Magnolia (Archive)

24 Sep 2025 · 41 min · 20 chapters

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In short

This episode is a Film Spotting “9 from 99” revisit of Paul Thomas Anderson’s Magnolia (2019 rewatch; originally reviewed in 1999). Hosts debate whether PTA’s sprawling, melodramatic, Altman-influenced structure is still “a masterwork in progress” or a fully mature masterpiece.

Key claims

the film argues “pro connection” (chance vs. meaning), with regret and forgiveness as emotional through-lines; it comes together on a second viewing; the opening is overwhelming and sometimes self-satisfied, with showy camera push-ins and montage relying heavily on Amy Mann’s “Wise Up.”

Notable examples

frogs falling at the end tied to Exodus 8:2 and weather-report chapter breaks; John C. Reilly’s “I lost my gun today” confession; Philip Seymour Hoffman’s “this is that scene” phone call; Melinda Dillon’s “I’m not through asking my questions.” Guests mentioned: none for this episode; it references iHeart shows and lists Podlandia AO Rewatch collaborators (Jonathan Kreisel, Kyle McLaughlin, Amy Mann, Carrie Brownstein, Fred Armisen) but they’re not actual guests here.

Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.

Chapters

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Film Spotting Archive and Membership

2:34 to 3:28

Discussion about the Film Spotting archive and membership benefits.

“You know, the film spotting archive has a lot.”

Introduction to Magnolia Review

3:28 to 4:04

Introducing the review of the film Magnolia and its context.

“I'll have to muffle my mouth, Star Wars Episode I.”

1999 Film Landscape

4:04 to 4:47

Discussion about the notable films from 1999.

“And actually, they won't hear the results because we're setting up the new question that people can vote in right now.”

Exploring Magnolia's Themes

4:47 to 8:39

In-depth exploration of Magnolia's themes, characters, and artistic choices.

“Willa Caffin, Thomas Kidd, Jean-Baptiste Poelier.”

Character Analysis and Performances

8:39 to 14:01

Analysis of character performances and their impact on the film.

“In your blurb, you rightfully praised John C.”

Exploring Intimacy in Magnolia

14:01 to 15:00

The discussion delves into the intimate moments in Magnolia and their significance.

“But it is the intimate moments that make the film so much more for me than those pyrotechnics.”

Character Connections and Regrets

15:01 to 18:11

Analyzing the connections between characters and the theme of regret in Magnolia.

“I'm really nervous that you're going to hate me soon.”

Confronting the Past

18:12 to 21:32

A deep dive into character confrontations and emotional breakthroughs.

“I'm not saying there's an answer or a clue, but it is considering this essential question, it seems to me.”

Meta Elements and Film Structure

21:33 to 24:18

Discussing the meta elements in Magnolia and its unique storytelling approach.

“You do get the sense that a choice has been made.”

Performance Highlights and Impact

24:19 to 28:00

A review of standout performances, particularly by Philip Seymour Hoffman.

“But that all, for me, is building to a great moment and this idea of confrontation.”
Show all 20 chapters

Analyzing Philip Seymour Hoffman's Performance

28:00 to 29:18

Explore the nuances of Philip Seymour Hoffman's character and acting in Magnolia.

“Like this is the scene of the movie where the guy's trying to get a hold of the long lost son, you know, but this is that scene.”

Tom Cruise's Character Journey

29:18 to 31:28

Discussion of Tom Cruise's multi-faceted character and performance in the film.

“You know, what's interesting about him in the film is that a lot of these are uncomfortable characters.”

Critique of Supporting Characters

31:28 to 33:18

Examination of the supporting characters and their contributions to the film's narrative.

“And you touched on those silent moments.”

Thematic Elements of Coincidence

33:18 to 35:55

Delve into the themes of coincidence and fate as presented in Magnolia.

“And the one thing watching again that I did notice about both Moore and William H.”

Frogs: Symbolism and Interpretation

35:55 to 37:55

Analyze the significance of the frogs in the film and their metaphorical implications.

“There are chapter breaks, too, essentially, which I didn't remember that are all weather reports.”

Prologue and Opening Sequence Critique

37:55 to 41:22

Critique of the film's prologue and its impact on viewer expectations.

“Had completely forgotten about that opening sequence in the narration by Ricky Jay, who does appear in the film as kind of the executive producer or one of the producers of the game show.”

Conclusion and Film's Mastery of Storytelling

41:22 to 42:05

Final thoughts on Magnolia's storytelling techniques and overall effectiveness.

“I also think there's an over-reliance on the first Amy Mann song we hear, one, to create a sense of montage that otherwise isn't really there in the actual filmmaking.”

Discussion on Magnolia's Mastery

42:05 to 42:43

Explore the elements that contribute to Magnolia being viewed as a masterwork.

“But when Magnolia settles down, that's when it's closer to a masterwork.”

Insights from Collaborators

43:33 to 44:06

Hear about the contributions of various collaborators involved in Magnolia.

“the entire Film Spotting archive going back to 2005.”

Improvisation in Film

44:06 to 45:54

Discuss the role of improvisation in filmmaking as illustrated by Magnolia.

“collaborators, and friends, including director Jonathan Kreisel, the mayor himself, Kyle McLaughlin, legendary musician Amy Mann, and many more.”
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Transcript

Automatic transcript. May contain errors.

0:00Adam Kempenaar:This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed human. Hey, Portlandia fans. Carrie Brownstein and Fred Armisen here. The dream of the 90s is alive in podcast form. We're launching Podlandia AO Rewatch, our brand new podcast where we revisit every episode of Portlandia together.

0:17Josh Larsen:Breaking down sketches, going deep on our iconic characters, and pulling back the curtain on how it all got made.

0:22Adam Kempenaar:And we'll also be joined by the people who helped bring it all to life. guest stars, collaborators, and friends, including director Jonathan Kreisel, the mayor himself, Kyle McLaughlin, legendary musician Amy Mann, and many more. Kyle is going for it here. You fully improvised not just words, but a song. Well, I thought you were all going to write a song. I remember you thinking that.

0:43Josh Larsen:Listen to Podlandia, AAO Rewatch on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

0:51Adam Kempenaar:What's up, fam? It's sports journalist Ari Chambers. Hey, what's up, y 'all? It's your girl, Sam J. And we're the hosts of Everyone Watches Women's Sports, a new podcast from Together. We're breaking down the biggest headlines, the viral moments, and the stories everyone's talking about across women's sports. From game-changing performances to culture-shifting conversations, we'll give you our takes, our debates, and a few laughs along the way. Because everyone watches women's sports.

1:14Josh Larsen:Listen to Everyone Watches Women's Sports on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

1:21Adam Kempenaar:This is Chelsea Handler from Dear Chelsea. Every week, the news gets worse, the world gets crazier, and Yamanika is here to tell whoever's responsible, you're the problem. Do you know I just found out who Sidney Sweeney was? If he got a bunch of women, then I should have a bunch of men. Do better or do less so I don't have to do so much. I'm Yamanika, and I'm out. Listen to You're the Problem with Yamanika on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. on Raiders of the Lost podcast we explore cinema like no one else including huge interviews with stars like Ryan Gosling on Project Hail Mary it was like the Jaws shark didn't always work came with its own problems that's what made it great the cast of Obsession on set there was so much magic happening with each scene we were putting together deep dives into classics like 2001 A Space Odyssey or Fight Club, plus weekly episodes on all industry news.

2:19Adam Kempenaar:Listen to Raiders of the Lost podcast on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. And for more, follow at Raiders of the Lost podcast and at TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok.

2:34Josh Larsen:Hey, film spotters, Adam and Josh here. You know, the film spotting archive has a lot. It has reviews, it's got top fives and more going back to 2005. And if you want access to that full archive, just become a member of the film spotting family. That's one of the benefits you get. And you can learn more about that at filmspottingfamily.com. Now we've got a new Paul Thomas Anderson film this week. So we're going to dip into that archive for our review of Magnolia, which wasn't all that long ago.

3:09Adam Kempenaar:Right, Adam? No, no. 2019. It was part of our nine from 99 series. Yeah, we're getting ready for one battle after another. We're seeing it this weekend. We'll talk about it on next week's episode. Nine from 99 was fun. Of course, that was jam packed because 1999 is one of our all time great movie years. We talked about the Matrix being John Malkovich, the Blair Witch Project, the Sixth Sense Fight Club, Eyes Wide Shut.

3:35Josh Larsen:Wait, wait, wait, wait.

3:36Adam Kempenaar:You skipped over. I'll have to muffle my mouth, Star Wars Episode I. I think you also missed American Beauty. Yeah, we talked about those two. We had to reckon with the entire year, and yes, we also revisited Magnolia. People are going to hear this just before they hear us talk about on Friday, and we share the results to the current deeply flawed, deeply troubling, more like film spotting poll question. And actually, they won't hear the results because we're setting up the new question that people can vote in right now. The PTA decades poll. Do you keep you can only keep one decade? Do you keep the 90s that has boogie nights in Magnolia?

4:18Or do you keep the 2000s?

4:21Adam Kempenaar:Or do you keep the 2010s? We're leaving out the 2020s for now. It's such a tough choice, Josh. And maybe people listening to us talk about Magnolia will make them think that the 90s is the decade they have to hold on to.

4:35Josh Larsen:It's probably going to give the 90s a little bit of a bump in that poll. For now, from November 2019, here is that 9 from 99 review of Magnolia.

4:47Adam Kempenaar:There is the story of a boy genius. Willa Caffin, Thomas Kidd, Jean-Baptiste Poelier.

4:52Josh Larsen:And the game show host. And Jimmy Gator.

4:55Adam Kempenaar:Live from Burbank, California.

4:57Josh Larsen:First question for 25. This French playwright and actor joined the Bajar troupe of actors.

5:02Adam Kempenaar:And the ex-boy genius. I'm Chris Kidani Smith.

5:05Josh Larsen:I used to be smart.

5:06Adam Kempenaar:Now I'm just stupid. There is the story of the dying man. I'm Earl Partridge.

5:10Josh Larsen:I have a son, you know. You do? Uh, find him.

5:13Adam Kempenaar:I'm Frank T.J. Mackey. His lost son. What did he say? Because I am not gonna take care of him. What does he want? And the dying man's wife.

5:21Josh Larsen:I'm Linda Partridge. I took care of him through this, Alan. What now then? Me and him. Do you understand? There's no one else.

5:26Adam Kempenaar:No one else.

5:27Josh Larsen:The caretaker. I'm Phil Parma. See, this is the scene of the movie where you help me out. And there is the story of a mother.

5:35Adam Kempenaar:Unlike Paul Thomas Anderson, sadly, my creativity couldn't match my ambition this week. I started learning the guitar chords and rewriting the lyrics to Amy Mann's Wise Up before I realized I just wasn't going to be able to pull off singing your setup. Oh, wow. That's no joke. I started. Oh, don't tease me like that. It could have been great. So I'm taking an easier route instead, one already paved for me. You asked whether PTA was already a master filmmaker in 99 or if he was still warming up with Magnolia. And an A.V. Club piece from August described the film as, quote, exactly the kind of thing an artsy kid with all the feelings would write.

6:12Adam Kempenaar:It's also the kind of thing that begs for the red pen, end quote. And earlier this week in the Film Spotting newsletter, our producer Sam took a similar tack, comparing PTA's sprawling, intense day in the life of several somewhat randomly connected Southern Californians to Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club band. It's become conventional wisdom, according to Sam, to consider the five or so years prior to 2007's There Will Be Blood as a, quote, sort of gestation period where Paul Thomas Anderson transformed from a wonderkind with more talent than wisdom, eager to show off how thoroughly he's absorbed the lessons of his idols to an artist of mature genius, content to use his outsized talents to more enigmatic and subtle ends, end quote.

6:53Adam Kempenaar:He then confesses, I was guilty of this kind of thinking myself before revisiting Magnolia. It definitely struck me as the work of a younger artist, but in the same way that Sgt. Pepper's is the work of young artists. Both are try-anything-slash-everything works of boundless artistic imagination and formal mastery, but they are also works of great beauty, empathy, and understanding. You know, masterpieces. So a little bit of that classic Sam Van Halgren Van Perbole in there for you. I'm going to propose that you too, Josh, were guilty of such thinking coming into this revisit. The receipts include your three out of four star blurb, presumably written back in 99.

7:31Adam Kempenaar:Is that right? Yeah, I think it's pulled from that. Okay. In which you call Magnolia another great imitation of a great movie from writer-director Paul Thomas Anderson. And you cite Altman's Nashville and Shortcuts as Magnolia's prime influences. You're complimentary, to be sure, but the imitation implication suggests a still relatively unformed artist, a position supported by your letterboxd ranking of PTA's films. I want to state clearly that, at least according to my research, you have not actually given a negative review to any Paul Thomas Anderson movie. But that would be correct. You do have, in last place, his debut, Hard Eight or Sydney.

8:10Adam Kempenaar:Third from the bottom, his second and breakout feature, Boogie Nights. And in between those two is the film we're discussing, Magnolia. His three earliest works are the ones you fancy the least. So, are you sticking to this narrative or are you ready to revise the list? Is PTA's tale of wounded children, despicable patriarchs, and their collaterally damaged caretakers a more profound, developed piece of art than you initially gave it credit for? And did any of the performances surprise you on this rewatch? In your blurb, you rightfully praised John C. Reilly's do-gooder policeman Jim Curing, Philip Seymour Hoffman's emotional hospice attendant Phil Parma, and Tom Cruise's malevolently charismatic seduce-and-destroy instructor Frank T.J.

8:54Adam Kempenaar:Mackey, a role that earned him a Best Supporting Oscar nomination. But you were not a fan of Julianne Moore's manic, adulterous wife Linda or William H. Macy as whiz kid Donnie Smith, who has so much love to give. Won't you give some of your love to Macy and to the artistry of PTA? Artistry that extends beyond bravura steadicam shots to non-diegetic ensemble sing-alongs and, of course, frogs falling from the sky. Or will you always think of Magnolia most fondly as the stepping stone to PTA's true masterpiece, his next film, Punch Drunk Love?

9:29Josh Larsen:Yes, Punch Drunk Love is just so wonderful. That's a whole other conversation. Can't wait till we do the Sacred Cow review of that one. But I think this is going to be – I don't know that we've had a full-on mea culpa in the 9 from 99 series yet. I know positions have shifted a little bit here and there. But who was this stingy bastard in 1999? Yes. Who – now mind you, again, as you've stated, three out of four stars, you know, positive review. But why did I get so focused on the things that held me back from it? Just wrote it off as an Altman riff off. Talk about – no, no, no. Don't rephrase what you've already read.

10:08Josh Larsen:That's not exactly how I couched it. Notice the word great there. I noticed it. When I wrote great imitation. So we're going to get to how I feel about some of those things I pointed out before. But what was with me, that's where I decided to go first. Yes, this thing has so many wonders to it. The reservations I have pale in comparison to what this movie does well. And I would say of the performances, we'll circle back to that, but my biggest sin was probably in a longer print review that I wrote that I dragged out of some boxes, I didn't care for Melora Walters. And this watch, she just stunned me.

10:51Josh Larsen:Now, maybe those three characters have something in common we can get to. Maybe it's just a matter that I had not yet learned to appreciate melodrama. I described this as we led into this review as a mellow drama, and I don't think that was a genre that I quite understood 20 years ago as well or appreciated as well as I do now. Maybe that had something to do with it. But, yeah, I way underrated this. Even if I think it's still – it's more of a masterwork in progress, I'll stand by that. But I'm not going to be as harsh as it sounds like that AV Club reappraisal was. It's still something absolutely wonderful as is, and I'm looking forward to spending some time on those positives.

11:28Adam Kempenaar:Yeah, me as well. I'd love to hear more because I'm also a big fan of this film and I'm a big fan of all of Paul Thomas Anderson's films. Our rankings are very different, though, ultimately the same because we're positive on all of them. And I think watching Magnolia again, I did realize that it would be very easy to be completely overwhelmed by it or exhilarated by the sheer audacity and the speed of it. It's three hours and eight minutes long. I had forgotten, honestly, that it was that long. Yeah, me too. And didn't quite believe the timer on the TV when it said it was that long. But especially that first 90 minutes before PTA deliberately slows the movie down.

12:06Adam Kempenaar:And I think there is a point where he deliberately slows it down. It's during Stanley's decision, the kid on TV who has told the world that he's not going to answer that question. He's standing his ground. He's not going to be forced into this position anymore. And similarly, all of the other characters at that moment are having kind of breakthrough personal moments. And that's where he really does PTA for better or worse, elongate that that entire section, I think. But up until that, with the music and the quick cuts that do connect all these storylines and characters, it just propels forward.

12:40Adam Kempenaar:and as we talk about the artistry of it and how bold it is and whether or not it reflects an immature artist at this point. I mean, I did listen to the interview PTA gave to Marc Maron on WTF a few years back where he basically says in that interview, yeah, it probably should have had 20 minutes cut from it. I was a little bit out of control. I was overly eager and I wasn't going to be stopped. I was going to have my way on that movie. Who am I to argue with PTA? But that boldness, going for a moment like we get with the frogs at the end, like the Amy Mann song, Wise Up, that we've referenced a few times, even the moment like the one with Jim and Claudia.

13:16Adam Kempenaar:So this is John C. Reilly and Melora Walters who have met when he has been called to her house by neighbors who are complaining about the noise. So there's some disturbance there and they do end up making a connection and going out that evening. And they're two very broken people we see in that moment. But she has a line at one point where she says, now that I've met you, would you object to never seeing me again? That does feel a little bit forced. And now in retrospect, I know that that is a line from an Amy Mann song and her songs are really the foundation of this entire soundtrack. But it was a line he fell in love with.

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13:53Adam Kempenaar:And he said, I'm going to find a reason to get this into the movie. I'm going to go ahead and force it into the film. And you know what? I'm on board with all of that. But it is the intimate moments that make the film so much more for me than those pyrotechnics. And I will go back to that same scene with Jim and Claudia, where it's pretty early in the conversation. And she's saying to him, you're so good. You're so put together. You're a police officer. And PTA doesn't linger on John C. Reilly's face, but he does keep the camera on him just long enough to see that flicker in his eyes, where Reilly is processing Jim, the character he's playing, is processing so much in that flicker.

14:34Adam Kempenaar:He's recognizing that they're exactly the same, that they are broken, that in addition to that, he's somehow fooled her and that he's going to have to be completely honest with her like he isn't really with anybody else and it's going to be uncomfortable and he's going to reveal just how truly pathetic he is to her and that kind of, I guess, nakedness of it, of that emotion, of that vulnerability is really what I think makes Magnolia special. Can I tell you something? Yeah, of course. I'm really nervous that you're going to hate me soon. You're going to find stuff out about me, and you're going to hate me.

15:11Adam Kempenaar:No, like what? What do you mean? You have so much, so many good things, and you seem so together. You're a police officer, and you seem so straight and put together without any problems.

15:25Josh Larsen:I lost my gun today.

15:27Adam Kempenaar:What?

15:28Josh Larsen:I lost my gun today when I left you, and I'm the laughingstock of a lot of people. I wanted to tell you. I wanted you to know. And it's on my mind. And it makes me look like a fool. And I feel like a fool. That might be my favorite scene. Really? Of the film on this rewatch. And you're right. It's relatively unshowy in terms of the camera work compared to a lot of what we get here. But the timing of Riley's response when Officer Jim jumps in as she's talking about how she's messed up and he's so good. I lost my gun today. I lost my gun today. And it's like he just he blurts it out because you're right.

16:07Josh Larsen:He's trying to keep up with her with what she's throwing at him. And then what he follows that up with, I'm looked down on and I know that. And he's he's it's it's as if he may have always known that, but he's maybe never admitted it to himself until this moment. Right. And her presence and her vulnerability is allowing him to do that. And then there is a bit of technical virtuosity when they kiss and we get the camera push in on them. I will have other things to say about other uses of camera pushes that maybe 483 we get in the first 20 minutes. But this camera push is absolutely perfect. I also like about Officer Jim and Riley's performance how he's always talking.

16:47Josh Larsen:And the choice Anderson makes, there are a couple times in the movie where he's still talking and we see that, but we can't hear him. Right. One is when he's escorting Donnie back into the store to put back the money he's stolen from the safe.

17:01Adam Kempenaar:And the closing of the film, too, actually, in a more dramatic moment.

17:04Josh Larsen:That's what I was going to say. With Donnie, we see his mouth moving. We see Officer Jim's mouth moving and we just don't hear him. But then you're right. The final scene, we do kind of hear him. And if you listen in over the Amy Mann song, you can make out what he's saying. But it's not what the soundtrack prioritizes. No. So it's just a good way of keeping that reaction. Yes. and keeping that character consistent. This is a guy who's just always talking, trying to say the right thing, being helpful more often than not, I think. Certainly trying to be. I do love that quality about him. So the overarching thing that I enjoyed about this movie, seen it a second time, and it sounds ridiculous not to have watched this movie a second time because it is so overwhelming.

17:44Josh Larsen:How could I not have wanted to go back to it and try to figure out more and just piece more together?

17:49Adam Kempenaar:Yeah, more than any other film. And I'll just say real quick, We've watched some mind benders in this 999 series. Oh, yeah, for sure. Looking back on The Matrix and The Sixth Sense and other films that you want to try to make sense of. And this is the only one where I really feel like I needed to watch it a second time before discussing it or what would ultimately be a third time.

18:06Josh Larsen:For sure. And as wild as it all is, it all comes together in at least one way. I'm not saying there's an answer or a clue, but it is considering this essential question, it seems to me. Basically, do things happen for a reason? Is everything the phrase that's repeated often a matter of chance or are things crucially connected? And I think from the structure of this film to the emotional beats that it hits to the frogs, throw the frogs in here to Magnolia argues that, yes, we are connected. It may not be entirely sure how we're connected or why we're connected, but undoubtedly this is a movie that's pro connection.

18:46Josh Larsen:it's anti-chaos and i think this is why for all of its tragedy and you know there are some really awful things we learn that these some of these characters have suffered yes i do find it strangely comforting and i think this is maybe where the regret theme is important and regret is also something that's mentioned a number of times by multiple characters when we learn about the awful things they've done that they should be regretful about but if regret basically if everything is just a coincidence, then what's the point of regret? Why bother with regret if there's no sense of control here at all?

19:23Josh Larsen:And I think it's because the movie shows us that there is regret because we are connected by the things that are beyond our control, yes, by things that are greater than us, yes, but also by our choices, especially those choices in our relationships. So again, back to Officer Jim near the end when he says, can we forgive? That's the tough part of the job. That's a tough part of walking down the street, right? That's one way to corral the chaos of the universe, to forgive. And that's a through line that was just so consistent for me in watching this movie that is probably one of the things I should have focused on and been less worried about whatever trick Anderson was pulling out of his bag to get there.

20:02Adam Kempenaar:Yeah, well, there's certainly a lot of catharsis here, and there are undoubtedly connections, not just being made with the camera, but if you really break it down, all nine or ten or however many characters there are in this film, we see that there is something that is linking them beyond just the thematics, but there's that thematic element as well. And in every sort of subplot, there is an element of a patriarch, as I mentioned, who has done terrible damage to a child. And I think one of the things that's kind of comforting about the ending of the film, even though or a moment near the end of the film, even though it's not necessarily the moment of emotional breakthrough we would want on the part of the father.

20:42Adam Kempenaar:But when Stanley is able to go into his father and confront him with his father's mistreatment of his abuse, maybe not on the scale of Melora Walter's character or of Frank Tom Cruise's character at the hands of Jason Robards. But the fact that he's able to go in, you talk about that connection. It's as if even though he doesn't know those other people in the story that we're watching, we know the other people and we know what they've lived through and we know what they regret and feel at this point in their lives. And somehow he has absorbed that. And now he's able to go into his father and say things need to be different.

21:17Adam Kempenaar:And there's hope. There is hope in Stanley that somehow does, I think, make you feel better about everything at the end of this film.

21:24Josh Larsen:I like how that scene is played, too, though, where his father doesn't. He kind of ignores him and tells him to go to bed, go back to bed twice. So it doesn't play it for like this easy, cathartic moment. But you're right. You do get the sense that a choice has been made. That's Stanley.

21:40Adam Kempenaar:I think it's just in the act of confronting it. I'm going to talk about that a little bit more, because when you talk about John C. Reilly's character and him telling us in that kind of voiceover about how hard it is just dealing with forgiveness and getting through the day, that's a meta element in a film that has a lot of them. The fact that we hear him sometimes talking to us, where it's almost as if there's a documentary crew in the car with him, but not really. But he's clearly just talking to himself. To himself. Yeah, that's how I understood it. But it very much feels like he's talking to us, the audience.

22:14Adam Kempenaar:And there is that moment where Phil Parma, the Philip Seymour Hoffman character, and wow, talk about an amazing performance. Not a surprise. Unbelievable. Somehow a surprise at just how good it was. when he's talking on the phone and he's saying, this is that scene in the movie. Things happen in the movie sometimes like this, and I need you to now do it. I like that because it fits in with, I think, everything else that's going on in the film. The moment when we are exiting Melora Walter's apartment and the camera quickly shows us the painting on the wall and the part that says, but it did happen, that's written on the painting.

22:50Adam Kempenaar:A note just for us, the viewer, the fact that most of the drama and suspense is built around a TV show, right? Characters watching it at different points. It's the game show and how that plays out. The fact that Earl Partridge, the Jason Robards character, is a TV producer who is the producer of that game show. And it makes you think of the Partridge family, of course. This is the dysfunctional version of the Partridge family. And all these characters tie back to him. And did you catch in the credits to the Henry Gibson character, the kind of character who's in the bar putting on the airs of being this rich man of class who's talking to and kind of harassing talking to donnie donnie uh the william h macy character his name is thurston howell which is the millionaire character from gilligan's island so pta is playing with all of this stuff including all of the different references to exodus 8 2 and the different uses of the numbers 8 and 2 that are in the film the movie just dares you to repeatedly watch it as we noted for these connections.

23:49Adam Kempenaar:But a couple more. Cruz unravels in front of a camera. His entire facade breaks down when he's questioned for a TV news profile of some kind. And isn't the whole film in a way, despite how obviously cinematic it is, isn't it all kind of like a TV drama with all these different characters that you meet, whether it's a sitcom or whatever, or a melodrama, all these different storylines we're just kind of checking in on. I compared it, and not derisively, to a soap opera in my original print review. There is that element to it. But that all, for me, is building to a great moment and this idea of confrontation.

24:24Adam Kempenaar:And I want to talk about some of the surprises in the movie for you. If there were, as there have been throughout this series, certain moments where you just completely had forgotten about them in the 20 years that have passed, I kind of forgot about the Melinda Dillon character who plays Philip Baker Hall, Jimmy Gator, the TV host's wife. And I forgot about that scene completely that they have where he's come home from the taping. He has had some kind of attack. He's dying. And we've seen her up to this point be the doting wife. She has always been caring for him and worried about him. And you feel like she has possibly become content to accept a certain version of her life.

25:03Adam Kempenaar:She is married to this guy who's successful. She's had a good life. and she loves this man, but she's been in denial about his past indiscretions, which he confesses to, cheating on her multiple times. And she's probably been in denial about the sexual abuse of their daughter. And it's only when he unburdens himself of one of those anchors that's around his neck as he's dying, but not the other, that she forces him to really confront it. It's as if she's saying, if you're going to try to make yourself feel better as you die by telling the truth and making me deal with this now, well, then you're going to have to actually be totally honest with yourself and with me.

25:43Adam Kempenaar:And I'm going to have to hear all of it. And her line, when she turns to him and says, I'm not through asking my questions. That's one of the great lines and great line deliveries in the entire movie, I think. I think it speaks to the inquisitive nature of this movie and that idea of confronting truth, confronting the reality within the randomness and accepting certain narratives or abandoning certain accepted narratives. We see all these characters trying to carve out these new paths that seem to have been decided for them. So all those meta elements actually kind of swirl together, I think, in a really neat way.

26:18Josh Larsen:I'm so glad you brought up Melinda Dillon because I did remember that scene. I actually did not remember. I mean, it's really kind of the most horrible secret of the film. So it did stick with me, but I did not remember who played the wife. And I don't remember how good she was in that scene because the element, you're right how you describe it, but it also is not like a got you, like a courtroom sort of you're on the stand now. You realize in her performance the little hesitation she has, she could make that choice to still deny it that you're talking about. But the courage it took for her to say he may die tonight, but I am going to follow this through no matter how painful this is going to get.

27:00Josh Larsen:and the courage that she brings to that. I think she probably has maybe three scenes in the film or four, but that scene between them is just so absolutely wrenching, and she's fantastic in it.

27:11Adam Kempenaar:Do you feel better now that you've said this? I don't know. Well, I'm not mad. Oh,

27:25I am, but I'm not, you know?

27:30Josh Larsen:I love you so much, Rose.

27:33Adam Kempenaar:I'm not through asking my questions.

27:36Josh Larsen:The other performances that I did want to talk about, you've touched on a lot of them. I think we covered what's so great about Riley. Philip Seymour Hoffman, you absolutely see why Paul Thomas Anderson was like, I'm eventually giving this guy his own movie, or as close as you could, with the master. From what he does here, I feel like that line, this is that scene. I know this sounds silly and I know that I might sound ridiculous. Like this is the scene of the movie where the guy's trying to get a hold of the long lost son, you know, but this is that scene. This is that scene. And I think they have those scenes in movies because they're true, you know, because they really happen.

28:15Josh Larsen:And you got to believe me, this is really happening. It's again, it's it's PTA like dancing. scene. Like, just like it's a little too, little too much. But if anybody could sell it, Philip Seymour Hoffman to say it, OK, it's going to work. And he pulls it off. Well, yeah, I just want to say he makes it something a real human would say.

28:35Adam Kempenaar:Yeah, he does. While also being idiosyncratic with every moment, but not distractingly so anything that he says is supposed to be remotely comic is a little funnier than that moment probably should be or could have been with another actor. And you talk about wrenching, every emotional beat is a little more heartbreaking than that moment could otherwise be, I think, because really the secret of it, I think, to the acting with Hoffman is that he's always serving the other character in the scene, whether it's Cruz, whether it's Robards, whether it's Julianne Moore and her histrionics. You really see that in their interaction.

29:07Adam Kempenaar:You really see it, right? He is just a character and an actor, ultimately, who's bursting with empathy. And as I said, not a surprise because we all know he's one of the best actors ever. And yet moment to moment, he constantly surprised me.

29:20Josh Larsen:You know, what's interesting about him in the film is that a lot of these are uncomfortable characters. And even if you're interested in their stories and where they're going to go, when we return to them, you're a little bit on edge. Whenever it comes back to Phil, you feel like you're in good hands. You're like, this is a good place to be. Part of that is the occupation, this nurse, but it's also the empathy that you talked about. So Cruise, I mean, you know, not surprising. It was probably the standout performance for me the first time I saw it. Watching it again, I like to think, and having seen 20 years of Tom Cruise performances since then, I like to think that on set, the early version of Frank Mackey we get is that Cruise does like a less misogynistic version of that for himself to get himself pumped up for every scene he does.

30:01Josh Larsen:It's just fantastic how he gets himself ramped up. And he's giving two performances here, right? He is, of course. Screening first half where we see him. Then also the bravado breaking down during the interview that he mentioned. But really the breakdown comes. He doesn't break down there. He kind of like shuts down there, right? That stare. And he just says, I'm silently judging you. Yes. Wow. Yeah. But the real breakdown comes when he does, of course, finally meet his father who's on his deathbed. And again, Cruz using all his Cruz powers not to cry. Right. And saying that, right? I'm not going to let you make me cry, even though as an actor, that's what the character requires.

30:44Josh Larsen:But you just knowing what sort of a performer Cruz is, how he's 110 percent all the time. Yes. You can see when he's gripping his hand and trying to prevent that. Yeah. How much he's giving it.

30:54Adam Kempenaar:I think not a surprise. You're right. And yet I did feel like he was even better than I remembered it. And I think it's because in 99 there was that element of, oh, we're watching Tom Cruise do something he's never done before. We're watching Tom Cruise play a vile character and there was a performative aspect to it. As you said, there is certainly a performative aspect to the character he's playing. He is playing a role. Absolutely. As Frank TJ Mackey. And he is a performer on stage for his sort of sycophantic fans who are buying his product. But it is a very textured performance and it's a very powerful performance.

31:30Adam Kempenaar:And you touched on those silent moments. It isn't just the blatant moments of misogyny and some of the exercises he does in his underwear that all of that, the backward somersault. Right. It really is. Again, it speaks to the whole film. It's those quieter moments. And I do think that breakdown with Robards and you nailed it, that demand of himself to not cry, but his body taking over in those moments and kind of almost forcing it out of him is really strong. I'm not going to cry. I'm not gonna cry for you.

32:12Adam Kempenaar:You c*** sucker, I know you can hear me. I want you to know that I hate your c*** guts. You can just c*** die, you c***. And I hope it hurts. I c*** hope it hurts. now I'll throw at you as I mentioned from your 99 take not a fan of William H. Macy and Julianne Moore I do think that Donnie's storyline overall is the weakest link in the film I do feel like those bar scenes anytime we go back to that bar I felt as if I was ready I was ready to go sooner than Paul Thomas Anderson was ready to go yeah ready to get back to some other characters felt like it, maybe meandered a little bit and definitely had some redundancy in terms of him articulating his pain and his loneliness.

33:00Adam Kempenaar:That isn't to say, though, I don't think William H. Macy is really good in the film. I think it's exactly the type of performance we've seen from William H. Macy in a lot of great films.

33:08Josh Larsen:Yeah, I would say, you know, I cited those two performances, but I think it was more to suggest that the material was not serving them as well that served the other characters. I do agree. And maybe for me, partly it's also the, obviously it's a film of coincidences, but having two quiz kids, a grown quiz kid and the young quiz kid was almost, you know, like too much of a doubling down on that sort of theme. And the one thing watching again that I did notice about both Moore and William H. Macy's scenes, and Melora Walter's scenes has a bit of this, but as I said, I think she navigates them a little bit better.

33:43Josh Larsen:there's a lot of shouting back and forth with other people, whether it's the multiple lawyers that Julianne Moore's character goes to meet or Donnie with his bosses. It speaks also to this element of this was a movie that you get the sense and it sounds like he said he wasn't going to cut a second out of. And those maybe have been the places, those heightened emotion shouting matches that those two characters get engaged in became a little bit redundant for me. But, you know, I would not go so far to say they are bad performances. I don't think the material is up to the level there in those scenes that it is elsewhere.

34:20Adam Kempenaar:Well, I'll admit, I'm not sure ultimately where I fall on Julianne Moore watching this film. And I would have said coming into it, oh, of course. I mean, I think she was nominated for an Oscar as well, along with Cruise. And she clearly has a great body of work behind her. I've enjoyed a lot of her performances. But there is a theatricality that goes beyond just a bigness and goes beyond just the yelling. There is something very pronounced and very forced about her performance that I don't feel in any other performance in the film. And you could point to the fact that she's a character who is becoming progressively unhinged and is also fueled by drugs.

34:54Adam Kempenaar:I think that's very clear. So the performance being a little bit scattered makes sense. And yet, like I said, it did overall stand out for me as one. I was never quite on the same plane with her when she was on screen. I mentioned surprises in terms of things you just didn't remember at all about the film. Did you have anything that stood out to you, a certain scene or an idea that wasn't something you recalled from your previous viewing?

35:19Josh Larsen:Well, do you want to talk about the frogs? I mean, we can. That's the biggest surprise in the film. Obviously, I knew it was coming. But just, you know, I also had ahead of me. Are the frogs going to make any sense this time or any more sense? And obviously, as you suggested, they are foreshadowed. We see that Exodus 8-2, you know, about the plague of the frogs in Egypt. We see a sign that just says Exodus 8-2, an audience member holding at the game show and someone comes and takes it away. It's also, I think, foreshadowed in the boys rap to Officer Jim on the street. I think the final line there is when the sunshine don't work, the good Lord bring the rain in, which could obviously suggest the storm we see, but also maybe the storm of frogs.

36:02Josh Larsen:There are chapter breaks, too, essentially, which I didn't remember that are all weather reports.

36:06Adam Kempenaar:It suggests maybe not that frogs are going to fall from the sky, but the weather is getting worse.

36:11Josh Larsen:Yes. And whether the movie is preoccupied with it and whether something still, no matter whatever technological developments have come about, we cannot control. Can't read it, can't control. It's the ultimate chaos. So I do think with the frogs, it's telling that the first person to experience it is Jim because he's maybe the only one in the film who seems to believe in a providential God. Some of those moments where he's talking to himself are actually one or two are actually prayers. Yep. So he seems to have this sense. We see the cross behind him. Yeah, yeah. Pointedly. He seems to have a sense that he believes there's someone guiding events, right?

36:45Josh Larsen:Putting things in his path, giving him then the choice of what to do with what he comes across. So something more than just coincidence.

36:55Adam Kempenaar:He praised God, too, to help him find his gun. Yes, exactly.

36:58Josh Larsen:That's another one of the prayers. Also, it's interesting that the frogs precipitate Earl's death. That's kind of what they lead up to. We've been anticipating it the whole film, really. But this is when it arrives and death, another maybe, can be seen definitive act of God. So I think the bottom line is, you know, for me, the frogs are they're sort of like man's songs that are sprinkled throughout. It's just another way to connect these characters in an exact moment with a singular experience, an absolutely singular experience.

37:28Adam Kempenaar:Yeah, and a singular unexplainable experience, which the whole movie is predicated on those types of experiences and this idea that something unbelievable, something miraculous can happen. And not only can it happen, it does happen. It happens to people every day. And I think one of the reasons I was so set up for it beyond the fact that I knew it was coming is the prologue, which was my big surprise. I had completely forgotten. Me too. Had completely forgotten about that opening sequence in the narration by Ricky Jay, who does appear in the film as kind of the executive producer or one of the producers of the game show.

38:07Adam Kempenaar:And it absolutely sets the table for everything that unfolds. It says what you're about to watch defies rationality. It defies reason. But sometimes so does life. So buckle up. And so when you get frogs falling from the sky at the end of the movie, it's almost like we knew it was going to happen.

38:24Josh Larsen:Yeah, I think that's fair. But here we're getting to some of my critiques that I am going to say still stand. And it has to do with maybe the first 20 minutes of this film. Sam, I believe, used the phrase formal mastery in describing his revisit. And I just don't think I think there are moments of that, but I don't think it's consistent throughout the film. And I don't think it has that formal mastery in these first 20 minutes. I admire its brio. And maybe in 1999, like that's I just never recovered from this sort of onslaught we get at the beginning.

38:55Adam Kempenaar:Like I said, it could be overwhelming. Yes.

38:57Josh Larsen:I can see that. That's how I would describe the experience. First, we do get the narrated prologue that you're talking about. So it whips us through these historical incidents of coincidence. The first one shot like a silent movie, right, with the aspect ratio, black and white, everything. And it's about a man being murdered in the neighborhood of Greenberry Hill by three men named Greenberry. And Hill. And Hill. Then we move to this story of a woman who fires a gun at her husband only to miss, shoot her son, who had just jumped to his death. from the roof of their building that was passing by their window.

39:26Josh Larsen:And had loaded the gun. Yes. Okay. So this is like coming fast and furious past us. You forgot Patton Oswalt, too. Yeah, the scuba diver. The scuba diving aficionado. A surprise. Totally forgot about Patton Oswalt. Go ahead. What was his experience?

39:40Adam Kempenaar:Well, he likes to scuba dive, and he ends up getting picked up in one of those planes, I don't know the proper name, that picks water up to dump it on forest fires, and he got picked up with the water and dropped in a tree and died. And then, of course, the other coincidence is that he actually had had an encounter, a kind of violent altercation or a skirmish with the guy who ultimately was flying the plane at his blackjack table where he's a dealer a week or two prior or a few days prior.

40:09Josh Larsen:And then that pilot upon learning what happened kills himself. Okay. So which brings me to, I admire the Brio again, but there's a sense of self-satisfaction to all of these sequences here that I still find a little off-putting. And there's a flippancy and a glibness to it as well, especially when you think about the actual violence being recounted in these stories. So there's that element. That's our first maybe eight minutes or whatever. Then we get this manic sequence introducing all of these characters, all of these people we've been talking about. And the filmmaking itself is just too much here.

40:43Josh Larsen:I still stick to that. It's like he's coming into his powers, but is not fully in control of them. Think about the way I would describe it. It's like Peter Parker going out to web sling for the first time. Right. We've seen those scenes and how many Spider-Man movies and you're odd at what he's doing and experiencing. But every once in a while he hits a wall and he's going to have to get up and try again. And this is where the camera pushes really did start to bother me. I think half of the shots as we meet each of these characters, again, maybe it's to develop consistency to connect them. But it pushes right in at a dramatic moment on the central figure.

41:22Josh Larsen:I also think there's an over-reliance on the first Amy Mann song we hear, one, to create a sense of montage that otherwise isn't really there in the actual filmmaking. If you look on it, we get those repeated push-ins, but the song is doing most of the work to create a montage out of this. So, again, like you're wowed at what's being attempted here and maybe that's enough for most people. It was enough. It was enough for me. For you. But I think this movie, for me, Magnolia gets really good once it settles down and stops trying to prove itself. And I think that happens eventually once we've met those other characters.

41:58Josh Larsen:We'll get like that showy single take through the TV production studio that maybe we didn't need to see every floor or room in the entire building. Impressively done. Impressively staged. But when Magnolia settles down, that's when it's closer to a masterwork. Hey, come here. Come here.

42:19Phil, I'm going to try to talk. Okay. And I'm trying to say something, something.

42:29Adam Kempenaar:Okay. Do you know Lily?

42:33Josh Larsen:Phil, do you know her? No. Lily? No, I don't. Oh, she's my love, my life, love of it. Access to the full Film Spotting Archive going back to 2005 is one of the benefits of joining the Film Spotting family. Plus, you're going to get bonus shows, a weekly newsletter, early access to events and more. So if you're interested, please do join and you can do that at filmspottingfamily.com.

43:01Adam Kempenaar:This conversation can serve no purpose anymore. Goodbye.

43:21Adam Kempenaar:Film Spotting is listener supported. Join the Film Spotting family at filmspottingfamily.com and get access to ad-free episodes, monthly bonus shows, our weekly newsletter, and for the first time all in one place, the entire Film Spotting archive going back to 2005. That's at filmspottingfamily.com.

44:06Adam Kempenaar:collaborators, and friends, including director Jonathan Kreisel, the mayor himself, Kyle McLaughlin, legendary musician Amy Mann, and many more. Kyle is going for it here. You fully improvised, not just words, but a song. Well, I thought you were all going to write a song. I remember you thinking that.

44:23Josh Larsen:Listen to Podlandia, AAO Rewatch on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

44:31Adam Kempenaar:What's up, fam? It's sports journalist Ari Chambers. Hey, what's up, y 'all? It's your girl, Sam J. And we're the hosts of Everyone Watches Women's Sports, a new podcast from Together. We're breaking down the biggest headlines, the viral moments, and the stories everyone's talking about across women's sports. From game-changing performances to culture-shifting conversations, we'll give you our takes, our debates, and a few laughs along the way. Because everyone watches women's sports. Listen to Everyone Watches Women's Sports on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

45:01Adam Kempenaar:This is Chelsea Handler from Dear Chelsea. Every week, the news gets worse, the world gets crazier, and Yamanika is here to tell whoever's responsible, you're the problem. Do you know I just found out who Sidney Sweeney was? If he got a bunch of women, then I should have a bunch of men. Do better or do less so I don't have to do so much. I'm Yamanika, and I'm out. Listen to You're the Problem with Yamanika on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. on Raiders of the Lost podcast we explore cinema like no one else including huge interviews with stars like Ryan Gosling on Project Hail Mary it was like the Jaws shark didn't always work came with its own problems that's what made it great the cast of Obsession on set there was so much magic happening with each scene we were putting together deep dives into classics like 2001 A Space Odyssey or Fight Club, plus weekly episodes on all industry news.

45:59Adam Kempenaar:Listen to Raiders of the Lost podcast on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. And for more, follow at Raiders of the Lost podcast and at TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok.

From the publisher

With PTA's ONE BATTLE AFTER ANOTHER coming to theaters this weekend, we're sharing Adam and Josh's 9 From '99 ⁠ review of the director's operatic third film, MAGNOLIA.

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