Bugonia Review, Die My Love, The Mastermind, It Was Just an Accident

30:14And while that's often the case, that's obscuring the fact that they can feel empathy at a greater level than sometimes you or I might, Josh. And so I actually think that that's what you see come through. And we can point to exhibit A, B, and C with that character, with the Don character throughout this movie, where he seems to be exhibiting a greater sense of empathy and compassion certainly than Teddy does. And that line right there that you mentioned is maybe exhibit A of it. Yeah. And certainly in his relationship, how he treats Michelle, we should say, who is, yes, he's hostage, but it's very different than the way Teddy does.

30:58Yes. Begonia is currently out in wide release if you see it and agree or disagree with our takes. And I feel like we're going to get some disagreement, Josh, and we would welcome that. You can email us feedback at filmspotting.net. We may share some of that feedback on a future show. Next up, Jennifer Lawrence and Robert Pattinson in Lynn Ramsey's Die My Love. Cheryl mentioned that you're a writer. I don't do that anymore. Stuck for inspiration? I'm stuck between wanting to do something and not wanting to do anything at all. Die My Love is Lynn Ramsey's first feature since 2017's You Were Never Really Here, with Joaquin Phoenix as a traumatized vet who hunts down missing girls.

31:47The new film stars Jennifer Lawrence in what feels like the former Oscar winner's first role of significance since Aronofsky's mother in 2017. Or maybe I'm just saying that because we haven't reviewed a Lawrence-starring film in that long. Though I think I gave some love to the indie film Causeway, which she's very good in. and she was in the 2023 comedy No Hard Feelings. That may have got a little bit of attention on the show. There's a couple others sprinkled in there. Here she plays Grace, a writer and young mother who is descending into madness. Her husband is played by Pattinson. Josh, before we get into the film itself, I don't know if you have any thoughts on Lawrence in respect to Emma Stone because those are two actors about the same age, Both Oscar winners.

32:35Both have juggled franchise and studio work with auteur-driven projects. Both are gifted comic and dramatic actors, and we almost went with a poll this week. In fact, that was your preferred poll this week, pitting the two against each other. we thought, we being myself and producer Sam, that it would just be too much of a runaway for Stone, really based on the output. So much output and generally acclaimed output from Stone compared to Lawrence in recent years. But if anybody I know would vote for Lawrence, I think it would be you. So maybe some thoughts on Lawrence v. Stone and also, Is it Lawrence and her performance that carried Die My Love For You?

33:23Because she really is what carries this film. This film is a showcase for her. As much as Ramsey's visuals may be at the fore, and as much as we may look at the marketing of this film or anything that we've seen in terms of the trailers, thinking of it as a two-hander with Pattinson and Lawrence, it's really Lawrence's movie. Yeah, I was lobbying for that poll because, you know, as we've said here, polls are pain. And for me, at least, having to choose between the two of them would be quite difficult. I'm glad it didn't win out because now I don't have to give you an answer. If it's not an official poll, I'm not going to tell you.

34:04Uh, it, it, it is maybe something that I'll say this, and it relates to your description of what you appreciate it, appreciate about stone in begonia and calling out a couple lines and her delivery. And I do think if there's a distinction between the two, and this isn't to say one is quote unquote better than the other, but perhaps it's that, that crisp nailing a line to perfection that Emma stone can do. and I think of Lawrence and maybe it's because of Die My Love, here we'll get into it, as more of a physical performer and maybe less about the line deliveries. Now, both of them can do both of those things, but just when I think of them and what pops out first, but maybe I am clouded, as I said, with Die My Love because this is such a performance about Jennifer Lawrence's nonverbal choices in a role that is somewhat familiar.

35:03Yes, the Aronofsky mother comparisons are fitting here. And any sort of other film that exploring a woman who is pregnant or a young mother and struggling with that experience. So she makes this her own, a somewhat familiar part by these nonverbal choices. And I'll just name a few. And even people who've only seen the trailer are going to recognize a few of them. The way she drops down in her kitchen, her torso forward, like this lifeless rag doll, it's repeated. It's for me, like a visceral response to life that it's repeated by Ramsey in a vision sequence as well later, but even more mundane touches.

35:52How about when she's walking around the house and kicking at this loaded laundry basket with this idle manner that it's almost like someone, like a kid would kick a piece of roadkill along the side of the road, just her choice of doing it that way. How about the scene where she's been nursing her son in the middle of the night? Her husband's asleep. It's all quiet. And she just gets up and starts wandering around and one breast is still exposed. It's just like, again, this notion of being in a space, but not really in a space. And Lawrence captures that by how she as an actor inhabits the space.

36:33So it's a gripping performance that I agree with you, as I think you were suggesting, carries this movie, is the reason to see this movie. And it's one that's maybe more about the inhabiting of a body than necessarily delivering words. And saying Timonious means that you think you're morally superior to other people, Demony. Where's your book going, by the way? Fantastic thing! Your great American novel. The main character is about to batter her husband to death with a hammer. Sounds like s***. You can't read, so... Maybe I spend a little less time. I'm writing.

37:07Maybe I'd write something. Maybe. My hands are down my pants because you put your d*** everywhere except there, asshole!

37:19I think you make a really good case there for the distinction between Lawrence and Stone, though I also think about Stone as a physical actress, maybe not as physical, but as a physical actress. And so maybe for me, the distinction is a little bit more about Stone being cerebral, a bit more cerebral versus Lawrence feeling more like an instinctual actress. And that instinct that the way she inhabits her body, which is, I think, where you're getting that physicality from, that's certainly on display here in this role. And that instinct, too, comes from the fact that most of the movie, quite honestly, most of the movie is an exaggeration, but only a slight one, Josh.

38:08It feels like most of the movie she's on all fours crawling around her kitchen or crawling around the grass, right? This movie, a lot of the imagery is animalistic imagery. She's on the prowl quite often in this movie. I have to say, it's funny how this happens somehow, the coincidences and the way things align. And I always point it out, but I can't help it. Randomly, we watched these films and Begonia, and it was just an accident, which we're going to talk about later, have in common abductions by seemingly incompetent kidnappers, cases of mistaken identities. this weekend. I also saw Die My Love.

38:54And before that I saw If I Had Legs, I'd Kick You, the Mary Bronstein film. So I saw two movies about moms. And how did Mariah Gates and I put it a year or so ago? Moms going through it. More than going through it, these are moms losing it, right? Moms absolutely losing it. And the movies even use some of the same imagery, Some of the same abstract imagery. I like the, I like the Bronstein film a lot more than I like Die My Love. Something, something unique happened, at least unique for me. I can't remember another time this has happened. I saw the trailer for Die My Love for the first time the next day, after I saw the movie, I saw it before I, I watched Begonia and it actually watching the trailer actually captured my exact experience with the movie.

39:48Unlike trailers that try to summarize what the movie is about and capture the narrative, if you will, watching the Die My Love trailer actually, for me, felt exactly like what it felt like to watch the movie. The elliptical form, the visual and stylistic propulsion of it, the absence of story or meaning, really, unless you're deriving meaning from the style. It was as if, Josh, the Die My Love bottle had been distilled into a potent shot. And I don't mean that as a cheap shot, like just watch the trailer. It's a glorified trailer. No, of course, the movie justifies itself. Ramsey's too good of a filmmaker and Lawrence and Pattinson are too good as performers.

40:36But I didn't derive any more pleasure or more meaning necessarily from the movie. Its narrative never catches up to its elusive, occasionally unsettling imagery. It didn't for me. It does go somewhere that the trailer doesn't, and we won't spoil that, but it goes somewhere that I would say, again, Ramsey, another filmmaker interested in bleakness, like Yorgo Slanthimos is. They're different in many ways, but I think they share that in common. And this is decidedly bleak also because we're giving context for these directors' careers. In this case, she's adapting a novel from 2012 and working with co-screenwriters Alice Birch and Enda Walsh.

41:28But it did fit nicely with a lot of her other pictures. For me, Rat Catcher, Morvern Caller, You Were Never Really Here. and we need to talk about Kevin. Adam, I struggled with Lynn Ramsey's films and I felt I owed it to her before seeing Die My Love and especially her being a Scottish director. And I was ashamed to run into people here in Scotland and say that I haven't seen all of her movies. So I've been playing a little catch up and did watch Rat Catcher and Morvern Caller. And I gotta say, I'm glad I saw Morvern Caller. I think it's my favorite of hers, though it is not a film I'm hugely enamored with.

42:10Rat Catcher, I found quite distressing in its obsession with miserablism. And I think you can see that in some other choices she makes as a filmmaker. Now, I think Die My Love is maybe my second favorite film of hers after Morvern Caller because, well, two things. It has a bit of a focus. I actually thought narratively in choosing this story of a woman's particular experience with postpartum depression, a severe case that gave the movie a specificity and a locale and a focus and something other than just pure misery to consider. And so I did appreciate that about it. And I think Morvern Caller does as well in this character played by Samantha Morton.

42:55I won't get into the plot, but I read that as an exploration of grief. Okay. And so these were, these were some more specific things that the misery could be hung on. So I did appreciate that about die. My love, but it did not win me over really to become someone who is as enthusiastic about Ramsey's work as I know so many people are. So I'm a bit disappointed in that also maybe a bit disappointed in that Pattinson wasn't used a little bit more. I'm fine with him being second banana. I think he's the, the generous sort of actor who is good, is good at that. And I think he's, he's good here, but maybe he's too good to do it here.

43:35By that, I mean, when you have someone of this caliber, it can be a bit distracting when they're not given a little more to do, even though they shouldn't be in this particular movie. Did you follow that? Does that make any sense at all? It makes perfect sense. Too good to do it here is a perfect summation, Josh, because besides working with Ramsey, which I can understand why an actor would want to do that, and working with Lawrence, which I can understand why an actor would want to do that, I am still a little bit mystified about what drew him to this character, who I think has very little to do except express slightly different variations on concern, confusion, and dismay at his wife's behavior.

44:19There's very minimal development, And there's there's just minimal to this character. As I said, this movie is a showcase for Lawrence. So I I watching it really felt like Pattinson was wasted as a performer. And I think Lawrence, to some extent, is wasted, too, because I think she's working very hard with very little on the page. And I think there are moments where the actress and director are in perfect sync. Even the opening sequence, I really enjoyed the introduction, the static take, this long take Lawrence and Pattinson arriving at the house that they're moving into the camera, just sitting there as they move about the space.

45:04It felt, it felt so appropriate them trying to get comfortable within it. And they never really are. And just how it brought me into the world and introduced me to those characters while also showing me that something is just kind of off the vividness, the two vividness of the colors. And the lens felt like it was just subtly elongating the frame vertically a little bit. And so it's reality, but it's also a hyper sort of reality. I thought that all worked really well. But Josh, go ahead and jump in. I was just going to add, because I agree with you about that observation about that opening set piece.

45:41And part of it for me was a brilliant piece of set design, production design. You see three layers of wallpaper because you're looking from a back room into other rooms out the front door. And it was distressing for me to notice it's something like a floral pattern, but each room has a different one. And it was so disorienting and captured exactly what you're talking about. So I just wanted to throw that in. No, and that is like the entire film, disorienting by design. And to go back to my point about the trailer, it all feels like a memory inside a dream, something emanating almost from within her characters, from within Grace's fractured psyche, except the narrative isn't framed that way.

46:26So there's this constant disassociation with reality as a viewer. I was watching this film thinking for a while, what state are we in? What literal state are we in? What decade is it? Forget what year is it? And you mentioned postpartum depression. Absolutely true. But also the way that's handled is also something that didn't feel like it was being treated like in any reality or like in any reality within the modern day. so that added to that further state of of disassociation for me that that further state of confusion and you almost wondered actually whether or not the movie wanted to suggest that there was there was unstableness with her character that predates the postpartum depression because it's treating of its treatment of postpartum depression felt so so abstract like so so much of the film otherwise did to me.

47:25I found it hard to grasp in a way that I understand to some extent the movie's trying to be, but also I thought, here again, I thought was too elusive. And also some of the imagery, some of that imagery is really compelling, and then some of it felt overdone. All of the animalistic on the prowl imagery, the don't worry darling-esque trapped in a cage trapped in an aquarium, reliance on glass and her behind it and going up to it. I had a hard time as much as I wanted to get on the wavelength with this film because of some of the imagery that was really vivid and because of the performers. I had a hard time getting on the wavelength with Die My Love.

48:08This can be a tricky thing when it comes to imagery and using symbolism in movies and Ramsey is absolutely a gifted eye. You can see that right away in, in rat catcher, knows how to capture arresting imagery at the same time. You can see a shot that just jumps out at you and feels like a thud and another person might find it very deeply resonant. I do find in her work that you get both. You'll get some thuds there with the resonance. And in this case, there's something interesting going on where a lot of the daytime scenes are very vivid in a way you described. And then she chooses this monochrome for the nighttime scenes that I think are also used for potential visions at times.

48:57That's where the movie is sort of playing games with us. But one of those visions, I got to say, if an argument between this couple is she's complaining They don't have sex enough. And then that night she looks out into the yard and a stallion is racing past. For me, that's a bit of a thud. I got to say. Die My Love currently playing in wide release. If you see it, we would love to hear your feedback. That email, as always, feedback at filmspotting.net. Adam, let's take a quick minute to thank a Film Spotting family member for being part of the family. We want to thank Karsten, who is in Cologne, Germany.

49:37And Karsten's been listening longer than I have, to be honest with you. He started during the Maddie ballgame era. And his favorite segment from Film Spotting, he wanted to share, well, this does come from my time. It was the Apu trilogy that we did during our Satyajit Ray marathon. We did ask Karsten which review we got wrong. He gave this reply. We're going to have to kind of figure out what he's saying here, Adam. before sunrise amongst the greatest films ever. So is he suggesting you're the one I'd love before sunrise? I mean, come on. I'm, I am all in on before sunrise, but I'm not the one who has it on his top 10 of all time.

50:19So is that a complaint about your placement? Yeah, that's, that's what it seems like. And I am now not inclined to read or to further thank Karsten. Maybe we should just Stop there. Wow. No, I guess I will thank Karsten for being a family member for all of those years of support, despite apparently my silly opinions about movies like that one from Richard Linklater. In addition to keeping us doing what we're doing, family membership comes with perks. You get to listen early and ad free. You get our weekly newsletter. You get exclusive opportunities like being part of the Film Spotting Family Discord.

50:57You get monthly bonus shows like you get to hear the entire Tom Cruise draft with family members that cook. You get to listen to that draft and then vote for the winner. And you get to make sure that Josh finishes last in that Tom Cruise draft by design as I designed it. There you go. November's bonus will be an ask us anything. That means you get to ask us. Well, anything. We may not answer it. We don't answer anything, but it's called Ask Us Anything, and it's not exclusive to family members. The show is exclusive to family members, but we might answer a question from anybody. So you can send us a question, feedback at filmspotting.net, put Ask Us Anything in the subject line.

51:43That will be November's bonus show. If you'd like to learn more about joining the film spotting family, you can learn more at film spotting family.com. And I know this seems kind of silly to do after all these years, but we really like to maintain that very high score we have at Apple and Spotify. I think on Spotify still after hundreds, not as many as Apple because Apple goes back 20 years. But after several hundred reviews, we still have a five, I think. And the Apple rating is 4.6 or 7, Josh. So pretty high score on both platforms. And those reviews do help us reach new listeners. So if you have not ever taken the time to rate us or to write a nice little comment, hey, maybe take the time to do it.

52:30Why not? Movies you might be able to check out for free right now as a Regal Unlimited member. Marty Supreme, number nine on Alison Wilmore's list, an 11 through 20 pick for me. incredible performance from timothy chalamet that is playing right now at regal and we've talked a little bit about some of these picks we've highlighted some of these repertory movies the limited engagements josh that regal has been showing at some of their theaters and i'm looking at regmovies.com and they have a limited engagement right now for its what is it it's it's 40th anniversary? It's 30th. Okay, only 30 years.

53:15Shouldn't age it like that. 30th anniversary of a movie I somehow, I can't believe I'm admitting this, I have somehow never seen this film, despite the fact that it stars two incredible actresses, including one who I've always claimed to be a huge, huge fan of. And I may have to rectify this now by seeing it on the big screen, getting a chance to see it on the big screen at a Regal Cinema. Sense and Sensibility. Ang Lee. That's a way to do it. Great director, too. Kate Winslet, the actress I'm referring to, the great Emma Thompson. Never seen Sense and Sensibility. And if you're like me, maybe you're embarrassed about it, like me, you can check that out now at Regal Cinemas and maybe see it for free with that Regal Unlimited membership.

54:05Regal Unlimited is the all-you-can-watch movie subscription pass that pays for itself in just two visits. And Regal is offering film spotting listeners endless movies for less. All you have to do is sign up using the code filmspot25. That's filmspot25. And you'll get 10 % off a three-month subscription. It is the only truly limitless movie subscription pass. And you don't just save money on tickets. You also save on snacks. You get 10 % off all non-alcoholic concessions. You get to see any standard 2D movie anytime. no blockout dates or restrictions. We encourage you to sign up now in the Regal app, or just click the link in this show description and use that code film spot 25 to receive your discount.

54:59You don't look like cops. Say James, we've been told that you're mixed up in this robbery. I sure don't know how you got down this road. You got the wrong idea. I'm afraid you got some bad information. You're listening to Film Spotting. Kelly Reichert is back. Josh, the Mastermind stars Josh O 'Connor as not much of a mastermind. In fact, not much of anything at all. O 'Connor's J.B. Mooney is an unemployed carpenter, a husband and father, I guess, in name. And he is a schemer. It's 1970, Western Massachusetts. Mooney decides to try and pull off an art heist. Also in the film, Alana Haim, Hope Davis, John Magaro, and Gabby Hoffman.

55:44Reichert's previous film was showing up, set in Portland, Oregon, in the art scene there. Here we are on the complete opposite side of the country, but art is obviously still in the mix for Reichert. What did you think of the mastermind? Let's keep the acting talk going here on this show, Adam. I mean, Josh O 'Connor, I don't think his performance here is going to get as much attention as others that have been taking place in this breakout run he's been on, definitely Challengers, probably even something like the upcoming Wake Up Dead Man, the Knives Out film, the trailer I have seen for that.

56:19And I think there are livelier moments for O 'Connor in that trailer than you get in almost all of the mastermind. But man, did I think this was an incredible performance? And I think it's partly incredible because he's playing someone who doesn't want a lot of attention. So how do you do that and still be able to hold the audience in your thrall? And O 'Connor pulls this off. I mean, this guy he's playing is sort of maddening. I at least found him maddening because he is in personality, I think naturally unassertive, especially with his family. That's just his nature. But then he's also consumed with this plan to pull off this robbery, this daytime robbery at this museum.

57:06So that's where his attention is. And he's kind of laying low. Yet I was riveted by the way O 'Connor gives us this portrait of unraveling self-delusion. And he's doing it by balancing that outer reticence with this inner confidence that this guy has, even though he probably shouldn't. And then as things go wrong and the walls start closing in on him, O 'Connor brings these two qualities together. So that outer reticence and the inner confidence start to meet where they're going to conflict. And then we see within him what the result is. Just hear me out. It's a big life-changing opportunity for me.

57:51But I have to rent a workspace and purchase tools, which I don't have. That sort of thing. And this is real? Mom, it's real. I love this movie. I'm so glad we have this on the show because we were both mixed to negative on the other two films. And I think this is just fantastic. I'm hoping you feel the same way so that we can throw some praise around for this segment. Definitely praise and definitely more praise than the previous two films that we've talked about. But I feel like this is a movie I need to see again before I'm ready to put it up in the upper tier of Reichert films. And look, I don't think I've been negative on a Reichert film.

58:35So she's one of those filmmakers where that means something to say it belongs in the top tier. I really do like O 'Connor's performance in this film, but also think it's casual, appropriately casual and laconic to the point of disinterested, almost. And that's appropriate, as I said, because that's how the character is. And he almost does, I think you were touching on this, he almost does want to be, by design, he wants to be overlooked. He wants to be ignored. But he also, of course, wants to pull off something. He wants to achieve something. He has a certain ambition, but he needs to also fly under the radar and not be seen.

59:23And that's the interesting tension with that character. But it is also then a very subtle performance. I'm more interested, Josh, in his character than I am the performance. For me, this film is a quiet evisceration of entitlement. And I wonder if you see the movie similarly. The way I would like to turn it around and frame it to you, and there's a scene in the movie involving the art that I think encapsulates this question as I'm going to pose it to you. I don't think or I can't recall a Reichert movie where I've ever felt as if Riker the filmmaker, the writer, director, director, doesn't like, doesn't admire her protagonist.

1:00:26And I wonder how you feel about that question as it applies to J.B. Mooney. Do you think that Reichert, and then of course, as it applies to us then as a viewer, what do you think about how Reichert feels about Mooney? Does the filmmaker here have any admiration, any morsel of respect, or is this a character who might be unique in her filmography where she's using as a vessel to tell a different kind of story and to have us consider a different kind of point? She's using as that vessel a character who has perhaps not a single redeeming quality. Hmm. Well, my answer would be, I think it's a continuum if you look across her films and there's certainly are, there are those lead characters where she is at one with, I think of Michelle Williams and Wendy and Lucy.

1:01:31I think of maybe a couple characters in certain women. And this is Michelle Williams again in Meek's cutoff, I would say. And now let's look at Michelle Williams in showing up. This deeply unlikable artist, I think, is on the other end of the continuum. I think maybe the Echo warriors slash terrorists of Night Moves are on the other end of the continuum where she is conflicted about them. And you're probably right. I would put JB at the far end of that continuum. But there was a very notable touch to me in this movie that even if he is at that far end, I don't think he's entirely meant to be eviscerated or taken down.

1:02:16After he's miraculously successfully pulled off this heist and gotten the paintings into his house, he's home alone. You know, his wife is at work. The kids are at school. He's unpacking them. What does he do with one of these Arthur Dove paintings? He hangs it on the wall above the couch. And right there, we've been told he's a former art student. And right there, you understand there's something else going on with this guy. Overall, I take your point, but I think it is more nuanced. And I do want to hear more about, which I'm assuming you're going to get to. I want to hear more about this entitlement idea because I'm guessing it's related to something else I want to touch on.

1:02:57Well, first, I'll say on your continuum or the spectrum, I agree that it's on a spectrum, but conflicted is good. Conflicted is human. I expect Kelly Riker to write characters who she has conflicted feelings about, who have nuances to them and depth. And yes, of course, if she has characters who are doing or committing acts of eco-terrorism, she probably personally may have conflicted feelings about that, right? And she may feel a certain way about some of Michelle Williams, her character's abrasiveness in showing up that she may feel is completely absurd. And she would never in her own life treat someone that way.

1:03:46Or maybe, I don't know, Kelly, I've interviewed her three times, but I would never speculate about who she is apart from that. Maybe that's exactly how Kelly Reichert is as an artist. And she sees herself one-to-one in that character. And that's why she wrote that character, right? And so there could be a lot of layers to that, which is why I find this character so fascinating, though, because I can't find in him much conflict that brings about any case for him being good. He's not evil. He's certainly not evil. And yes, of course, I think he has basic human decency when it comes to taking care of his kids and having feelings for his wife.

1:04:30But that's a that's a relatively low bar. And that scene you mentioned, Josh, is the scene I was alluding to earlier that is at the crux of it for me. it's the one that I've been wrestling with because depending on how you interpret it it determines how you view his character and maybe how you answer this question and you gave me your reading and you gave me your answer and I have decided I see it differently it's that scene where as you said he has stolen the art he has it at his house everybody leaves he gets it out He is looking at it in the room. He's sort of just getting it out, letting it breathe, if you will.

1:05:12And then what does he do? He gets it out and he puts it on his wall. He frames it on his wall and he looks at it. And in that moment, you could read it. And I certainly considered this. Like, he is that art student, that former art student. He's an appreciator of art. He's someone who you may believe is going to the museum every day, not just because he's casing the joint, but because he deeply appreciates the art. And here, he just wants to feel what it's like to take it off that wall and to be able to see it in his own living room, to see what that painting looks like on his wall, to feel that.

1:05:51And in some way, that's noble might be too strong of a word, but something close to noble. There's the other side to that, though, which is the entitlement side, the notion that he feels as if he's entitled to take. Obviously, he feels like he's entitled to take it, but lots of people steal things and have a reason to steal things. He feels as if he can take that painting. And it's not just because he came up with this, this whole heist concept and he's going to fence. He's going to move it through his fence and he's going to collect money for it. No, he also believes that he should be able to put that on his wall, that, that his, his house, his, his little museum, he should get to feel what that's like to see it on his wall and deprive everyone else of that experience.

1:06:49His experience is more important and should be primary over anyone else's experience. And the thing is, that's consistent with his character throughout the movie. He obviously puts his feelings and his desires ahead of his children, ahead of his wife, ahead of his mother and father the entire film. He uses those around him when it comes to getting what he needs for that heist to be pulled off. He certainly depends on other people later, depends is not the right word. He exploits or uses other people later just so he can survive. He accepts no responsibility or accountability at any point in the movie.

1:07:37And moreover, Josh, what cued me into this is Reichert throughout the film is constantly showing us the setting really is what matters. She shows us and makes sure we hear that all around him, on the TV, in the bars, in the newspapers, on the radio, the entire world is happening around him. Real people are having real problems. Real wars are happening. All the people who are not as privileged as him are really struggling. And because of his position in life, because of the certain privileges that he has been born with, he gets to continue on with his solstice existence. And I think that feels to me like what this movie is about, ultimately.

1:08:30I do want to get back to the Vietnam War background, the protests about it. I think that's key to the movie. And you're right. They're continual throughout on the radio, on television. He runs into an actual protest on the streets, right? At one point, I don't share the same reading of him. I can understand it. I do think we are given other details about him. However, there's a conversation early on where they're having dinner with his parents and the whole family is together with his parents and his dad is asking him. Basically, we learned his dad as a judge, like business questions, basically like get your act together.

1:09:04Somebody else your age is, you know, making money. I saw Kip's father today. He said Kip has projects all over time. He spends all his time balancing books, scheduling on the phone. It's an idiotic way to spend your time. Well, you seem to have a good amount of time on your hands. And we've learned that JB, as far as we can tell, just sits around all day. His wife goes to work, kids go to school. And I think that's related to, entitlement is part of this, absolutely. but he's also, you know, he has an artistic spirit and he can't quite bring himself to be a part of the money machinery, right? Now, he doesn't have to, he's privileged in a way and that connects to your entitlement, but it also speaks to, he's maybe not in his mind made for that.

1:09:55And maybe he should be, it's time to support his family. But I think it speaks to something other than solipsism is that there was a kernel of appreciation for art, which I think is, that's why I read the scene differently with the painting over the couch. But I do think the entitlement thing is related to Reichert's filmography in general and what I thought she might be doing with JB here as a character. And I just want to reiterate, I think you were so fascinated by this character because of the performance. I think if you put a lot of other people in this performance, none of these ideas we're debating would have sparked quite as much.

1:10:35So I think he's well-written and just beautifully performed. But if you look at Kelly Reichert's films, her movies poke at the American project. Almost all of her movies poke at the American project. Now, you can say she's poking at Manifest Destiny in Meek's Cutoff and First Cow, notably the period pieces, the distinct period pieces further back. She's poking at capitalism and something like Wendy and Lucy and night moves, right? And JB, to me, entitlement's a part of this. So we're circling the same ideas here. He is a particularly American fraud. And here's where the Vietnam War protests in the background are so crucial.

1:11:20Just like that debacle, which was a projection of American dominance that utterly failed. It failed the Vietnamese. It failed the American soldiers who were sent to fight there. JB is oblivious to his own failings and missteps. As you said, he never takes responsibility, even when he has to go on the run. He carries himself like, why is this happening to me? What's going on here? There's some sort of injustice is too strong of a word, but annoyance. It's because JB is this characterization, this person that is holding up, as Reichert's films, I would argue, tend to see the American project as inherently a fraud in so many ways.

1:12:10And in this character, in this story, which is loosely based on an actual theft. In this time period, she's found a compelling way to move that project forward a little bit more. Yeah, I think he can expose, and he does, American exceptionalism, expose it for the myth, the fraud that it is, by not being an admirable anti-hero, but by embodying unexceptionalism, which is what his character does in this movie. And I know the moment you're referring to earlier, Josh, and I read that scene initially the same way. That's very early in the film. That's the moment when we meet his parents and you feel like, oh, that's the dad.

1:12:56That's the crusty dad who's comparing his artistically minded son to the guy who's more commerce oriented and And the son is more artistically inclined and that's not really fair. And and we're going to we're going to see that this guy is actually is is better than his dad is giving him credit for. The problem is that that's not what the movie bears out. The movie bears out that he is the fraud that you called him and that that is the con. That is what exactly what J.B. Mooney, what he says to his dad is exactly what he wants his dad to believe. exactly the line of BS that he sells everybody. It's that, well, that's not the work that I do.

1:13:41My work's more meaningful. No, you don't do work. He doesn't do any work. It's an excuse to not do any work at all. That's the problem with this guy. I don't think there's anything redeeming about him at all. And that's what makes it fascinating. I think it can be both. I mean, I think like Reichard would only be interested in a character who is both. So there's a kernel of that. So for me, Khan is going a little too far. I mean, yes, he has to be involved in a Khan to pull off a heist to a degree. But if anyone, he's just conning himself more than anything else. I do think there's a kernel of artistic interest and expression.

1:14:19He's just never been able to follow through on that. So I think he's being genuine to a degree when he's having that conversation. We should say the dad, because he's very good and does have a few crucial scenes played by Bill Camp here. I do want to call out one other thing, which is maybe for all the praise I've given O 'Connor, my favorite thing about the mastermind. And that is Rob Mazurik's audacious score. And at first I thought it was just going to add something fun. I'm with you there. Because when we first hear it, the opening scene is JB and his family are at this museum and he's doing a practice, not even a heist, but he's going to steal a little figurine.

1:14:56and there's an insert shot of his finger lifting the latch of the case that this figurine is in. And if I'm remembering correctly, the instant we see his finger is the first time we hear this score. And it's this jazzy riff that reminds you of Ocean's Eleven, right?

1:15:20Fun. Great. That's, you know, enjoying that. But that fizziness quickly fades in the movie. And that's when this score becomes brilliant because the sequence that JB is driving to the museum on the day of the heist, and then all during this extended theft sequence, the score strips down to be only percussion. So we get these antsy poking like snaps and snares. And then it reappears later in certain moments of the film, brilliantly used by Riker, brilliantly composed, just bringing about this anxiousness and despair. And I'm sure there have been other instances of, you know, percussion only jazz scores here and there that I'm not thinking of, but, but man, did this feel fresh and just so fitting for what this movie was trying to do.

1:16:10I'm so glad you called it out for me, one of the highlights of the year, and certainly one of the highlights of the year when it comes to the use of music in a film, not one of my highlights of the year, the Alana Haim character, the wife in this film, you want to talk about a character who feels completely on the fringes and has absolutely no role in this movie. I didn't, I didn't really understand how that, how that character was, was portrayed or depicted because I didn't feel like there was anything to portray. I don't know how you felt, Josh. Yeah. I was trying to figure out if that was a matter of, of performance or being underwritten.

1:16:49Of course, we know from Licorice Pizza, Alana Heim is very capable of being a captivating screen presence. Probably just a scene or two more between the two of them, or even perhaps her alone with the kids. The two kids are incredible, by the way, brothers, Jasper Thompson and Sterling Thompson. But yeah, I'd agree. Probably that Alana Heim character, not a strength of the film. the mastermind out in limited release. We have a mastermind prize to give away a prize pack courtesy of our partner Mubi. It features items from the film's fictional Framingham Museum of Art. So you can take the art and just like J.B.

1:17:32Mooney, you can frame it at your house or apartment and I won't judge you for it. How about that? For a chance to win, all listeners had to do was send in an email with their favorite Kelly Riker character. We're going to feature some of the responses here, Josh, and then we will announce the randomly chosen winner. Why don't you start us off? Michael Powell was brief. King Lou choosing character from First Cow, of course. Good choice. Here's Matt B. in Durham, North Carolina. I'm going to maybe go a little bit off the beaten path with my pick, but my favorite Kelly Riker character is the one played by Lily Gladstone in Certain Women, just credited as the rancher.

1:18:11I find her absolutely fascinating, and that's probably mostly due to Gladstone's performance. We don't really know much about her character other than that she lives this solitary, repetitive life and then suddenly finds a human connection with the character of the lawyer, played by Kristen Stewart. Certain Women is probably pretty low in my Rikert film rankings, but Gladstone's character is probably the one I think about most often. Well said. Yeah. I mean, talk about building a full life out of only a couple of scenes and few words. Man, Gladstone is incredible. there. Here is Jeremy Kinney from Lansing, Michigan.

1:18:45I was shocked Adam wouldn't suggest it, so I will. Lucy, such a good dog. You know, Jeremy may have me pegged here incorrectly. There are two people associated with the show who are dog guys, and I'm not one of those two. I don't own a dog. So if anybody would be Josh, who would go Lucy? I was going to say, have you come around and gotten a dog and haven't told Sam or me, but you told Jeremy? No, though that, that is a bit unfair to me. I did. I did have my dog Ellie for 16 years, but she passed, she passed in 2021 and we have not replaced Ellie Tom sticking with that theme. My favorite Kelly Riker character is cookie from first cow.

1:19:28Since choosing the cow would probably be cheating. Well, here we go from Damien. I'm going to go with cookie from first cow. So some agreement there. Another one. Anthony says, Will Oldham's Kurt from Old Joy, such a pinpoint performance of a faded man. I love this. Anthony says, I care about him deeply. We should all care about our favorite film characters deeply. Josh. Very, very sweet. Let's close it out with Michael Shaw. So glad that you're such fans, aficionados of Kelly Reichert's work. One of my favorite filmmakers without question. Very tough question, but here it goes. Number one, Kurt, played by Will Oldham in Old Joy.

1:20:08Number two, Wendy, Michelle Williams in Wendy and Lucia. Number three, Josh, played by Jesse Eisenberg in Night Moves. I will second guess the hell out of these choices, but that's where they're landing right at this moment. Thank you, thank you, thank you for film spotting and all the best. Thank you. Finally, we do have our winner, Adam Graff, Portland, Maine, who says, My favorite character is Jamie in Certain Women. Well, I guess the rancher has a name because Adam's calling her Jamie. That's the character played by Lily Gladstone because that was my first introduction to Gladstone. And she portrayed that deep feminine strength and complex interiority that she has perfected in many roles.

1:20:50Congratulations, Adam. We thank everyone who entered. We will contact MUBI and we will get that prize pack off to you soon.

1:21:12Iranian director Jafar Panahi has spent most of the last decade and a half making non-films like No Bears, Taxi, and This Is Not A Film as a condition of his status as a political prisoner. His latest, It Was Just an Accident, was made without getting permission from the Iranian government. The French co-production premiered at this year's Cannes Film Festival, where it won the Palme d 'Or. It's the story of an Azerbaijani auto mechanic, once imprisoned by Iranian authorities, who thinks he recognizes one of his former torturers. Adam, these non-films of Panahi's that I mentioned, they were acts of protest, but they were also very much films and often very good.

1:21:54But I think at least one of them made a top 10 of the year list for you. This is Panahi making a quote unquote real movie again. What did you think of him back in this form? Give me Panahi real films. Give me Panahi fake films. Give me Panahi real films with fake films inside them, like The Mirror, which was my favorite film from our Iranian cinema marathon. Was that a marathon, I think, just before you joined the show? Oh, no. No, I did that. Did you do that one with me? Introduction to Panahi. You did that. Okay. Wonderful marathon. I couldn't remember. Wonderful marathon. And one that was so influential for me because I don't think, well, I was going to say, I don't think I had seen any of those films, any of those filmmakers, but there was a marathon that preceded that one where I saw Taste of Cherry.

1:22:48and maybe someone like you, which was a Kyrostami film, but also that may have come out later. Nevertheless, the point is I had seen at least one Kyrostami film, but that marathon introduced me to Close Up and Makmalbaf and Panahi and Farhadi, and that was a huge one. That, for me, is one of those top five or certainly top ten discoveries when it comes to this show and the legacy of this show for me. All those films that you mentioned, Taxi, I think, Taxi I know was in my top 10 of that year. I think No Bears was also in my top 10 of that year or certainly my 11 through 20. This is not a film got considered and was given a very positive review on this show.

1:23:41and I had forgotten, Josh, that this movie, it was just an accident, won the palm door. I understand why. This might be the film of the year. This might be the film of the year for me. I woke up. Here are the circumstances. I had to wake up this morning to watch this movie. The only way I was going to get it in before my day commenced and all my other responsibilities and then recording the show was if I got up at 530 and watched it. And I don't normally get up at 530. And I had 40 other things on my mind that I could have been doing instead of watching this movie. So I wasn't exactly in the best mindset.

1:24:24Now I was excited because it was a Panahi film. So it wasn't exactly like I was going to work in the coal mine, but I was still a little bit dismayed. And by the end of this film, I was, well, I was, I was engrossed throughout. But by the end, I think the only way I can describe it is I was shook. And that was before the actual coda of the film, which left me even more shook somehow. And of course, we're not going to spoil either of these things. Everyone needs to experience both of these moments and these sequences for yourself. But just when I didn't think the movie could end any more perfectly, Panahi gives us a more perfect ending.

1:25:24And I'm not exaggerating when I say shook. I was emotional. I was in a different state as I began my day because of this movie. And in a good way, in a troubling way, because this movie is heavy. This is a movie that is going to make you reckon with a few different ideas. But it's an experience. And about that, I just want to say, this is a movie that you know, it is a reckoning. Characters are reckoning with their past and who they are and what they believe and what they stand for. And, you know, we were even we were even talking earlier about how begonia is a movie that feels like it's it's of our time.

1:26:13This movie even feels like it's of our time in America right now, oddly enough. Right. I don't know if you made the same connection, because just to get slightly political for a second, just to make this point, you have someone like Gavin Newsom right now talking about how we can't play by the old set of rules. We have to play by the new set of rules that that the Republicans are playing by. And I'm inclined to agree with him because how are we going to fight back or make any progress if the old rules don't exist? If the other team is ignoring that the flip side to that is, well, then we're behaving just like them.

1:26:51Who are we and what's our identity if we're if we're behaving just like them? And this movie, in a completely different part of the world, with completely different stakes and political traumas to deal with, is posing a similar question. And these characters are dealing with those conundrums, those moral conundrums. You know that the movie can only end a certain way. the characters are going to have to face a decision or or not and it's such a it's such a surprise still how it ends and so heavy and effective how it ends and then as i said the the coda on top of it i just i'm not sure i'm not sure movies are going to get much better than this one for me this year i can totally understand how someone could say this is the movie of the year.

1:27:50And it is largely in my mind because of that topicality that you're talking about. Obviously, I mean, you opened the, you know, the American resonance. So I'm going to, I'm going to go there, but I need to, out of my own good conscience, because this is a conscience rattling film, you know, to, to pay attention to the reality that it comes out of. And that's the political reality of people in Iran who have been enduring this for many, many, many years. It is notable that the main character here, Vahid, has been arrested for, quote, collusion and propaganda against the regime, end quote. And that's very similar to the charge that Panahi himself has been given, has spent time in prison for.

1:28:34And this is a reality for people on the ground in Iran right now. And I want to make sure that we are all aware of that before leaping to the American implications, which I think, to your point, are severe and immediate. it. And I can foresee, unless something changes significantly, I can see a near future where our filmmakers, our American filmmakers, the filmmakers that we've been talking about on this show, and praising their work, their provocations, are going to be facing similar situations. I can see a future where everyday citizens are facing similar situations like Vahid is. And so So maybe that is why the urgency here to this, this, it was just an accident.

1:29:28No longer felt like a window into another world across the ocean to me watching it right now. And if people are thinking I'm being alarmist, I'm going to once again, ask you, we're a Chicago show to find a reliable news source and learn what's been happening in Chicago. Which is outrageous. Now, to get back to it was just an accident. I refer to this as conscience rattling because it is not just a simple political statement. It is about the difficulties that you were talking about, Adam. When something horrible has been done to you, how do you respond? What if you have any option you could have at your disposal?

1:30:14And it's not just Vahid this falls to. It's very crucial that throughout the course of this day, he meets with former associates, colleagues, others who had been arrested and tortured by this same man. And this debate ensues about what should be done. Let's not get ahead of ourselves. For much of this movie, and we're not going to say where the answer is, we and Vahid don't know if this man is actually the person. And I think that is so crucial, Adam, right? Because it's about the thirst for vengeance and victory overrides. At some point, does it even matter if this guy was the man who tortured them?

1:30:53Some of them argue or at least suggest or at least give you the impression that no, it doesn't matter. It's just an avenue for us to get revenge. And so the complications here are endless. I think if there's any moral clarity, one of the former colleagues of Vahid's is a bride to be. And the bridegroom, who has not had this experience as these others have, the bridegroom played by Majid Panahi, says something to them at one point, it's going to be the end of you all. And in the moment you think maybe he's worried about they're going to get caught, right? Because they're still living under this regime.

1:31:37But I think he means it in a moral sense. and just one of the, this is a very subtly made film, but one of the visual details that Panahi includes, it goes back to this bride-to-be played by Hadis Pakbatten, and she's in her bridal gown for the entirety of this day. And just notice as the day goes on and they move to different places, the white purity of that fabric gets dingier and dingier and dingier until we arrive where the movie arrives. It's hard to say much more about a lot of this without getting into where things go. And I don't think we should do that, but I will share that I had a similar reaction to you with that coda.

1:32:23I'm honestly still processing. I don't know that it matters what that coda means politically as much as it matters what it means emotionally. and agreed yeah this is this is a remarkable a remarkable movie for uh iran and for the u.s i was constantly aware of the dress and how dirty it was getting throughout the day and that line i interpreted it the same way that you did that this was going to take these characters to a place that they could perhaps never come back. And that was about who they are. And that was about their moral choices. Spiritually, perhaps, they were never going to be able to come back from where this might take them.

1:33:10The character that I think is also really fascinating in this film, of course, is the photographer Shiva, played by Miriam Afshari, because she has another very insightful line. It's a bit of a jab at Vashid, but she says to him at one point as he's finally starting to get his wits about him, oh, this makes a lot of sense. You act hastily, you respond out of vengeance, and then you get sensible. But that is what a lot of us do. Now, of course, I can't imagine and have never been in a situation like this character is responding to, where he would feel this type of thirst for revenge justifiably in this moment, where you could feel that desire to act and not perhaps be able to control yourself.

1:34:10It could be justified. But she is pointing out that as the day goes on and as he does calm down and as he does begin to consider the ramifications and the ramifications of getting more people involved and where it might take them literally but also spiritually then he he does have to consider the sensibility of all this and and that's the that's the questions that this movie is asking and what i love i think maybe what I'm trying to express that I love so much about this movie is it's one of those films, and I swear this isn't a shot. I hadn't thought of it until just now. This isn't a shot at films like the Catherine Bigelow movie we talked about a couple of weeks ago, but I love that this is a movie that is fundamentally about asking those questions, asking big moral and ethical questions, but it also has clarity.

1:35:06It, it, it has clarity. It has, it has conclusions there. It leaves open some interpretation, Josh, at the end, as you said, as you noted, you can still process the ending. We could talk about how we, what we think is happening exactly at the end. And we can also, before that coda, we can talk about how we feel about the decision the characters make. We can talk about that. Like there's still stuff to interpret, but within that, I believe there is also clarity in what we see the characters do. And so that, that for me is, is a sweet spot that I think not a lot of films hit. Yeah. There's, there's absolute clarity in, in the cost I would say in this movie.

1:35:52And I do want to say real quickly too, since we've been talking about performance so much on this show, that lead performance here by Vahid Mobasari has a few other credits. I've noticed, I don't, you know, not a ton, very, very natural here. And I love how he, he gives us those qualities. We expect that this is a guy who's obsessed and driven once he makes this, this choice to actually pursue this suspect. But also throughout, he manages on his face to show that this is also a person at the same time completely bewildered by his own actions. And you have to, I just think that's, however he's communicating that as a performer is very impressive for one thing, but also it's crucial to these larger questions you were just talking about, right?

1:36:42This bewilderment that you've found yourself in a place like these characters have found themselves. Yeah. Like to some extent he is out of control and it's only later upon reflection, He can see how out of control he is and that he's driven by what you see in his performance. And I think I may have called the character Vashid earlier. If I did, I apologize. Vahid. What you see in Vahid is that is pain. Pain is driving this character. It's not it's not purely anger. It's not just that he he wants revenge. It's pain. And that that undercurrent is what drives this movie and part of what makes it special.

1:37:21It Was Just an Accident is currently playing in limited release. It's the biggest show in the country. One loss is our birthright. Next week on the show, Edgar Wright's remake of the 1987 classic. Yeah, you heard me. Arnold Schwarzenegger starring The Running Man. Josh, did you watch the original Running Man in 1987? 87. Have you revisited it or visited it? Adam, time is running out for me to see the original Running Man. I may have to rely on your expertise on this one. I missed it in 87 and am seeing the new one tomorrow night. I don't know if I can justify a screening of the original in the next, what, 20 hours.

1:38:14Okay. I think you need to read Mary Shelley's Frankenstein again instead. that's more possible actually also more Richard Linklater Nouvelle Vogue his film about the making of Godard's Breathless that comes to Netflix this weekend or you could watch Breathless again Josh to prepare for that we will talk about that film next week also Train Dreams is on the docket I've seen that film and I'm looking forward to that coming to Netflix for a current show schedule visit filmspotting.net slash episodes. We did want to take a moment to acknowledge the passing of Diane Ladd, 89 years old, three-time Oscar nominee.

1:38:57Josh, of course, I think of her first and foremost as, wow, what a character, what a character she plays. I don't even know how to refer to her exactly. I just think of her as, as the wizard of Oz inspired character that she plays the mom to her actual daughter, Laura Dern, that character in David Lynch's Wild at Heart from 1990. But of course, there's other great performances as you look over that filmography. Yeah, before that in Martin Scorsese's Alice Doesn't Live Here Anymore, that was in 74. Just after Wild at Heart in 1991, she was in Rambling Rose. I'm assuming this note I have here, this is producer Sam's opinion, Rambling Rose, a movie literally about how every man falls in love with Laura Dern.

1:39:46Okay. Directed by Martha Coolidge, that one featuring Dern and Robert Duvall. But Diane Ladd also in Chinatown, Ida Sessions. Lynch again with Inland Empire, that one also with Dern. Also with Dern and Alexander Payne, Citizen Ruth, and of course, Christmas Vacation. Yes. RIP to Diane Ladd. A reminder, if you are in the Chicago area on On November 25th, as part of the Chicago Film Office and Chicago Department of Cultural Affairs, their celebration of 50 years of Siskel and Ebert, we will have a screening of John Sayles' Lone Star. Afterwards, myself and Michael Phillips will be recording a post-screening conversation.

1:40:32It is free. It is at the Claudia Cassidy Theater. As I said, free, but seating is first come, first seated. There is a link to RSVP in the notes for this show. I am very much looking forward to revisiting on a screen, bigger than my television, Josh, that great John Sayles film and talking about it with Michael afterwards. If you are not in the Chicago area, but you are in the London area, you can join me at a film spotting meetup we have planned. This is going to be Thursday, December 11. We have a time and place 7 p.m. on December 11. We're going to be at the cafe at cinemas two and three at the Barbican.

1:41:15So I've been to London before, have never yet been to the Barbican center. This is a massive arts complex. I understand that features music performances, theater, there are exhibits, and of course a cinema. I came to know it because sadly for Chicago, Rebecca Fonz, who did such a wonderful job directing the programming at the Gene Siskel Film Center, recently moved to the Barbican to help with the front film programming there. So wanted to check that out and wanted to take the opportunity to meet up with some film spotting listeners who are in London and abouts. I'll leave those details I mentioned in the show notes, along with an RSVP form, which is always nice.

1:41:59So we know who to expect. Another quick note I wanted to share here, Adam, you were kind enough in the setup for our Frankenstein review to give me a plug for my book, Fear Not, A Christian Appreciation of Horror Movies. I didn't know this was happening, but the publisher let me know. Apparently, they have a sale going on for Fear Not through November 30. You could get the book for 50 % off. Not bad. Even better, free shipping. And, you know, when they've cut that much off the price, you don't want to have to pay more for the shipping than you do for the book. So this is kind of a nice bonus that you get both there.

1:42:36Again, through November 30, you need to use code CONFSHIP. I'll share that in the show notes for this episode as well. So did my setup work? I mean, did we move any copies because of that? I'll give you the quarterly report, Adam. You better. So Barbican, been there many a time, or at least, you know, it was back in the day when I spent a semester in London. And Rebecca Fonz being at the Barbican, as you noted, bad for Chicago, but good for London and good for film spotting listeners in London and film spotting. Because after that was announced, and I congratulated Rebecca on that, one of the first things that Rebecca and I started texting about was the inevitable film spotting live show at the Barbican.

1:43:26I'll scout it out and let you know what it looks like. Don't have a date. Don't have a plan. But yes, Rebecca is in. Surely we're in. We're going to have to up the budget because we're flying across the pond. But at some point there will be a live show in London. So get ready for that. Isn't it funny, Josh, how we can go, I don't remember the last time we had a correction on the show. That doesn't mean we haven't said something that was incorrect, just that we didn't catch it and no one else called us out on anything. And then inevitably, when you hear something that you go, oh, that was wrong, I should acknowledge that, there's always another one.

1:44:10You haven't had a correction in months or a year, and then all of a sudden you have two. So I was listening to parts of the show last week and I was like, how did I say that incorrectly? That defeats the entire point of what I was trying to say. I was talking about Peter Hujar's day and I said that in the movie, Peter says that women take better pictures than men. No, he says that women take better pictures of men than men. And that's a different thing entirely. And that goes with the point I was trying to make, which is, as he said that, I was watching the movie thinking, well, in this experiment, is it then notable that she's getting audio of him?

1:44:54And is she getting better audio of him because it's a woman capturing audio of a man versus if it was a man capturing audio of another man? So I just wanted to clarify. I mean, I knew that. And somehow I just sped through it, said it incorrectly. And what's so strange, and maybe this goes to like doing the show together for so many years, is when you mentioned this correction, I was like, well, no, that's exactly what he said. It's like somehow as you're talking, I know where you're going. And in my mind, I hear the correct version and missed that it had gone the other way. Well, I appreciate that.

1:45:33And of course, what's funny about this is I know this is one of those corrections that's sort of like only people who maybe were involved with the making of the film would know it's wrong. But still, the point mattered to me, and I don't like getting that wrong, so I wanted to correct it. A more egregious error, actually, is one that Joe Nielsen caught. Here, it doesn't change the point at all that I was trying to make, but it is a factual error. Joe Nielsen in the FilmSpottingFamily Discord pointed out that when I was noting that we do get the actual mention of the line, you're the monster. Someone says to Dr.

1:46:15Frankenstein in Frankenstein, you're the monster. I suggested that it was the monster, the creature who says that to him, but it wasn't. Josh, it's his brother. It's his brother who says that to him after the monster has been there in the bedroom or whatever the night of the wedding. So thank you, Joe, for pointing that out. The brother, not the creature. Jacob Elordi would never. No, no, he would not. All right. With all that taken care of, a quick word about our sister podcast, The Next Picture Show, looking at cinema's present via its past. And an important word. I mean, we always like to let listeners know what they're up to over there.

1:46:56It is part two of their Impaired Visions pairing. So they're looking at Radu Judah's new one, Dracula. This is going to be paired with Fellini's 8.5. That's what they talked about previously. But the real, the real news here, Adam, is that this is going to be episode number 499, which means that next week's is number 500. Just an incredible accomplishment. We want to take a moment to congratulate Scott and Tasha and Genevieve and Keith number 500. It's going to be a special one-off review of, of course, the show's namesake, the last picture show. They'll probably have some anniversary celebration and maybe some trivia going on as well.

1:47:41Love it. New episodes of The Next Picture Show drop every Tuesday wherever you get your podcasts. And I don't want to spoil any of that anniversary trivia, but knowing that 500 was ahead, I was looking through the Gmail last night, Josh. and it was fun to go down memory lane because it was right after the announcement came that the dissolve was being dissolved and it made me mad and i loved their movie of the week feature and i said there has to be a podcast in this and i called sam and i bantered it about with him and then i don't remember who i called first whether it was tasha or keith or genevieve but I floated it out there and we started talking about it.

1:48:29And then the email started and it's funny to look at, and they, they were interested. And what, what happens in the emails is, is they started talking and they recorded a demo is that there were some early names for the show that were not the next picture show. So I'm not going to spoil those because maybe those are going to be trivia questions on episode 500. But, but it's pretty funny, including, it turns out I I had my own Sean Parker moment and didn't realize I had a Sean Parker moment. So we'll save that. I promise I'll reveal it at some point. Drink the drink. But I don't want the drink.

1:49:07He doesn't want the drink. He does. I don't. You do. I don't. You do. I don't. You do. I don't. You don't. I do. You don't. I do. You don't. Listen, when I say I do, that means I do.

1:49:24The long-awaited poll results are here. A couple of weeks ago, we asked you to choose the second best Robert Zemeckis movie. His first best, yes, Back to the Future, was the subject of a Sacred Cow review. On that same episode, Josh, please tell us the nominees for second best Zemeckis. Back to the Future 2, Cast Away, Contact, Forrest Gump, Who Framed Roger Rabbit, and You Could Have Chosen Other. I don't think in the history of the show we've ever done it this way. I can't throw myself off this way. You have to do the results as well. I mean, math is involved and you generally do better with that than I, but yeah, I've gotten used to this over the years.

1:50:08So here we go. Other last place, 3%. Back to the Future 2, 7%. Castaway received 10%. Little bit of a jump here for the top three. 17 % of the vote went to contact. In fact, 19 % of the vote went to Forrest Gump, which means with 43 % of the vote, who framed Roger Rabbit is decisively never to be debated again as it is on a weekly basis, the second best Robert Zemeckis film. Okay, here's Timothy May. Zemeckis did make a less than excellent movie for the first 25 years of his career, and his late period has several underrated gems. I think people get tripped up on the satirical or cutting elements of his movies because he also wants you to care about the characters, which is a tricky mix that's not going to work for all viewers.

1:50:58But big, ambitious Hollywood storytelling can and should contain these sorts of contradictions. His closest cousin is probably Capra, another filmmaker who's assumed small-c conservatism is belied by a deep distrust of institutions of power and wealth present in most of his work. That's what makes Roger Rabbit his magnum opus. It's a technically astonishing movie about the human or tune cost of groundbreaking innovation, a simultaneous celebration and condemnation of Hollywood's role in creating the American century, the sentimentality and the cynicism in perfect balance. He makes a stronger case than that movie deserves.

1:51:34Oh, well, OK, sorry. I'm just going to set that aside because I'm I love this Capra comp. I'm going to have to give that some more thought. Yeah, it's good. Thank you. Thank you for that. All right. But for now, let's move on to Anthony Reich. Who Framed Roger Rabbit is a masterpiece. I do not get why neither Sam or Adam like it, but Josh must like it, as he likes all films with the word rabbit in the title. Having given three and a half out of four stars to Rabbit Proof Fence, Jojo Rabbit, Rabbit Hole, and Wallace and Gromit Curse of the Were-Rabbit, one can only logically assume he has given who framed Roger rabbit three and a half out of four stars to, I mean, well, first of all, Roger rabbit is four and a half out of five, but Anthony, I think I have to retire.

1:52:29I think Anthony has, has broken the code. My shtick is over. Yeah. It's, it's done. You do have a shtick. You're that predictable. Wow. I'm pro rabbit. You don't even own a rabbit. yeah okay oh oh tj ronigan don't don't get me into my childhood pet rabbit story adam things will take a very sad turn poor hoppy r.i.p tj ronigan i think i think these lopsided poll results demand a sacred cow review for roger rabbit it's head and shoulders ears and tails above back to the future Now, even Josh Rabbit obsessed King won't abide that. No, no, it's not. It's not better than Back to the Future. And we're not doing it because, you know, even Adam's skepticism about Back to the Future, it's just going to get amped up to intolerable degrees with Who Framed Roger Rabbit.

1:53:27We have to keep Adam away from Who Framed Roger Rabbit for everyone's sake. Edwin Arnodin is next. We love to hate on Forrest Gump, but it's Forrest Gump. Okay, not sure how to take that, Edwin. Here's Jack. A bit more detail. When I put together my best of the 2000s list, Castaway came in at number two. Behind, there will be blood. Zemeckis often walks the line between trailblazing and gimmickry, but the Maroon Island segment of Castaway is decidedly in the former category. Few films have so viscerally reckoned with the indispensability of human connection or confronted in such stark terms how lost we would become in its sudden and utter absence.

1:54:08Castaway should be considered among the great works of American naturalism alongside Stephen Crane's Open Boat. Instead, it's trailing the one about the cartoon rabbit, Josh. Stupid is as stupid does indeed. Our listeners are on a heater. Man, just imagine if Castaway instead of the volleyball, it was a rabbit. Oh, now you're cooking. All right, here's John Hunsinger. The deeply flawed description is frequently overused, but it certainly applies here with Romancing the Stone inexplicably left off the list. You know what? He might be right because I think that would probably be my favorite film of the bunch.

1:54:50Thank you, John. Danny Cox says,

1:55:20haven't seen it, Josh. I have not as well. I'm unfortunately not a Zemeckis completist. And yeah, I want to hold your hand is a reason why. Here is our new deeply flawed film spotting poll. Earlier, we reviewed Begonia, the fourth collaboration between Yorgos Lanthimos and Emma Stone. How does that duo compare though with some other actor-director pairings we've had this century. Here is how we're phrasing this one poll and your far too many options that we are giving you. Oh my God, Josh, this one went off the rails and I knew it was going off the rails and I sidebarred it. I took it out of the Slack channel.

1:56:03I sidebarred it to the private Adam and Sam channel just for your sake. Adam, you don't have to get me anything for Christmas this year, that is the best gift. And you're now possibly understanding why I originally lobbied for the Stone versus Lawrence poll, but you chose this. Let's do it. I don't know that. You don't think I don't know that. And also here's what you're going to love the most. There was a point in this process this morning where I said, Sam, I think you should go back to Stone versus Lawrence. I go, Josh was right. Just go back to Stone v. Lawrence. Let's do it. Let's get into it.

1:56:46He was too deep. He was too deep down the rabbit hole, and here we are. Okay? So you're going to be reading options for days. I'll read the shorter poll question. Only one actor-director duo can continue making movies together. Choose the criteria. I guess it's not a short poll question. The criteria is their first collaboration had to have come out the year 2000 or later. Oh, there's another stipulation. Minimum two films. But that's it, Josh. There's no more stipulations. There's no more criteria. 2000 or later, minimum two films. Read all of the options, Josh. Why do we have nine options? Okay, I'm just going to do it.

1:57:34Hey, hey, Ryan Coogler, the blackjack dealer. You know, when the dealer goes like this, just steps away from the table. That's me. Okay. Ryan Coogler or Michael B. Jordan, four films. Sofia Coppola, Kirsten Dunst, three films. Yes. We want to make clear the Virgin Suicides is a 2000 film. Greta Gerwig and Saoirse Ronan, two films. Jordan Peele and Daniel Kaluuya, two films. Yorgo Slanthimos and Emma Stone are a part of this poll. four films, Christopher Nolan, Killian Murphy, six films, Paul Thomas Anderson and Joaquin Phoenix, two films together. Kelly Reichert, Michelle Williams, four films, Wes Anderson and Ray Fiennes made this list with only, well, one film and one project we're calling.

1:58:24Oh my gosh. This is just like opening up a whole nother. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Wes Anderson and Ray Fiennes. All you All you need to know is that's an option. I'm not going down this path. Other. You can choose because nine options are not enough. There's not enough. You can choose other. No, you're not getting my pick. Are you choosing not to play the game? You're choosing not to play the game. You're protesting. You know who I choose? You're abstaining in protest. I've thought about it. I think I am going to choose Jennifer Lawrence. Jennifer Lawrence. I knew you were going to say that. Fair enough.

1:58:58And you know what? I'm going to save my answer for later. How about that? We would love to hear your vote. We'd love to hear your comments on this deeply flawed poll, and we'll share the results in a couple of weeks. How about that? That's the end of our show. God bless you, Sam. You can always weigh in on our polls via social media as well. Let us know what you're thinking there. You can find Adam and the show on Instagram, Facebook, Letterboxd, YouTube. He's at FilmSpotting. I'm at all those places as Larson on Film. We are independently produced and listener supported. you can support the show by joining the film spotting family and you can do it at film spotting family.com.

1:59:41That way you can listen early. You'll also be able to listen without any ads. What's more, you'll get a weekly newsletter from Sam, which I promise you is not always about these interminable polls, lots of good stuff in those newsletters. You also get monthly bonus episodes and access to the entire show archive. Now for show t-shirts and other merch, You can just go to filmspotting.net slash shop. A few highlights in the Film Spotting archive relevant to this week's show. We have reviewed six Yorgos Lanthimos movies going back to Alps. No, the, speaking of Sean Parker, drop the, the favorite and poor things.

2:00:21We put it back in the feed this week. We talked about Lynn Ramsey's You Were Never Really Here. And some listeners would probably like to forget that we reviewed 2011's We Need to Talk About Kevin. Kevin, we're not going to talk about Kevin. Kelly Reichert, three interviews, certain women, first cow, and showing up and reviews going all the way back to Meek's cutoff. And I mentioned Panahi, Josh. 1997's The Mirror and 2006's Offside. That was part of our contemporary Iranian cinema marathon in 2012. One of your first. And no Panahi films outside of that marathon, but many appearances. I thought there were multiple appearances on top ten lists.

2:00:59Sam only has 2015's Taxi listed, but I do know I was a big fan of those other films. Streaming out this weekend, Richard Linklater's Nouvelle Vague on Netflix. And Peter Hujar's Day, which I recommended last week, is playing at the Siskel Film Center in Chicago. Joachim Trier's Sentimental Value is playing in Chicago and is coming to theaters nearer to us, Josh, a little later this month. We plan to talk about it here soon on the show. in wide release. Wow. I have missed this one completely, but it seems that director Osgood Perkins has his third film in two years coming out after long legs and the monkey keeper.

2:01:40Have you heard about this one? I did hear he had another movie coming. I saw long legs, didn't get to the monkey and now I'm going to be too behind. So yeah, man, this guy's cranking them out. How about the third installment of the now you see me trilogy? I don't know what we call it, But yes, there's a now you three me. That's what we're going with. Jesse Eisenberg, Woody Harrelson. I haven't seen any of these films. I know some people think they're very fun, and I like the cast. I should probably watch one at some point, but it will not be next week because instead we are going to talk about Edgar Wright's The Running Man, the remake with Glenn Powell.

2:02:18We will also talk about Linklater's New Val Vogue and Train Dream starring Joel Edgerton. I'm sure we'll get up to other related hijinks.

2:02:54Goodbye.

2:03:24Spotting Archive going back to 2005. That's at filmspottingfamily.com.