Eddington, The Fantastic Four, Sunlight, Top 5 Joaquin Phoenix Performances (2023)

21:08Josh Larsen:And he, you know, he suffers from a particular form of brain rot in a particular political direction. At the same time, Pascal's mayor, the movie pokes at him too. He seems to almost delight in the new rules that the pandemic is allowing him to show that by following them, how progressive he is. So this is a little bit of an undercutting of that character as well, which I think does make the movie richer. And we could list a number of other characters who are involved, but this thing really broadens out. I was wondering, Michael, a movie that came to mind, and maybe I'm way off here. You seem to be in the mood of telling me when I'm way off, so let me have it.

21:51Josh Larsen:But I thought at this point about Robert Altman's Nashville in the sense of a movie that does come to incorporate a very large ensemble cast, also wants to be a cinematic consideration of America at a critical juncture and do it through this broad canvas. Now, stylistically, I can't think of two filmmakers maybe further apart, right? Aster doesn't have the shaggy, free-flowing touch that Altman does, which made us feel like a fly in the wall. Aster is very controlled. His films are very controlled. So there's that difference. But just in the sense of the broad canvas and the trying to capture Americana, Nashville did come to mind for me.

22:36Josh Larsen:How far off am I?

22:38Michael Phillips:No, no, no, that's, you're not, no, I'm sorry to jump down your throat on the other one, but you know, that's, that's my job. You're good. Yeah. I mean, Nashville, in fact, was just, I think just part of the Altman retrospective at the Cisco Film Center. And I wish I'd seen that. I haven't seen it on the screen since I was a teenager, but.

22:58Josh Larsen:It's been a long time for me too. So I could be off on this.

23:00Michael Phillips:Yeah, it's, yeah, it, Aster's a different kind of, um, I don't want to call him a satirist because I, I think one of the strengths of Eddington is that it's not straight up satire. I mean, don't look up. I'd agree. The Adam McKay meteor, you know, liberal lament film, uh, that was straight up satire with then sort of a sledgehammer dose of pathos as the world's about to end at the end. And I didn't like any of it. a different register yeah and it's and it's it's a it's a little it's a little slippery almost all the way through and i i guess why i did think it you know it i i sense astor's need to give this picture a satisfying if outrageously kind of over scaled action climax just to kind of bring it to a head um and maybe it was always scripted that way i probably was uh but uh to me that the kind of outrageousness does seem to me much more puerile and I guess adolescent you'd call it I mean I think I compared it to like Tarantino a guy who I just don't think has a serious storytelling bone in his body truly I think he's got great skill and he's often a lot of fun but he you know to me it's it's just empty calories uh you know and uh and you know so be it You know, Astor's a much more, he'll never, he'll never have the commercial instincts because Tarantino does.

24:29Michael Phillips:And this film, the funny thing about where this movie goes, where editing goes in its last half hour, 40 minutes or so, it's almost as if that part of the film exists so that A24 could legitimately include some pretty shocking, you know, scenes of firearm, you I mean, like Major League heavy-duty firearms and fireballs as part of the trailer. And it looks like a movie. I mean, that trailer is very, very crafty in that it seems to get everything about the film. And it might even get a traditional action audience a little bit interested in seeing it. Now, what they get when they go in the door? I mean, maybe.

25:18Michael Phillips:But they're going to be waiting a long time.

25:20Josh Larsen:Will they make it to the fireballs is the question.

25:23Michael Phillips:I know, I know. Yeah, I mean, he's not, he's a funny guy, Astor, because if I go back to Midsommar, which I really, again, sort of loved the first two thirds. And I thought, even if it's a lot like The Wicker Man and a lot like some other films, you know, that that set up where where you really have a film that's about this very queasy relationship that, you know, is not destined to work out. And it's it's in that movie. And Astor is writer, director, very, very properly hard on the on the on this on this worm of a male protagonist. And he's a very clear eyed and honest kind of deadpan black humor perspective on, you know, on this outrageous, outrageous flaws of your typical American.

26:14Michael Phillips:And that's what you get in Midsommar. And you also get that in Eddington. I don't think it kills the movie. I think it actually, as I say, because Joaquin Phoenix is there to slowly build the character and also the writing. As you say, it's not all one note, like a movie like Don't Look Up. Just, you know, they don't even, one note is too many notes to describe Don't Look Up and its treatment of all the attitudes and characters in there. I think what you said about Emma Stone, yes, but I think I read that those scenes differently, even after two viewings than you, I think.

26:48Josh Larsen:His tenderness towards her, you didn't see it that way.

26:51Michael Phillips:It's there, I think, the tenderness is there, but it is more about a guy who's just struggling to try to, for all the rote reasons, keep this difficult and clearly kind of corrosive, corroding marriage together in this household where his mother-in-law... I mean, in another way, this movie is just another mother-in-law joke. You know, it's like a little like Bo was Afraid was in some ways. But it's a little about mother issues. Yeah. And it's a little dumb. It's a little dumb and reductive about women in general. I think it's a little like I just don't get them is sort of the attitude of the characters.

27:36Michael Phillips:And it might also be Ari Aster's private struggle, like many male writer-directors, to just write dimensional, interesting, surprising female characters. And I think, you know, Emma Stone does, God knows, every single thing she could do to make that woman more dimensional, interesting than she is on the page.

27:56Josh Larsen:Yeah, it's a thinly written role. I will say Deirdre O 'Connell as the mother-in-law gets maybe more scenes than Emma Stone. She certainly appears in the epilogue and is crucial to that. We won't give that away. But I thought she was fantastic. I mean, making more perhaps than what the screenplay provided as this conspiracy theory obsessed mother-in-law, which is a crucial part of what people were going through is when you couldn't have human connection, it just amped up our inclination to turn to digital connections, which is why Facebook, Instagram, YouTube plays a prominent role in this movie.

28:35Josh Larsen:I think it's pretty sharp about that. I would also say to counter your claim about the sheriff's feelings towards his wife, one of the first videos we see him watching. I think it's the very first scene is a YouTube video about someone talking about infertility and how that's hard for couples and handling it. And we learn that this is part of their difficulty in their marriage, at least if not infertility, I think it's just a willingness that he does want kids and she's not in an emotional state for it. So yeah, I do think there's more of a genuine impetus to him, the sheriff, wanting to work out that marriage, but I agree the role that Emma Stone plays is underwritten.

29:15Josh Larsen:Do you think we should segue, Michael, to a little spoiler? We've been dancing around that last third, the climax, and I know I do want to mention one bit that really did work well for me, that chaotic bit, which is also a joke. I found it, but I'm not quite sure how. So maybe listeners, if you haven't seen Eddington yet and don't want to hear a few spoiler bits towards the end. You might want to jump ahead. If you're going to do that and you end up seeing the film and want to let us know your thoughts, you can always email us at feedback at filmspotting.net. As we mentioned, Eddington is currently playing in wide release.

30:10Josh Larsen:So, Michael, let's get to just some general thoughts about the ending. The bit in the climax, and this is to your point about everyone being skewered, all their political positions. It's almost like the gunfire, which erupts, we should say, because at this point, the sheriff is being pursued by anti-fascist assassins who come out of nowhere, heavily armed, chasing him across town, across the countryside. trying to kill him. So he breaks into the gun shop, comes out with like a Schwarzenegger style machine gun assembly, and just starts laying waste to the whole town in defense, supposedly. There's a bit in that chase, Michael.

30:53Josh Larsen:I don't know what to make of this. Maybe you can help me, except that it seemed to capture the insanity of this country going back from its very beginning. But Sheriff Cross is being chased. He runs on top of the roof of the town's history museum and crashes through, lands on a display case that also breaks, shatters all over the floor, and the case is holding supposedly the bones of Geronimo. Now, you mentioned the Pueblo community next door. There is a thread acknowledging that part of America, clearly, originally, the original indigenous peoples who lived here, that's a thread in this movie.

31:32Josh Larsen:And something about that bit where Cross is laying among the bones and then has to get up with his guns and still run out and try to take down his assassins. I don't know what it says. I don't know what it means to say, but it seemed apropos for our current moment. And as I said, the country's history, that's where I think Eddington is doing something that makes me at least glad I gave it a shot yeah yeah totally what did you make of that whole sequence or the climax in general yeah so

32:05Michael Phillips:that's that part of the sequence where we never really see any of the assassins uh in close-up i think i might be wrong on it but i don't think so so i mean they're basically anonymous gamer type assassins right yeah that's also kind of yeah i never i never i never think that's a strength in in narrative filmmaking i think it's an immediate weakness because it makes it makes it easier to just you know get off on the killing which i you know we've you know the whole industry is built on that to some degree but uh i think the way that scene is is staged and edited and timed it it leans into the many many too many times we've seen exactly that sort of thing played for straight laughs in a much lighter film and so i think the audience doesn't know if you know what what, what it's, it's, it's a somewhat insecure, uh, bit of that sequence.

32:58Michael Phillips:I think, you know, to your point, Astor doesn't quite really know how he wants to come off. I think just in that bit, uh, you know, what I thought of, I mean, I just, cause I've seen the play recently, uh, uh, what I thought it was, I mean, this is, this is sort of just the fact that he's landing on the bones of first nation people who were there before all any of these idiot white people came along to start shooting up their town, a town with the absolute palest, whitest name in the history of fictional cities in film, Eddington, you know? And I'd love to get the backstory on the probably hapless military figure that it's named after.

33:38Michael Phillips:You know, maybe there's a short film in that someday. Maybe. There's a Tracy Letts play called The Minutes that premiered here. Steppenwolf played on Broadway, and it's got a very similar kind of dynamic about these foolish, blinkered, small town, white sort of politicos just kind of going about their business in a way that gets increasingly sinister. And it all kind of ends with this sort of second layer of history kind of eating them up on stage. I don't want to lay it out too, too, too completely, but, uh, and it's all about the people that were there first. Uh, and, and it, it, yes, it's an effective moment and it's also a little unexamined or it kind of needs a yes and improv prompt at that point.

34:31Michael Phillips:Like, yes, okay, good. And, and we don't really get that because it's an action seat. I mean, at that point, Astor probably realized, okay, this just has to kind of, I have this thing carved up in the eight beats. They're all increasingly violent and fatal and bloody. And, you know, we just got to keep it going at this point. But I don't love, I just don't love the way that movie inevitably, I suppose, goes where it goes. And in sort of a way that, again, if you see the trailer, you're really, you're really, I don't want to pin it on AA24's marketing. but it's just promising a different movie than you get.

35:07Michael Phillips:And I think this movie really does get at a lot of what we still feel. And this is why I don't even look at it like recent history, Josh. I think, you know, how many people died last week of COVID in this country? I don't know, hundreds? Maybe more than a thousand? Is there always another viral threat seemingly these days? Yes. So to me it just plays like it happens to be specific recent history, May 2020. uh it also feels like um you know like we're not over with this it's not you know in that regard it's not well in every regard this movie is not the best years of our lives right came out in 1946 the year after the war and the whole movie is about about people coming home from the war like that you know it's set in you know it's set basically one year back yeah great example to

35:57Josh Larsen:prove your point about it you know not being too soon that is absolutely not a too soon movie for

36:02Michael Phillips:sure yeah one other thing i'll say structurally this is one of the few movies where i would say there's enough set up in the first three fifths that the film actually feels like it could be longer could be two two hour chunks it could be a four hour picture i suspect that what he wrote initially was longer i i don't know he's probably talked about you know whether or not it was ever much longer or the cut was three and a half hours instead of whatever it is, two and a half. It's two and a half. But it does feel like it's either, you know, this is one of the rare ones where it's like, you know, just not necessarily to clean up the mess of it, but to actually let some of the things flesh out.

36:42Michael Phillips:You know, it could have been longer. And there's something a little off about the length. So what do you think? Do you think it's, or did you feel like enough already?

36:50Josh Larsen:A little bit. But it also goes back to me, for me, to the Altman thing a little bit where, you know, some of his movies you feel like, if not longer, you know, would be fantastic series where you could spend a little more time with some of these characters who just walk through and you become, you know, they grab your attention and you want to learn more about them. I mean, that's to those films credit, right? That's finding richness in small moments. But here, you know, we meet these kids, these teenagers. Those are interesting stories. You know, I think the sheriff's deputies are interesting stories.

37:23Josh Larsen:We only get little bits of and more about the marriage, the movie I feel I could use. We've talked about, you know, Emma Stone being underused. So, yeah. So before we wrap up here, we've worked through a few things. Do you feel stronger in terms of a little less squirrely? Let me say, would you say you are overall favorable on the film or more favorable than maybe after you saw it? Okay.

37:47Michael Phillips:I'm going to go favorable as well. I willingly saw it twice. I am wildly conflicted about some of it. I do not like the impulse to just deliver the kind of somewhat weightless ultraviolence at the end. And then somehow it doesn't override everything. I think the movie does not neat and tidy, but very intriguing ambiguities and tonal switches. No, I'm favorable. I want three stars, but star ratings mean nothing with a film like this. But yes, I would say check it out. See what you think.

38:24Josh Larsen:Yeah, we'll tell about it. Totally.

38:25Michael Phillips:Yeah, yeah, good.

38:26Josh Larsen:I will give it a conflicted recommendation from me as well. Eddington is currently playing in wide release. If you see it and agree or disagree, let us know. Feedback at filmspotting.net. Listening is the number one thing you can do to support an independently produced show like ours. Here are a couple of other things you can do to help us out. Take a minute to give us a rating or a review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Feel free to do this if you're a brand new listener. Just one show under your belt. You have something you want to share. Leave that review. Hey, if you've been listening for 20 years and you've never left a review, maybe now's the time.

39:06Josh Larsen:Every new review helps us reach new listeners. Another way to support us, you can join the Film Spotting family at filmspottingfamily.com. We want to thank family member Jason Monholland from Oklahoma City. If you want to follow Jason on Letterboxd, you can find him at Sooner Moondog. So, Michael, we have a little bit of a questionnaire. We ask new family members to fill out if they so desire when they join the family. Jason did that for us. So I want to share some of his responses here. We ask, you know, when they started listening, if they remember their first show and he says, it's been so long.

39:47Josh Larsen:I can't remember when I started listening. Well, thanks for sticking with us for a while, Jason, his favorite reviewer segment. Jason says one that sticks out is the methodical way you broke down killers of the flower moon. I love it when you guys geek out about a film or a filmmaker. What review did we get wrong? I struggle to recall a review. I strongly disagree with, which means that either the show has started affecting the way I watch movies or that we share similar viewpoints, in which case I commend you on your impeccable tastes. It's always, always encouraging to hear that the indoctrination is taking effect among our listeners.

40:26Josh Larsen:All right, Jason on Letterboxd, as I said, here's his top four films listed there. Eight and a half, The Empire Strikes Back Princess Mononoke and Rear Window any issues with any of those titles Michael?

40:42Michael Phillips:Oh heck no heck no I mean yeah we were just talking about everyone. You approve okay. Yeah all the way all the way.

40:47Josh Larsen:You get the Michael Phillips seal of approval Jason. A favorite movie he revisited recently Alien a random film or filmmaker that you love Terry Gilliam's The Adventures of Baron Munchausen and a movie he credits with becoming a cinephile, Akira Kurosawa's Seven Samurai. One last question that Jason answered for us, a book about movies or movie making. He said, the easy answer is Ebert's Great Movies, but I will mention a book I got from the book fair as a young upcoming cinephile that stuck with and ignited a curiosity about film, Movie Monsters, Monster Makeup, and Monster Shows to put on by Alan Ormsby.

41:27Josh Larsen:Thanks for the recommendation, Jason. I am unfamiliar with that one. Thank you again for joining the Film Spotting Family. If you would like to join the Film Spotting Family, just go to filmspottingfamily.com. This episode is brought to you by Peloton. Break through the busiest time of year with the brand new Peloton Cross Training Tread Plus, powered by Peloton IQ. With real-time guidance and endless ways to move, you can personalize your workouts and train with confidence, helping you reach your goals in less time. Let yourself run, lift, sculpt, push, and go. Explore the new Peloton Cross Training Tread Plus at OnePeloton.com.

42:06Michael Phillips:This summer, Marvel Studios invite you to the cinematic event of the year with everything from action to romance. Kiss for luck. Oh, careful there.

42:22Josh Larsen:Pedro Pascal, again, in the trailer for Fantastic Four First Steps, which arrives in theaters this weekend. This is the third attempt to bring the Fantastics to the screen, at least in a version that isn't widely hated by audiences and critics. There was 2005's Chris Evans starring Fantastic Four, and then its 2007 sequel, Rise of the Silver Surfer. Here's Roger Ebert weighing in. Should be ashamed to show itself in the same theaters as good superhero. movies. And yes, I remember the competition was strong around 2005 and 2007. 10 years later, we got Miles Teller and Michael B. Jordan's turn. That one fared even worse.

43:05Josh Larsen:Here's a review we dug up. Everyone on screen speaks in a flat, earnest monotone, bordering on openly not giving a rip. It's a choice, a boring one, but a choice. Do those words sound familiar, Michael Phillips?

43:18Michael Phillips:I think that's a little detritus that floated off a one-star review in the Tribune, yes?

43:25Josh Larsen:One star from Michael Phillips, yes.

43:27Michael Phillips:Yeah, that was a bad film. You did not enjoy that one.

43:29Josh Larsen:Well, another 10 years have passed, and they're back. We have Pascal's Mr. Fantastic, Vanessa Kirby as Sue Storm, Joseph Quinn as Johnny Storm, and even Moss Bacharach's The Thing. But this one, the first Fantastic Four produced by Marvel Studios, it's directed by Matt Shackman, is set in the space age 1960s when the quartet first appeared in comics. So, Michael, I saw those first two Fantastic Four movies, also not a fan. I skipped the 2015 one and didn't make it to this latest iteration. So, you are our Fantastic Four correspondent is the third time the charm.

44:12Michael Phillips:It is. I mean, it's not great. I don't know if there's any way you can actually make great superhero cinema within the Marvel Studios realm right now. This far into the collective cultural fatigue, we might, I'll say might, might be feeling as a populace. But this one's good. And it has some of that conspicuously lighter spirit of, let's say, the first Ant-Man film with Paul Rudd. That, you know, that to me felt like a relief when it came because it wasn't about yet another apocalyptic sort of universe crushing scenario. It was more just about like regional trouble, you know, with the Ant-Man fighting the forces of darkness and all that.

45:02Michael Phillips:I like that film and I like this one too. It's the first film in a while I've seen from Marvel Studios in quite a while that actually gives you some images to remember rather than just sort of a general wash of fan service. I mean, it's actually really sharply production designed for once. It's not production design that gets completely smothered by every other visual element, you know, the digital compositing, the green screen stuff, all that. It actually is a really tasty look at Manhattan in the 60s if, in an alternate universe, if the designers of Tomorrowland redid Manhattan so that there's an awful lot of skyscrapers that don't really exist on the, never did exist on the skyline.

45:50Michael Phillips:But, you know, so, you know, alongside this Chrysler building and the Pan Am building, you get you get these kind of wonderful, wonderful, you know, what if what if the what if, you know, the jet age, space age? It's great. And this kind of it's a movie that really trusts maybe maybe to to a fault. The hangout factor, the audience might feel like, hey, I don't mind hanging out with these four, fantastic four, as they sort of struggle through various issues about, it's increasingly serious about like, okay, you know, are we really going to deal with this ethical dilemma of doing what the nemesis in this story is asking, which involves a new family member.

46:38Michael Phillips:And it's a big issue. I don't want to spoil it. But I did sense that people were relaxing into enjoying it more than I've maybe experienced in a lot of Marvels lately. Pedro Pascal's good. I think he's kind of, it's the first performance I've seen of his that didn't seem surprising in any way. It's a very steady, methodical performance. He's a very serious character. But it's Vanessa Kirby that really kind of takes off a little bit in this one. And, you know, not great, but good. Solidly good. And, you know, I'm, you know, Superman, which I also, I know I like Superman more than you did. You didn't like it at all.

47:16Michael Phillips:But I think we hated the same things about it. The fact that it had that sort of crushing, punishing, sort of like jokey sadism running through it. And that's James Gunn at his worst. But I did like a lot of the other bits of Superman that maybe most people wouldn't go to a movie for. like, uh, in fact, like the fact that there's a really interesting argument between Lois Lane and Clark Kent at the beginning of the picture. That's all about like, how do we, how do we solve our relationship issues? And that scene is not a joke. And it actually is like, it's buying in, you know, buying into the end.

47:47Michael Phillips:And there's, there's some of that, there's some of that, even Superman, very up and down film and kind of neurotically uneven and fantastic four is much more confident and sort of just a gratifying, pretty good picture all the way through. And I, And look, I didn't, you know, these days I'll take it.

48:04Josh Larsen:Yeah, Superman, I'll admit part of the reason, but I'm still recovering. Part of the reason I didn't make it to Fantastic Four. But with your recommendation and, you know, people being relatively high on Thunderbolts, I might, maybe I'm getting nudged, nudged back into the MCU here, Michael. We'll see what happens. Fantastic Four First Steps is currently playing in wide release. If you see it and agree or disagree with Michael's take, let us know. feedback at filmspotting.net.

48:50Josh Larsen:That's from the trailer for Sunlight from writer, director, and star Nina Conti. Conti plays Jane, and she's not, as she states, a birthday clown, but she is dressed in a full-body monkey costume, which, yeah, she wears for most of the movie's runtime. Michael, you know I'm fascinated with Manimals. We did a top five Manimals together years ago. One of clearly the best top fives in the show's history. I don't know if I'd actually go the Manimal direction here with Sunlight. it's not why I am nominating it for our golden brick award. Let me just put it that way, but I do want to throw sunlight into the ring for a golden brick because boy, we talk about, you know, looking for movies to consider for this award, having original vision and taking bold strokes.

49:42Josh Larsen:Yeah. How about a movie by a ventriloquist comedian of sorts who is writing it, co-writing it, directing and starring in a monkey costume. Just the fact that this works, Michael, that this isn't an abject disaster, I think is worth admiring. And it is much better than that. This film really worked for me. And it is all about, to my mind, Conti's performance. In some ways, you can tell it's a first film and maybe gets a little too easily cheery at the end. But this performance she gives as Jane, the woman behind the mask, it's alarmingly entertaining and works on a number of levels. The idea here, Jane is basically fleeing an abusive relationship.

50:31Josh Larsen:and you sense that past in the physicality of their performance and in the way that monkey, she calls herself monkey, is assertive, crude, and irrationally confident in the ways that Jane can't otherwise be. She also speaks, I think, in what's supposed to be a vaguely British accent, which is very funny. But most of the humor comes down to that physicality. There are details like, you know, Jane just resting her head on the dashboard of this vehicle. She falls in with a man who's actually co-wrote the film. It's the co-star here, Shanoa Allen. He's playing a radio personality who's on the road and she falls in with him and she's in his motor home.

51:16Josh Larsen:And when she just lays her head on the dashboard, there's something melancholy, but funny about this mask doing it. And the mask in general works. It has dead eyes. And whenever she looks at the camera, it's almost like a Rorschach test for the audience, for the viewer, trying to read what she might be thinking and what we're thinking about her. But then comedy too, she keeps her flip phone in the monkey suit. So she has to zip it down to get her phone out. When she gets hot, she dumps some ice in the suit. And then there's pathos as well, as we realize how severe the personality split between Jane and monkey has become, how it's, it's escalating and becoming something that's actually concerning.

51:59Josh Larsen:So, so this is, it's a cringe-free ventriloquism movie that made me genuinely laugh and I found moving. And that is a rare accomplishment that, yeah, I think does make it worthy of a golden brick nod.

52:15Michael Phillips:I know two people who would jolly well agree with you, and I really wish I'd seen this in time to talk about it, but my brother and his wife, my brother and sister-in-law saw this. They live in Albuquerque, New Mexico. The film was filmed in Albuquerque, New Mexico and in Virens. And so I think it's that second filmmaker you mentioned came and introduced it in this tiny little, wonderful little arthouse theater that Albuquerque is sustaining quite nicely. And they loved it. They thought exactly the same. I mean, they laughed a lot. They couldn't believe that the premise didn't dry out after 15 minutes.

52:54Michael Phillips:And by the end, they were quite touched by it. And so it's, you know, what you're describing sounds like, remember that film Frank with Michael Fassbender and Domhnall Greene? Yes, which was quite good. Quite good, right? And it's that whole thing about sort of like, you know, a bit about sort of like cloaking your identity or, you know, behind some crazy mask or, you know, an artificial front, right? And yet finding a weird sort of freedom in it. And, you know, this is a simple idea, but it's a workable one. But, you know, your recommendation on top of brother and sister and my sister-in-law, I'm going to check it out.

53:32Josh Larsen:Good. I'm glad it's getting some good word of mouth. That was probably, yeah, who I mentioned, Shanoa Allen, Conti's creative partner, you know, off screen as well in other pursuits, but did co-write Sunlight with her and also co-stars in the film. So, Sunlight had a limited theatrical run this month, but it is available now on streaming services. Just came out this week. So, if it sounds intriguing to you, check it out. And as far as the golden brick goes, we have a healthy list of nominees at this point. If you want to see other titles on there, go to filmspotting.net slash bricks. Next week, Adam is going to be back, and we have a big task ahead of us.

54:15Josh Larsen:We are going to indulge in a Pantheon Project review of 1975's One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest. It is the film's 50th anniversary. It's been quite some time since I've seen it. So we'll dig deep into that one. And we're going to pair it with our top five Jack Nicholson performances. Michael, springing this a little bit on you, I know I had mentioned we were going to talk Joaquin Phoenix performances on this show. But just top of your head, do you have a go-to favorite Nicholson performance or maybe a less praised one that I should try to catch up with as homework that you don't think folks talk about enough?

54:54Michael Phillips:Gosh, yeah. Thanks for the warning on that, Josh. Just go with the favorite.

55:00Josh Larsen:Just go with the favorite. Take the easy way out.

55:02Michael Phillips:Usually I devote a spa month to working these things out privately. Oh, as do Adam and I. I mean, that's our process. I really, it was 74, I think, or 73 when I saw The Last Detail, 74, I think Robert Townscript. Yes. That was, you know, that was especially bracing to see your first, probably too young. I saw a lot of R-rated movies that year. That's kind of when it all started for me. But Nicholson, nobody considered him anything predictable or familiar at that point. He was an established presence for sure. But he's great in The Last Detail and he just drives the movies excellent. I think in a smaller role that I saw the film, like it, don't love it, Reds saw it recently again.

55:57Michael Phillips:Is that 81, I think, from Warren Beatty's film about John Reed and Diane Keaton? And Nicholson plays Eugene O 'Neill, and he loses almost all of what you might call the Nicholson-isms in this very stern and very careful performance, full of charisma. He's really a great addition to that ensemble. So yeah, those two. Those two. All right.

56:23Josh Larsen:Last detail is homework that I recently did, and it was quite amazing. I I'm, I'm comparing it to my experience with, uh, Gene Hackman and Al Pacino and Scarecrow. When we did our top five Hackman scenes, I caught up with Scarecrow for the first time and, you know, just felt horrible for taking so long. Similarly with the last detail, it paid off and very likely will a Nicholson scene from the last detail show up on my list. So that is coming up next week. If you want to see our schedule of all our future shows, you can check that out at film spotting.net slash episodes. Michael, you know, I've been doing Ebert interrupt us out in Boulder, Colorado at the conference on world affairs for a number of years now.

57:09Josh Larsen:And yeah, brought it a version of it. Cinema interrupt us to Chicago last December and am doing it again just next month at the Gene Siskel film center. Have you, I don't think you ever had a chance to see Roger do Interruptus at Boulder. Did you all those years?

57:26Michael Phillips:No, no. And I'd love to do one a year or something.

57:29Josh Larsen:That would be great. That would be great. I hope to do many more. But yeah, one of my great regrets is not getting out to Boulder to do that when Roger Ebert was doing it. But yeah, an honor to be able to continue the tradition and have a version of it here in Chicago. So as I mentioned, it's going to be August 11 through 14, and we are diving deep into 1992's The Player. It's part of the Film Center's Altman Centennial. series. Interruptus is four days of communal film criticism. That's how I've been describing it to people. We basically will watch the player in its entirety on day one and then come back, start it at the beginning, and for subsequent days, make our way through it scene by scene.

58:08Josh Larsen:And folks can yell stop, ask a question, make a comment at any time. So it's possible to come for all four days. Buy a ticket package for that. That would be awesome. Make it a journey. Make it a team effort, join me on that. But if you can only pop in for one day, single day tickets are also available. You can get either of those at ciscofilmcenter.org slash interruptus.

58:32Michael Phillips:Can I ask how it went with Phantom Thread?

58:36Josh Larsen:Oh, just as you can imagine, a perfect movie for interruptus where you can dive deep in every aspect, the cinematography, that wonderful score and the performances, but also that relationship between Alma and Reynolds, which, you know, four days debating that with folks. And I don't think we're any closer to understanding the true nature of that relationship. So, so yeah, Phantom Thread, Phantom Thread was perfect. The player a little different in terms of what we'll be dissecting, but I know those, those Altman zooms I'm going to spend some time on all the movie references that are in there. I'm going to show some bonus material from some of the films, the posters that are in the background.

59:18Josh Larsen:So I think the player will be a different Interruptus experience than Phantom Thread, but an equally rewarded one. So I can't wait to do that in a couple of weeks. Again, if anyone wants tickets, go to ciscofilmcenter.org slash Interruptus. This week on our sister podcast, The Next Picture Show, looking at cinemas present via its past. They've got a new pairing and it's more Superman talk. So yes, listeners, If you were disappointed at my take and Adam's take, we were both pretty down on James Gunn's Superman and Michael's previous relative endorsement of it. If you want more, perhaps you'll find support from the next picture show.

59:59Josh Larsen:They're going to be talking about the new Superman in relation to the 1978 Richard Donner Superman. Superman. Now that's a film. We did our top five Superman moments, Michael, on last week's show and gave the 78 Superman a lot of love trying to make up for not loving the 2025. Now it's the next picture show folks turn to dive into Superman new episodes drop every Tuesday. You can get them wherever you get your podcasts. And for more next picture show related content, listen to Keith Phipps' new podcast, The Laser Age. Keith, of course, one of the Next Picture Show hosts. Yeah, I've listened to Keith's first episode, enjoyed it quite a bit.

1:00:41Josh Larsen:This series is exploring science fiction films from the second half of the 20th century. Again, you can find that wherever you get your podcasts.

1:00:50Michael Phillips:60 years of Whistler Blackcomb, two legendary mountains, thousands of stories, ski and ride legendary terrain and experience world-class snow sport events, concerts at the edge of the mountain, gravity-defying fire and ice shows and more. This winter, go beyond. Plan your trip to Whistler Blackcomb.

1:01:05Josh Larsen:Wait a minute. Haven't I seen you before? I know your face. Get out or shall I call my servant?

1:01:21Josh Larsen:It is time for another deeply flawed film spotting poll question. That was who else? Gloria Swanson with William Holden in Billy Wilder's Sunset Boulevard. Sunset Boulevard is another film that will be getting the Pantheon project treatment in a couple of weeks. We've been doing a lot of Wilder this summer. We just revisited The Apartment a few shows ago. Thinking about these two Wilder films, Michael, I'm going to ask you a very tough question, or maybe it's very easy for you. You can only pick one. You can only have one. The Apartment or Sunset Boulevard.

1:01:56Michael Phillips:What is this, July Madness? I don't want to do that kind of stupid comparing.

1:02:01Josh Larsen:Stupid comparing. You only participate in such things during Film Spotting Madness. And even then, it's more begrudgingly than I do. So I guess you're just not going to answer, are you?

1:02:14Michael Phillips:No, I will. I will. I think Sunset Boulevard is the greater film. But I really love The Apartment, and I love how The Apartment feels to a new generation seeking some sort of bittersweet romantic comedy that isn't all just a bunch of falderal. You know, a romantic comedy that really earns both the laughs and sort of the pathos. people there's a new generation every 20 minutes there's a new 22 or 29 year old or 15 year old that discovers the apartment and they maybe forever maybe just for that year it is their new favorite film and i love that so uh it's a tie josh sorry oh it's a tie oh i see that's not

1:03:05Josh Larsen:allowed um you will be getting a letter from our attorney but i can attest to your your experience because for this conversation we had, this rewatch, both my daughters really enjoyed The Apartment as well. And maybe it's recency bias, but I am going to make a pick and I'm going to go with The Apartment. Nevertheless, I am excited about revisiting Sunset Boulevard. Maybe I'll change my answer. And that is the film that is inspiring our new poll question. Actresses, plain actresses who are going through it. So that is producer Sam's way of limiting this poll to performances that share, you know, they have some angst to them.

1:03:45Josh Larsen:So he didn't want to include comedies or musicals. He didn't want to include, apparently, Dustin Hoffman as Tootsie. So it's actresses, plain actresses who are going through it. Michael, I believe you have the options, the poll options there in front of you. Would you mind reading through those for us?

1:04:02Michael Phillips:I'd be honored, Josh. Betty Davis, All About Eve, Jenna Rollins, Opening Night, Gloria Swanson, Sunset Boulevard, Juliette Binoche, The Clouds of Sils Maria. Laura Dern, Inland Empire. Good choice. Naomi Watts, Mulholland Drive. That's a good list. Natalie Portman, May, December. Scarlett Johansson, Asteroid City. That's a good list. Or other. And I'd like to hear if somebody come up with a good... There's others in that category, but that's a great list. It has your approval.

1:04:35Josh Larsen:Will it get a vote from you? Do you have an obvious choice? I'll say while you're thinking, for me, I think I'm going to have to go with Jenna Rollins. I know a woman under the influence is the broadly acclaimed consensus choice for her career performance. But, man, is she incredible in opening night. So I think that's where I would go. How about you, Michael? Boy, mm-mm-mm-mm-mm.

1:05:01Michael Phillips:I haven't seen that for decades, so I'd have to see it again to kind of see where it falls on the list for me. But, you know, I guess if I had to go for 1950, it's either All About Eve or Sunset Boulevard. I mean, I'd probably go Betty Davis, actually. And I'd probably go for more modern, I'd probably go Naomi Watts. Because I just, you know, I think that what she has to do in Mulholland Drive is make sense of two very different psyches. And it's great work. So, yeah, that's a fruitful list, Sam.

1:05:42Josh Larsen:A fruitful list. Okay. And yet you're still trying to squirm out of it, I see. Okay. That's fine. I am. Listeners who can vote, who can just choose one, who can be disciplined, you can do that. And you can also leave a comment at filmspotting.net. We're going to share results and some feedback in a couple of weeks. I am so sorry for what your daddy passed down to you. But I wanted a child, the greatest gift of my life.

1:06:19Josh Larsen:I'm visiting my mother tomorrow. That's Joaquin Phoenix in Bo Is Afraid from director Ari Aster. Back in 2023, Adam and I used the occasion of Bo to share our top five Phoenix performances with Phoenix reuniting with Aster again in Eddington. We are reuniting you, the listener, with this top five. But before we get to that, Michael, since you're here, only natural to ask if there are any favorite Joaquin Phoenix performances you'd like to talk about. Yeah.

1:06:51Michael Phillips:Yeah, there's a few. I guess I like the ones, for me, the ones that require to him a different side than the more obvious sort of strangulated torment. You know, the stuff that wins Oscars, you know, vis-a-vis Joker, let's say. I actually really like this. It's super solid work in Walk the Line, and he turned out to be a very good choice for that Johnny Cash biopic. I think The Master is really inventive work that daringly starts on such an extreme note of distress with that character, Freddie Quell, that the movie can barely recover from it. But somehow it does. And so does Phoenix. I really love his work with Spike Jonze on her, which I'm due for a rewatch.

1:07:46Michael Phillips:But I haven't seen it since it came on, I think, all the way through. But another one I'd utterly forgotten, and this is the other one I'd mentioned, another one I'd almost forgotten is Lynn Ramsey's You Were Never Really Here, where that's much more of a, I mean, that's an explosively violent picture. And I had, you know, it's only since 2017, it's only been eight years since I've seen it. But I, you know, I don't retain much of a clear memory of it. But rereading it, his work is really good in that. And I just think he is, one of the best things about Phoenix is that he really seeks out and responds to a variety of directors that he may lock horns with half the time.

1:08:25Michael Phillips:I don't know. I suspect he does. But that's what's keeping him reasonably, more than reasonably, that's what's keeping him vital and worth seeing what he's up to next. The one thing he can't do, Josh, you want to hear it? The one thing that I think we'll never get from Joaquin Phoenix? The one thing he doesn't have, and no actor has everything or can do everything or anything. He doesn't have great verbal facility, I think. He knows how to use his voice beautifully in a lot of different keys and for different kind of shades of character. But when you see something like Inherent Vice, which is all about that time of patience.

1:09:09Michael Phillips:That's what I was thinking. He's not a guy who can spit out a lot of crazy gobbledygook crisply. You know, he doesn't have that. It's just, it's something, it's just, part of it's just the physical equipment you're born with. Part of it is the training you either have or have, don't have as a screen actor. It's the one thing he's, you know, it's, it's the one thing in almost every kind of film he's done. and he's done almost every genre, where if he has to do that, where he has to really propulsively zip through a scene, and it's a lot about just how fast you can handle the language and sling it, you know, in another character's direction, he's not the guy.

1:09:47Michael Phillips:And that's an interesting, I wouldn't call it a drawback, but because, you know, he is just like every other really good actor on the planet. He cannot do everything equally well. But those are some of the ones I think very fondly of.

1:10:00Josh Larsen:Now, can I pay you a licensing fee or something and use the phrase strangulated torment to describe Phoenix going forward? Because I think that's just perfect. That is what he specializes in, especially in something like the master and is just so good at evoking that sort of experience. Look at your fee structure, Michael, and get back to me because I do want to use that phrase at some point. Now, speaking of her, which you called out, as listeners will hear, that was a performance that we excluded from our top five list, Michael. And that's where Phoenix played Theodore, of course, and Spike Jonze is her.

1:10:41Josh Larsen:The reason we did that is because we had devoted a bonus episode to that film for its 10th anniversary, which I think was right around the time we did this top five list. So there was a lot of talk about Phoenix's performance in her on that bonus episode. We did repost that her review in our main podcast feed this week. So you can find that wherever you get your podcasts. And, you know, if you want to make sure you always get our monthly bonus episodes, just join the film spotting family at filmspottingfamily.com. All right. Now from April, 2023, here are our top five Joaquin Phoenix performances.

1:11:22Josh Larsen:We are ready to dive into this top five, look at our favorite performances by someone who is one of the best actors, if not the best actors working today. We do have one disclaimer. We're setting aside one film that would have definitely made both of our lists. One performance by Joaquin Phoenix, and that's not because it's been talked about a lot over the course of the show's history. It's actually because we're going to be talking about it coming up. Yeah, we have our next bonus show for film spotting family members focusing on her, the 10 year old. It's the 10th anniversary of Spike Jonze's Her, believe it or not.

1:12:01Josh Larsen:So that was one reason we wanted to revisit it. Also considering Joaquin Phoenix for this top five and with Bo is Afraid, we thought it'd be another good chance to take a look at her. And, of course, we're living right now not only in the age of AI, but chat GPT. So that plot is going to have a lot of resonance for us, I think. And we will be spending a fair amount of time talking about Phoenix's performance in Her. So we are setting that aside, putting it in the penalty box for this list. Officially, though, I think we can say, Adam, it would be on both of our lists. Yeah, one of his best performances as Theodore in Her, without a doubt.

1:12:38Josh Larsen:Let's get into our list, though. I can't wait to hear what you've got at number five. All right. I am going sort of back to the beginning with Jimmy Emmett from To Die For. Now, Phoenix had been in a number of pictures before, so this isn't exactly his first or second role even, but it was his breakout. Gus Vincent's 1995 satire about fame and celebrity. Phoenix's Jimmy is one of the high schoolers who falls under the spell of Nicole Kidman's aspiring TV reporter. She seduces him, manipulates him into killing her husband. Couldn't you just get a divorce? And then... And then he would get the condo.

1:13:18Josh Larsen:And he'd get the car. And he'd take Walter from me. He'd take Walter. Listen, I know you think I'm just a kid, but... I could never do anything bad to you. Or ever hurt you. A guy that does that to someone like you doesn't deserve to live. That's the truth. He doesn't deserve to live. No, I suppose you're right. He doesn't. What's interesting to me about this performance, especially looking through the lens of the rest of Phoenix's career, is that right from the start, he had no interest in audience sympathy. Did not seem like something that he cared about, was on his radar at all. Yet, he nevertheless gets it.

1:14:10Josh Larsen:Somehow in this character, we do have a bit of sympathy for Jimmy Emmett. Even though he's a messy kid making bad decisions, Phoenix brings that out in us while being completely committed to those more negative aspects of the character. I did turn to social media to help me make some of these other Phoenix performance picks just to see beyond her, you know, and some of the other obvious ones, what people's favorites were. And I got a few interesting responses when it came to Jimmy Emmett here. A few people who also picked it. Adam Rupert touched on this audience sympathy quality on Facebook, said that scene where he's shaking so bad while being questioned by the police.

1:14:51Josh Larsen:Heartbreaking. And then over on Twitter, Marissa Jude. She's at Marissa Jude here. said, Phoenix reminded me of Juliette Lewis's performance in Cape Fear, the exquisite and nuanced expression of vulnerability and desire that seems unteachable. Well said by both. I love that comparison to Juliette Lewis. Also one of those just deeply uncomfortable, unsettling breakout performances from a younger performer. And I think it does apply to what Phoenix is doing here as Jimmy Emmett in To Die For. An honorable mention for me, one that was a strong contender for my top five. And you're right, the performance that surely put him on the map for a lot of viewers put him on the map for me.

1:15:35Josh Larsen:Now, I had seen him first as Leaf Phoenix then in Space Camp in the mid 80s, but I wasn't paying a whole lot of attention then to him as someone who I thought would be one of the best actors of his generation. But you're correct. And the listener is correct, that he plays a character who shouldn't be heartbreaking, but is. He's a killer. And we have to buy that he's going to make the leap he does as a character. He's naive, certainly. He's malleable. He's gullible in that way. But he doesn't seem overly dangerous. And for him then to get to that point where he is going to murder Matt Dillon's character, we have to buy that.

1:16:19Josh Larsen:And we buy it because Phoenix makes him damaged enough that you can go there as quickly as you do with him. But then he also plays him as an innocent so that he just becomes part of this tragic, manipulative web of Kidman's character. He's another victim in it all. I wonder if damaged is going to come up quite a bit on our list. That word, that's a good one that fits. Absolutely. My number five Joaquin Phoenix performance is the performance that earned him the first of his four Academy Award nominations. He did not win. We know he won for a performance that might come up later on one of our lists.

1:16:58Josh Larsen:Josh. This was his best supporting actor nominated turn as Commodus in Ridley Scott's Gladiator. And I googled this just Gladiator Commodus earlier today to get a little bit of background on the real life person that he was portraying. Not that it matters, but I was curious because I hadn't read anything. And this is the first thing that popped up. Commodus was a terrible ruler by virtually any standard. His fictionalized depiction as a mad emperor in the film Gladiator actually plays down some of his less believable excesses while giving him a nobler death. So just keep that in mind, Josh, that that sniveling, conniving, evil little baby that Joaquin Phoenix plays is actually exhibiting some restraint.

1:17:44Josh Larsen:Yeah, yeah. He's underplaying it, apparently. He's underplaying it. We joke, I do genuinely enjoy the theatricality of the performance. I think it's a nice counter to the un-theatricality of Russell Crowe's. performance. We get one great moment I always see in my head where Commodus is watching a battle and there's a big blood spurt and he lets out this lusty response with his tongue hanging out and he's kind of gritting his teeth and growling at the response. But in general, that character, the way Phoenix portrays him is angstier than Robert Pattinson in The Batman and Adam Driver in any of those Star Wars movies combined.

1:18:27Josh Larsen:He is so quiet and deliberate. It's as if it's wrenching him to even speak. It pains him so much. And he's a weak character. He's more than that. He's evil. But Phoenix really does give him some dimension. We see the emotional havoc it wreaks on him to be weak, to not live up to his father's image or to his father's expectations. And Phoenix amplifies, I think, his self-awareness. Even then, it was as if you didn't want me for your son. Oh, Commodus. You go too far. I search the faces of the gods for ways to please you, to make you proud. One kind word.

1:19:22Michael Phillips:One full hug. Why, you pressed me to your chest and held me tight.

1:19:28Josh Larsen:Phoenix with Richard Harris there as Marcus Aurelius. One full hug, Josh. Press me to your chest and held me tight. That's all he's longed for. I guarantee you that Russell Crowe's Maximus is never saying the word hug in Gladiator. And we don't expect any characters to say the word hug in a lot of Gladiator type movies. But when he says, all I've ever wanted was to live up to you, Caesar, father, you believe him. You really believe the emotional depth of that. I have not seen Gladiator since it came out when I liked it well enough. But it's interesting, you know, how careers have gone in terms of the stars and so forth.

1:20:14Josh Larsen:The reason I would rewatch Gladiator now is to reconsider that Joaquin Phoenix performance. Just in terms of how his career has ascended, Russell Crowe's has tailed off. And you wouldn't think that, yeah, I'm going to go look at Gladiator again for the acting necessarily. But that is what still intrigues me. And maybe I'll have to do a revisit for that. All right. Number four for me is Meryl Hess in Signs. This is Phoenix in likable mode in M. Night Shyamalan's alien invasion thriller. Likeable mode is something he can do and does on occasion. Not very often, however, but it's kind of fun and rewarding when he pulls it out of his toolkit.

1:20:53Josh Larsen:I also like here how he effortlessly slips into what is essentially an ensemble piece. I mean, Mel Gibson is the lead, of course, but this is an ensemble drama in a lot of ways. And Phoenix comes in to do things you might not expect to lighten the mood, lighten the movie's edges a little bit. He just has a wonderfully light comic touch, and I think it's probably best displayed when he gives the response to Mel Gibson's long soliloquy about miracles or coincidences. This is an occasion of Shyamalan, I think, also kind of undercutting himself and being aware of his grand eloquent tendencies with this soliloquy here.

1:21:34Josh Larsen:But then in comes Phoenix. Meryl has given this whole speech some, you know, probably not so deep thought. And he decides he's a miracle man. I was at this party once. I'm on the couch with Randall McKinney. She's just sitting there looking beautiful, staring at me. I go to lean in and kiss her. And I realize I have gum in my mouth. so I turn take out the gum stuff in a paper cup next to the sofa and turn around random McKinney throws up all over herself

1:22:18Josh Larsen:I knew the second it happened it was a miracle I could have been kissing her when she threw up and would have scarred me for life Meryl is the sort of part that this movie You know, Signs didn't really need Meryl necessarily, but because of Phoenix's performance, now when I think about it, I can't imagine the film without him. You know, just because of the contributions he makes and, again, the different vibes he brings to this film. Another fan of this performance is Aaron Bergstrom over on Twitter, at Aaron Bergstrom. He wrote, Phoenix is so often associated with playing weirdos, often dangerous ones.

1:22:56Josh Larsen:And so when I look back at his performance as a well-meaning fella like Meryl, I appreciate how good he is at depicting loyalty and bravery. So, yeah, maybe a simpler character than some of the others he plays, but he plays it just right. He does. Very good in that scene. Very good in that film. Interesting that we've got back-to-back choices in which we hear Joaquin Phoenix whispering primarily, talking very, very quietly, different circumstances. and Meryl, not exactly an evil character. My number four, I've got another weirdo. Definitely one of Joaquin Phoenix's weirdos. And you were talking about him in terms of whether he plays characters who are likable or unlikable.

1:23:40Josh Larsen:This is one who I don't even know where to put him on that scale. And it's not because he's got things about him that make him someone that you really respond to favorably and even aspire to be like. That's not the case at all. But he also isn't so bad that you despise him ever either. He's just an immensely flawed character. And that character is Leonard Kraditor in James Gray's Two Lovers. So multiple collaborations with James Gray. I'm going with his performance as Leonard in Two Lovers. What a trip down memory lane it was, Josh, reminding myself about this film, this performance, and the context around it.

1:24:23Josh Larsen:I had completely forgotten that Two Lovers, the movie and this performance, were totally overshadowed at the time by the shenanigans surrounding the filming of I'm Still Here, which would come out two years later. or actually just a little over a year later in terms of when we reviewed this film two lovers on the show is february 27th 2009 that infamous david letterman appearance was february 11th 2009 so this was all in the wake of that and people were really watching two lovers thinking it was joaquin phoenix's swan song from acting it was supposedly his final performance as an actor because he was retiring to become a rapper and with all of that he had apparently completely lost his mind so here's my hope that after some time off uh and I think you're taking

1:25:20Michael Phillips:a little time off tonight I'm hopeful that you will reconsider and and come back to acting because you're just, you know, nobody really better than you are. Oh, that's sweet. Thank you.

1:25:41Josh Larsen:Never say never, right? I don't know. You don't know what? I don't know. I don't know what'll happen.

1:25:48Michael Phillips:But you are? You're not going to act anymore? No. Oh. Why is that?

1:25:57Michael Phillips:Mmm.

1:25:58Josh Larsen:I don't know. I mean you have given it some thought this will come up some more but going through my notes it was amazing as I look back on these different films that have been reviewed on the show how many times I'd use synonyms to describe his characters and movies in this case it was talking about a character who was always kind of floating through these scenes disconnected from everything, that the movie itself has an ethereal quality to it. It's basically a fable. You could apply similar words and phrases to Bo is Afraid or to some of these other performances that we'll probably talk about.

1:26:40Josh Larsen:For those who don't remember Two Lovers, it's pretty much what the name suggests. It's a movie about a love triangle. Leonard is involved with two different women, one who really wants to take care of him and wants to love him, and he's too neurotic to let her do it. That's Vanessa Shaw's character. And then there's another woman who he wants to take care of. And she's the one with the issues in allowing him to do that. That's Gwyneth Paltrow's character. But there's a melancholy to Leonard that makes him endearing or certainly endearing enough. And there's an intimacy that Grey captures with Phoenix and these women that is really striking in the way Phoenix can often be intimate on screen and also make you a little bit uncomfortable at the same time.

1:27:33Josh Larsen:There's an intensity to these intimate scenes that can be both off-putting and something that also brings you in. And what really stands out about Phoenix in this role, but again, I'm sure many others we might get to, he's someone who's utterly uninterested in vanity. He has no interest in being cool on screen. And Leonard is not cool. And he also has no interest in being conventionally masculine, which is also one of the things that I think really does define Phoenix as a fascinating performer. He's volatile, but the softer and the more vulnerable he is on screen, the more interesting he is. And that's certainly the case here with Leonard in Two Lovers.

1:28:18Josh Larsen:You think if I got to know you that I wouldn't love you? But I do know you, and I love you even more. I understand you, Michelle. I'm f***ing up too. I will never walk away from you. Never. He left you. I'll never do that. I'll take care of you. Well, you went with the one Joaquin Phoenix-James Gray collaboration I have not seen, but I've liked the other two. So I'm going to assume you're right in this pick, Adam. I especially like him in the yards. I can still picture kind of his devilish face in that one. So yeah, these two have been really strong collaborators. My number three pick is with another filmmaker he has worked with twice now, and that would be Paul Thomas Anderson.

1:29:10Josh Larsen:Here at number three, I have Larry Doc Sportello from Inherent Vice. We've touched on a little bit his comedic abilities, and I think this is the movie of all of his that I've seen that puts them on display the most. This adaptation of Thomas Pynchon's comic gumshoe novel. It's set against the druggie beach scene of 1970 California. Doc Sportello is this hazy private detective just eking out a living of sorts in a beach shack just a few blocks from the ocean. And as happens in these sort of tales, he gets caught up in a rabbit hole of an investigation. Phoenix has so much fun with the curlicue noir dialogue here and the chance to play really this addled fool who's sometimes smarter than he's presenting himself and a lot of times not or or let's just say not in complete control of his faculties and just watching phoenix have fun with that is such a blast so many of the laughs come from observing doc trying to focus in the midst of these increasingly ridiculous conversations with all sorts of characters And this includes Josh Brolin's Lieutenant Detective Bigfoot Bjornsson.

1:30:20Michael Phillips:Don't get up. Bigfoot and smashed on my door. Come on. After a long and busy day of civil rights violations, I found myself in the neighborhood and compelled to drop in. Just to check and see the current state of affairs, my old stomping grounds. seeing as your effort to keep lines of communication have been limited, to say the least. Well, I've been busy. Trying to figure out which side of the zigzag paper is the sticky side.

1:30:58Josh Larsen:This is not just a comedic performance, though. A few listeners mentioned when they made this pick some of the other qualities that appealed to them about the performance. Andrew Bodenbach on Facebook said he's hilarious and ridiculous, But what really hits is how compassionate he is. He really cares about people. I think you do feel that. And here's from Jeremy S. Wade, at American Wade on Twitter. You just really want that poor son of a bitch to get a win. And this kind of speaks, I think, more to the, you come around to his character's side so often, despite all evidence to the contrary that that's where you should be.

1:31:33Josh Larsen:And there's a little bit of that element here in Doc Sportello as well. It's also fun to think about this being the performance, going back to the idea of collaborations, this being the performance and the character that he and Paul Thomas Anderson wanted to explore together after working on The Master. So interesting choice. I don't want to get ahead of myself, so I'll leave that there. And I don't want to get ahead of myself either, Josh. So I will also leave Larry Dox Portello right there and go to my number three, Joaquin Phoenix performance. A performance in a film that no one will apply the words fun to or blast to like you just did with inherent advice.

1:32:12Josh Larsen:But one connection, you've got Phoenix in your number three chasing down a missing girl in a complex conspiracy. And so do I. But Joe from Lynn Ramsey's 2017 film, You Were Never Really Here, is definitely not the teddy bear, the compassionate teddy bear that Doc Sportello is. And Joe suffers from something that Doc doesn't, which is severe trauma. So you've got a character who is all about repression and is all about withholding. Other than the blunt acts of violence that he carries out, he's not demonstrative. He's certainly not vocal. He barely speaks. This has to be the fewest lines that Phoenix has in any one of his performances.

1:32:57Josh Larsen:He's a big physical presence, like with Bo is Afraid. He put on weight for this role, and he certainly carries it. It's not a weight that manifests itself certainly in muscle or as if he's been hitting the gym a lot. He is someone who carries a big burden and needs a big frame to do it. And yet somehow Phoenix makes him feel like a ghost, like he's incapable of leaving a footprint. He's just moving through the world almost invisible to everyone around him. A line that has always stuck with me from that film is when a character says, and if I remember the context right, they're not using it negatively.

1:33:42Josh Larsen:I think they may need his skills. They say, I hear you're brutal. And Phoenix says, I can be. and something about the the kind of flat delivery of that the succinct screenwriting there just having him say i can be it's a case where phoenix in the performance could indicate in that line reading or with some kind of physicality or something on his face before during after he says it he could indicate that well he's not really a monster he doesn't want to be brutal but sometimes he has to be. And again, he's not someone who's interested in being cool on screen. He's not someone who's interested, it would seem, in indicating those things to the audience.

1:34:30Josh Larsen:He's willing to play Joe for exactly who he is, and his future actions, his choices, will determine what we ultimately think of him. How many, Josh, Killer Seeks redemption movies have we seen i don't know if we've done that top five before we probably have like assassins with a heart of gold or something it's a well-worn convention at this point and phoenix gives any beat that might feel familiar a completely different spin what's your name mr god i'm mr rogers this time i'll ask you some questions please be honest with me security how many are there huh so one more than one two three come on talk two two where

1:35:24Michael Phillips:why in the house are there one guy inside the front door second guy on the top floor where's the playground playground look under each girl's third floor he makes this character joe a

1:35:42Josh Larsen:truly enigmatic one and that he makes some choices sometimes that are confusing or bewildering or troubling or upsetting but you don't ever actually question him as a man and i think that's where the term damaged will come back into play here at least one more time as a damaged man that's the word that pops up here i'm just pulling up my review and i liked it a little less than you but did appreciate how the filmmaking aligned itself with Phoenix's performance and the character's headspace, right? Lynn Ramsey using just a lot of impressionistic imagery. And I think of that, the haunting sound design as well.

1:36:22Josh Larsen:But yeah, I wrote how this is all geared toward evoking Joe's deranged, damaged point of view. So there it is. We do have two more. A reminder, we set her and Theodore aside, although we both love those performances. We're going to talk about that movie coming up soon in some bonus content for film spotting family members. What do you have at number two? This might be where you want to go get some more popcorn and something to drink. Maybe look for a lid, an elusive lid, because it's Arthur Fleck in Joker. I do think that Phoenix has a talent above all for miserableness. And to me, this is one of his most fascinating ones.

1:37:01Josh Larsen:Arthur Fleck. The movie itself, we don't need to relitigate it. I know I'm one of the few people who take it seriously. I'll say I still feel okay about that a couple years on. I think we've only seen more disgruntled individuals lashing out at society. That hasn't lightened up in recent years, so I think this movie resonates in that way. And I also think that is what connects with Phoenix's performance. Arthur Fleck is both a symptom and a symbol of societal breakdown in Joker. And that is something that Phoenix communicates through a performance of operatic physicality. so yeah I like the movie there's a lot there but for me it's Phoenix who is the centrifugal force and I am mesmerized by his carefully choreographed but seemingly chaotic clumsiness in this movie that's also what makes this a somewhat funny performance I think of him running down the streets or hallways his limbs all askew he's not but he might as well be wearing clown shoes that's how he runs.

1:38:04Josh Larsen:I think about him slipping and fumbling with a gun on the subway in that sequence where he's trying to defend himself from his attackers. And then, yeah, the dance on those steps. I love so much the dance and then his comic scrambling away when the cops come, interrupt him and undercut the whole scene. Now, as outward as so much of this is, Phoenix, this is the thing he does. We've touched on a number of times. He internalizes all of this as well. So you're getting both. He's using physicality to convey an internal brokenness. And we get another man whose wires just seem to be crossed. And in this movie, he's stuck in a society that doesn't care at all to even bother trying to uncross them.

1:38:45Josh Larsen:You just ask the same questions every week. How's your job? Are you having any negative thoughts? All I have are negative thoughts, but you don't listen anyway. I said for my whole life, I didn't know if I even really existed. But I do. And people are starting to notice. I heard from Anton Varfort over on Twitter who said, Joker is good. I think there is a vulnerability or maybe even something damaged. There it is to Joaquin that makes him work especially well in those kind of roles. I don't think the movie was amazing, but it wasn't just a king of comedy ripoff. So, yep, I'm going with Arthur Fleck.

1:39:34Josh Larsen:My number two, I think, you know, technically, if we were including her, I'd probably have it up this high and Joker would be at three. But for now, it's my number two Joaquin Phoenix performance. Yeah, let's just go ahead and keep this positive. I'm not going to rehash any of my comments about not only the film, but actually it turns out I didn't even really like Joaquin Phoenix's performance. I know, I know. Terrible, terrible, Adam. That to me, especially after preparing for this list, is genuinely unthinkable, because I think he can pull off the impossible, and yet Joker was too much for Joaquin Phoenix in this case.

1:40:13Josh Larsen:I've got at number two a performance that you already mentioned some crossover here Paul Thomas Anderson Larry Doc Sportello from Inherent Vice which contains what is still probably my funniest moment in any Paul Thomas Anderson film when early in the movie he's talking to Jenna Malone's character at her kitchen table. she's recounting her heroin use and getting pregnant she shows a picture of little amethyst which phoenix's doc responds to this way this is what we had her looking like everybody hopefully pointed out how the heroin was actually coming through my breast milk but

1:41:00Josh Larsen:now i don't know that i've seen one used myself in the wild but not surprisingly if you search inherent vice scream or joaquin phoenix screaming all the gifts pop up this is a ready-made meme moment but it's really brilliant acting i mean malone she doesn't flinch at all when he screams like that she does say i don't know if you have the stomach for it before she hands him the photo So she knows that the picture is horrifying because she was breastfeeding, but using heroin at the time. But it's still her baby. And you still expect that Doc Sportello will react by repressing whatever his instinctual reaction is.

1:41:40Josh Larsen:You actually think he'll do what he does right after he screams, which is he looks again at the photo, even though he doesn't want to. He looks again at the photo, almost like he's assessing it, and he says, mm-hmm, and he's very clinical about it, but he can't help it. He's so horrified, he lets out that scream, and then it just immediately closes up, and I laugh every time I see it. And I do just love this gumshoe character who's in, as you said, this labyrinthine, pension world of early 70s L.A. in the setup to our review of this film. I described it this way. I said, take the big Lebowski's perpetually stoned protagonist, add the anachronistic absurdity and culture clashing of Altman's The Long Goodbye, mix in the borderline nonsensical plot machinations of the big sleep, and top it all off with the pervasive corruption of Chinatown.

1:42:35Josh Larsen:That's what you get with this film. And there's some pretty strong touchstones there. Not surprising that I love this movie as much as I do. And I think one of his real gifts, we've talked about a few of them, is that he's able to embody these characters who do kind of straddle these different worlds. He so naturally exudes being a man out of time, even literal time with this character and others in terms of the pace of his movements, his manner of speaking. He always moves at his own pace and often doesn't verbally respond in moments that you think a Walking Phoenix character would. He's he's processing.

1:43:19Josh Larsen:He's experiencing it. you experience it in real time with Phoenix's character. So I'm with you in my appreciation. I have it even higher. Doc Sportello at number two. A lot of processing going on by Doc in that movie. A lot of processing. Indeed. And that brings us to our number one, which is not a surprising pick, but we think it's the right pick, obviously. And it's a joint number one pick. There can only be one here. If we're talking about Phoenix and it turns out if we're talking about Phoenix and Paul Thomas Anderson. Yeah. I mean, in The Master is Freddy Quell. It's a character you immediately know when you first see him in that movie.

1:44:02Josh Larsen:You're not going to take your eyes off him, partly because you don't want him out of your sight for what he will do if he's out of your range of vision. So discomforting, so unnerving. Maybe the character that tests the theory the most of Phoenix somehow still attracting the audience's interest and sympathy. I think Freddie Quell pushes that the most. And it's only maybe having Philip Seymour Hoffman's master as something of an antagonist that allows that to happen, I think. Once we see how Freddie is being manipulated a little bit, we maybe begin to feel a little more sorry for him. But this is a broken, dangerous, scarred man.

1:44:47Josh Larsen:And I remember my first impression of The Master, a movie I've revisited a number of times. But coming away from it, that first screening was Phoenix's face and what he did to it. I don't know how he transformed physically so much. You know, we talk about losing weight, gaining weight for actors. I wrote his face was withered and worn, particularly when he scowls. it's almost as if his cleft lip has spread so that rivulets now also cross his cheeks his brow his chin and that also is a physical manifestation again of what's inside it's like all of this torture is bubbling and seeping out and it's coming out in his face it's also coming out how freddy walks how phoenix carries himself i want to get to this when we talk about his performance in her.

1:45:37Josh Larsen:There's some interesting examples of just, you know, his gait as an actor, and we see it here more than anywhere else. I think it's just this mask of torment that Phoenix wears and spreads to the rest of his body. And of course it does explode into violent physicality at times. I think one of the movie's first indications of this is that incredibly odd and uncomfortable scene where Freddie is working as a photographer at the department store. when he gets back from the war and he just lets his rage seep out into this passive-aggressive session with a client.

1:46:12Michael Phillips:I'm starting to sweat. You need to shut up. You need to move the gun. You need to shut up. You need to back off. Sit down. I'm very sorry. I'm trying to get the

1:46:31Josh Larsen:You can hear the simmering confrontation there, but there's also, of course, in what Phoenix does, again, the actions. There's the slow shoving of that hot lamp towards the man's face, then the choke-like tightening of the tie. And of course, again, that scowling look he has at the very beginning of the scene, just utter disdain for this guy. You know he hates this man. We could speculate on the reasons. I think the movie goes on to give us a few of them, but immediately Freddie Quell hates this man. It's going to go badly for him. So yeah, I'm with you. Master crowning achievement at this point in his career.

1:47:07Josh Larsen:Just a perfect marriage of the physical and the psychological that he's so good at. re-watching that scene today, I don't think it's an accident that the actor, if you look closely, the actor really resembles Philip Seymour Hopkins as Lancaster Dodd. Yeah, you're right. So it's foreshadowing the relationship he's going to have with that man as well, Lancaster Dodd. And we do get this seemingly unprovoked response, This disdain for this character. But it all starts when he asks him about who it's for. He says it's for his wife. This is this is the virile American male who is the domesticated version of a man that Freddie Quell can never be.

1:47:58Josh Larsen:Right. And it makes sense on some level that then that's going to be his instinctive response to him. And this movie is dealing with a lot of those subjects and those themes in a way that is not spelled out. But I really feel that Freddie Quell is carrying the burden of post-war America on his shoulders, on his pretty slight shoulders here. Yeah. Very thin and way more frail coming back from the war. And the way I described his character at the time was he's like an arthritic fist. You know, he's he's just crumpled up. Crumpled. We see it in that scene. It's as if every part of him is in pain.

1:48:34Josh Larsen:And I think he does remark at some point that he's got stomach pain. But you watch him in that scene when he's getting the camera ready. Freddy Quell acts as if he's perpetually experiencing heartburn. a terrible taste in his mouth. It is if he is always suffering or experiencing some pain. And you watch his mannerisms in that scene or throughout the movie as Freddy. I really think a lot of lesser actors who tried to embody that character, tried to evoke those feelings and the phrasing that we're summoning here they would make him overly theatrical they would make him feel like a character it wouldn't feel natural and it wouldn't have the power that it has the the putting his hand on his hips the the slouching that he does with his shoulders in the the facial reactions all the things we're saying phoenix makes it feel almost like freddie quell may have come out of the womb that way to go back to Bo is afraid.

1:49:39Josh Larsen:We know that's probably not the case that, that the war and his experiences there had to shape him somewhat into, if not completely into the man that we see now, this broken man that we see now, but he makes it feel as if this is his life experience. And we don't ever, we don't ever question it. I never questioned it. No performance. You, you'd pass this guy in the street. I, you know, that's, that's like a very basic litmus test you can give to any sort of reality-based performance at least can i imagine myself passing this guy in the street and in freddy quail's case absolutely and you would know by all of those things you described phoenix doing that communicates you'd want to step aside right it's just like this chances are i'll pass this guy it'll be fine chances are more likely it won't be.

1:50:30Josh Larsen:Yeah, even if he's not being a salt of himself in this moment. No, no, how he's carrying himself. It's just the energy. Yep. Those are our top five Joaquin Phoenix performances. Any honorable mentions, Josh, that you'd like to throw in? Yeah, I think we should get to this one because I saw this come up a lot on social media. People are big fans of the film Come On, Come On, and his performance as Johnny. This is from writer-director Mike Mills, and this is another a nice guy phoenix role right he's this single kind of emotionally reserved uncle of a young boy and he ends up caring for the boy while his mother and father are going through this difficult patch the boys played by woody norman they have great chemistry together um and it's a very generous and light turn i think that is as good as the other stuff he's done maybe just not isn't the epitome to me of what Phoenix is like so didn't quite make the cut maybe we can just take this process slowly and and and see how see how it feels yeah and I'm just really sorry that your children died um you know I don't think I can do that part yeah I told you that's how me and mom do

1:51:52Michael Phillips:it.

1:51:52Josh Larsen:If it makes sense for your mom to do that, that's cool, but it doesn't make sense for me. That's what I was explaining to you. Because it's ridiculous. It's sad. From April, 2023, those were our top five Joaquin Phoenix performances. You can see our picks and more top fives at filmspotting.net slash lists. Michael, that does it for us. Listeners, if you'd like to connect with us on social media, you can find Adam and the show on Instagram, Facebook, and Letterboxd at FilmSpotting. I'm at Larson on film at all those places, as well as Blue Sky. We are independently produced and listener supported.

1:52:32Josh Larsen:You can support the show by joining the FilmSpotting family at FilmSpottingFamily.com. You can listen early and ad-free. You'll also get a weekly newsletter, monthly bonus episodes, and access to the entire show archive. For show t-shirts and other merch, go to FilmSpotting.net slash shop. Now, in that film spotting archive, you will find reviews of all three previous Ari Aster films. So, Bo is Afraid on show 917, Midsommar 736, and Hereditary on 685. I'm going to do a quick ranking here, Michael, just because I recently revised my Ari Aster ranking on Letterboxd. I still have Hereditary up at the top.

1:53:14Josh Larsen:Maybe it's the horror fan in me. Just love that movie so much. I think I have Bo is Afraid next I think that's where I put it Because it and Eddington are close In that some things work for me Some things don't But I love the swings they're taking Midsommar I am positive on But I thought was the least successful Do you have a clear favorite of his, Michael? Or have you seen all four?

1:53:38Michael Phillips:I have It's a good question I haven't revisited Hereditary Because for me that wouldn't be an easy revisit Although it's very good, I think and unnerving as all hell. But I don't. I don't. I got to think about that. In a funny way, the movies themselves are so internally uneven and arguably inconsistent, yet he is consistently worth the provocations. I mean, that's a good sign. I think I feel the same way.

1:54:10Josh Larsen:Yep. Yeah, and I'm realizing now, Michael, you're basically coming away from this recording with a homework assignment that's pretty hefty. So I want your Ari Aster ranked list. I want you to choose between the apartment and Sunset Boulevard. And then I want you to vote in the film spotting poll about actresses playing actresses who are going through it. Okay. You got all that? Do you write all that down in your notebook?

1:54:31Michael Phillips:All right. Yeah, I'll do it. It'll be the last time I've ever, you know, darkened these doors again. But, you know, I'll do it. It's due next week. All right.

1:54:42Josh Larsen:On streaming and VOD right now, recently released, is Happy Gilmore 2. This has apparently Betty Safdie, Haley Joel Osment, Margaret Qualley, Travis Kelsey, and Bad Bunny. Make of all that what you will. In wide release, The Fantastic Four First Steps, recommended by Michael Phillips. Also in wide release, Oh Hi. This stars Molly Gordon from Shiva Baby Theater Camp and, of course, The Bear. She plays a woman who goes on a romantic getaway with a new boyfriend played by Logan Lerman. Next week, Adam is back and we will be doing a Pantheon project review of One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest in honor of its 50th anniversary.

1:55:23Josh Larsen:And we're also tackling our top five Jack Nicholson scenes. Film Spotting is produced by Golden Joe Dessau and Sam Van Halgren. Without Sam and Golden Joe, this show wouldn't go. Our production assistant is Sophie Kempinar. Special thanks to everyone at WBEZ Chicago. More information is available at wbez.org. And special, special thanks to Michael Phillips for helping me wade through my conflicted thoughts about Eddington. Michael, any work you've been up to coming out, things you're looking forward to that listeners should keep an eye out for?

1:56:01Michael Phillips:I mean, almost every week over at Classical WFMT, 98.7 FM here in Chicago, I introduce and host the first segment of the weekly program Soundtrack, a great array of film music, mostly. Film, TV, some video games, but mostly film. and I'm working on just all kinds of fascinating stuff including I think what I hope is going to be a piece that allows me to stretch out a bit and actually take time to do a proper Kim Novak interview and profile. She's getting a Lifetime Achievement Award at the Venice International Film Festival. I've been lucky enough to get invited back to Venice to be on this sort of off the main slate side panel called the Biennale College Cinema.

1:56:52Michael Phillips:Several critics in the country are going over to reconvene and do that. And I'd like to, and I'll just talk process right here. I don't care if it doesn't work out. You guys are all friends. I may try to get out to Oregon, where Ms. Novak lives and has lived for many decades now, and do an interview away from the red carpet first. and then catch up with her in Venice. So I'd love to do that. She is 100 % Chicago, a really great, very bittersweet in many ways, Chicago story, and I love it that she's getting the recognition now for one of the most unusual big stars Hollywood ever produced.

1:57:32Josh Larsen:Sounds like an incredible project. So all the best with that, and safe travels to Venice. Thanks again for joining me here. Thanks, Josh. It was fun. For Film Spotting, I'm Josh Larson. Thanks for listening. This conversation can serve no purpose anymore. Goodbye.

1:58:12Josh Larsen:ad-free episodes, monthly bonus shows, our weekly newsletter, and for the first time, all in one place, the entire FilmSpotting archive going back to 2005. That's filmspottingfamily.com.

1:58:42Josh Larsen:check active settlements, file fast, and avoid missing deadlines. No lawyers, no stacks of paperwork. Just a few quick questions, and Settlemente helps you claim what could already be yours. Plus, you can save 79 % with annual billing. Go now to Settlemente, S-E-T-T-L-E-M-A-T-E, dot I-O, and download the app today. That's Settlemente dot I-O. Start your claim today, and don't let your money take a summer vacation without you. I am talking to a felon right now with face tattoos and I cannot decide if I like him or not. That was a caller from my podcast Therapy Gecko, where I speak with anonymous callers about their problems, relationships, and anything else in the depths of their mind.

1:59:30Josh Larsen:It all happens on my show Therapy Gecko. So if you're trying to get out of your own head and into someone else's, this is the podcast for you. Listen to Therapy Gecko on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Dancing with the Stars is looking for a new pro. And since last season, I came in eighth place. I'm basically an expert. I'm Danielle Fischel. And I'm Val Schmerkowski. And we have a new podcast called Stepping on Toes with Danielle and Val. Every week, we're breaking down Dancing with the Stars, the next pro, to find out who I'll be sharing the ballroom with next season.

2:00:04Josh Larsen:Listen to Stepping on Toes on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Follow Stepping on Toes and start listening on the free iHeartRadio app today.

2:00:15Michael Phillips:30 years ago, an island off Manhattan almost brought down New York City.

2:00:19Josh Larsen:Who will you trust? Your friends and neighbors? Or will you trust the people five miles overseas?

2:00:24Michael Phillips:This is a story about neighbors turning on each other. And what happens when a forgotten place decides it's had enough. But we're not stopping, are we?

2:00:36Josh Larsen:Listen to Revisionist History, The Staten Island Problem on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.