From the Archive: This Is Spinal Tap, Stop Making Sense

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2:15What kind of a show are you guys putting on here today? You're not interested in art? No. Now look, we're going to do this thing. We're going to have a conversation.

2:24Josh Larsen:Hey, film spotters, Adam and Josh here. The Film Spotting Archive has reviews, top fives, and more going back to 2005. Access to that archive is just one of the benefits you get as a Film Spotting family member, which you can learn more about at filmspottingfamily.com. This weekend, This Is Spinal Tap is getting an always welcome theatrical re-release. Spinal Tap was part of our 8 from 84 series. We did that back in 2020. It was part of a show dedicated to three great music movies from that great movie year. Stop Making Sense, Purple Rain, and Spinal Tap. How about that lineup? So from March 2020, here is our combined review of Tap and Stop Making Sense.

3:07Hi, I got a tape I want to play.

3:12Josh Larsen:From the opening of Jonathan Demme's Stop Making Sense, that's Talking Heads frontman David Byrne. We get into our 8 from 84 rock trio now, and we'll start with the films that are the consensus masterpieces. Demi's seminal concert film and Rob Reiner's This Is Spinal Tap. Spinal Tap was first to be released. It came out in March of 84, made a modest$5 million at the domestic box office. That's around$12 million in today's dollars, but not surprising considering it soon became a cult hit. It did run in theaters for almost a year, and it marked Rob Reiner's directing debut. Looking at Stop Making Sense, that only played a limited release, opened in New York City in October and made about$5 million in its theatrical run.

3:57Josh Larsen:Jonathan Demme had been working for quite a bit already, started his career a decade earlier making cheap genre movies for Roger Corman. Just before Stop Making Sense, he had made Melvin and Howard and also Swing Shift. So these are two movies we're familiar with, Adam. As a matter of fact, they both showed up when we did our top five films of 1984. I think this was in 2017, around. And our ranking of them on those lists was a little bit different. Spinal Tap for you, the best film of 1984. You had Stop Making Sense ranked number three. I had Stop Making Sense as the second best film. So splitting hairs probably a little bit there, but that's what we do on this show.

4:42Josh Larsen:So now that you've thought about it a little bit more, and especially in the context of Purple Rain and this year that we've been revisiting in this 8 from 84 series that has prompted this show, So do you feel pretty solid about that top ranking for Spinal Tap? Yeah, I do. And I think it may come down to that distinction sometimes we make between best versus favorite. In a lot of ways, I think Stop Making Sense might be the better film or the better crafted film. But in terms of the movie that I absolutely can't imagine living without, I still value This is Spinal Tap just a little bit more. And I want to avoid trying to be too grandiose here and also avoid turning this pandemic we're experiencing and how we're all coping with it into a cliche.

5:30Josh Larsen:I mentioned this last week in relation to our top five 1930s films. We talked about Top Hat and how it served as fantasy escapism for people suffering through the Great Depression. Why couldn't it transport us now as we all sit on our couches? And I think Stop Making Sense offers a completely different type of necessary escape. hey, with Fred and Ginger, you're living vicariously through them. And there's no real sense of community there. And when I rewatched Stop Making Sense for this show, I felt a little bit like Charlton Heston in The Omega Man with that lone print of Woodstock, the last man in the world watching this eclectic group of performers surrounded by people sharing in this collective reverie.

6:10Josh Larsen:And Stop Making Sense, let's be honest, it's a party even without the crowd there, right? There are certainly songs and whole stretches where you kind of forget the crowd is even there as if David Byrne and company are performing only for us, the film watching audience. And we can talk about that in some of the ways Demi approaches it, but just in terms of the number of musicians on stage and the talent and joy of performing, they exhibit and their interaction with each other, which is so crucial. It's like you're on stage with them. Well, and this is why Byrne, David Byrne and Demi were a perfect pairing for this film, for this music documentary.

6:47Josh Larsen:It's exactly what Demi brought to the Justin Timberlake and the Tennessee Kids doc from a few years ago on Netflix, emphasized the communal experience, the 15 plus, I think it was, person band in that case, and the camera floated among each performer and gave them their time. Similar things are happening here, but just as Timberlake was the conductor of that group, Byrne is absolutely, I would say he's beyond the conductor here. He is the auteur of this film. David Byrne is. And we talked a little bit about this when we did that list, the top five films of 84, because the way that he is paying attention to everything from the production design to those who are up on the stage with him, to the props, the way he uses that lamp, that house lamp when they're performing This Must Be the Place, everything he's controlling to a specific degree, Burn is.

7:41Josh Larsen:And then Demi is the sort of filmmaker that wants to make space for all of that. His camera wants to encompass, you see this in his fiction, in his drama films, his camera wants to make room for everyone in the story. And how many group scenes aren't there in Demi films? And that's what, this is a group scene. This is one long group scene made up of the music, the brilliant music from Burn and the talking heads as well. So yeah, Yeah, I think it's just the perfect example of everything coming together. Yeah, I'm going to echo what you said, because that clip we heard from Psycho Killer, that's one of my favorite Demi moments.

8:16Josh Larsen:I think it made my top five Jonathan Demi moments a list we did back when he passed away. And of course, it opens just with David Byrne walking out on stage and he dominates that tune. But that sense of community I'm talking about, this idea of unity that we see on stage throughout the whole rest of the film, it's built into the very fabric of the movie. Yes, it starts with him alone, but the next tune adds just one more piece, Tina Wehma, the bass, right? And they play heaven. And the camera, I'm pretty sure, if not the entire song, 95 % of it stays on a two shot where they are joined together that entire time.

8:48Josh Larsen:It's never about just cutting to what she's doing or cutting to what David Byrne is doing. It's about them together performing. performing. And then the next song adds Chris France on the drums. And I think they perform Thank You for Sending Me an Angel. And the way the camera then gives him his time and goes from behind the drum set, rotating around to the side and the front of the stage, it's rotating around so that it gets those two in the shot with him, right? And what started as just kind of the drummer becomes this trio. And then we're just going to add more and more pieces until everybody finally is on stage commuting together.

9:22Josh Larsen:And you mentioned this specificity that we get. There's no doubt about it. I actually want to play for our listeners a quick clip that I just happened to come across. Our friends at the Blank Check podcast tweeted this, and it's a conversation after a screening, I think, of that Justin Timberlake concert film, where he's talking about what draws him to live music and capturing it and putting it on film? For me, and I love shooting feature films with actors, I love shooting documentaries with real people, but something about shooting live music, I always, this probably isn't true, but I think this is the purest form of filmmaking.

10:09There are these artists doing that, and we're here to team up with that and capture that in the way that best suits the music that's being played.

10:22Josh Larsen:I just love Demi emphasizing the kind of giddiness he has when he says there are these artists doing that, and then when he says we're here to team up with that, again, that sense of team, that sense of community, and how important it is for him to do it in a way that best suits the music being played. That's exactly what you articulated, Josh. There is this precision to it, right? The choreography of the visuals matching the stage choreography. And it would be almost impossible, I think, to rank the top five numbers, the top five songs in this movie if we forced ourselves to do it. But Once in a Lifetime stands out.

10:57Josh Larsen:Life during wartime stands out, as well as making Flippy Floppy. But then you look at one like What a Day That Was, which goes almost completely to close-ups. And that dramatic silhouetted lighting, almost like it's a horror movie. And for a while, we don't get any group shots. It's just isolated shots of each member. Some of the angles are a little bit more odder. But there's almost this mathematical framing to every shot there that matches the song completely.

11:40Josh Larsen:Yeah, for me, it probably is the number I mentioned. This must be the place just because it has all those elements you're talking about. And it's that balance of David Byrne's extreme individuality, extreme oddness, right? Just the oddness he has as a physical presence, but then also the camera will back up and make room for, as you said, the group. And they have this interesting use of, I think we'll probably talk about this when it comes to Purple Rain especially, where there is some choreography, sort of, but at the same time, I think of the group backing away from the stage. And this includes the backup singers and dancers as well, Edna Holt and Lynn Mabry.

12:21Josh Larsen:that everyone kind of backs up in unison, but at the same time, they're each doing their own thing. Those two dancers, Mabry and Holt, each have their own sort of rhythm going on. And so it's at once this group movement that also honors individuality. And I think that that's the magic that Demi knows how to depict and Byrne obviously knows how to create. Yeah, that is the magic of Stop Making Sense. Any final thoughts you want to get in on the film? No, I mean, just one maybe that will bring us into this is Spinal Tap. You mentioned what is a personal favorite as opposed to what is the best. I think another, as I thought of all three of these films together, not even really ranking, but just how they sit with me, an inescapable fact is whatever music you like the best, you're going to resonate with the most.

13:11Josh Larsen:And so let me give my This Is Spinal Tap confession, which maybe explain why I did have it ranked a little bit lower, is that's just brutal music to me. And the question I have for you, Adam, as someone who is in a band that plays on occasion, from what I understand, I still have to see you live, have not been able to do that yet. But, you know, we'll play covers of this genre. I'll let you name the genre, whether it's heavy metal, hair metal, whatever you want to say. But my question is the music in Spinal Tap, do you consider it brutal on purpose or do you consider it a very particular and precise rendition of that kind of music?

13:56Josh Larsen:So are they doing a good job of this kind of music? Basically, if you like this kind of music, are these good performances of those types of songs? Well, I'm going to say it's more the former, but there's some gray area there. I guess I will fundamentally disagree with your position because I have This Is Spine on Tap ranked as my favorite movie of the three. But in terms of the music, it's by far number three, and it's way down at the bottom. And I'm going to be clear here. You're taking the bold position that the mediocre band that's stuck playing Air Force bases in amusement parks and being mocked on the radio isn't very good.

14:28Josh Larsen:Is that what you're saying, Josh? No, no. No, I'm saying heavy metal has been like I would classify as one of those sounds along with leaf blowers and people like revving up their trucks as they sit next to me at a stoplight. That gives me the hives. That's what I'm saying. Yeah, I get it. But I think the way I look at it is, and thank you, you saved me from having to pull out the I'm in a band card, which is essential when talking about Spinal Tap. I knew it was coming, so I thought I'd serve it up for you. You know me well. There's literally nobody. I'm going to go on the record and say there's literally nobody who watches This Is Spinal Tap and appreciates the music unironically.

15:04Josh Larsen:Any of the musicianship, which isn't to say that those guys aren't actually halfway decent players. I mean, they're all decent enough musicians to fake their way through it. And we've seen them perform in other Christopher Guest movies, too. And honestly, that's why I asked, because I'm not saying that they are untalented. I'm saying this isn't my kind of music. So the question was, how does their talent transfer? Well, I guess the nuance is, is that you can't help but look at songs like Big Bottom and Stonehenge and Sex Farm and not recognize them as jokes. And I think what it gets right about heavy metal, and I use that term loosely because I do think it is more rock and roll, but heavy metal does get thrown around, I think a couple times in the film.

15:46Josh Larsen:it gets right that that genre has a juvenile obsession with sex and there's always that vague fascination with the occult and mysticism and those cheap theatrics and even something that i had never really paid attention to before not like it wasn't obviously there but i had never really paid attention to the heart of the movie before the way i did this time which is that rivalry and that friendship between lead singer and guitar player but that's something that's so crucial to almost every rock band out there as well. For me, every band of that ilk, though, from that time, and frankly, just about every band who's ever toured, regardless of what genre they fall into, they would be able to watch Spinal Tap and see themselves in tap, while also totally accurately being able to say, oh, that's not us at all.

16:31Josh Larsen:We don't sound like that. Like, Spinal Tap is a unique entity. As much as they might be parodying certain aspects of heavy metal bands and life on the road. The music is completely its own thing that I don't think any one band out there could say, oh man, they really got us good with that. Yeah. Yeah. And they probably wouldn't want to, because it is pretty bad. So, so let's get to what, what is good. And you mentioned it, the songs are jokes, obviously. Yes. And they're, the lyrics are hysterical and I could sit and watch Marty DeBerge interview these guys. I mean, if the movie was just that, I would be completely happy.

17:08Josh Larsen:And no surprise, I love comic improvisation. And you can just see, I love also seeing actors this talented at it, trying to keep character. Not that they're going to fall out of character and say something out of character. What they're trying to do is keep the glint in their eye when they see an opening from getting too bright. Right. And this is such rich material. And these guys are just so smart at delivering it that that is their true challenge, is just not to get too excited about, you know, what they're going to say. And whether it's, you know, explaining the drummers who they've lost along the way, or even like going up to 11, just those pauses of where DeBerge is like dumbfounded at what he's hearing.

17:54Josh Larsen:Right. And the two of them are going to have to sustain this scene. without giving in or even smiling. It's brilliant stuff. Now, during the Flower People period, who was your drummer? Stumpy's replacement, Peter James Bond. He also died in mysterious circumstances. We were playing a... Festival. Jazz Blues Festival. Where was that? Blues Jazz, really. Blues Jazz Festival. Was he in the Oil... Oil of Lucy. The Oil of Lucy. Oil of Lucy. Jazz Blues Festival. And it was tragic, really. He exploded on stage.

18:29Just like that. It just went up. It just was like a flash of green light. And that was it. Nothing was left. Look at his face. Well, there was. It's true. It's true. There was a little green globule on his drum seat. Like a stain, really. It was more of a stain in a globule, actually. You know, dozens of people spontaneously combust each year. It's just not really widely reported.

18:53Josh Larsen:I agree with you. I think the best scenes in the film were probably completely in lockstep. that if they had just made an entire movie out of Rob Reiner as Marty DeBerge interviewing the band and watching how Derek Smalls, Harry Sheer, knows when to insert himself into the conversation and when to just stay on the outside of it, right? And let Michael McKean and Christopher Guest do their thing and them navigate each other and recognize when they have to let the other guy take the lead. And yes, you're right. Not break character so much because they're all too good to do that. But you can see that moment where they come up right against it.

19:27Josh Larsen:They're so impressed with some bit of riffing that the guy next to them just said that they're almost willing to break, but then they get back into character and manage to come up with a line to follow it with. And you're right. For me, all these years later, no matter how many times I've seen it, it's still funny. It still has all those great quotable lines and those sight gags that everyone knows. But the funniest stuff to me, honestly, besides those conversation scenes we just touched on are the moments where we get a simple cut to Christopher Guest, expressionless, but chomping the gum every time Janine talks.

20:02Josh Larsen:Yeah. Right? Just that simple cut to him. No reaction, no visible reaction, but we know everything he's thinking just based on that cut. And I'm glad you bring up Guest because I think they're all obviously good and they're all giving us, you know, real characters. But Guest, I think, is giving a real performance. For sure. And it's the elements you're talking about. It's those little details where he is within that – he's Nigel Tufnell every moment. You know, he's – whether it's his turn to say something, to throw in a riff or just to sit there and listen, he is not breaking character at all.

20:38Josh Larsen:And it's also – that's where as his films as a director go on, these other mockumentaries he would make, You can see how they are mostly increasingly rooted in character, in stories, in people you can imagine their full lives beyond the interview, the on-camera interview they're having right now. And you can see the seeds of that in his performance as Nigel in this full character he's giving us. Absolutely. Just that mixture of bravado and stupidity is really brilliant. what what can you do but laugh at moments like him saying so it's sexy what's wrong with being sexy when they're talking about the album cover and how sexiest it is it's just perfection so yeah i love both of these films this is spinal tap and stop making sense both of them are available on demand on various platforms right now i do not for one think that the problem was that the band was down i think that the problem may have been that there was a stonehenge monument on the stage that was in danger of being crushed by a dwarf, all right?

21:39That tended to understate the hugeness of the object. I really think you're just making a much too big a thing out of it. Making a big thing out of it would have been a good idea.

21:48Josh Larsen:A reminder that access to the full FilmSpotting archive going back to 2005 is one of the benefits of joining the FilmSpotting family, plus bonus shows, a weekly newsletter, early access to events, and more. You can learn more at FilmSpottingFamily.com. This conversation can serve no purpose anymore. Goodbye.

22:35Josh Larsen:archive going back to 2005. That's filmspottingfamily.com.

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