpiercer owes much to Blade Runner, the metropolis of its time, since it went on to inspire and spawn so many other dark interpretations of the future. And as of this fall, both Blade Runner and Snowpiercer will be translated into TV shows, with Blade Runner 2099 coming to Amazon Prime in November. SVU will hopefully be on the case. Also, I wanted to express how much I loved hearing Roxanna Haddaddy's thoughts on the work of Ridley Scott.

1:39:00Josh Larsen:She brought such a vibrant and unique perspective to his body of work. I am now determined to watch The Last Duel and Kingdom of Heaven Director's Cut as per her direction. I hope both you and Josh submit to your homework assignments as well.

1:39:14Adam Kempenaar:Yeah, The Last Duel, definitely one I will cross off at some point. Here is Steve Parsons in Longmont, Colorado. I have no connections for you. How do people do that? But I do have a brief story. I watched this with the film club I sponsor at my high school. I'm a teacher. And it became an inside joke amongst the club members to rattle off a baby's taste the best at inappropriate times. We liked the movie. We just thought Evan's monologue with that as a key line was kind of hilarious. If I'm wrong on this massacre theater, this story will be pointless. Turns out. I love that. It had a point. Very good.

1:39:49Adam Kempenaar:It had a point. And Steve, yes, as I said at the top, having just spent some time in a few high school classrooms, I totally get it. Babies taste the best, Josh. Don't forget it. Reach into the It's Not So Brimming Film Spotting hat and pick out this week's winner. Our winner is Sarah Swale from Tacoma, Washington. All right. Congratulations, Sarah. Email feedback at filmspotting.net to claim your very own Film Spotting t-shirt, Film Spotting tote bag, or if you're not already, a trial membership into the Film Spotting family.

1:40:19Josh Larsen:Would the detours so simple? Would the detours so simple? Would the detours so simple? Would the detours so simple? My dear boy, why do you say that? Why do you say twer?

1:40:30Adam Kempenaar:Well, you say it like I said. We move on now to this week's edition of Massacre Theatre. And we were just discussing this briefly off air before preparing as we do, which is not preparing for this scene. And this will be a little bit of a hint. This is a movie that film spotting listeners definitely know. It's a film. I definitely know. Didn't feel like I needed to watch the scene much at all in order to perform it. Certainly badly as I usually do. But I, I don't know about you or Sam or whoever picked it. I think you went off the beaten path a little bit here. I'm, I'm worried about the entries we're going to get.

1:41:12Adam Kempenaar:We'll see.

1:41:12Josh Larsen:I feel like first to your point, this is a key show or a key film in the show's history. But I think where the scene where Sam chose to end it is one of the lines of the movie.

1:41:26Adam Kempenaar:So I hope I feel like especially film spotting listeners should be able to get this. Let's find out. You are going to start it off. So I'm going to give you the action. Are you ready? Yeah.

1:41:36Josh Larsen:And wait, I do have to say, I do have to say just no action. clarification for my performance i'm supposed to spit here derisively i'm going to do my best to mimic that audibly but i'm not again spit on your floor there's a new new studio i'm working i'm not going to spit on this this carpeting here so fair enough i'll do my best there just a little

1:41:58Adam Kempenaar:caveat okay you're not going to commit fully i get it okay and action hey what are you doing here just listening uh-huh all right you got me i'm a scout for the gophers been watching your game for a month but that story right there just clinched it you got heart kid how soon can you be in minneapolis yeah cold winters but they got a great public transit system yeah yeah oh yeah there's a thesaurus in the library yes under why go ahead i'll wait and seen seen i don't know

1:42:37Josh Larsen:Was that quippy enough? I think the I'll wait. You really nailed that. And so, and that's the line.

1:42:44Adam Kempenaar:That's the line. People will get it. If you know what film we just massacred, email the movie's title, your name and location to feedback at filmspotting.net. The deadline is Monday, September 28th. We'll select the winner randomly from all the correct entries and announce it in a couple of weeks. Josh, that's our show.

1:43:02Josh Larsen:You can connect with us on social media by looking for Adam and the show on Instagram, Facebook, Letterboxd, YouTube, Blue Sky as Film Spotting. I'm at those places as Larson on Film. We are independently produced and listener supported. You can support the show by joining the Film Spotting family at filmspottingfamily.com. You can listen early and add free. You'll also get monthly bonus episodes, a weekly newsletter, and access to the entire show archive. For show t-shirts and other merch, go to filmspotting.net slash shop.

1:43:32Adam Kempenaar:Out streaming this weekend, best of the best. two childhood best friends joined their college's competitive Bollywood dance team only to discover that the road to winning the national championship is far more raucous and cutthroat than they ever imagined. The question from Sam is, is this pitch perfect but competitive Bollywood dance? I am intrigued. It's on Netflix, Josh. In limited re-release 1996's Ghost in the Shell, another re-release, Charles Burnett's My Brother's Wedding from 1983. That's playing at the Gene Siskel Film Center in Chicago. Also, you can see the musical about a middle school theater teacher who finds out that his nemesis, the principal, played by Rob Lowe, is dating his ex-girlfriend.

1:44:13Adam Kempenaar:He then sets out to ruin the principal's and the school's reputation by staging a 9-11 musical. Finally, If I Go, Will They Miss Me? Robert Daniels gives that four and a half stars on Letterboxd and says it's an ode to Charles Burnett's thoughtful social realist dramas. Wide release, Josh. Zach Krager's Resident Evil. Yes. Sean the Sheep, the Beast of Mossy Bottom. Are you excited about Resident Evil? Yeah. Oh, are you kidding me? After Weapons?

1:44:42Josh Larsen:I mean, you know, as we've discussed, would I have liked an original film from Krager after Weapons? Yes. But still, I want to see what he does with that property.

1:44:52Adam Kempenaar:We also have The Weight. I'm excited to see this. Ethan Hawke is locked up in a brutal prison. His warden is Russell Crowe. That guy's always locking people up. Come on. He offers him a chance at freedom, smuggle gold out of a remote mine with a dangerous crew of fellow prisoners. Next week in the Film Spotting feed, Monday, it is the movie Racket with Michael Phillips. Tuesday, yeah, Film Spotting SVU will be talking about Best of the Best. Thursday is the next picture show, and Josh, I do know their next pairing. Okay. It's Sorcerer, William Friedkin's Sorcerer, with the movie we just mentioned, The Weight, starring Ethan Hawke and Russell Crowe.

1:45:31Josh Larsen:This is my excuse to knock out an exceedingly shameful blind spot, which is Sorcerer.

1:45:38Adam Kempenaar:Okay. Okay. And then Friday, we're going to lighten things up here. Matt Singer, the author of his new book, Funny Business, The Old School Wedding Crashers, and Knocked Up Virgins Who Changed Comedy Forever. We're going to do our top five. I think we've landed on frat pack comedies with Matt Singer. Yeah.

1:45:54Josh Larsen:Got a peek at the book, which is great. And I have a very good sense now, I think, of this group of films. And I love quite a lot of these. So I think it'll be hard. We have to discuss. We might do a joint list. I think we're going to try to do a joint list.

1:46:11Adam Kempenaar:Even though we have very different senses of humor. So we'll see how that goes.

1:46:15Josh Larsen:This could be the problem. So we'll see. Either way, that will be the topic for next week. Film Spotting is produced by Golden Joe Dessault and Sam Van Halgren. Without Sam and Golden Joe, this show wouldn't go. Our production assistant is Sophie Kempinar. Ariana Martinez is our marketing and social media assistant. Special thanks to everyone at WBEZ Chicago. More information is available at WBEZ.org. For Film Spotting, I'm Josh Larson. And I'm Adam Kempinar. Thanks for listening.

1:46:43Adam Kempenaar:This conversation can serve no purpose anymore. Goodbye.

1:47:18Adam Kempenaar:We'll see you next time. a ti. Qualifying plan required not for extended international use. You must reach out in the U.S. and primary usage must occur in our network. Visit T-Mobile.com.

1:47:28Josh Larsen:This is Robert Smith from Business History. If you're listening to this, there's a good chance you're a small business owner. And like every small business owner, you started with a dream to do what you love and watch it grow. What you probably didn't dream about? Keeping up with cyber threats. That's where MasterCard can help with access to tools that help identify cyber threats to better protect your

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