Fargo: Lies, Myths, and Murder, plus The Invite | #1072

21:46Josh Larsen:And so that makes it tough to knock it from number one. After that, I have No Country. And then another unusual pick for me, I have True Grit as their third best film. But Fargo's coming up on that. To your point, if I watch those two back to back, who knows what would happen. But easily moving this into number four after this rewatch, what unlocked for me? It's an extension, I would say, Adam, of something that was gradually unlocking. The last time I watched this, this was 2021, so not that long ago. We were doing the Think Christian Movie Club series on the Coen brothers at the time. And it's interesting, it's related to something you just said, which I think is correct, comparing Llewyn Davis to Marge and Norm, this domestic happy life they could have.

22:29Josh Larsen:On this watch, how happy is this life that Marge and Norm share? And I'm not saying this is something that I entirely missed earlier, or that is even a criticism film. I think this is a nuance that the film is offering that I didn't pick up on until now, because I probably just love this notion of margin norm as these contrasts, not only to the Cohen universe, but to the Fargo universe. It was so cozy to get any scene of the two of them and catch your breath away from Jerry's frantic mania, away from the frighteningness of the criminals, um, away from all the other elements in the movie, the cold away from the cold exterior scenes.

23:14Josh Larsen:Here is Marge and Norm sharing a meal together quietly, happy. Just let me have that.

23:20Adam Kempenaar:What do we got here? Harbys? How's the painting going?

23:24Josh Larsen:Pretty good.

23:26Adam Kempenaar:Found out the Hauptmans are entering a painting this year. Oh, hon, you're better than them.

23:32Josh Larsen:They're real good.

23:33Adam Kempenaar:They're good, Norm, but you're better than them. You think so? You got Arby's all over me.

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26:15Josh Larsen:I think to the movie's credit, it is more complicated. And on this watch, you know, I think it's really about Marge's awareness of her own susceptibility to some sort of moral failure. And that a key thing this movie is asking us is, are humans capable of contentment? And this is in opposition to another human drive, which is greed, which is what's driving everything else in the film, right? And contentment is a virtue that this movie shows us is so difficult to cultivate. And here's where Mike Yanagida comes in. So again, this classmate, high school classmate, does that sound right? Or yeah, had to be high school, right?

27:02Josh Larsen:Yeah, I don't think he was a college classmate. So high school classmate calls Marge in the middle of the night because he saw her on TV investigating this case and wants to meet her up in the Twin Cities, meet with her in the Twin Cities. And I think this whole sequence presents her, and maybe some people got this the first time around. I know I didn't in 1996. It wasn't until, again, the most recent visiting where this kind of opened up for me. They meet. and, you know, notice what Marge wears. She wears this blouse that we haven't seen her in anything like that for this meeting. She touches her hair a little bit before approaching him at the table.

27:35Josh Larsen:She goes there supposedly to follow a lead for the case, but she doesn't make that decision until after Mike's call. And notice Norm's response, his surprise that she's going to go there for this. And I just think here that we're seeing Marge, once Mike clearly starts making a move, she rebuffs his awkward advances but that mortified look she has she looks down and she realizes for the first time that he'd been fooling her and she'd been fooling herself

28:05Adam Kempenaar:I shouldn't have done this I shouldn't have done this I thought we'd have a really terrific time you were such a super lady and then I've been so lonely

28:24Josh Larsen:in a sense it's almost like that question marge asks storm air at the very end adam and for what like why why did you was it worth all this and for what it's almost like she could be asking herself or is asking herself that same question in that moment why am i here and for what and so it's not just Jerry. It's not just the killers where we're living a moral life is this Sisyphean task, even in a loving marriage like Marge and Norm's. It's a Sisyphean task because you got to get up every day. You've got to, here's the imagery. You've got to go scrape the ice off the windshield yet again, the perfect moment in this movie of Jerry failing to do that.

29:08Josh Larsen:His, his Sisyphean boulder is the ice on the windshield. It's going to come back. You're going to have to push that rock up again. You're going to have to scrape that windshield again. The prowler is always going to need a jump. This is just living a life of contentment, which is so hard for us to do. And this was the first time I realized it's hard for Marge as well, which just made her, of course, so much deeper of a character.

29:35Adam Kempenaar:This is going to be very hard because in order to get into margin norm and to get into the Mike Yanagita scene, which as far as I can tell, Josh, people still either wildly. I won't even say they wildly misunderstand because anytime I hear anybody talk about it, they just kind of throw in the towel. And I actually don't think it's that complicated. I think it's complex, but I think there's lots of ways to come at it. And I think there's lots of conclusions we can draw from it as you already have. Yeah. I want to discuss both of the things that you just dug into, but in order to get there, I have to explain what my unlock was.

30:13Adam Kempenaar:And that may take a little while. So I'm trying to best figure this out. I will note very quickly that you do love True Grit, and I've always known that about you. And True Grit is the movie I most need to have that second watch experience with. And I'm praying. I'm expecting, but I'm praying. I liked it. I liked it quite a bit. But I'm praying that the unlock will happen that that is just hard to get sometimes in the theater with any movie, but especially with a real quick, real quick. I find it perhaps they're most optimistic, which may be why why I have there. Yeah. So let me try to explain how I get to where you're at.

30:54Adam Kempenaar:But but my path and I think I think people, at least based on what I've heard over the years, may underestimate the significance of the opening text. That this is a true story, the events depicted, that whole thing. You know, everybody sort of goes, oh, those Tricky Cone brothers, aren't they funny, playing with our expectations and keeping us on our toes. And my take this time is Fargo remains gripping decades later, not just for its craft and darkly comic story, but for the way it turns myth-making, storytelling, and deception into its central preoccupation. That's what myths are. Myths are fundamentally just storytelling and deception.

31:48Adam Kempenaar:We've got fundamentally a movie about people who lie that opens with one, right? It's not based on a true story. The filmmakers tell us a lie right off the jump. And even the name, even the name of the movie's a bit of misdirection. Since it almost exclusively takes place in Minnesota, it is about Minnesotans, but it's called Fargo. And even the name, and if this is too simple, I don't really care, but even the name Fargo is symbolic of the nature of lying. And what we see happen in this movie with violence and this scheme too, once you start, how far does it go? Once you start, you can't stop.

32:35Adam Kempenaar:The lies just continue to compound, right? Jerry can't stop the kidnapping from happening once he sets it all in motion in Fargo. and what i love about the opening exchange and this is something about the movie overall josh that i just think is brilliant about it not that it should be a surprise with the cone brothers film what is it 98 minutes i truly don't think that there is a scene that's wasted at all in terms of i don't think story story plot plus character in that opening exchange with carl and and grooms rude, or maybe we should just call him Buscemi and storm air. They don't just accept the deal, right?

33:21Adam Kempenaar:They ask him a bunch of questions. They want to understand the story. They want to understand why he's asking them to do this. What kind of trouble you in Jerry? Well, that's, that's, I'm not going to get into, into, see, I just need the money. Now her dad, he's real well off. So why don't you just ask him for the money? Or your f***ing wife, you know. Or your f***ing wife, Jerry. Well, one of their great screenwriting strokes is that they, for the entire movie, withhold the reason why Jerry needs the money. He withholds it from them, which means they also withhold it from us. We're in the same position the hired thugs are the entire movie, right?

34:05Adam Kempenaar:That we have no idea. And Buscemi, and we don't need to know. It doesn't matter. We just know he needs the money desperately. And so when Buscemi says this, he goes right at the end of that scene at the bar, he goes, OK, Jerry, you're tasking us to perform this mission, but you won't. You won't. Basically, he's saying you won't give us the details. You won't tell us why. And then he goes, oh, let's take a look at that Sierra. We as an audience could be saying that to the Coen brothers. You're tasking us to perform our duties as audience members to buy into all this, to get invested in this and go on this journey.

34:43Adam Kempenaar:But you're not going to tell us why he needs the money. Oh, you know what? Eff it. Let's just get the plot in motion. And and I love that. But even if you think about it, Josh, why is the movie set in Brainerd? because it's a fun word to say, because they wanted the silliest sounding small Minnesota town. I bet there are others that could compete with that. It's because it claims Paul Bunyan and Babe the Blue Ox, which everybody says when Brainerd is mentioned. Paul Bunyan's not real. Babe the Blue Ox isn't real. They're characters out of folktales. They're part of the mythic Great White North.

35:24Adam Kempenaar:They're part of this story. we tell ourselves to define ourselves, right? And almost every single scene, this is where Yana Gita comes in, certainly, right? Almost every single scene, and I'll hold off on getting into my proof here because I want to get to the heart of the matter. Almost every single scene involves storytelling and truth or deception in this film. There are so many of them. So how does this fit in with what you were saying. I think what we see in this movie ultimately are the Cone brothers playing with and subverting myths surrounding American life and the American family. And maybe one of the key ideas, certainly that we're sold, is that happiness is possible.

36:17Adam Kempenaar:And not only that happiness is possible, but that it's that it's required that that it's that it's it's an expectation of American life. And so in this movie, we get here's the thing. I think we get three distinct visions, at least three distinct visions of domestic life. there's the one jerry pretends to be living and that his wife firmly believes that she is living okay then there's margin norm and i am gonna i want to discuss the ending a bit more and and but i'll just say overall i'm with you that i have always read it as very loving black and white very clear that everything's perfect. I'm still very close to that.

37:09Adam Kempenaar:I love the fact that it's a happy marriage. Clearly, they depend on each other. The way he insists on making her breakfast because his pregnant wife needs to eat, needs nourishment, no matter how early it is. Fix her some eggs. Then, of course, he's there to help give the prowler a jump. I love I read it this way. I love that when When they meet, no matter what's happening on the job, I like that he doesn't ask her a bunch of questions. I think it reflects the fact that he just trusts that his wife knows what she's doing. He doesn't need to get into her business. He doesn't need to offer her any tips or suggestions.

37:50Adam Kempenaar:He's letting her do what she does. And I do think, even though I want to unpack it more in a minute, I do think that that last line, heck, Norm, we're doing pretty good here, is genuinely moving. At least it was this time. I didn't give it much thought in the theater in 96 this time genuinely moving. But here's my big point. Aren't the two criminals just sort of replicating domestic life, but a completely deranged version of domestic life. They've got a house. They're staying at a house with a wife. He's even eating a TV dinner when we find him. He's eating TV dinners. And the thing is, they're miserable out there.

38:34Adam Kempenaar:They could just be making choices. We're talking about making choices for happiness. They could just be choosing another path and living that domestic life for real rather than replicating it as part of this crime. crime and they could have a functioning TV where they could actually get reception and watch whatever they wanted. And in some ways, it's even a dream alternate reality to suburban family dreams, because who doesn't dream about having having a second house on out on the lake? Right. But it's a terrible experience where terrible things are happening inside that house. And it even just occurred to me here at the last minute that that that comedic duo of Stormare and Buscemi is so perfect and it fits a very conventional comedic mode, right?

39:25Adam Kempenaar:To have opposites, the small guy and the big guy, the guy who talks too much, the guy who doesn't talk at all. But if you put it into this scheme that I'm talking about, they almost feel to me like the split personality of the quote unquote conventional American husband. One's at home, he's gruff, he's silent he's completely emotionless he's just he's just there eating his dinner unhappy ignoring his wife and what's the other doing he's doing what other husbands do he's going crazy out there on the lake as we hear about him and he's stepping out for for tris with a prostitute it's like there's a perfect schism there and and watching how josh in in 1996 this would have been true to some extent it would have been truer in 87 when this movie is set something about how we consistently see at the end and earlier scenes the glow of the tv all these different characters in their different settings watching like the tonight show with johnny carson that same glow no matter their situations no matter how messed up they are all these characters are just ending up in the same places they've all just made radically different choices to get there and all are experiencing different levels of happiness, to your point.

40:46Yeah.

40:47Josh Larsen:And I think I love the idea of them as this bickering couple. They're definitely, to take a historical look at this, this was the era of the loquacious criminal couples, wasn't it? Or at least just criminals, because we've got, this is 1996, following usual suspects in 95. And then, of course, we get what? Pulp Fiction in 94. Maybe the definitive, the trendsetter for this. I think about Buscemi and Stormare when they're arguing about stopping for pancakes or steak. You know, Pulp Fiction's Royale with cheese comes to mind there. Also, to your description of their first meeting with Jerry in the bar, I love, in addition to the things you talked about, that they try to talk him out of the plan because it's so dumb.

41:31Josh Larsen:It's like all these guys have is like money to make, but they're so perplexed by his choices. They try to talk him out of it. The story doesn't make sense.

41:42Adam Kempenaar:It doesn't check out. That's what I love.

41:44Josh Larsen:A great screenwriting touch there. Yeah. So the only other thing I'd add about Marge and Norm, and it sounds like we are in the same place. I just want to reemphasize, again, to place her mindset and decision making and sort of moral awakening here in context. text i read their lunches i read them this time the same way you did he doesn't get into her business at first it was like so caring but also yes but if he's doing this every day it's almost become more routine it's a nice routine it's a caring routine i think every time we see them together unless they're in bed they're eating they go to the buffet restaurant and you get this sense that maybe this is like what they do every Thursday night, you know, and the camera pans over the options, which don't look great, but it's what they've got.

42:37Josh Larsen:It's what it does the job, right? There's a reading of this where marriage is doing the job for Marge and Norm. And should there be more, right? That's the question. Should I have more? That's the question for Marge in this very minor domestic scenario. It's the question for Jerry in his life scenario. And it's the question for Buscemi and Stormare in their criminal scenario. You know, how can I get more because I deserve more? And I think Jerry is interesting in this regard. Another thing that nuanced a bit for me was, again, I saw him as the everyman, the one we can relate to. We probably don't run scams like the VIN number scam he would want to do.

43:21Josh Larsen:But, you know, we make our own moral choices here and there and fudge things and maybe it could snowball out of control. So we can recognize Jerry. Here, though, I saw him as even more devious than that. And sort of like one of the original sinners of this movie. If Marge is presented with, if life has presented her, brought her to a point where she is being challenged with a question of right or wrong, Jerry, I thought, was maybe born looking for the wrong choice. It's the true coat gag, the customer who yells at him, you're a bald-faced liar, telling us that Jerry does this even in his supposed legit business.

44:04Josh Larsen:was Jerry's original sin possibly marrying Jan for her family's money. I was thinking about it, watching this, where originally I thought he's just a guy who, you know, has a bore of a father-in-law who's holding it over him because he wasn't as successful. Then I'm reading Jerry and everything he does is for his own gain. And I'm thinking maybe this guy was like, asked Jan out on a date in high school because her dad was rich. And now he's just perpetuating that further into his life. I just think Macy, you know, Jerry was, I think my number five Cohen character when we did that list. And the performance here is incredible.

44:43Josh Larsen:Incredible. In its own nuance. His face looks like he has a continuous case of diarrhea, yet he manages to project so much more going on beneath that. And I love the touch when Marge knows Jerry's line. When? In one of their interviews. When the Midwestern politeness drops, everyone else throughout this movie, not the criminals, everyone else is polite, no matter what the situation. But when Jerry says, ma 'am, I answered your question. Ma 'am, I answered your question.

45:15Adam Kempenaar:I'm sorry, sir. Ma 'am, I answered your question. I answered the darn, I'm cooperating here. And there, there's no.

45:23Josh Larsen:The light changes in her eyes because she's like, he would only say it that way if he was lying.

45:37Josh Larsen:So, yeah, I think it does relate to this general idea of what do we when we can't cultivate contentment? What choices are we going to make then that'll be destructive for ourselves and for others? It relates to the line you pulled out at the end. And if Marge doesn't fully believe that yet, she's recognizing that contentment might be possible here with Norm. It's going to be work. You know, the ice scraper will have to come out again. But I think she's recognizing this is the choice that she's content to make to go in that direction.

46:12Adam Kempenaar:A couple titles I wanted to highlight this week, Josh, as I was looking at the Regal Cinemas website, regmovies.com. Plus, there's a link in our show notes that I hope people are clicking on. They have two limited engagements of note, and these may be playing at different times, wherever you are located. So just visit the website, check it out. But they're showing American Psycho, and they're also showing My Neighbor Totoro. You never go wrong seeing Miyazaki on the big screen, which I've never seen any of these older movies on the big screen. And then American Psycho, the Mary Herron movie is a film I desperately need to revisit.

46:54Adam Kempenaar:But in addition to those limited engagements, you can, of course, see the movie that is expanding to more screens, the movie that you're highly recommending, the movie that seems very likely to be on a lot of mid-year best of lists and quite possibly some end of year lists. It is The Invite, Olivia Wilde's new film. With Regal Unlimited, that's a movie I can see for free. Regal Unlimited is the all-you-can-watch movie subscription pass that pays for itself in just two visits. Regal is offering our listeners endless movies for less, because all you have to do is sign up with the code FILMSPOT26 to get 15 % off.

47:35Adam Kempenaar:You can see any standard 2D movie, and last I checked, there isn't a 3D version of The Invite, Josh.

47:41Josh Larsen:Not that I'm aware of. Okay.

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48:06Adam Kempenaar:i want to get a little bit more into macy and how i saw the character this time which is very similar if not exactly how you're reading it but to get back a little bit to marge and and yana gita specifically that scene i i don't i guess understand as i mentioned earlier how people are coming up so blank on this scene. I was trying to think back. You know what I think it is?

48:32Josh Larsen:I'll just say real quick. I think it's the length of it. I think it was like, and I don't think it's too long. I'm not saying that. I just think if it had been a blip, like almost the conversation between the one trooper who goes talk to the neighbor who overheard Buscemi say something, that's like a minute and a half scene. I think then people would have been fine. But that Yanagita gets a significant chunk is what really perplexes people. Well, I think tied to that, Josh,

48:57Adam Kempenaar:I think it's genuinely, this may sound like more than I mean it to, but I think it's genuinely a disturbing scene too. I think it's a hard watch. I think the emotional terrain that he covers in that scene makes us uncomfortable. And I think that's where the humor even comes from. I was trying to think back. I don't remember exactly the experience I had in the theater in 1996. But if you asked me what my recollection was, I would tell you that I think I remember people laughing and that I might have even laughed myself because Mike is so desperate and he seems so lost. And the way he is, he is trying to cling to Marge, even though he seems so sad, he's so pathetic that you kind of can't help but laugh.

49:49Adam Kempenaar:But I think it's more that that uncomfortable laughter rather than really laughing at him. And this time I, I didn't feel that type of discomfort. I, I just felt real sadness for this character. Now that might be because I know the truth of his, of his situation, but in terms of how that scene functions in the movie, his, his lying seems to trigger her right the next day. as she's driving out of town, that seems to be the trigger for her thinking, this goes back to my idea of storytelling and deception. Something doesn't check out with the story I was getting from Shep and Jerry. I'm going to go back.

50:32Adam Kempenaar:I think that was part of it, that just the night before she heard this in the phone call that morning where it's revealed, right, that that's she just finds out that morning before she got in the car that she's been lied to. Obviously, I also think to my entire point about the myth making element, he has concocted an entire narrative around his life to earn her sympathy. That's absolutely essential. But then he has, as part of that narrative, he has revealed that all he is seeking in life, all he is clinging to is the hope that maybe someday he'll have a relationship like Marge and Norm have. That's another vision of domestic life.

51:21Adam Kempenaar:It's the absence. It's the absence of having someone in your life that can be that other to you like Norm is for Marge. The thing that is very interesting is seeing it this time, as you did, where she puts on that outfit and she kind of adjusts herself and you go, is she is she getting herself ready because she wants to impress Mike? Is that entering her mind at all? I always read it as it's the first time it's the first time we've seen her outside of her work clothes. It's the first time we've seen her in civilian clothes. And so when she's kind of pulling at her clothes, it's like she almost doesn't know what to do with herself.

52:08Adam Kempenaar:She's in civilian clothes and it feels it feels awkward. And do we really think that she hasn't seen this guy in 100 years and she all of a sudden is having some fantasy about him? Like she's thinking about another life with another guy that isn't Norm. That seems a little bit hard to swallow. But maybe it does just open enough of a door, just enough of a portal in her mind that what happens is when you watch then that last scene, that last line, when she says, hey, we're doing pretty good here, you can realize that two things can be true at once. That she absolutely means it. That it is true.

53:02Adam Kempenaar:It's with full conviction that she loves Norm with all her heart and he loves her and they can't wait for their baby to come and they're going to be extraordinarily happy for the rest of their lives together. but it is prompted she's provoked in a way to say it because it is a bit of an affirmation she feels like she needs to say it that she needs to affirm if if you're if you're fully content and you know it you don't need to necessarily reinforce it you just exist in the moment the fact that she needs to tell norm that everything's great right suggests that she needs to hear it

53:43Josh Larsen:for herself and but i also think a fallacy that the movie is exposing is that in a world that the cohen's usually see as messed up if not outright evil that's what we see in their movies um maybe happiness isn't possible maybe it's just not possible but but something like contentment is yeah i don't know that's kind of that's kind of that's too cynical for me yeah well that's too dark of a read for me i think it's i don't know that they're always going to have this perfectly i mean you know happy domestic as much as any happy marriage is still going to have moments

54:21Adam Kempenaar:i guess that's josh yes but the the other thing i did i did just want to add going back to my my notion of of of myth making here and storytelling is what stands out to me too about that scene is what precedes it. Okay? Because he has entered his painting into that contest, and he wants to win. And throughout, as I said, throughout this entire movie, people have been stretching the truth, outright lying, doing whatever they have to do to get what they want, and only causing further damage. And in this scene, he's upset because he didn't win. He says the Houtman's blue wing teal got the 29 cent and people don't much use the three cent, which is what he got.

55:19Adam Kempenaar:and there's something that i'm still fully unpacking josh but when i was thinking about the way i read the film i love the fact that she says to him oh for pete's sake of course they do whenever they raise the postage people need the little stamps and he says yeah she says when they're stuck with a bunch of the old ones and he goes yeah i guess like she tells him she tells him a little story, the story he needs to hear. And how how true is it? Maybe it's fully true, Josh. Maybe it's fully true because, yes, they do. When they do raise the stamps, you do need the old ones. That is a reality of American postal life.

56:02Adam Kempenaar:But it's still something a wife is telling her husband to make him feel better. So there's something about the fact that that you're that the movie in that final moment is is encapsulating the truth and and a story that he needs to hear but there's also some symbolism in it where it's like times change the the stamp this this steady thing times change but you know what we'll just digest and we'll move on and we've got each other and we'll be fine people don't much use the three

56:37Josh Larsen:Oh, for peace. Of course they do. Yeah. Whenever they raise the postage, people need the little stamps. Yeah. When they're stuck with a bunch of the old ones. Yeah. I guess. It's terrific. I'm so proud of you, Norm. Yeah, I think it works for that reading, absolutely. I think it's a nice gesture of the goodness they do have in their marriage. Neither of us is suggesting that this was a false marriage that they had. That Barge's response in that way shows how much they do care for each other. And in my reading, it absolutely is a symbol of contentment. You're not always going to get the 29 cent stamp.

57:19Josh Larsen:You know what? Maybe you can be happy with a three cent stamp. And she helps him find out that he can be happy with that. Okay, last thing on Mike Yanagita, because I just realized with this viewing, Adam, we've seen Stephen Park give an incredible performance. not that long ago in Wes Anderson's, the French dispatch. He was, he was an Escafier, Lieutenant Escafier, the, the chef for the police commissar. So how about that? Because I just think we also need to give credit as, as I think we've been hinted at to park in the tight rope. He's walking in this scene where, um, he can't make the guy a joke.

58:00Josh Larsen:I agree with you. He registers emotionally, incredibly strongly, even as he's very silly and awkward and awkward. off-putting at the same time. I mean, this is a tightrope act. And to just come into the movie for one scene like this, and perhaps it sounds like deliver the definitive scene. Yeah. What a performance there by Stephen Park. Do we need to say more about McDormand or do we go to Deakins here?

58:29Adam Kempenaar:Yeah. I want to talk about McDormand and Deakins, but I do want to say something about Macy, if I can, even though I'm going to echo a lot of what you said. I do think it's a stunning performance. The desperation that he conveys and specifically in the meeting with Stan and Wade, with the father-in-law and his guy Stan. In that meeting, when it when it turns, when he realizes the moment where he realizes it's not it's not going to go, that it looks so promising and then it flips and he realizes it's not going to work out. The way Macy silently conveys that that this is sunk and he knows he is screwed is is so powerful.

59:17Adam Kempenaar:And and I say powerful because I will get into this more in just a second. I do think it for as much of a weasel and terrible person that he clearly is who sets all of these terrible things in motion. I do think he is remarkably human and that comes through in his character. But performance wise to the way what it is real quick there in that moment you're talking about.

59:41Josh Larsen:You know what it is? He's doing two things. He's conveying the desperation that the his scheme is falling apart. simultaneously the other side of this this was the way for him to get respect from his father-in-law as a man who can make actual money that's it josh and macy hits both of those notes without

59:59Adam Kempenaar:saying a thing that that's exactly it the the tiny voice crack this gets right at that and i'm going to talk about this with deacons too and in one of one of the choices with the production design and the way they shoot it you said maybe he always wanted maybe his original sin was was something back. He dated her and married her just for his money. Or maybe this was a building in his mind of insecurity over time. Maybe he's felt that he's never gotten the respect he deserved from life, including his father-in-law. And when he says to Marge, well, I should know, I'm the executive sales manager.

1:00:43Adam Kempenaar:And he has to he has to say his title, his full title and the way his voice just subtly cracks on executive could not be could not be more more perfect. And. I also want to go back and note that that that true coat exchange is one of the more memorable sequences in the entire film. And that that too. This is his flaw and what makes him human, but also a character on the level. And this is the the playground that the Coens play in on the level of a Greek character or a Shakespearean character. His fundamental tragic flaw is that he is perhaps in seeking this respect. Part of it is that he is, I believe, incapable of being honest.

1:01:33Adam Kempenaar:I believe that he is fundamentally incapable of telling the truth he can't stop himself it doesn't matter what that guy says it's not about the money what's he going to get out of that true coat another$400 he does not care about the money and he even and I think Macy captures this and the cones capture this he does care about the guy calling him a bald-faced liar to his face we get the close-up you can tell that it does hurt him it wounds him that he's called a liar to his face but not enough that it stops him from doing it he'll do it every single time because it's in his nature to do it and he can't stop himself from doing it but the way you know that he's got that insecurity as well is when he says in that in that meeting scene you know well this will be a real good real good deal for gene and scotty I mean, he says, Gene and Scotty have nothing to worry about.

1:02:31Adam Kempenaar:Yeah. Yeah. Doesn't matter. It doesn't matter about dagger. He's completely inconsequential, but they will always. Yeah, they never have to worry is what he says. They they will always be taken care of. So, yeah, I think he's always I think he's always fighting for that. But to the human part, as I said, you see that he's wounded, but not enough to ever change. How about when when they say after the crime has happened? And I think Stan maybe says something about like how Scotty taking it. Oh, gosh, poor Scotty. He poor Scotty, who's such a little twit at the beginning. But you, you, of course, genuinely feel for him.

1:03:08Adam Kempenaar:At that moment, you see on on Macy's face, on Jerry's face that he, of course, hasn't thought for a second. Nope. How this is going to affect his son. And I think you see that he is thinking, oh, no, this is going to be really hard on him. He does care how this will affect Scotty, not enough to change anything that he's doing. He's even going to ask Scotty to lie on his behalf. Right. And he's going to continue every part of this deception because, again, it's in his nature and he can't stop himself. But he does. He does care. So the fact that the the Coen brothers make him that kind of character with that depth and the fact that Macy portrays all of that is is crucial to the success of this movie.

1:03:57Adam Kempenaar:And one Deacon's thing I'll say, and maybe this will transition into some of the filmmaking and we'll circle back around to the best actress, is there's a shot, Josh, in this film. I think it might be the second time Riley Diefenbach, GMAC, calls about the serial numbers. Yeah. And I think it's that because they they then cut to a wide shot looking at his office across the showroom like he's in profile standing at his desk and we see the the office from across the showroom. And the way that the production design is set up, the way it everything is is established with the framing. his office looks like he's in a cell yes it looks like he's already in jail but not only that we add to it it's like this daytime noir touch where all the beams in the showroom look like they've imprisoned him but not only that beams and the the shades the blinds in his office all are vertical and are additional bars that are holding him in but here's the thing i noticed this time that really stood out this guy here's how insecure jerry is this guy has more trophies in his office he does than tom brady does he i don't know what those were all for i don't know Trophy sponsored little league teams or what they are.

1:05:28Adam Kempenaar:I know what they are.

1:05:29Josh Larsen:You sell 10 true coats.

1:05:32Adam Kempenaar:You get a trophy. There you go. Maybe that's it. Maybe all he wants is the trophies, Josh. He has, he, they, they go across one wall and then over the other. And, and the way Deakins and, and the Coen brothers frame this is that in his door, there's a reflection that shows more bars and trophies. So it just amplifies it even more the way he's already a prisoner and the fact that he's just inundated. His office is overrun with trophies. It's incredible.

1:06:06Josh Larsen:It's so good. And I broke that exact thing down when I did that TC Movie Club thing a couple of years ago. I made a video essay for it and, yeah, pulled that out to emphasize it. Maybe I'll link to that in the show notes. It was fun to look at that again. Deacon's brilliant here. And the thing I think of first, it's the thing I think of first with Fargo is this whiteout visual milieu, which they employ. I love the Midwestern setting just so that it is a quintessential American film and giving us something that's not, you know, New York or L.A. crime movie. But it's also so effectively used as mood and thematic visual support.

1:06:50Josh Larsen:and what they're capturing here is that moment. And we know this because of where we live. When it's been snowing for a while and it's starting to warm up just a little bit, the sky is not clear. And so the snow is evaporating slightly, but it has nowhere to go. And you just feel like you're encased in gray, right? It's all of one. Let's go back to our back rooms. exit eight conversation. It's a liminal space. We're in here. And again, if I'm seeing this movie as mostly a meditation on how to navigate a moral universe, when everything is murky, could there be a better setting? It's the first thing we see of Jerry's car emerging from this, where Marge has arrested Stormare and she pulls over and waits amidst this white out so that for the other police cars to arrive, we get variations of it even at night.

1:07:53Josh Larsen:Think about that scene where Stormare is chasing the people who witnessed them shoot the trooper. And we have that car ahead disappear into the darkness. So much imagery here of not quite being able to see what we want to see or get our bearings for where we are. And that is practical, but it's also deeply existential for almost every one of these characters. And when we think of great cinematography, I think we think of dramatic lighting, lighting we notice, landscapes that are clear and overpowering, colors, just like wow stuff. And what Deakins is doing here is taking the most mundane, banal visual elements you could hand a cinematographer and creating deeply monumental, important, impactful meaning from it in visual terms.

1:08:51Josh Larsen:It's genius.

1:08:53Adam Kempenaar:Yeah. And just creating atmosphere that you feel you don't have to necessarily dissect it. You feel it. The opening is that everything about the opening of this film with that car emerging and you described it so well. But then you do also have to add in how effectively that's working in tandem throughout the entire movie with Carter Burwell's score. Oh gosh. All timer. All timer. This I'm going to use to support my overall point about this film too. That main theme he's using, it has that feel to it and you look up a little bit some of the details on it. He's taken a Norwegian folk melody. This is something people recognize.

1:09:36Adam Kempenaar:This is something people know. He's reappropriated it, right? This is a familiar tune and he's using it in in a new way. But the shot that I do think of and the camera isn't. You're right. It's not doing dramatic things. It doesn't have to. It is how it makes you feel. It's what it evokes. When you watch that aerial shot. After that meeting, how it goes terribly wrong and you know that he has no chance of getting this money, that aerial shot of him walking to his car. and the his car's the only one in the parking lot but you have sort of those planters in the lights the emptiness of that yeah isolation the bleakness and then yes the indignity of the windshield scrape on top of it i it must not it must not be that clever of a thing to say because you said it and i had it in my notes too it is the midwesterner's version of sisyphus's boulder that is what it is And he just he just gives in and lets the boulder roll over him.

1:10:40Adam Kempenaar:Right. Totally. He just loses it.

1:10:47Adam Kempenaar:He just can't take it anymore. But but the way the county roads are shot, the endlessness to it, the endlessness of the fence when when Buscemi plants the scraper. like we know without knowing anything else that's going to happen that nobody is ever going to find that money until it thaws of course but but nobody else is ever coming back to find where i kind of

1:11:11Josh Larsen:hope scotty gets it i don't know i don't know how but can scotty just come across it you hope but i

1:11:16Adam Kempenaar:even noticed this josh when that that here again it's an expansive wide shot and it's just how it how deacons uses the environment uses that white that white space when marge has just shot storm air grim's rude and she we we see her make that long walk as he's laying down and as she goes out the way is this the poster to the the way the way the trees the way the trees on the land are bent it it couldn't be more perfect it's as if the trees even are are bent towards him like they're like they're incriminating him somehow there's something about it that just feels so right in that moment and and ominous in a way just an extra little bit of that that tension that you need and

1:12:11Josh Larsen:to your point about the tactile nature of all this you know her the crunching in the snow when she's walking out there when any characters really are walking outside. They're very attuned to putting that noise on the soundtrack. There is so much foggy breath in the air. We feel the heavy burden of these sweaters and the parkas and the gloves and the hats. And it all, again, is not just cultural context even. It's also thematic context. I did not know that about the Burwell score, but that makes perfect sense because I think of it as having quaint elements. I would say, then builds to this momentous, which speaks to your point about the myth making this momentous, almost, you know, biblical sense when it really starts to swell.

1:12:59Josh Larsen:So, yeah, I think this is absolutely all time work from Carter Burwell as well. And it does work really well in concert with the cinematography. They are of a piece.

1:13:09Adam Kempenaar:Mm hmm. So Marge, we've been talking a while, but we do need to talk about the best actress winner, Marge Gunderson here a little bit. What what stands out about her performance to you? One thing that stood out to me this time is realizing that in a 98 minute movie, the best actress winner doesn't show up until 30 minutes into the film. I know.

1:13:30Josh Larsen:Crazy, right?

1:13:30Adam Kempenaar:It's amazing.

1:13:31Josh Larsen:Yeah. You know, I didn't, it was more of a character realization, as I talked about at length here, about Marge's wrestling with contentment. But in terms of the performance, I would just say, and honestly, I look at, I don't know why we did this, our Coen characters list. And I had a group of canon characters at the top that I didn't allow for my top five, which meant Marge didn't make my top five, which is absolutely asinine. So I don't know what I was thinking with all of that. That's probably how I felt then. Too many characters to consider. I don't know what I was doing. Anyway, the performance itself, I think, is on an even more nuanced level than what Stephen Park is doing with Mike Yanagita, but asked essentially to do the same thing, is to be funny and moving and carry the existential weight of the movie.

1:14:23Josh Larsen:And I think McDormand manages all those things. she makes Marge Marges whip smart she has her own sense of humor that's not outside you know you could argue and maybe one of the nitpicks with this goes back to the loquacious criminals is that Stormare and Buscemi as entertaining as they are are very much movie types right they're funny the way people are funny in the movies Marge is both funny for the movie and a funny person and I think that it takes skill for McDormand to be able to do both of those things At the same time, she's completely believable. She's part police chief, part your favorite primary school teacher.

1:15:03Josh Larsen:You know, she's like the school teacher who doesn't want to yell at the kids, but if she has to, she will, and she'll do it firmly. And, you know, she doesn't, basically she's always seems disappointed, but not reluctant to arrest a wrongdoer. and I think it's because she sees the good in people or wants to I think it relates to what I've been talking about I think she sees and thinks of herself as good essentially at the bottom of it good and is deeply distressed when she realizes that she might struggle with things too and you are asking her to also do all of this in that last it's not even a conversation the monologue to Stormare in the back of her prowler just musing there's one thing, Adam, when you ask a character to deliver the thematic heft of a film and the character is doing that.

1:15:55Josh Larsen:In other words, that's in the realm of the story, the character is giving the lesson. In that scene, we're getting the thematic heft of the film, I feel, and Marge Gunderson is realizing it herself in the moment as she's talking. And that's the level of performance we're getting there is that this growing self-awareness that is opening up to the character the same time it's opening to the audience there's more to life than a little money you know don't you know that

1:16:42and here you are and it's a beautiful day

1:16:48Adam Kempenaar:the best performances always feel like they're not overly calculated they feel like real life they feel like characters are discovering themselves and their emotions or whatever their epiphanies are in the moment. And that is how this character feels throughout, not only with important ideas, but also just moment to moment with the humor. We now, or in the wake of this movie, we can call on certain lines or it becomes sort of an SNL type punchline with the accent and certain things that she says. But when you watch it, when you actually watch her say things like, That's your accomplice in The Woodchipper.

1:17:36Adam Kempenaar:She's not, McDormand's not overdoing anything in this film. She is downplaying everything and playing this character completely straight. And to your point about her seeing the good and everything, you could actually argue she's not that great of a cop because Shep is totally suspect and Jerry is very suspect based on their behavior. And what does she do? She takes them at their words. She's about ready to head home without further investigation. But that's that's also something I like about the character is people describe Marge. And I also, in fairness, I mean, McDormand's wonderful. There's there's just no questioning that.

1:18:19Adam Kempenaar:But a lot of times, if we're being honest with ourselves, when we're talking about how much we love a performance, a lot of times we are talking about the nuance of the character and the dimensions to that character and what that performer brings out. And with this character, nothing the sheriff, nothing Marge Gunderson does feels extraordinary. And that's so appropriate for this film. Yes. Because in so many ways, not only is it the Midwest and whatever, but in so many ways, this film is puncturing this notion of traditional crime thrillers with many things that it's doing. and in that regard this sheriff is not one of those detectives or one of those lawyers where they have some extraordinary talent or always come up with some magical insight at the last minute what does she do she's just doing very solid fundamental police work that's how she solves this case she's just following leads just better than lou yeah and and and the thing is that But even Lou and the other cops, even though maybe we maybe we want to be a little condescending or someone could be because of their accents watching it.

1:19:36Adam Kempenaar:Guess what? They're fine cops. They they do their job, too. They do their job. Well, the only thing that she is smarter than Lou about is that she deciphers what DLR means. Otherwise, they all do their jobs. There's nothing there's nothing actually silly or dumb about any of those characters. There's no there's no Barney Fife's here. And so I love the fact that she she's just she's just a good cop. She's a good sheriff is what is what she is. And the the discovery to her character, I think, is is really apt. There's just no there's no glibness and there's no attempt to play Marge as a funny character.

1:20:14Adam Kempenaar:And that's so important.

1:20:16Josh Larsen:Which brings us, you know, back to, I think it sounds like from that conversation, Amy Nicholson did observe and was right about is like there is this, there's not only this interdecency to Marge, but there's a appreciation of it and a yearning for it in others to Marge, which does stand outside of the Cohen canon. I think absolutely.

1:20:37Adam Kempenaar:just finally going back to macy real quick and myth-making or storytelling and deception his best scene his best moment might actually be when he has to perform and we start off camera hearing him rehearsing what he's going to say after he finds out that gene is gone yeah and and then of course what happens when he actually gets on the line with the real receptionist or whatever he can't he can't perform he just wade gustafson plea or whatever he says you know he just he just goes into normal mode but he's he's rehearsing it because he knows at this point he's he's supposed to do something he's supposed to pretend he's supposed to put on a certain behavior but i i said that the movie punctures our expectations in that way this is the brilliance again i'll use that word of the cone brothers moments like buscemi walking up to the glass and rather than it feeling like a thrilling moment from a crime movie the break-in she she does what i think a lot of us actually would do in that moment is we'd sit there and go what the hell is happening we wouldn't know how to immediately react and she doesn't really react until it it gets crazy when he when he breaks the glass in and the violence josh of of the dark humor the way and only the coen brothers do it on this level that balancing of dark humor where when she comes out of the shower like a chicken with its head cut off with a shower curtain and falls down the stairs there's a part of you inevitably that wants to or can't help but laugh because there's something inherently funny about a character running around like that even though it's terrifying and then what happens later it's it's mirrored when she gets out with the bag over her head at the house at the lake and she starts running around again crazy except now there's nothing funny about it now we know what it's scary now we know what those characters are capable of now we know that she's in real danger and it's it's it's a heightened experience

1:22:47Josh Larsen:from a terror standpoint real quick and maybe listeners can help with this it's something i I noticed regarding that break in sequence when she's watching that morning TV host or TV show, the host says they're talking about a cruise event that they want a contest. They want people to enter. And I think the host ends, signs off with like, that's the truth, Ruth. And I'm thinking to myself, I think I've only heard that and do the right thing. And so I did a quick search if that's a phrase that predates do the right thing. And I didn't find anything. Spike didn't make that phrase up. There must be something.

1:23:28Josh Larsen:It was just like so bizarre that that shows up in this like white bread morning TV host. Now that's the part that's a throwaway sequence in Fargo. I was like, what is going on here? If anyone knows the backstory, let us know. But I think we've talked so much about Fargo. That's where we've ended up on that little tidbit.

1:23:47Adam Kempenaar:But Fargo currently streaming on Netflix and Tubi and is available VOD.

1:24:17Adam Kempenaar:contact your trusted travel advisor. The applications where your story starts.

1:24:47Josh Larsen:oil change that starts with Valvoline.

1:24:51Adam Kempenaar:Valvoline Instant Oil Change. Change wisely.

1:24:57Josh Larsen:Zach, nice vacation spot, but without T-Mobile 5G home internet, I feel so cut off. It's scary.

1:25:04Adam Kempenaar:Relax. Just breathe in the woodsy woodsy-ness. Zach! Don't open it. It's a monster. I just know it.

1:25:13Josh Larsen:Buddy, it's just our DoorDash driver delivering our T-Mobile 5G home internet.

1:25:18Adam Kempenaar:Here you go, guys. Thanks. Look, Donald, now you can get the fastest 5G home internet with same-day delivery powered by DoorDash. And it's easy to set up. See? Nothing to be afraid of.

1:25:28Josh Larsen:We're saved! It's scary how easy it is. Get T-Mobile 5G home internet delivered the same day. Powered by DoorDash. Just$35 a month with auto pay and a voice line. Plus taxes and fees. Same day delivery for most Internet eligible customers. See if it's an option during checkout. Fastest according to UCLA Speed Test based on speed test intelligence data. Second half 2025. All rights reserved. And now another appliance triumph from our friends at Grand Appliance. I love hosting summer parties, but dread reaching over a hot oven door to juggle appetizer trays. So I asked the experts at Grand Appliance for advice, and they recommended a Bosch wall oven with side swing doors for easier access.

1:26:13Josh Larsen:It's amazing. No reaching over the heat, and they installed it in no time.

1:26:18Adam Kempenaar:Host like a pro with expert advice from Grand Appliance. Shop grandappliance.com. Let's take a minute to thank family members, Joseph Carr in Barnett, North London, and Michael Soderbergh in Tucson, Arizona.

1:26:35Josh Larsen:Thanks to them both. They wrote in with a few notes for us. Joseph told us this membership has been a long time coming, okay? The first email I sent to you guys was in 2010, film spotting number 307, which was a Matty Ballgame Plus guest Steve Procopi episode about musical moments. So it's been at least 15 years. As for Michael, he said, I don't remember how I found you, but I'm a fairly new listener. I think one of the earliest episodes was Hobbs and Shaw in 2019. I remember really enjoying the mix of both high and low art in your selections. Let me make clear, Adam, that is Fast and Furious Presents Hobbs and Shaw.

1:27:16Josh Larsen:Yes, thank you.

1:27:18Adam Kempenaar:Good movie. I don't think I agreed with you quite as much on that episode, but tie back to Fargo high and low, a kidnapping movie. That's one of the Coen brothers favorites appropriate to our Fargo conversation. I love that Joseph got turned on to film spotting with an episode that neither of us were hosts on and he's still listening. That's a good sign. stuck around okay favorite show segments joseph says it's the marathons that i fell in love with there are so many that have opened my world lubich ray rassan offals that's satijit not nicholas offals iranian cinema all of which i'd probably never have come across except through film spotting but if there's one marathon that stands out to me in particular it's powell and pressburger whose films i've revisited many many times over the years including on the big screen Colonel Blimp for the win.

1:28:05Adam Kempenaar:Yes. Michael says, I always love the Oscars episodes with Michael Phillips and the seeming ambivalence with which everyone approaches the Academy Awards. This is perfect. Like, I don't care, but also I kind of do. Yeah, I think Michael nailed it, honestly. Nothing sums it up better. Like, I don't care, but I also kind of do.

1:28:26Josh Larsen:Yeah. That's it. You got it, Michael. Nicely done. We asked them both if there was a review we got wrong for Joseph. I don't generally get on with Christopher Nolan films with some notable exceptions, and I still cringe at the dialogue I recall from Interstellar. I probably need to revisit it to give it a second chance, but my recollection of the opening scenes of Interstellar is that the dialogue seems so functional, expository, and clunky that I just can't bring myself to spend my precious time to reconsider it. I think that puts me on team Josh. I guess so. Well, we're close, sir. I've warmed to Interstellar, but I do still have those concerns, Joseph.

1:29:02Josh Larsen:So sure. Welcome teammate.

1:29:04Adam Kempenaar:Well, I hope Joseph, I don't know for sure when he submitted this. It could have been a while ago. I hope Joseph has a chance to listen to the movie death match episode. We just published in our feed this week in honor of the Odyssey coming out. We've got pop culture scientists, Abigail James talking about interstellar, defending that against Bilga, Abiri and inception. very enlightening conversation who knows she might just change your opinion about Interstellar or at least give you some fodder to revisit the film so we thank you Joseph and Michael for being family members and for all of those years of listening to the show you can follow Joseph on Letterboxd he is Film Egg that's pretty self explanatory Michael is at Mix that's M-I-C-K-E-S there you go in addition to keeping us doing what we're doing Membership comes with perks like listening early and ad free, our weekly newsletter, get to be part of the film spotting family discord.

1:30:04Adam Kempenaar:You get monthly bonus shows like our recent discussion of David Robert Mitchell's. It follows and our July bonus. Since we do have coming up next week, our top five films of the year so far, we're going to riff on our favorite performances of the year so far. So we're going to check in. Got to get working through on those lists. And yeah, and then Josh, Film Spotting Madness, best of the 20s and 30s, an exclusive tournament with prizes, bracket challenge with prizes. We're going to give away. Oh, man, we had a couple things to give away. I'm blanking now. I know one of them is a signed Film Spotting Fest 2 poster.

1:30:45Josh Larsen:Very nice.

1:30:46Adam Kempenaar:Give that away. We are doing that exclusively for the Film Spotting family. That's going to start Monday the 13th. So if you want to participate in that, you just got to be a family member. You have time. Learn more at filmspottingfamily.com. Hi. Hi, come in. Nice to see you. We are so happy you're here. The Invite is Olivia Wilde's third film. As a director, she made Booksmart in 2019, followed that up with Don't Worry Darling in 2022. That was a film that was largely piled on by audiences and critics, including me. But you went for it so much so, in fact, that it made your top 10 list in 2022.

1:31:31Adam Kempenaar:You have seen The Invite, which also stars Wild, with Seth Rogen as her husband and Penelope Cruz and Edward Norton as their enigmatic neighbors. Is Wild for you. Batting three for three. Perfect 100. Perfect 1000. I should say.

1:31:50Josh Larsen:Absolutely. This was a delight. I don't know. It just felt, you know, comic chamber drama. It's not necessarily that inventive. I don't know the last time I saw one, a genre piece like this, that was just so fun to see, especially with a theater, with a crowd. And I also don't know, Adam, I'll have to think about this some more, but we've had directors who give lead or co-lead performances in the movies they're directing, how often is it that the best thing about that movie is the director's lead or co-lead performance? Because for me, that's what we get here. Wild is on screen, the standout of the invite for me.

1:32:35Josh Larsen:And that is while acknowledging that all four of the main characters, the main players in this cast are fantastic. They each do their own thing that makes this movie work as well as it does. I mean, to give them their credit, Rogan is, he's delivering the one-liners you'd expect, but also probably delivering the deepest well of sadness that this movie has. So he's doing great work. You look at Edward Norton, just delightful also as this kind of a Zen prankster. He has this calm, but he's disrupting things at the same time. And Cruz, it's interesting because I haven't seen every one of her English language performances and she's given some good ones, but this is, I think her best that I have seen.

1:33:22Josh Larsen:This is adapted from a Spanish language play that was turned into a movie. She wasn't involved in either of those. So I don't know if there's any, perhaps some cultural translation going on here that allowed her to deliver such a great performance here. But she's really sharp in terms of the repartee and also has this. She's a sly provocateur as well. Just a glance that Penelope Cruz gives in scenes here will throw the entire dynamic off in a chaotic way. So she's really good. But wild Adam is the gyrations on her face playing this woman who is deeply constricted, which we've seen that type. But also, again, it goes back to what you're talking about in Fargo, realizing over the course of this night what she's willing to entertain to bring something fresh and new to her life, to her marriage, to herself.

1:34:19Josh Larsen:and the way Wilde responds to things that her husband says or that her neighbors say, and then eventually to things that she says, and she starts surprising herself. It is just a phrase that kept coming to mind is one that you'll hear on like NBA podcasts. It's a quick twitch performance where just like the muscles are there doing immediately what she needs them to do for every moment in a movie that's incredibly fast and quick and quippy. And yeah, the invite is it's some of the most fun I've had in a theater, this kind of fun in quite a while. So people need to get out there and check this out.

1:34:58Adam Kempenaar:It expands to more cities this weekend. I will finally get a chance to see it this weekend. I hope I have as much fun as you. And who knows, maybe it will make my top five list next week when we share our favorite films of the year so far.

1:35:13Josh Larsen:I had a celebrity free pass thing with my fiance, but he took it literally. So now I need to have sex with Jon Hamm to even out the score and save my relationship. You did the D, now you gotta do the D. Yes.

1:35:23Adam Kempenaar:Gail needs to do the nasty with Mr. Jon Hamm ASAP.

1:35:29Josh Larsen:I am so, so sorry that we got you fired. Adam, we both caught up with director David Wayne's latest, Gail Daughtry and the Celebrity Sex Pass. That title, plus directed by David Wayne, should give you some idea of what's going on with this movie It stars Zoe Deutsch as Gail, a small-town woman whose fiancé takes their celebrity sex pass joke literally That puts her on a mission to even the playing field and have sex with a guy named Jon Hamm So she heads to L.A. with that in mind Adam, we've been talking about David Wayne on the show because Wet Hot American Summer His probably most beloved film was part of Film Spotting Fest 2 a couple of weekends ago.

1:36:13Josh Larsen:And we had David Wayne introduce that screening with a video he was kind enough to send in. He's been listening to the show for years now. You know, this always makes me nervous when I hear of anyone at any level of filmmaking.

1:36:27Adam Kempenaar:Yes.

1:36:28Josh Larsen:Who happens to listen to the show makes me feel like a fraud, especially so when it's an accomplished beloved filmmaker like David. Wayne. So, um, I don't, this isn't a review we're letting, I'm letting people know that a friend of the show has a new movie out. Uh, and what I can say is one of the things I talked about when we watched wet hot American summer and discussed it afterward is the absurdism that I think I didn't give enough credit for it to wet hot American summer when I first saw that come out. And I think the one absurd touch I want to highlight here, which isn't a spoiler at all.

1:37:05Josh Larsen:It's a minor character, Jon Hamm's bodyguard. I forget how he even gets into this story about going to a bullfight. And I forget if he's there with his wife or his girlfriend or something. Yeah. The bull leaps into the stands and impales her or it's this gory, horrible story that keeps going on. It has no reason to be in this movie whatsoever. Yeah. The chef's kiss. and I don't remember how they even got this, is an insert shot of a bull. It must be real footage. It looks like real footage leaping into the stands of a bullfight. It's like a second and a half. And then he just goes on with his story and the movie goes on with its plot.

1:37:45Josh Larsen:I mean, you get stuff like that in Gail Daughtry, which is how you know it is a David Wayne movie. And the question I had for you also is, how soon did you realize this was also going to be a Wizard of Oz riff.

1:37:57Adam Kempenaar:You know, I, I don't know how soon it was, but you recognize a couple of illusions, certainly by the end, that's very late, but there's a, there's a moment with her slippers, right? With her shoes. And there's, there are some, there are some, there are some, I think before that for sure, but I didn't, I didn't write them down. A little skipping going on and a joke about that. Of course. Yeah. Right. And, and the fact that she is, she is like Dorothy in the land of Oz who keeps acquiring new people as part of her entourage along the way. And they all have certain skills, I suppose, as well. So that element is definitely there.

1:38:33Adam Kempenaar:I like that you brought up the absurdity because one of the things that stood out to me that I really liked about Gail Daughtry is that absurd tone. And what I mean is, specifically, that something I struggle with, often with comedies, is that line you have to walk where you're putting us in the real world, but you're also having things happen that are clearly happening in a comedic universe where they couldn't happen. My brain struggles with that very often. And maybe it's just me, but it's a comedy. and people, that's their reasoning when I bring those things up. Well, it's a comedy. It's goofy.

1:39:22Adam Kempenaar:Goofy things are going to happen. Okay, but everything else about the movie, all the other stakes to the movie are happening in the real world. Okay. In this movie, you know, you know from the opening, pretty much from the opening narration, Fred Melamed's postal worker who is our guide through this story, you know from his tone, you know from the script and the things he's saying that this isn't the real world, that totally crazy, absurd things are going to happen and that anything can happen in this universe. And so I knew what ground I was on and I knew that I could go with it. And if I didn't totally know, I absolutely knew by the time we get to the Jennifer Aniston book signing and the fiance says, I got to go back in and get what my sunglasses or something like that and then doesn't come back because he's having sex with jennifer aniston in the back room for multiple hours i did like yeah i did like how just got that out of the way

1:40:27Josh Larsen:you know didn't waste 20 minutes setting up the fiance's move right no no and there's there's no

1:40:35Adam Kempenaar:conflict in him or anything like that he he just moments earlier says well it'd be jennifer and then he takes advantage of it and that sets up all the action of the film so i knew the universe we were in i went along with it and and then you get the type of humor that i expect from david wayne and i love and it's the jokes that make me laugh the most are like when richard kind shows up and he's just a taxi cab driver in LA who is who is taking Zoe Deutsch's character and her her friend what what is her her character's name Otto played by Miles Gutierrez Riley they're together they they fly out to LA in pursuit of Jon Hamm he's there to help her in this pursuit and just completely straight faced.

1:41:33Adam Kempenaar:He explains that. I know why you're here. Everybody comes out here expecting to be the next Elizabeth Perkins, but there's only one Elizabeth Perkins and that that slayed me. Nice callback to with that. Yep. Yes, there is.

1:41:48Josh Larsen:Yeah. I also want to, you know, there's so many, you know, cameos and guests in here. but I think one of the performances I enjoyed the most was a newcomer to me at least Ben Wong it's Caleb one of the people she picks up along the way an aspiring agent and I just love the the energy he brought which is I don't know there's something he popped because his character had this clear comic identity and yeah tone he was going to go for the entire time and he stayed consistent in that and almost always worked. So yeah, while it was fun to see a lot of the cameos, I think Ben Wong was a highlight too.

1:42:30Josh Larsen:He's very good.

1:42:31Adam Kempenaar:And speaking of Wet Hot American Summer, this movie really is what happens when the state remakes The Wizard of Oz by way of Wet Hot American Summer, because it seemed like they were determined to get in almost, or a lot of key members of the cast from Wet Hot American Summer. Marguerite Moreau shows up for a moment in it. Paul Rudd's going to show up. Of course, there are a bunch of key members too, like Michael Ian Black, who you expect to see in Jolo Trulio from that group. But it is as if they're trying to make sure that we get some of those very familiar faces into the film. That's Gail Daughtry and the Celebrity Sex Pass, which is out in limited release now.

1:43:17Adam Kempenaar:If you get a chance to see it or any of the films we've talked about so far on the show, we'd love to hear your thoughts, feedback at FilmSpotting. dot net.

1:43:25Josh Larsen:How big? It's what we call a global killer. Nothing would survive, not even bacteria. The United States government just asked us to save the world. Anybody want to say no? You think we'll get hazard pay out of this?

1:43:36Adam Kempenaar:Time for some poll results. A couple of weeks ago, we asked you to choose one pair of 90s blockbusters, two films per movie year, the top two movies at the domestic box office. There's 10 of them, Josh. So let's just dig right into the results.

1:43:53Josh Larsen:Last place went to the year 1992 and the pair of Aladdin and Home Alone 2. Only got 1 % of the vote. 2 % of the vote for Home Alone and Ghost. That was the year 1990. I thought for sure there was more Home Alone love out there. All right, jumping up to 6 % of the vote, that went to 1995, Toy Story, and Batman Forever. 1999 came next, Phantom Menace and The Sixth Sense with only 7 % of the vote. You lobbied pretty hard for that one, I thought. Then we've got 1998, Saving Private Ryan and Armageddon with 8 % of the vote. Okay. Jumping into another tier here, 10 % of the vote went to 1996 for Independence Day and Twister.

1:44:38Josh Larsen:13 % of the vote went to 1994, Forrest Gump and the Lion King. I think that's where I landed, if I remember correctly. 14 % of the vote went to 1997. That's Titanic and Men in Black. Second place in this poll with 16 % of the vote was the year 1991. Terminator 2 and Prince of Thieves. Wow. T2 doing a lot of work there. I have to guess that means the winner of our poll. Incredible. Just incredible. 23 % of the vote. Mrs. Doubtfire. Just Mrs. Doubtfire took it on its own. No, actually it was got a little help from Jurassic Park, 1993 there. Mrs. Doubtfire and Jurassic Park win this poll with 23 % of the vote.

1:45:25Adam Kempenaar:The nineties kids and their dinosaurs. They just love playing with their toys. Scott G, let me get this straight. You're asking us to pick one of these pairs and every other film released that year gets dumped in the incinerator. You guys are sick. This is a poll where we're supposed to punish hundreds of perfectly decent films for not having the highest grosses? Oh, and the rules apparently state that every movie from every other year of the decade, century, eternity, they all get eliminated as well. This poll is a crime against cinema, to say nothing of the fact that I can't choose between saving Whoopi Goldberg's performance in Ghost or Tony Collette's in The Sixth Sense.

1:45:59Adam Kempenaar:They do both involve ghosts, don't they? I sentence all three of you to six months of non-stop Michael Bay screenings, especially you, Sam.

1:46:08Josh Larsen:Yeah, I don't know why we're getting punished for Sam's invention here, but... Yeah, that's true. We okayed it, though. We did. Sam went full Thanos here. No planets were preserved at all. That's right. We also heard from Matthew Gladys. It's 1996 in a walk, Independence Day in Twister. I know it sounds crazy when you have Saving Private Ryan, Six Sons, Jurassic Park, and T2, but hear me out. Mrs. Doubtfire, 93, is pretty meh. Armageddon, 98, is Armageddon. And if I never hear that Brian Adams song again, it will be too soon. Plus, 96 has arguably the most stacked casts. Will Smith, Jeff Goldblum, the criminally underrated Mary McDonald, Judd Hirsch, Robert Loja, James Rebhorn, Randy, not necessarily the lesser Quaid in Independence Day.

1:46:56Josh Larsen:Philip Seymour Hoffman, Alan Ruck, and both BPs, Bill Pullman and Bill Paxton in Twister. Game over, man. Game over, man.

1:47:05Adam Kempenaar:Judd Hirsch, you lost Josh there. Sorry. Rick says Terminator 2 is the only one of these movies I absolutely need in my life. I think, yes, a lot of people were there, and that's why it's in second place. And Prince of Thieves has a strong nostalgia draw for me. Oh, everything I do, I do it for 1991.

1:47:26Josh Larsen:Well, I'm glad you have that, Rick. Andrew Howell here. I can't live without T2. And my bonus is I get Alan Rickman as a foppy Hans Gruber. lest you forget Rickman plays the evil sheriff of Nottingham and Prince of Thieves and shared us that note I think

1:47:42Adam Kempenaar:that's true double up on Alan Rickman Oliver Chang says 99 is totally a nostalgia pick for me I have vivid memories of seeing the first trailer for The Phantom Menace in the summer of 98 and then going to an opening night midnight screening where we went to the theater a couple hours early to get our spot in line so we could get a decent seat since there was no such thing as reserved seating I was right there with you it was survival of the fittest back in the day, then going back the next night and seeing it again just because it was Star Wars. I was not right there with you. How can I allow those memories to go into the incinerator?

1:48:13Adam Kempenaar:And of course, Sixth Sense is amazing. This was a no-brainer. I can't imagine my life without either of these films.

1:48:20Josh Larsen:Fair enough, Oliver. All right, one more here from Jeff Clark. Spielberg made D-Day scarier than an asteroid destroying all life on Earth. And in Armageddon, we had a range of really solid actors, including Steve Buscemi, who explains what the phrase space psychosis means, which is helpful since I've not seen it used elsewhere.

1:48:38Adam Kempenaar:Okay. I like your reasoning a lot there, Jeff. We thank everyone who voted in that poll and sent in some feedback. Our new poll looks ahead to next week's top five of 2026 so far. So we are asking you, what is the best film of the year so far? And here are the choices we're giving you.

1:49:03Josh Larsen:28 years later, the bone temple back rooms disclosure day, the drama obsession project. Hail Mary, the sheep detectives and other.

1:49:16Adam Kempenaar:Now I thought that we did a pretty good job. This was largely Sam's doing as these poll questions always are. I thought we did a pretty good job, even though I recall us both telling Sam he could leave out back rooms. And sure enough, back rooms is in dead last. list so i don't know why back rooms is here but that's fine it's there if you want to vote for it if you're one of the few the happy few is your number one well i was going to say additionally i thought it was a good list but other and this this is not uncommon other is decidedly in second place so a lot of people are taking the field josh but is your number one on the list i haven't

1:49:55Josh Larsen:finalized, there's two vying for number one. And I will say one of those options is on this list. And then obviously the other, um, you know, I would go in the direction of other, I think I'll probably right now, if I had to choose in this moment, it would be one of the titles we offered. Okay. How about you? No, I would be voting other.

1:50:17Adam Kempenaar:My number one is not there. I, I look forward to sharing it next week. I will give a little hint. No, I guess I was going to say it hadn't been reviewed on the show. Maybe that's true. I know we didn't discuss my number one on the show. So there you go. I will just leave it there.

1:50:37Josh Larsen:And fair to say we both have at least a title or two we want to be sure to fit in. Yes. So things will very much likely be in flux. But yeah, it'll be interesting to see where listeners land on this best of the year so far.

1:50:51Adam Kempenaar:vote in that poll leave a comment we may read your feedback on air you can do that at filmspotting.net right there at the main page josh that's our show if you'd like to connect with us on social media

1:51:02Josh Larsen:you can find adam and the show on instagram facebook letterboxd youtube and blue sky at film spotting i'm at those places as well as larson on film we are independently produced and listener supported you can support the show by joining the film spotting family at film spotting family.com you can listen early and ad free you'll also get monthly bonus episodes a weekly newsletter and access to the entire show archive for show t-shirts and other merch go to

1:51:31Adam Kempenaar:filmspotting.net slash shop out in limited release this weekend is david wayne's new film gail daughtry and the celebrity sex pass in wide release evil dead burn this is the sixth evil dead movie the third Ramey-less installment since 2013. Complete us, Josh.

1:51:51Josh Larsen:I think I saw the first of those three, which I liked quite a bit. Haven't caught the last two.

1:51:58Adam Kempenaar:The invite is expanding. Josh strongly encourages you to see it. Next week, big things coming Monday, the debut episode of the movie Racket with Michael Phillips. He has a guest, Michael Shannon, where they will be discussing what Francois Truffaut said that there is no such thing as an anti-war movie. They'll discuss whether or not Francois Truffaut is right. That's Monday on Tuesday, Film Spotting SVU, the state of streaming. They're going to talk about Tubi, a deep dive into the Free With Ad streamer, Josh's favorite channel on the internet. The next picture show on Thursday, your beloved True Grit from the Coen brothers.

1:52:44Adam Kempenaar:Josh, they will be pairing that with the new Supergirl. How about that? I may have to see Supergirl just to listen to this pairing because it sounds fascinating. And then Friday, we will have for you our top five films of the year so far.

1:53:01Josh Larsen:Film Spotting is produced by Golden Joe DeSoe and Sam Van Halgren. Without Sam and Golden Joe, this show wouldn't go. Our production assistant is Sophie Kempinar. Special thanks to everyone at WBEZ Chicago. More information is available at WBEZ.org. For Film Spotting, I'm Josh Larson. And I'm Adam Kempinar. Thanks for listening.

1:53:20Adam Kempenaar:This conversation can serve no purpose anymore. Goodbye.

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