Citizen Kane vs. Casablanca and '40s Madness Final | #1061

26:38Adam Kempenaar:And when I say, as I'm about to, that it's comfort food, I am comforted watching it. I could put it in right now and enjoy every second of watching it. But it did, especially watching it this time, noticing some things I'd never noticed before, and then watching Citizen Kane 24 hours after it, I really noticed the extent to which it was comfort food. And the feeling I had that it is so reassuring that it it reassures us that the moral math works out that it that it all comes out in the end the good guy wins the Nazis lose the underdog prevails America enters the fight and it was right to do so and we have the benefit of hindsight that the audiences didn't then right of course but we we do now yeah and it tells us too that we could have it both ways Josh, that Bogart can get the girl and give up the girl.

27:35Adam Kempenaar:What a sacrifice. The sacrifice feels noble. And its quotes, like I said earlier, are so comforting. They're endlessly repeatable. And we get to go back and relive them and enjoy hearing them said and quoting along with them. Even the lighting, the staging, the continuity editing, it's so easily digestible. The worldview that's being presented to us, the view of America like we're talking about, it has gestures towards cynicism, like Rick gestures towards cynicism, but the worldview is ultimately soothing. And it tells us that it's right to fight for and believe in ideals. And it tells you that in the end, it will work out.

28:26Adam Kempenaar:And to your point about Citizen Kane, it offers no comfort. It confounds us. It poses these impossible questions about America, about identity, about love, and refuses to answer them. It treats it treats love as as I think unknowable, unattainable. It treats power as is like completely hollow. It treats America and I think Americans as fickle, you know, capable of elevating a man like Cain to the status of a god. and then Americans are completely comfortable to dismantle him the next moment. And you take the quotes, you've got all those lines from Casablanca, compare them to Cain and its most famous line is that single word, Rosebud.

29:18Adam Kempenaar:And it doesn't give us any answers. It doesn't let us in on really any, truly any secret. It actually correctly tells us that it doesn't let us in on the insight. It is just one piece of a puzzle that doesn't really reveal the answers that we are looking for. And Casablanca takes this real world, this pretty stark real world scenario and turns it into Hollywood myth. And Cain has this dark snow globe fantasy, this broken snow globe fantasy with its expressionistic angles and those oppressive ceilings and the depth of field, which we may talk about more, right? That's all psychologically charged.

30:08Adam Kempenaar:And none of that leaves you feeling warm, doesn't leave you feeling good. And I even was struck by Josh how at the end of Casablanca. You've closed one story, one narrative. And that last line is the beginning of a beautiful friendship, like you're you're going off and another new story is is about to begin. And that one's probably going to end wonderfully as well. and and citizen kane ends with this this piece of the puzzle that's burning in a furnace as if all inquiry has just been closed right and and we're just we're completely dejected in a way as viewers as if we feel like we know nothing we're no smarter about this narrative than we were ultimately at the beginning.

31:02Adam Kempenaar:We ultimately feel like we have no more answers and we certainly don't feel any more reassured about our sense of the world and what it means to be an American than we felt at the beginning. I think that contrast overall plays out. Yes, I would agree with it. I do think it's underselling a bit by stressing the comfort about Casablanca, underselling the romantic dynamic and the loss that's really felt there. Because if it was as comforting as simple as you're describing, I don't think we'd remember Casablanca the way we do. I think we remember it because Rick and Ilsa's separation feels like a real loss.

31:46To your point, as you started, Adam, I think most people, I had the same experience. As many times as I watch Casablanca, I don't really sit down and think about the historical timing or context. And I think that's probably common for most people who have seen it from 1955 onwards or something like that. So why does it stick then? If it doesn't have this political relevance anymore, I think it sticks because the story doesn't tie up that neatly. It may, in all the ways you describe on a plot level and perhaps on a political level, perhaps even, yes, on a moral level. but it sticks in our gut because a good percentage of us, maybe more than 50 % still wants Rick and Ilsa to be together.

32:31So I would just throw that in there as like a slight defense as to Casablanca's, has a certain messiness to it. Now, is it to the degree that Kane does? No, not at all. I mean, everything else you're describing as Kane having, I would agree with. And I would add one thing also about seeing these two together. And if listeners are going through this process that we're forcing them to, is I got to pick one. Which am I going to pick? Here's something to keep in mind that struck me watching them back to back. And it relates to a comment when I logged Casablanca. Gary Angelo wrote this as a comment.

33:10Interesting final two. Head versus heart. I know which one I would pick, and it is not close. guess gary doesn't go on to say which one he would pick but i think that is the common perception of cane and casablanca right cane's the head casablanca is the heart and i think overall as we've laid out that that that's true that makes sense to me but my main takeaway from watching these back to back is that that's maybe not flipped but a little closer than we think because Casablanca I found, as we've laid out, way more serious or even quote-unquote important than its reputation. While Kane, and here's maybe where we'll get to the filmmaking, way more fun than its reputation.

33:57And anyone who watches Kane regularly knows this, but it is a reminder of just how fleet this movie is, how quickly it moves, and the filmmaking choices are part of that, the snappy writing by Wells and Herman J. Mankiewicz. I mean, we talk about the lines in Casablanca. There's maybe just as many quotable lines in Kane. There's things like the vaudeville section they have where Mr. Carter, the editor newspaper, when Kane comes in and meets him for the first time and it goes on for three minutes of, you know, Jedediah and Kane circling Mr. Carter and the dialogue overlapping, that's pure comedy.

34:38I think Wells' performance is of high tragedy and low comedy. He goes from one to the other when appropriate. It's a feat. And it's, it is a feat and it's part of the fun. I think that's part of the fun. Right. And yeah, let's get into the filmmaking. All the things you mentioned, but even Adam, a little choice like the 20 year edit, the cut from Merry Christmas to Cain as a boy to, and a happy new year, someone saying it to Cain as an adult, stuff like that. I'm sorry, is just fun. I mean, Kane is a lot of fun.

35:13Adam Kempenaar:I do have to just close one loop on Casablanca and say, yeah, the head versus the heart argument is way too simple. And I hope through the first whatever it is, 20 to 30 minutes of this conversation, we've made that clear. There's a lot of nuance here to that. And if you're going to paint a dichotomy, it's way more complicated than that. And I understand your point, Josh, though I will say that I agreed the sacrifice has to feel real. That's what it is for me, meaning the relationship and what's being given up. That has to feel real, I think, in order for the allegory of Rick as America to work.

35:54Adam Kempenaar:ultimately it has to feel like something is really being sacrificed for for us as americans especially at the time to see ourselves in rick that that is really crucial now you said something about us as viewers wanting to or coming away still thinking that she should end up with him and and i get that and i do think that's that's the reaction that that most viewers have and would have to the movie. But that's where I think the movie has it both ways. At the same time, to its credit, and I think I said this back in 2017, I do respect the movie and the screenplay a lot for not painting Laszlo, for making Laszlo truly a heroic figure and someone that Rick clearly really respects.

36:44Adam Kempenaar:And they don't make him a pushover in any way or someone that we, we they don't stack the deck against him in order to make it easier to root for Rick and Ilsa. I had a quick note just on that as well. Paul Henry, very good here. Very, you know, not pushing it too far. And even that moment where Ilsa reminds him as Victor of all the times he could have left her and didn't. Yes, he is. He's not only a political figure. He's a romantic figure in this movie. Yes. You know. And so, yeah, I agree with you. Yeah, though, I will just add that I had never been so aware of feeling like she should end up with Victor Laszlo as I did this time watching the film.

37:26Adam Kempenaar:And I'm going to completely contradict something I said back in 2017. I looked at my notes and I said that I loved Bogey's vulnerability and that it was one of the all time great playing drunk scenes. this time josh here again i've gotten really jaded in the past 10 years this time i was writing in my notes when did rick become such a baby at the exact same time sarah said out loud he's so melodramatic it was jarring it was jarring honestly and and many of many of bogart's biggest roles are still ahead but this is sam spade weeping into his folded arms because a dame broke his heart it was it was it was jarring but here's the larger point i'm making josh is that this character has still ultimately i i get it i'm sympathetic that that she broke his heart i am but he spent the last few years in relative luxury.

38:26Adam Kempenaar:Victor Laszlo escaped a concentration camp and continues to put his life at risk to fight against the Nazis. Yeah, we get it. I'm sorry, I don't have as much sympathy. I ask only one thing. You won't give me the letters of transit. All right. But I want my wife to be safe. I ask you as a favor to use the letters to take her away from Casablanca. You love her that much? apparently you think of me only as a leader of a cause well i'm also a human being yes i love her that much we get it we we know that's where she should have gone it doesn't mean that's what our heart wants okay well the heart wants what it wants adam and and casa blanca makes it difficult i'm thinking a little more with my head this time watching the movie but you're you're so right about about Kane and the filmmaking.

39:21Adam Kempenaar:And I think it's possible, Josh, that I have not seen Citizen Kane. Shout out to my 10th grade English teacher who made us watch it in class. And I say made us, exposed us to the brilliance of works like this, literature and film, media. It was a media class in 10th grade. Mr. Prawl, God bless you, made us watch this. And I'm sure I had to watch at least scenes from it as a film student. But I don't remember the last time I watched Citizen Kane all the way through. And so I'll go back to that lowercase r revelation again. Watching the filmmaking, watching the techniques that it's lauded for, seeing them again was absolutely stunning.

40:13Adam Kempenaar:And you've mentioned a few of them, Josh, but even just right from the opening, I mentioned, you know, this expressionistic approach that that opening. Did you notice how those different angles and the different views of Xanadu and the darkness of it and how ominous it looks? And yet that little light from his room is always in the exact same spot in the frame, which I love but that you know why I noticed that the one shot of the where you see Xanadu's reflection in a pond in the pond it's still there oh I see what they're doing here how how do they how do they pull that off how does Wells and Greg Tolan how do they not only pull that off but but envision that the snow globe lens the dark fantasy I said you have to wonder just that shot of the the distortion of reality how skewed is this entire vision that we're we're going to see played out but then going into news on the march and i was aware too that casablanca famously withholds we talk about rick and talk about rick it builds up such suspense before we even meet him right well great character talks about kane so long before we ever really get a full full glimpse of him as well the tracking shot that famous tracking shot josh that pulls back the unbroken take the single most important emotional moment of the film ultimately that establishes all of the stakes of the film and the key rosebud moment pulling back through the pain through the pane of glass when when his mom signs the the banknote and sends him off with mr thatcher that whole thing playing out in real time the conversation between the mother and father thatcher with young young Charlie playing in the background the entire time.

42:02Adam Kempenaar:But the the innovation of and you feel it, you don't have to be aware of whether or not how new this was or how often it had been done before of sets not typically having being fully built. And so cinematographers rarely showed full ceilings in shots the way tolan and wells so frequently use low angle shots to emphasize ceilings in shots so that even with his stature and those long those low angle shots emphasize his stature and wells seems like a pretty big guy and kane has that presence nevertheless those ceilings are right on top of him and feel like they're just depressing him down all the time there's a containment to it And that adds to this psychological feeling that you get as a viewer the whole time that that something is just always a little bit off.

42:57Adam Kempenaar:The scale of it, Josh, is is incredible. And those those depth of field shots, like when he's watching Susan Alexander at the opera, the over the shoulder shot where he's in the foreground and she's down below or the key one. I'll stop here and let you jump in, though there's others that I want to mention. The shot that actually might be my favorite is when he is finishing Leland's review of Susan Alexander. And that depth of field, the focus getting in that shot in the foreground, Wells' face as he types. Leland is in the mid ground in focus and in the back in the shadows Bernstein is still there as well getting all three of those characters all three of them having a different point of view on this scenario it's that that is incredible filmmaking and the camera itself isn't doing anything flashy it's planted it's all about it's all about focus and yet it's it's so crucial in terms of what it's imparting to us as audience members.

44:09You covered so much good filmmaking stuff there. I'll just I'll just add two two points. And one is related to your description of that opening montage, his death, where he drops the snow globe in his hand and it rolls away. There are you know, that's almost avant garde in the fact that there's there are shots of inside the mansion, his bedroom, I think it is where there are snowflakes on the screen. So clearly it's not snowing. And I think this might be before we even see the snow globe. So it's clearly not snowing in this room. And you're just wondering what is going on here. And then, yes, the lens of the snow globe where we see the nurse coming in.

44:47And think about when this is brought back at his death near the end of the movie, which begins with this screaming macaw that's superimposed over the screen.

44:58Adam Kempenaar:Yes. And then we get the that maybe my favorite shot is the one of all the doorways in Xanadu just going on forever, which we see, I believe, when they open up to go into his bedroom. Josh, I know some of our listeners listen to the show and listen to our reviews, even though they don't regularly get to the theater, even though they sometimes have to actually see the movies well after the fact. Some of those movies might be like the drama, which we recently reviewed Project Hail Mary, both movies worth seeing and hearing, especially in the case of the drama on the big screen. I'm going to mention another one though, normal.

45:41Adam Kempenaar:These Bob Odenkirk films where Bob Odenkirk plays a badass. Have you seen any of these? Yeah, I haven't seen them, but it's a thing for sure. It's a thing. And I love Bob Odenkirk. I see clips from them all the time. They pop up in my social media feeds and I end up watching them and enjoying them. And yet I've never brought myself for some reason to see them in the theater. I think I need to change that because, as I said, I'm always entertained by him and those clips. And speaking of entertaining, I do notice when I visit the Regal Cinema website, regmovies.com, that there's a Bridesmaids 15th anniversary release coming up.

46:19Adam Kempenaar:Maybe that's one that between us and producer Sam, we need to get on our radar and see if we have an archive review of that, or maybe one we should revisit for Sacred Cow consideration. one you can see on the big screen for its 15th anniversary. And you might be able to see that or some of the other movies I mentioned for free as a Regal Unlimited member because it's the all-you-can-watch movie subscription pass that pays for itself in just two visits. Right now, Regal is offering our listeners endless movies for less. All you have to do is sign up using the code FILMSPOT26 to get 15 % off. Regal Unlimited is the only truly limitless movie subscription pass And you also get 10 % off all non-alcoholic concessions.

47:04Adam Kempenaar:You can see any standard 2D movie anytime. There are no blockout dates or restrictions. And all you have to do is sign up now in the Regal app or at the link in our description and use the code FILMSPOT26. Once again, that's FILMSPOT26 to receive your discount.

47:26this is like something out of elaine renee's last year at marionbad which would come what 20 years later yeah or antonioni yeah yeah it's it's just incredible what they were doing here so that's the first thing is the avant-garde nature and the other thing is related to the deep focus cinematography you've touched on and this is my favorite shot actually because it does employ this. It's that same moment we've been talking about where Mrs. Cain is signing the papers to send him away with Thatcher. She and Thatcher are in the foreground here where I'm thinking of signing the papers. We see Mr. Cain behind and then behind him out the window, playing in the yard in the snow, we see the young Cain.

48:06So again, the layers of characters in the blocking, but also what this moment means. And it occurred to me too, just maybe had a particularly good, you know, not projection. I watched this at home, but a clear presentation of the movie. But this deep focus technique throughout does work like a snow globe works. It's almost like the clarity in a good, clean snow globe you get with quality glass, the clarity of the glass that somehow also magnifies and deepens the three-dimension dimensionality of the object in a snow globe that's what watching a lot of cane feels like it's like the deep focus just makes it no longer a flat experience but one that's magnified and enriched like figures in

48:57Adam Kempenaar:a snow globe yeah that's well said there there are a few more i have to mention just because Like you said, it's so fun. It's exhilarating to watch. And that's the thing, Josh. I think there are some people, and I hope they're not the people voting in Film Spotting Madness in this final match. I hope they're not the people who have only seen Citizen Kane once and maybe it was in high school and they were forced to watch it. Or maybe it was one time in college and it's the only time they've seen it. You watch these decisions, these choices that Wells made. I don't care if he's 25 or 85 when he made these choices.

49:34Adam Kempenaar:I don't care if it was his first film or his 14th film. I don't care if it was common in Hollywood to do or it was innovative at the time. It is remarkable to see choices like when they're doing the the the newsreel. I think it's part of the newsreel. Don't they show the handheld footage that sort of sneaky, almost like Bigfoot footage, like they're capturing of him behind the scenes? They have footage behind hedges that are that are here he is now. They just stalks the road, stalks the the the walkways and the tennis courts of Xanadu. And it looks like something we're so used to seeing now. But I do wonder how common footage like that was that sort of cinema verite approach was at that time.

50:25Adam Kempenaar:The one that honestly took my breath away the most that I had no recollection of at all, Josh, is when he's looking at Kane is looking at the picture on the wall of the Chronicle newspaper men. And he's talking about how great they are. Apparently, they're the best newspaper men in the business at the the rival newspaper, the Chronicle. and then the next shot is him having poached all of them to work for the inquirer and the way that's edited is with a single shot he's now standing in front of them yeah right but now they're taking a picture of them all posed the exact same way that they were in the previous shot in the frame except now he's standing in front of them he's he's poached them they're taking a picture now having all been hired to work for him.

51:22Adam Kempenaar:It's live action. It turns into, we think it's a photo. It turns into live action from photo to live action. That kind of vision there again. What about the choice, Josh, to show? And that's another, Adam, just real quick, that's another instance of eliding time. So creatively and entertainingly, because we go from him being jealous of that staff with a struggling newspaper to employing that staff with a thriving, soon to be thriving newspaper. We've jumped. That's it. I forget how many years, but in a, again, in not even a cut, but a clever use of still photography to live action. And that speaks to something else you said.

52:00Adam Kempenaar:I'm so glad you said it because I think you might have even used the same phrase or very close that I have in my notes. I was so struck at just how this movie moves, how fast this movie moves. And I don't necessarily even mean the pacing of it in terms of how fast an hour and 59 minutes moves. I just mean in terms of the editing, how quickly we go from moment to moment from the camera work and that editing. It almost feels less constructed based on scenes and more operatic. It feels more like it's cut on emotion or on feeling. It's this fast-paced tempo, and that's an example of it. You know what another incredible example of it is?

52:44Adam Kempenaar:How about encapsulating? Another one I didn't remember at all. The choice to encapsulate the entire dissolve of his first marriage in a breakfast montage. Josh, that might be one of the most evocative, most accurate for some, encapsulations of a dissolving marriage. And it all just takes place with a few shots and a few edits. And it's all done also as well with costuming, with hair and makeup, showing how his wife has changed, how he has changed, how he's aged, how they've aged, how her hairstyle has changed, and just the way they talk to each other, the way they look at each other differently, how their tone changes with each other.

53:34Adam Kempenaar:And by the end of the conversation, she's reading the Chronicle, the rival newspaper. There couldn't be more of a dagger to use against your husband than reading the rival newspaper. It covers everything. The whole sequence can't take more than 30 seconds and it covers everything you need to know about how they feel about each other. And we should just know because we've called out the editing so much. The editor on Citizen Kane, Robert Wise, who would go on to direct Sound of Music, West Side Story. But yeah, here very early in his career, editing a masterpiece masterfully. 100%. The last one.

54:12Adam Kempenaar:going up to the rigging the guys working up in the rigging to get their negative reaction to how about the ambition of that just to get them even those guys know she can't sing it's it's also economic adam because like someone like me who has no tune like i don't know maybe she's good but all you need is just that shot of the one guy turning to the other and holding his knows and you're like, oh, okay. So she's really bad. That's it. Any closing thoughts or have we, have we done the work to the best of our abilities? I mean, yes, I have copious notes we haven't touched on, but I think we've at least set the framework for thinking about these two together, which was our main goal.

54:57And I don't know, I'm sure if we need a bonus show for film Spotting family members at some point, maybe dumping our Cain Casablanca notes could be a bonus show.

55:08Adam Kempenaar:Yeah, I think we could do that. There's definitely more to touch on, but we got to the heart. We got to the heart and the head of what we needed to get out there about Cain and Casablanca. We would love to hear your thoughts about these two masterpieces. You can email us feedback at filmspotting.net.

55:33Adam Kempenaar:is looking at you, kid.

55:38So I just mentioned the Film Spotting family and yeah, bonus episodes. That's one of the reasons you should consider joining the Film Spotting family. For only$4.99 a month, you're going to get those bonus shows. You'll also have the benefit of ad-free listening, access to the Film Spotting family Discord, our weekly newsletter, which Sam puts together, and then pre-sales and discounts. Of course, that$4.99 a month tag, that is discounted if you decide to pay annually. That's right.

56:10Adam Kempenaar:Even cheaper if you buy that annual membership. Learn everything you need to know at filmspottingfamily.com. And worth mentioning, not a surprise, both Casablanca and Citizen Kane in the Film Spotting Pantheon. You can learn more about that at filmspotting.net slash pantheon. We have a few family members we want to thank. this week, Josh? Yeah, definitely. We want to thank Amanda Marbet. I'm going to go with Marbet right here in Chicago. Thank you, Amanda. And thank you, Travis in Montreal. Amanda writes that a friend recommended the show and she first listened not that long ago, actually. It was the Shawshank Redemption at 30 episodes.

56:49That was episode 983, which we did in September of 2024. four. Travis is a recent listener as well. He says that his favorite segment was our top five whodunits. That one happened to be the episode that directly followed that Shawshank revisit episode 984. Travis wrote this. I was never much of a podcast person before, but you guys hooked me. The top five whodunits episode hit a bunch of specific niche interests of mine all at once. and I had a great time listening to you talk about so many movies that I love so much. So yeah, we gave some love there to Usual Suspects, Knives Out, Rope, The Thin Man, Clue got attention, and then I think this was a pick of yours, Adam, The Last of Sheila.

57:33Adam Kempenaar:Yeah, one of the biggest influences on Rian Johnson for the second Knives Out installment. Amanda writes that despite being a relatively new listener, she has many favorite segments. That's good to hear. But I listened to 674 Isle of Dogs, Top Wes Anderson scenes with my eight year old son. He loved Isle of Dogs and it was a good bonding moment for us. It fueled his interest in sharing and discussing films. How about that, Josh? A random film Travis loves. Don't revoke my cinephile card, but I've watched I've rewatched Pitch Perfect probably twice a year since it came out. Now, Travis, apparently you don't you don't know enough about me.

58:12Adam Kempenaar:He is a recent listener. not only will I not revoke your cinephile card I might boost your membership into the film spotting advisory board it it probably needs to be in my my four favorites on letterboxd I love pitch perfect that much so now you're you're one of my favorites now can Travis go back in the archives in here I forget is there an original pitch perfect review where you attest to this love or you just no no we never reviewed the original pitch perfect only pitch perfect two but not pitch perfect one that needs to be a bonus segment or something a sacred you know why definitely a sacred cow you know why it could be um it could be a blind cow still haven't caught up with it adam still i'm gonna save it for next year's pantheon project pantheon project nomination it's gonna be my wild card finally a book about movies or movie making travis recommends Imagination Illustrated, the Jim Henson Journal, fills me with a sense of creativity and whimsy like nothing else can.

59:15That sounds amazing. Travis and Amanda has a good one for us here, Pauline Kael's Deeper Into Movies.

59:23Adam Kempenaar:Thank you, Travis and Amanda for being family members. You can follow Travis on Letterboxd at Muppet Kin. That's exactly how it sounds, Kin, K-I-N. And Amanda, if you're on Letterboxd, let us know. In addition to keeping us doing what we're doing, Membership comes with perks like you do get to listen early and add free. You get that weekly newsletter that Josh mentioned. You get to be part of the FilmSpottingFamily Discord. And you'll get our April bonus show, which we just taped with Sam earlier today. Ask us anything. We think it's a pretty good one. You'll get that in your feeds soon. Learn more at FilmSpottingFamily.com.

59:58Adam Kempenaar:And you can drop a new five-star review. We love it. It makes us feel good. Do that at Apple Podcasts or over on Spotify.

1:00:21Adam Kempenaar:Expanding this weekend, Josh, after opening in limited release last week is David Lowery's mother, Mary. We thought we might get to it this week. you are now able to see that one playing near you. I'm going to get to it as well. We'll see what's going on with Anne Hathaway as an iconic pop star who goes by the name Mother Mary. Michaela Cole is her estranged best friend and former costume designer. We like David Lowery. We were high on the green night and a ghost story especially. So we're intrigued. This is going to be an Anne Hathaway week for me. I just rewatched Devil Wears Prada. Adam really looking ahead to the sequel and now yeah Mother Mary I expect to be a little bit of a different vibe than Devil Wears Prada so looking forward to seeing that one that does seem fair you can look for that review in the film spotting feed next week also next week on Tuesday the newly resurrected film spotting streaming video unit will have a review of Netflix's Apex with Charlize Theron, they'll also bring you related streaming suggestions, new streaming releases, and more.

1:01:30Also on Tuesdays, you can look for The Next Picture Show, our sister podcast, looking at cinemas present via its past. This week, it's part two of their past imperfect pairing. So they're arguing, I'm sure they're arguing about the drama and, of course, talking about it in the context of David Cronenberg's A History of Violence. It's new episodes of The Next Picture Show drop every Tuesday, and you can find those wherever you get your podcasts.

1:01:55Adam Kempenaar:It's going to be a busy week. A lot of movies to watch, a lot of conversation. We are also planning to embark on our Dissident Cinema Marathon. You can find all the details and find the lineup over at filmspotting.net slash marathons. The first film up is Charlie Chaplin's The Great Dictator. This is one I've seen but not seen since college, so I effectively don't remember. a thing about it. It will be like watching it for the first time. And maybe we're getting off with this marathon on a lighter note, Josh, and that's not a bad thing. Maybe. We'll see. First time for me. So I have no context beyond what I vaguely have heard about the Great Dictator.

1:02:40One of the big reasons I wanted to do this marathon. So very excited about watching this for the first time.

1:02:46Adam Kempenaar:And then Friday in our big show, we will have our summer movie preview and we will officially crown the 40s Madness Champion. You can find the Film Spotting schedule at filmspotting.net slash episodes. A bit more housekeeping. Today is the big day. Tickets are on sale or depending on when you're listening to this, they're on sale or they will be on sale very soon because noon is the time here, Friday, April 24th. Film Spotting Fest, two fest, two film spotting. It's coming up June 27th and 28th in Chicago. You can learn everything you need to know at filmspottingfest.com. That's where you can click the links to buy the tickets.

1:03:30Adam Kempenaar:The point of sale will be on the Athenaeum and Music Box Theater website. So you can also go there if you'd like. But again, the hub with everything you need is filmspottingfest.com. We remind you that, as always, our guests are subject to change because schedules can get very wonky. But, Josh, we're really excited to share this lineup and the guests with our audience, which we did. We unveiled it officially last week, but we'll remind our listeners about it again this week. Kicking things off with Cleo from 5 to 7, the great Agnes Varda film. And yeah, we'll have someone join us, probably one of our critic friends, to have a Q &A after that film.

1:04:13We will have the director of the next film joining us, Cretia, that was made by Trey Edward Schultz, who is scheduled to appear and have a talk about that after our Cretia screen. And then that night, this is Saturday night, we're going to close out with Wet Hot American Summer. I'm sure a full house laughing hysterically. And maybe we'll do more of that with Marguerite Moreau, one of the stars of the film, who is scheduled to attend and do a Q &A as well. And then, yeah, I think this guy, people are familiar with, Michael Phillips, on Sunday, he'll be joining us. He has committed. We've talked him into it for the Royal Tenenbaums, a matinee screening Sunday of the Royal Tenenbaums to close out Two Fest, Two Film Spotting.

1:05:01Adam Kempenaar:And I was afraid of this. I should go ahead and note it now. Last year, of course, it was important to us to have Michael Phillips involved with FilmSpotting's 20th anniversary. And finding a date that works for venues and for all of us and different people is always very hard. And we end up landing on a date where Michael has a prior commitment. So he couldn't be part of the festivities. This year, we get Michael. Unfortunately, we don't have Mariah Gates. Mariah has a previous family commitment. So you won't get to see Mariah there. We were hoping to have her as part of that Cleo from 5 to 7 fun.

1:05:40Adam Kempenaar:But we will have another guest involved. And we're sorry to miss Mariah. And we know that she's a favorite of many Film Spotting listeners. So wanted to go ahead and point that out. We did invite her. But unfortunately, she will not be around. Family members reminding you that you get a discount on your tickets on that Saturday Festival Pass especially, and you have been sent all the details multiple times on your special code. If for some reason you haven't received that, then you should definitely reach out to us. Feedback at filmspotting.net. Your pre-sale opportunity was earlier this week.

1:06:18Adam Kempenaar:Tickets went on sale on Wednesday, and you do get to participate in a special meet and greet opportunity before Saturday night screening of Wet Hot American Summer. we cannot wait for film spotting fest too and hope that many of you will decide to come to chicago in the summertime and see some great movies and hang out with film spotting listeners i also wanted to share a very quick reminder about the edinburgh meetup coming up that i'm hosting this is going to be saturday may 2 and yeah we'll be the last one that i've been able to have here in scotland or while traveling around it's been so great catching up with listeners from all over and this one will be in edinburgh thinking of maybe more of a longer open house type thing there is an absolutely fantastic place for great beer that i found in edinburgh that i wouldn't mind spending a couple hours in so more details about that specific times and location will be forthcoming do let me know if may 2 works for you though emailing us feedback at filmspotting.net or reaching out to me larson on film and social So I get an idea of the headcount and can send those details out.

1:07:31Adam Kempenaar:I can't wait till it's revealed that you've really been setting up fight clubs all around the world. Yes, that's right. That has been my plan all along. An underground ring, Adam. We're going to take it public later this summer. Okay, good stuff. Some other big news. We're going to add or we're going to try to add to the film spotting stable here. We need some more assistance, Josh. We need to make this thing bigger. I put together a job description over the weekend. We have an opportunity for some part-time help, hourly part-time help for a social media assistant. We have channels and we have content, but we don't have content on those channels.

1:08:15Adam Kempenaar:Do you see the problem? There's just one thing missing. one thing missing. And you could be the thing that bridges that gap. So if you go to filmspotting.net slash social, you'll see all the details about how to submit an application. We are looking, it probably stands to reason, we're looking for someone with social media experience, someone who has published for channels before. You can see a lot more details about what we're looking for and decide if you're the right fit. If you want to apply filmspotting.net slash social.

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1:13:24Adam Kempenaar:No suspense here. We have already spoiled the final matchup. It is Citizen Kane v. Casablanca. We knew this already, though, when the selection committee put Casablanca 1 and Citizen Kane 2. That means we at least had some suspicion that it might end up this way. And we're going to tell you a little bit about how we got here. The championship round of 40s Madness is live first. We have to tell you that. Filmspotting.net or FilmspottingMadness.com. The poll will close Monday at 1159 p.m. Central Time. So that's Monday, April 27th, 1159 p.m. Central Time. And we will announce the champion on next week's show.

1:14:11Adam Kempenaar:Also, Sam has in question marks here in our notes, will we announce the subject of next year's madness? Oh, I think I teased this recently that we have, something in store for next year's madness that is going to be potentially incredible. But now, between myself and Sam, we've maybe thrown a wrench into it. We could ruin our great idea because we have a good idea, another good idea that could force us to be completists, more completists about this decade thing. And we're going to have to think about it a little bit more. And we may have to bring it to the people, Josh. We may have to bring it to the people and get a vote and see what folks say.

1:14:57I think that's always smart. And yeah, I thought you were leaning in one direction. So this is exciting. There's a little last minute turmoil amongst the committee.

1:15:08Adam Kempenaar:I might be going against my own better judgment. We will see. let's get into the final four results and quick disclaimer even though i don't think it's going to matter at all this is another show where we are recording a little bit ahead of schedule or ahead of our usual schedule and the polls haven't officially closed so if things are off by one percent or so you understand why but you also can understand why here in a second why it's not going to matter because neither of these contests were at all close. Josh, Casablanca versus the four seed, one versus four, Casablanca versus double indemnity.

1:15:52Adam Kempenaar:How did it come out? How badly did Casablanca beat double indemnity? Well, it won by 70 % of the vote. Yeah. Well, 70 to 30, pretty easy, right? Citizen Kane over, right? Yeah. Citizen Kane over, it's a wonderful life. Almost as bad, 61 % to 39%. Jack Becker says, This is brutal. Kane was one of the first movies I watched as I began my film watching Journey and is one of only a couple movies I have ever considered the greatest of all time. But I've also only seen it maybe twice. Wonderful Life, on the other hand, is an annual watch for me. Yes, it's a Christmas classic, but ultimately I find it deeply relatable in a way I have not experienced in any other film.

1:16:34Adam Kempenaar:If incinerator rules apply, then I want my favorite, not the greatest save the old bank and loan save george bailey or whatever is it the bank and loan something like that sounds right the savings and loan yeah george bailey jack getting personal there all right here's maria from kent uk who who i think is i think she's coming to that edinburgh meetup actually if memory serves all right maria i weighed in with this i know i know it is totally foolish and futile to vote for george bailey against kane but in this day and age where kane like people dominate all the headlines. Wouldn't it be nice to think that there is still some hope for humanity that out there, George Bailey, like people do exist and that there is still some good in this world.

1:17:19A vote for it's a wonderful life is a vote for hope and a better future. A vote for Citizen Kane is a vote for doom and despair. We cannot throw hope in the incinerator. Wow. That feels like Maria is just throwing in that battle of the national anthems from Casablanca, stirring us up.

1:17:40Adam Kempenaar:See, that's not fair because, Maria, it's drawing our attention to these kinds of figures. It's trying to make us, it's trying to sturdy us against the doom and despair, I would argue. Here's Nick Darius who says, This to me is the real championship matchup. One film about the disease that plagues our current moment and the other about the antidote. I voted for the cure. Okay. Thank you, Nick. Here is Joel. Both five-star masterpieces. It's a Wonderful Life is a classic. Nay, perfect film that never fails in turning me into a puddle of tears every Christmas. But come on, people. This is Citizen Kane.

1:18:20We are talking about here some of the finest imagery ever put to screen. Don't be foolish. You know what is right.

1:18:27Adam Kempenaar:Okay, we're going to close with Ben Thackeray, and this is really the message I want people to take away as they remember what I said during our review and also what I said when I noted that my winning rests on Citizen Kane winning. Ben comments, Citizen Kane is the Citizen Kane of movies. I sense you're feeling a little worried about— I think it's sunk. I think I'm dead. I think I'm dead in the water. Yeah, I don't think there's any doubt about it. A lot of lobbying going on here on this show. Yeah, I tried my best. In the bracket prediction contest with Kane and Casablanca moving on, nothing's going to change at the top of the leaderboard.

1:19:10Adam Kempenaar:Lewis raising Kane, that is his own challenge nickname. Lewis raising Kane Hill is at the top. 59 out of 60 through the tourney so far, his only miss. Yeah, in round one, he does have Kane taking it all, though. if it's Kane Lewis wins but if it's Casablanca our current third place finisher who is in third place Samuel too many Hitchcocks Maxton will win now I feel like we gotta call out our second place person so far Jim McMahon I'm guessing not the former punky QB for the Chicago Bears who has a great name shocked shocked to find brackets being made very good in second not going to win because jim also has citizen kane ironically went with the casablanca quote but has kane beating casablanca in second place doesn't have a shot at victory but put up a great fight did have two misses children of paradise over mildred pierce and in the next round went late spring over the big sleep jim unfortunately went cinephile snobbery Thought that would win out with our audience and didn't take it.

1:20:25That sounds like the punky QB. He would go that route. Yes, exactly.

1:20:30Adam Kempenaar:So we will see whether it is Lewis or whether it is Samuel, who ends up being our winner next week. And we'll find out who does end up winning our internal bracket challenge. Right now, I am still in first place. I'm in ninth overall. Wow. I mean, crazy. I've been wondering why these last couple of recordings, you've just, you've been beaming. You've had such great color and it, has the sun come out? Is it early summer in Iowa City? No. No, you're just. It's a little gray. Congratulations. It is all about my finish so far, how I'm doing in Film Spotting Madness. It does put a little spring in my step.

1:21:12Adam Kempenaar:I'm ninth overall. Sam is, well, he's second in our contest. He's 50th overall. Mike, the godfather of film spotting madness is third. He's 71st overall. Josh, you are now we didn't have a chance. We did not have a chance to update these yet because the polls are still open as of our recording. So we don't know. We don't know how the actual standings are. We just know that our standings haven't changed. You're fourth. I don't know, Josh, whether or not you moved up from your 200th spot overall or not, or if you sunk even lower. We'll have to find out. There is hope. There's always hope, as Maria pointed out.

1:21:48Adam Kempenaar:That's right. But I think it's entirely possible. I haven't done the math here. But if Casablanca wins, maybe I drop into fourth. I might lose if Casablanca wins. Because that's a lot of points for you guys who all chose Casablanca that I don't get. One can only dream. All of a sudden, me being ninth overall, it doesn't amount to a hill of beans, Josh. You'll show up ashen and pasty. I will. It'll be brutal next week. So we remind you that the final voting is open. It is Casablanca versus Citizen Kane. Even though I don't fully believe it, I guess you can vote with your heart or your head. Right now, filmspottingmadness.com.

1:22:36Adam Kempenaar:The polls will close on the 27th at 11.59 p.m. and we will announce the winner on next week's show, along with we are expecting to announce next year's Madness theme. That tells me there's just going to be a lot of furious slacking ahead of me this weekend. I mean, I think you're going to have to upgrade to the next tier of slack. Maybe. To manage your exam's messages. Yes. Filmspottingmadness.com and Filmspotting.net is where you can find all things show related. We would love your comments about our show. Feedback at filmspotting.net. Enough web addresses and URLs, Josh, because that is our show.

1:23:20If you would like to connect with us on social media, and it sounds like you might want to do that pretty soon because we're actually going to be putting a lot out there. You can find Adam and the show on Instagram, Facebook, Letterboxd, and YouTube. Just look for Film Spotting. You can find me at those places as Larson on Film. We are independently produced and listener supported. You can support the show by joining the FilmSpotting family at FilmSpottingFamily.com. That way you can listen early and ad-free. You'll also get monthly bonus episodes, a weekly newsletter, and access to the entire show archive.

1:23:55For show t-shirts and other merch, go to FilmSpotting.net slash shop.

1:24:00Adam Kempenaar:Out streaming now, you can see Apex on Netflix starring Charlize Theron. She's a grieving woman on a solo adventure in the Australian wild, but Josh, here's the added little wrinkle. She's also being hunted by madman Taron Egerton. Aha. Okay. Okay. In limited release, there's I Swear. Robert Arameo won the Best Leading Actor award at this year's BAFTAs for his performance as UK Tourette's Syndrome advocate John Davidson in this biopic. Seem to remember some controversy about that at the BAFTAs. mad bills to pay robert daniels our friend caught this at sundance earlier this year and wrote a handsomely shot and assuredly executed debut film whose startling profundities recall john cassavetes and bob rafelson and when you're throwing around words like assuredly executed debut film phrases like that and cassavetes and rafelson the film spotting brick siren goes off Indeed.

1:24:55Adam Kempenaar:Yeah. One week. We may have to be paying attention to. In wide release, you can see the new one from Hell or High Water director David McKenzie. That is called Fuse. Yes, it is about bombs. World War II era. It's called Fuse. makes sense at uze antoine fuqua directs the michael jackson biopic michael jason siegel and samara weaving head to a remote cabin each with secret intentions to kill each other directed by jorma tacona who did pop star and mcgruber so i i'm in yeah i didn't see it going that way but okay sure i'm suddenly more intrigued and yes expanding is david lowry's mother mary which we plan to get to and review for you next week in the film spotting feed film spotting svu will tell us if apex is any good we've got another archive drop for you we'll tell you about the great dictator part of our distant dissident cinema marathon the first film in that marathon and then we'll have your summer movie preview film spotting is produced by golden joe de so and sam van Halgren.

1:26:01Without Sam and Golden Joe, this show wouldn't go. Our production assistant is Sophie Kempinar. Special thanks to everyone at WBEZ Chicago. More information is available at WBEZ.org. For Film Spotting, I'm Josh Larson. And I'm Adam Kempinar. Thanks for listening.

1:26:18Adam Kempenaar:This conversation can serve no purpose anymore. Goodbye.

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