Marty Supreme Review, Avatar: Fire & Ash, Dead Man’s Wire, Voice of Hind Rajab (#1047)

30:13And that's enough. Hey, he sold me in that moment. I was like, maybe he is a vampire. Like he could be, that might be unlocking a lot of things here. Exactly. Yeah, in terms of the formal elements to bringing up the production design and the cinematography as well. The first time I saw this, it was a screener. And our friend Scott Tobias, I was texting with him that day, that morning. And I mentioned to him that I was going to see Marty Supreme later that day. And I didn't understand why he said this, but I was able to put it together, especially later after seeing it. He said, play it loud. I think he put it in all caps, play it loud.

30:55Right. So then I got it that this is this is a bombastic film in every way, but including with the sound design. Well, I got I got to see it the second time in the theater. I got to see it at film scene in Iowa City. And Sophie, our PA, my daughter, she works at film scene and she says that they have been getting killed with complaints from some of the old clientele who have been coming out in droves saying, you have to turn it down. Too loud. Interesting. And of course, they can't turn it down. That's the way this movie is calibrated. It is just calibrated at that volume. And for me, especially seeing it in the theater and really feeling it, that propulsiveness that we've talked about, but getting the volume on full blast for those anachronistic needle drops and that Daniel Lopatin score.

31:51What a treat. What a treat that was. And here again, I couldn't agree more with Allison that with this focus that Safdie is bringing to the casting with authenticity, there's nothing overly reverential or nostalgic in the visual approach as well. And I think part of that is how reliant it is in its construction on medium close-ups and close-ups. And this is something we see in Uncut Gems too, right? That's part of the jittery, the handheld approach that makes it feel really claustrophobic. There's not a lot of extra room in the frame when it's that close to the characters and you feel like you're that close to the characters.

32:31But that's not what's happening here. This movie doesn't feel the same as Uncut Gems feels. And thank God. I think it does feel very different. But it never is about showcasing the location. It's never about wasting time with establishing shots. It isn't about making you dizzy, like I said, with Uncut Gems. But I do think that Safdie and Kanji are almost always, they're tracking characters and they're showing characters with these tight shots. And it does create urgency. It creates intimacy with the characters. I think it's another reason why we're talking about the textures that all these characters bring and the layers of the performances.

33:12Because we see all the nuances. We see the nuances in their faces, in their emotions, in their reactions. And when do we widen out? When we widen out, like with great dance numbers, it's with the ping pong scenes where we see the full physicality on display. That's when he brings the camera fully out so we can see the table, we can see the bodies in motion. And that's remarkable as well. Can we go back to the needle drops? I like them. Because I'm not a fan. Not a fan, I got to say. And this isn't because they're anachronistic or that I'm opposed to needle drops in general. I just found it to be somewhat tied to a pattern, a little bit related to what I was talking about with Chalamet's performance.

33:59And again, perhaps unfairly having the campaign in my mind, an insistence that for me was a little separate from the propulsion of the film. They're, they're related, but to me, there were two separate things where the movie was insisting on its own intensity at times where uncut gems felt like that was just in the air where you breathe the, you just breathe the chaos in uncut gems. you felt the construction of the chaos just a tad more here. I do think it's a, it's a, as I said at the top, it's a remarkable distinct quality of the film. And perhaps this is just an unfair comparison, uncut gems, but the needle drops are connected to this.

34:47It just felt like it's trying a little bit hard. The recurring bit with the dog, there's like maybe one scene with the dog where I'm like, we, we, we've got it. We know we're already quite distressed about the dog. We don't need another one. And, and I feel like separate from the music. Is that what you're saying? It's separate from the music, but it's the same insistence to me. Like there's an insistence to Chalamet's performance. There's an insistence to the dog scene. And there's, there's an insistence to like, I'm insisting this needle drop in here. Um, that is maybe just push it. It just, the movie wants to impress us as much as Marty wants to impress us.

35:28And a little bit of space between those two things, I think would have gone a long way. I think I didn't feel that, especially because from the moment we got Forever Young in that credit sequence and the entire fertilization moment, if you will, which actually does, someone reminded me of this, a colleague that I was texting with reminded me that uncut gems, I'd forgotten this opens with something similar with the colonoscopy. Right. So I was, I was so on board from that moment that, that those never felt those needle drops to me somehow never felt obtrusive. Now it's funny that you bring up the dog because this transitions nicely into something I did want to bring up in terms of just kind of what for me, what the film's all about and the experience I had the second time and why I'm so why I'm actually so much on board with it more the second time, even though I really liked it the first time.

36:28And one of the one of the revelations I suppose I had is I'm watching this film and I realize, OK, this film really is two halves. It it is a movie that's about Marty up through the British Open with that that first match that he has with with endo the the japanese table tennis player and then it's it's really it's post british open and the second half is where it really feels like a safety film right that's that's where allison talked about marty is a chaos addict that's that's all there marty getting getting himself into deeper and deeper trouble everything seems to be just going off the rails getting progressively crazier.

37:13I recognize that this is what made it distinct. In the moment I was watching it the first time, I was feeling, well, this is that Safdie insensibility. I like that this is essentially a sports movie, but they're doing something, he's doing something so dramatically weird and different with it. But I have to be honest, I found it unwieldy like you, Josh, the hustle at the bowling alley. You're like, do am I really going to have to sit through this entire like we know how this is going to end. This is feeling a little long. How how long is this going to take to play out the stuff with the dog? We're back at the house now with the dog.

37:54I I got I got the excess. I understood it intellectually. My attention was was waning. But where the second viewing was clarifying was that structure. What's the structure of Marty Supreme? It's actually a pretty conventional sports movie in this respect anyway. It's an athlete trying to avenge an earlier loss to a rival. Act one, he loses. Act two is the buildup to the rematch and the rematch itself. And I'll leave it at that. Where the hero trains and through hard work and grit and determination, hopefully, usually in sports movies, the hero wins. except here. This is the brilliance of the screenplay here and what Safdie and Ronald Bronstein are bringing to the table, except here, the training is about 30 seconds of actual ping pong practice and 90 minutes of hard work and grit and determination just to get the money to buy the plane ticket to travel to get to the rematch.

39:00It's kind of incredible when you think about it. And so the epiphany for me, and I'm open to anyone quibbling with this, I'm quibbling with Allison's take on the film and others who might be associating Marty too closely with Howard Ratner in Uncut Gems. I don't think Marty is addicted to chaos. I don't think he is courting chaos. I think he is more comfortable with it than a lot of us are. He sure seems to find it. I don't think he's afraid of it, but he isn't just hustling for the sake of hustling. He is hustling with purpose because he has a purpose. There's even a line at one point in the movie, He says, everything in my life's falling apart, but I'm going to figure it out.

39:51In the second half, he says that someone who's courting disaster, courting chaos doesn't say everything in my life's falling apart. And what does he say to Rachel? I have a purpose. If you think that it's some kind of blessing, it's not. It means I have an obligation to see a very specific thing through. And so maybe I still didn't necessarily need Josh the second the second trip with the dog. But what I can tell you is, is that watching it again and having that click into place and realize that every single thing that happens in the second act, it's not just an introduction of a new example of chaos.

40:27yet again Marty's spinning out of control it's actually just step by step him doing everything he can do the thing that's directly in front of him to earn enough money to get a plane ticket to go to Tokyo that's it he's singularly focused on only that objective once I realize that that he's just too broke to go to Tokyo and if he can't compete then he can't fulfill his purpose. I had a different experience with the film, with the second half of the film, certainly. And it didn't feel like excessive storytelling to me. It actually felt like pretty efficient storytelling. Yeah. This raises a question that we can't, it's a crucial question, but we can't really know the answer to until we see the next movie and we find out what Marty does next, because I think I agree that he's not addicted to chaos.

41:28He's not seeking new forms of chaos. He definitely has a goal. Um, but what I do wonder, you know, if you consider Marty to be like a narcissistic personality, and I don't know that we know for sure enough to say that, but there's hints that it's possible, right? There's plenty of evidence. So for someone like that, is it really the goal or is it that having a goal reshapes the world and everyone around them to be about their needs? And I think that's different both from what Allison was talking about in terms of pursuing chaos and if I'm hearing you correctly, different from what you're talking about.

42:11Well, it's certainly closer to what I'm talking about. Yeah, but if I'm hearing you, it's similar to what I read the movie as wanting is like his methods may be unhealthy, but his purpose is in a way noble. And by achieving it, he will have attained something valuable. and uh i wonder based on the character traits we see if i had to put money on it it's that the next day no matter what's happened to him in the final scene marty will have a new goal that will require everyone to once again and i mean the new people now to orbit themselves around his next goal That's my instinct from what I've seen in terms of his behavior and how he's treated people throughout this film And so that's why I think if you do see marty supreme as a redemption story of some way, it doesn't ring true to me I don't know that's how we're supposed to see it But I it's more difficult for me to see it that way because i'm a little suspicious of this goal Really giving him the meaning he expects it to Okay.

43:36Does that make sense?

44:05And I know that there's discussion out there about Marty as a character and there's I find the hand wringing, the moralizing about characters in movies to be a bit much. You know, I mean, when did we start to expect art to be so reassuring and so comforting as opposed to something that that is is challenging and our characters to be complicated? That's the point is that they should be complicated and they're not real. In this case, he's certainly not real, whether or not he's based in some way loosely on a real person. So we get to observe and contemplate and think about these things and have these kind of moral and ethical provocations because of the character.

44:51So the the wanting to dismiss Marty that some some people I know want to do and dismiss the movie because they don't like Marty and his behavior. I I simply don't understand. And when I say I'm going to soften my read of Marty a little bit, I don't mean I want to make him be a better a better person. I don't care whether or not for this conversation he's a good person or a bad person. I don't like the binary nature of those terms. What I think the movie, in terms of its complexity, is getting at, though, through Marty and through his ambition and through this sense of purpose is I think all of the things that build his identity matter.

45:44I think his class matters. I think his Jewishness matters. And there's a reason why that comes up in multiple ways in the film and multiple times in the film. Everything he does in the movie, as I read it, no matter how misguided it is, and again, this doesn't justify everything he does, but everything he does as he sees it is in service of his obligation. And so what makes Marty Supreme great to me is that Safdie transforms a sports saga into a biting portrait of ambition, class, and identity. It's a relentless odyssey of purpose and survival where every hustle feels like a claim to value in a world that's eager to deny it.

46:35Like not just claim to greatness, which he is aspiring to, but by aspiring to greatness, he's just he's just claiming that he has value. I think Marty recognizes the myth of the American dream, or he understands that as an outsider, that the American dream doesn't exist, that the notion that is open to everybody and it's just there for the taking. if you work hard is, in fact, that myth. And that the outsider is what he is and what everybody is constantly looking to relegate him to. And the only way for him to not be that outsider and get what he wants and take what he wants is to not play by those rules.

47:20Yeah, find a shortcut. Take whatever shortcut he can. And I think those are some of the larger questions that the movie opens up for me. Yeah, which are all interesting and totally agree with you about, you know, yes, we should be able to watch movies featuring characters, main characters who we disapprove of. And that can still be interesting and informative. And I think the more nuanced conversation, again, we keep saying this, but maybe that will come up in our spoiler talk, is how successful do we think Marty Supreme is at doing that compared to other movies I had in the back of my head from the 1970s, the great anti-hero performances.

48:08Last year, we had occasion to consider a couple of these, Gene Hackman in Scarecrow or Jack Nicholson in The Last Detail. And what the movie's attitudes were towards those characters in relationship to the audience's expectations and the willingness to subvert those or to comfort the audience. that's where I saw distinction a little bit between Marty Supreme and some of those 70s movies. And man, the people who are disturbed by Marty Supreme because it features someone who makes you uncomfortable, I don't know what they'd do if they watched some of those 70s movies with Hackman and Nicholson, right?

48:51It would blow their minds. I think you're right. Whether this ends up being part of a qualitative judgment in your analysis of this film or not, all you have to do is, well, first, watch this film, I would say. Watch Uncut Gems as well. But also, if you want, read anything either Safdie Brother has said about Howard Ratner or what they said to me in my interview with them on this show, which we dropped into the feed earlier this week, or what Josh Safdie has said about this character. they they love these men they they genuinely that doesn't mean they approve of every choice they make that's something different but they love these men in a way that i think is very different from the types of characters you're talking about and the relationship those directors those writers and directors probably probably had with with the figures you're mentioning Maybe.

49:51And if that's the case, maybe that's the distinction I'm picking up. And yeah, the end result, maybe I prefer one over the other. Yeah, I think there's romance here. I think there's a romanticization, if I said that correctly, of a romanticizing of characters like Howard Ratner and Marty Supreme that there is not. more Marty than Howard more Marty than Howard maybe more Marty than Howard but we as viewers may romanticize someone like B.A. in The Last Detail or R.P. McMurphy in One Fleur of the Cuckoo's S more perhaps than the filmmakers themselves offer us on screen I think that's a fair distinction we will stop there with Marty Supreme for now, Marty Supreme is playing in wide release if you have seen it and agree or disagree with our takes, you can email us feedback at filmspotting.net.

50:47We may share some of that feedback on a future show.

50:55And it's only a matter of time before I'm staring at you from the cover of a Wheaties box. You think it's that simple? Yeah, I do.

51:10Adam, you know, when we like to talk about Regal Unlimited, our sponsor, this is the all-you-can-watch movie subscription pass, we like to mention the movies that have to be seen in theaters. You can take advantage of a pass like this. And I don't know that there's a movie that demanded to be seen in theaters more from 2025 still playing now than avatar fire and ash that's where i saw it on the big screen to be enveloped in pandora where yes we're still trying to get you visa or passport access to but i got in i loved what i saw really good film and needed that giant screen if you want to have the pandora avatar fire and ash experience on a big screen how would you like to have it for free?

51:59That would be possible with Regal Unlimited. As I said, this is Regal's movie subscription pass that does pay for itself in just two visits. And right now, Regal is offering film spotting listeners endless movies for less. If you sign up for Regal Unlimited using code FILMSPOT25, you're going to get 10 % off a three-month subscription. Regal Unlimited is the only truly limitless movie subscription pass. You can see any standard 2D movie anytime. There are no blackout dates. There are no restrictions. And with Regal Unlimited, you won't just save money on tickets. You're going to save on snacks.

52:37Members get 10 % off all non-alcoholic concessions. Sign up now in the Regal app or use the link in the description and use code FILMSPOT25 to receive your discount.

52:56And we just wrapped up, I think, at least a half hour of spoiler talk on Marty Supreme. We have very different takes. Let's just say that on maybe the film, maybe the film as a whole, we might have discovered at the end of that conversation. It turns out it's pretty nuanced and might just be a matter of semantics, but we still talked about it for 30 minutes plus. And all of that is going to be in the Film Spotting family member feed, a special offering for our family members who we want to take a moment to thank because they are crucial support in allowing us to do this show. We want to thank one particular Family Plus member, we should say, and that is Grant Averitt in Lexington, Kentucky.

53:37Grant is on Letterboxd, as so many of us are. If you want to follow Grant there, look for Grant692. Now, filling out our questionnaire, Grant wrote this, a friend recommended film spotting to me in 2012 or so, and then I listened to Adam and Michael Phillips. Review It Follows and their top five 21st century horror movies, It Got Me Hooked. A review we got wrong for Grant, Everything, Marx Brothers, Duck Soup is one of the greatest and funniest comedies of all time. I think Grant has Michael's support on that, right, Adam? Yes, I'm pretty sure that he does. Michael holds that against us. Grant also shared a movie that he credits with becoming a cinephile, Casablanca.

54:20I watched it at a summer camp during the summer before my senior year of high school, and it blew my mind. I've seen hundreds and hundreds of films since, but none of them have been better. Good timing. I just watched last night in preparation for our upcoming Diane Keaton tribute. I just watched Play It Again, Sam. And of course, that whole film is really about, in some ways, Casablanca. It opens with it opens with like seven minutes, the ending of that movie and and the ending of Played Again, Sam steals directly from it as well. So have that film very much in mind. And guess what? Good movie.

54:59Casablanca. Josh, not sure if you were. I like it, too. I'm a fan. OK, yeah, we do thank Grant for being a family member and for all of his years of listening. It does come with perks being a family member. You get to listen early and ad free. You get the weekly newsletter. You get exclusive opportunities like being part of the FilmSpotting family discord. And yes, you do get monthly bonus shows or just monthly or regular bonus content. You might get consistent spoiler talk like that Marty Supreme spoiler talk Josh was mentioning. We're not exactly sure as we are recording in this moment. I could do a live update, but the voting has not ended yet, Josh, as we're recording.

55:40Give me a live update. This is always exciting. Ooh. I mean, this is the thing. It's so close. So family members get to vote. We gave them three options. January bonus is we were wrong once. So we take a movie that at least one of us was probably wrong about. The consensus is this is a great movie. One of us, maybe on the show, maybe not on the show, had a different opinion about. And the options we came up with were Boogie Nights, Bringing Up Baby, and Collateral. Real quick, I'm the naysayer on Collateral. We have never talked about it on the show. Bringing Up Baby, Sam and I are the naysayers on that.

56:25I don't know how you feel about it, Josh. You can chime in. But that was part of our Screwball Comedies Marathon back in like 2005 or 2006. And Sam and I somehow didn't go for that Howard Hawks classic at all. That's hard to believe for some reason, especially I feel on Sam's part, but I think I was cool on bringing up baby when I first saw it. I don't know that I actively, and I checked my website. I don't have a written review there. I don't know that I actively disliked it, but I think I was definitely lower, certainly than those who considered a screwball classic. And then Boogie Nights, maybe a little bit of a weird choice, but January, it's still one battle after another time.

57:06And we are going to give some time to one battle after another as a sacred cow review. We have that coming up. And maybe that was on producer Sam's mind when he suggested a Boogie Nights conversation. I love Boogie Nights. That's in my top five Paul Thomas Anderson films. But Josh, you have it at number eight on your list and Sam has it at number nine. So to be clear, I don't think either of you are saying Boogie Nights is a bad film. you do have it ranked very low. Yeah. And I think, you know, my original star rating was like three out of four when most PTAs are generally like three and a half or higher for me.

57:47So yeah, lower tier, perhaps I'm wrong. And it is as good as his best. If that's where listeners vote, we'll get a chance to consider that. So the live update again, as we are taping, the polls are still open for about nine more hours. So we'll see where it shakes out. but Boogie Nights is in the lead, but only by two votes over bringing up two votes over which votes bringing up baby is in second. Yeah. Okay. I think, I think collateral is not, not going to be in contention. It's going to be Boogie versus baby. All right. So you have that to look forward to. If you are a family member, a conversation about one of those films.

58:26And if you are potentially looking to become a film spotting family member, we have a promo code for you through January 31st. You can take 20 % off a film spotting family membership. Any film spotting family membership, just use the promo code. Josh, you'll like this one. Supreme use promo code Supreme for 20 % off film spotting family.com is where you can help us out. And another way you can help us out, take a minute, give us a rating or a review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Every review or rating does help us reach new listeners. This is the only pure thing in this world. The fire came from the mountain and burnt our forest.

59:17My people cried for help, but Ava did not come. Such a bummer, Josh. Turns out my passport to Pandora has been revoked. Couldn't take the trip, but you've taken all three trips enthusiastically, and you have a report from James Cameron's CGI playground. I would love to hear whether or not Avatar fire and ash.

1:00:18was enjoyable for you. fire and ash gives Adam and you're never going to believe it. Okay. Compelling characters. I have never praised, I have never praised any of these movies for compelling characters, but I think what helps is that the way of water dumped on us a whole bunch of new characters here. We now know who they are, which helps. And I think it's more in the screenplay as well. that is now giving us time to meet these characters as fully realized individuals. And Cameron is writing here with Rick Jaffa and Amanda Silver. They also did Way of Water, but they were also instrumental in the Planet of the Apes films that we both have appreciated as screenwriters.

1:01:09And I don't think you felt their hand in Way of Water as much as you do here. The result for me is that we still have this wide-scale conflict, right, between the invading humans and the indigenous Navi on Pandora. This is not going to convince you to see this or the next one, Adam. That conflict is still unfolding at the end of this three and a half hour movie. Okay. But what's crucial here and that I did appreciate and actually liked quite a bit. This one is more about what the conflict means for individual characters and their evolving understanding of themselves. And this is really across the board for a number of characters.

1:01:45I'm just going to highlight two in the sake of our own time. But one is Nateri, who we've met since the beginning. This is Zoe Saldana playing the Navi who falls in love with Sam Worthington's Marine in the first film. The Marine, Jake Sully, becomes, is transformed into Navi. They have this relationship in Weight of Water. They have kids. And now they're a couple who's been together and they have these growing children. And Nateri has come to regret in this film, her involvement with humans. And the performance is ferocious and hissing. She gets lines like, I hate their pink little hands. And what's interesting here is that they have, you know, in our terms, we would say biracial kids, essentially.

1:02:30And these two have a conversation about this and Natiri's grief over what has been lost in Way of Water from her son. It's real, it's palpable. You understand, again, how this conflict has affected her, how it's changed her, and the anger she has. The performance is so crucial to that. And the animation of the faces, I think there's even an advancement in this movie that helps that to register. All right. The other character I'll talk about is a new one, Varang, played by Una Chaplin, who is new to the series, part witch and part warrior. Varang leads this Navi clan. They're somewhat like pirates.

1:03:11She stalks the screen in this movie as if everything on the screen is potential prey. It's an incredible physical performance. But what's also interesting is that Varang has this theologically compelling background. I know I'm going to lose you here, Adam. Hang on. Hang on. Awa. Do you remember Awa, the goddess figure of Pandora? Okay. Supposed to keep everything, everything in unity, um, is, is what Awa is supposed to do. All right. So Varang, this new character, her clan, a volcano wiped, almost wiped them all out. Before that, she tells us this in a story at one point, she had prayed to Awa, save us, rescue us, wasn't rescued.

1:03:53So she has decided to defy this goddess and embrace the fire of the volcano and just became basically this violent leader of this pirate clan. She falls in with the invading humans. So she colludes because there's promise of weapons and it's a compelling character rooted in a, you know, the great villains need good reasons for their villainy and Varang has that. Now, I'll say before we get out of here that, of course, there have always been problems with Avatar in this equation it's making between the Navi and indigenous people on Earth, right? And how awkward that is. Is Cameron appropriating here?

1:04:36Is he honoring? And Varang is kind of like a flashpoint for that because terrible decision to have her clan, these pirates that she leads, like hoot and holler, like you're watching some 50s Western and they're the quote unquote savages. You know, what, why, why does the movie do that? Completely unnecessary. The same time, Varang has this interesting backstory. So she's definitely a flashpoint. And I want to point people to one review that's just obliterating fire and ash on this point in terms of the representation. And that's Walter Chow, who I've gotten to know for my time out in Denver, Boulder area.

1:05:14And I'll link to this in the show notes, but he just like, yeah, takes a flamethrower like Varang likes to the movie for some of these notions. So I do want to acknowledge that. And whenever this comes up, I think there's a more nuanced portrayal of her in the movie, but I always cede the point to those who have personal background at stake when these issues are raised. And I think Walter does make some interesting points to consider. So again, we'll link to that. I, however, I'm a fan of Fire and Ash. I think it's in the area of character and narrative, a significant advancement and honestly gives me hope for the series.

1:05:54If we do indeed get more of these. Thoughtful as always insightful. I don't know if it's convincing enough, Josh to get me. There's, there's going to be another one. I knew that was another one. I don't know. Don't they always say they have to see how much money it makes and this thing's already bringing in like, you know, millions, possibly billions. So likely there is. Yeah. I know this is the joke about this movie. At least it seems to be on social media that no one actually knows anybody who loves these movies, who really loves these movies. Like who are the people that are, that are just dying to see Avatar.

1:06:30And yet the box office proves that these movies are reliable and people are obviously excited about them. And you think that's justified at least with fire and ash. yeah and i'll say too you know to point to point to another conversation pop culture happy hour i'm sorry it was a guest critic i'm not pulling their name right now but they they're one of those people like they i believe they said they watch way to water like three or four times a year and avatar itself so so they're yeah these you know these movies it seems like the most obvious thing in the world to say but yes they've struck a chord okay what do you hear in indian Annapolis.

1:07:12It is Tuesday, February 8th. I'm DJ Fred Temple. I thank you for listening. Mr. Temple, sir, you have a caller? I have dinner in 30 minutes is what I have. That Tony Kuritsis fellow's on the line and he's asking to speak to you? The guy with the shotgun in the man's neck? You should open with that shit, James. Dead Man's Wire is the latest from Gus Van Zandt. It's the Milk and Goodwill hunting directors first since 2018's Don't Worry, He Won't Get Far on Foot. This is based on the 1977 true story of a man who wired himself with the explosive Dead Man's Wire of the title and kidnaps the mortgage banker who did him wrong.

1:07:53Bill Skarsgård and Dacre Montgomery star along with Al Pacino and Coleman Domingo. It opens in limited release this weekend. Adam, does Van still have the filmmaking chops. Yeah, it's good to see him back. He's crafted a tense, slyly funny caper anchored by a nervy performance from Skarsgård that flips the Dog Day Afternoon script. What if Sonny had a plan? One of the pleasures of watching Dead Man's Wire isn't just thinking about the movie in relation to Dog Day Afternoon. Both are mid-70s set crime movies that involve banks, hostages, and the hostage takers become folk heroes of sorts. But it's considering whether this folk hero, Tony Kiritsis, saw Dog Day Afternoon and was possibly even influenced by it.

1:08:53The movie came out in September 1975, and this event occurs in February 1977. 77. Tony even walks into the bank. As far as I know, as I recall, the movie never directly references this movie, never directly references dog day, but he even walks into the bank carrying one of those long florist boxes, just like sunny, except it turns out it's a bit of a surprise. There's no, there's no absurd tap dance with the shotgun. And it turns out there's not even a shotgun in it. There's a blueprint for this rig. He's actually got the gun on him, but there's There's a blueprint for this rig that he's created, that dead man's wire, to keep his hostage.

1:09:34And it's this guy Dick, who is played by Dacre Montgomery. Just in case anything were to happen that might separate him, it's ingenious, right? If any cop comes up, any sudden movements of any kind, Dick is going to get blown away. And Tony's not exactly cool, but, you know, he's a bit on edge, but he has thought every aspect of this through. He's rehearsed it. He's in control, unlike Sonny. Even when something goes wrong, the opening of the film is him showing up in his car. And when he turns the ignition, Josh, the key breaks off in the ignition and he can't restart his car. The plan was to leave in his car, but there's no panic, just kind of bemusement.

1:10:21He adapts. He carries on. The cherry on top of it all, you said his name, is the casting of Al Pacino as Dick's father in the movie. And he's the man Tony actually has the biggest beef with. He's the guy Tony actually intended to take hostage that day, ended up taking his son instead because the dad was on vacation. Another big difference here is that Sonny is an accidental rager against the machine. His intentions are personal, not political. For Tony, the personal is political. His outrage is theater. And Van Zandt clearly wants to relate his situation to economic conditions today and for us to sympathize with him as a victim of this mortgage company, as a victim of these sinister forces that a little guy like him simply can't combat.

1:11:16And this is his opportunity to take back some of the power, which is what, of course, gets some of that admiration and affection from the public and really gets the public on his side. now tony a lot of worried folk out here this is unbelievable okay dad if you wanted to take a moment to apologize i think it would expedite this release process i'm not going to admit guilt to something i didn't do just apologize for what you did just apologize no tony no stay strong richard hello what's true and what's fiction and all of this i i don't know i've picked a little bit here and there. I know that I liked Skarsgård's skittishness verging on derangement, but balanced by, I mean, you have to be a little bit deranged to do this, right?

1:12:06But balanced by rationality and focused indignation. And when he needs it, I mentioned the humor, self-effacing humor and charm. And you have to watch the way he walks in this movie. I said he was edgy. He walks always just a bit slouched forward, like he's consistently being pressed down upon. And then you've got Coleman Domingo, who's a prominent Indianapolis radio DJ named Fred Temple, real, real guy, like all of these, these guys are, and Tony respects him and confides in him. And the movie really takes advantage of Domingo's voice, his great voice and his natural charisma. And that character really adds to the revolutionary spirit of the movie.

1:12:51I wish there was more with that character, Josh. And I think it would have served that revolution aspect of the film, the political aspect of the film, a little bit better because he really just becomes an extension of the FBI and the police in helping them against Tony. And not that I'm suggesting, I think that character should be helping Tony, but there's never any sense really of conflict. Like he's helping the man in this. And I think it would have been interesting to sense a little bit of that antipathy, especially when everybody else in the public feels like Tony is the righteous one in this case.

1:13:32And Dacre Montgomery is someone I didn't recognize as Dick Hall. I guess he was a Power Ranger at one point. He was in Stranger Things for like five years. You're going to be seeing a lot more of Dacre Montgomery. He brings some real depth to this privileged character. And you understand that he has a little bit more in common with Tony than Tony may want to believe, than he may want to believe. And he's just such an interesting counter to Tony because Tony is physically, he's such a fast talker, but he is, again, that jittery kind of mover. and because of the nature of how he's confined, everything about Montgomery has to be internalized and completely still and quiet.

1:14:17And so watching those two play off each other is one of the enjoyable aspects of this movie. And I think it's fun to see Van Zandt in his bag here a little bit, not just with the effective use of the handheld camera, but he does incorporate real footage or footage that's made to look like real TV news footage. I'm guessing there's a little bit of both. I don't know for sure. Like there's one scene early on when he's walking with Dick and the police are surrounding them, but there's nothing they can really do. They're walking to Dick's car because, of course, he can't get in his car. And a car, just a normal citizen is driving a car.

1:14:53They come around a corner. And of course, they come upon this incredible scene and they come around and they go off into the into the side into a snowbank. And that footage then cuts in that moment to footage, TV news style footage of that happening. And it looks exact as if it's matching perfectly. And I don't think it adds verisimilitude, though it does. But I don't think the purpose of it is that so much as it just kind of adds to the chaos of the moment without the movie ever really feeling like a sensory assault. And there is one, I did look this up to confirm this wasn't an invention, and it's kind of incredible, Josh.

1:15:37There's a magical coincidence that happened here in real life that Van Zandt exploits in the movie and the screenwriter Austin Kolodny exploits. here when life and art collide, it required no extra manufacturing, just a little modulating maybe. He insists, I won't go into too many details, but at one point, Tony insists that he has to have a press conference and it has to go on TV nationally. And to accommodate that, they cut into the TV stations, cut into the people's choice awards. And this is 1977. And they actually do cut into the people's choice awards, right. As John Wayne is accepting a people's choice award for favorite actor.

1:16:26And this is, this is eight years after true grit. He's still, he's done some movies. He's done the shoot us recently, but this is, this is John Wayne at the, at the tail end of his career. And this is kind of a tribute to him. And They're even playing. We see the montage of of him. The montage is him entirely just shooting people, you know, mostly Native Americans, but just entirely shooting people. And that that moment in that montage, it it really does encapsulate something that the movie is getting at in terms of this question of who who are our heroes? Who are the real heroes? Who are our fake heroes?

1:17:04What's real violence and what's fake violence? Where do these lines kind of start to blur? And what are we willing to accept? What are we not willing to accept? I don't have answers to those questions. Those are some of the questions that the movie provokes with sequences like that. So I enjoyed Dead Man's Wire. I'm so glad to hear it. This is just in that you made time for it and are giving it some attention. It's just part of the craziness of this year end that we have a filmmaker like Vincent. this is happening with the new Jim Jarmusch movie. I think just this torrent of releases at the end of the year from huge names in filmmaking.

1:17:45So yeah, good to hear that Van Sant is out there still doing important work. Dead Man's Wire is currently playing in limited release. Next week will be our year-end wrap party, the studio edition. Those opening scenes, funniest scenes, music moment, and more. We remind you to send your picks, video or audio feedback at filmspotting.net. We will also announce the 2025 Golden Brick winner, five finalists, Josh, and you as the listener, not only get a vote, you are one of four votes that determines that winner, but we award the listener's choice. So it's an important vote. Please do go to filmspotting.net slash bricks and vote now for The Brick.

1:18:33And here's the thing you especially need to know. We did not give you much time, but, you know, this is just how it worked. We kind of, we had a cutoff in the past of around Thanksgiving, but then that forced us to leave off some titles that we thought really were deserving of a nomination. And in this case, Zodiac Killer Project is a movie that if you were in a city that played it during its limited run, then you had a chance to see it. Otherwise, it just came out VOD the day we're recording this, actually, Tuesday, January 6th. So as you're hearing this, it's out now. But voting for The Brick closes Sunday night, the 11th at midnight.

1:19:15So hopefully you're hearing this before then and you have a chance to see that movie. I will tell you this, and this isn't about swaying the vote at all. I don't think it's probably going to determine anything in the end. Josh, it really is just encouraging people to seek this movie out, that it's worth seeking it out at the end here, having a little bit of urgency. Listeners get a vote. I get a vote. You get a vote. Producer Sam gets a vote. At least one of us has Zodiac Killer Project number one on their golden brick ballot. So, so it is worth your time. and hopefully you will have the time to see it and do finish up your homework and vote.

1:19:59It'd be great. Yeah. I mean, hopefully, uh, did you run through these titles? Should I do that real quickly? The others, uh, please go ahead and where people can find them. Hopefully Zodiac killer project, as you mentioned on VOD right now is the last one and listeners have been dutiful and that's all they have to knock out. And you've already seen boys go to Jupiter. If you haven't, That's on VOD right now. Grand Theft Hamlet is available only via MUBI, a top 10 lister for me though. So I think it's worth checking out. Predators available Paramount Plus. And then our last finalist here, a little bit more availability.

1:20:36Sorry, baby, you can find on HBO Max or VOD as well. So five really compelling titles to give some thought to and choose your favorite for the Golden Brick Award. Next week, it might just be the wrap party and the announcement of the Golden Brick. Certainly, that will be enough show. But you said it, Josh. Some other titles are rolling out and expanding to more theaters. And it really is just a matter, well, at least for me. I don't know where you are, how much availability there is with some of these titles. But it's a matter of time for me. And the Jarmusch film, Father, Mother, Sister, Brother is expanding.

1:21:15I have an opportunity to see that, may be able to see it and talk about it on next week's show. And then a title that I know has gotten a lot of love here, End of Year. Some listeners have written in and said that this is a movie that needs to be seen, that may be, in fact, the best film of the year and may contain the best scene of the year. That's Be Gone's Resurrection. That's expanding. And apparently it's one you have to see on the big screen, Josh. So maybe I will, and maybe I'll report back. We'll see. I would love to do that as well. I don't know if availability, plus the fact that I have travel coming up, will make that possible.

1:21:54I will say this about next week's show, though. I am leaning towards mostly, I think, choosing scenes for our wrap party from films that were not on my top 10 list. So there will be some variety, maybe hitting some titles that listeners were wondering, where was that? Why didn't that come up? Will Resurrection be in there? Will Father, Mother, Sister, Brother be in there? Maybe, likely not for me, but we'll see what happens in the next week. So wait, you came up with a policy for your wrap party list? You didn't share this? Not a policy. I just, honestly, it kind of happened naturally. As I lean towards those picks that came to the top, I thought, well, that's kind of nice.

1:22:38We haven't actually talked a lot about that film. So yeah, I think it'll shake out that way. Okay. I am excited to hear about some of these titles. It's likely, Josh, I haven't seen some of the ones you're going to mention. We'll find out. Quick note here about our sister podcast, The Next Picture Show, looking at cinemas present via its past. In case our lengthy conversation about Marty Supreme was not enough, they are going to be discussing it as well in conjunction with The Hustler. Such a great film. I don't, Adam, you might need to send the Next Picture Show folks an email and tell them Marty Supreme is not a hustler.

1:23:18I don't, this is, you negate this pairing. This doesn't, this doesn't compute for you. Okay. They didn't consult me. They didn't consult me. I don't know what's wrong with those folks. Also, if you would like more talk about Avatar, Fire and Ash, that is in their feed. That's a conversation with Tasha Robinson and Keith Phipps. I was just listening to that today. Their reactions after seeing Fire and Ash. And yeah, the Next Picture Show folks do have their best of 2025 show dropping soon. You can find new episodes every Tuesday, wherever you get your podcasts.

1:23:56What should you do, Heathcliff, if you were rich?

1:24:05It's Paul's. I do all rich men do. Time for a new deeply flawed film spotting poll. In a couple of weeks, we will do our 2026 preview. Now, in our notes, producer Sam has a question. In what format? We haven't discussed that. time for a little on-air production meeting now josh back in the day and this this even includes since you joined the show we used to do a crazy thing we would just do a straightforward top five our most anticipated movies of the year the easy and the obvious one yeah now sometimes i think i was able to convince you to do something that you i know hate to do which is we would we would set aside, kind of put in the penalty box some of the overly obvious ones.

1:24:54Like, nobody needs to hear us talk about how excited we are about the new Wes Anderson film. But for the most part, we would do a straight top five. Then we switched to the questions format. Our top five questions about the movie year. Then we went to, please do the honors. Fully adieu. We went to like death matches. Yeah. We pitted two upcoming movies against each other, and we had to choose which one we were most excited about. Inspired, we should say, by your abiding love for Joker Folia Dew. That's it. Yeah. Of course. You just always wanted ways to fit that into the show. That's right. Now, I can't wait to ask you this question because I would bet a significant amount of money that you have zero recollection of how we did this.

1:25:45And to be fair, to be fair, I knew what it was, but when I looked it up, there was a detail that I had forgotten. So, so I didn't know it 100 % either. Do you recall what our approach was last year with our movie preview? I think I have an informed guess and I need to back up though and fill in the history here. The reason we went away from the questions is because we discovered that our questions were too unique and we weren't talking about the biggest movies of the year. Right. The bigger movies. So then we were, then we were getting feedback like, why are you doing a 2020, whatever preview?

1:26:23And you don't mention the Wes Anderson. So then we had to contort ourselves. Well, we actually had too many movies that it ended up, we didn't, we didn't end up reviewing some of the movies. We didn't even be talking about the movies that were in our, our preview. So, yeah. So it's all, it's all a vicious cycle. And then we had the folia do debacle. And I know what we did. Here's my guess. We also went through an extreme. I don't think we were fully out of it, but we went through an extreme draft for a phase where everything had to be a draft. was last year's preview a draft. It was a draft. There you go.

1:27:00It was a draft. The detail that I forgot was we did a top 10. We did a top 10. So we each had five picks, but it was just 10 picks in order alternating. You had the first pick. You picked the movie you were most excited about. That title, by the way, Mickey 17. Then I picked my number. I got my number one pick. Turns out pretty smart one. one battle after another. Yeah. Too bad it wasn't your number one of the year. That would have been perfect. I know. I know. And then we just, we just went back and forth until we had 10 titles that were our most anticipated of the year. So we obviously have lots of options.

1:27:42What are we going to do? So despite the shade I just threw at the draft idea, I kind of like that. I like that we covered. I thought it worked too. I thought it was good. We covered that many titles. Let's bring it up at our real production meeting with Sam this week and see if he feels the same, but that's kind of where I'm leaning. I am as well. And we'll see what Sam thinks and we'll see if listeners, the fact that it was his idea probably, and that we both like it, knowing Sam, that means he's going to come in with some cockamamie new idea that we will never have conceived of. And we'll be doing that.

1:28:21Sam, bring it to the table. Listeners, you can bring your ideas to the table as well. Now let's get back to the matter at hand. Our new poll question asks you to choose your most anticipated film of the new movie year that comes out before Memorial Day. So most anticipated film that comes out first half of the year. Josh, please give our listeners the options. Emerald Fennell with Wuthering Heights. That's starring Margot Robbie and Jacob Elordi. Maggie Gyllenhaal's The Bride with Jesse Buckley and Christian Bale. Lord and Miller's Project Hail Mary. Ryan Gosling. I know nothing about this. Sounds great.

1:29:02Oh, really? I've seen the preview. Yeah. Okay. How about Zendaya and Robert Pattinson in the drama? Sure. David Lowery's Pop World drama? Horror movie? Hmm. Mother Mary. Okay. I'm not sure what a pop world drama is, but I'm ready for it. Me either. This stars Anne Hathaway and Michaela Cole. The Devil Wears Prada 2 is another option. And then we will give you the choice of other. Yes. You can write in your pick if your most anticipated film is not there. Of those options, Josh, well, it turns out you don't know what most of those titles are. And I barely know what some of those titles are. So it's hard to pick.

1:29:46It's hard to pick. I guess just going off of actor or director, what stands out? I mean, The Bride, The Bride probably stands out to some extent. I've been aware of The Bride for quite some time. I'm still on a Frankenstein high. It was on our preview last year. I think it was. I think it was. Yeah. Del Toro's Frankenstein almost made my top 10.

1:30:09I'm belated but fully on board with Jesse Buckley after Hamnet. so I want to go there. You know what? I think I'm going to go there because excited about Wuthering Heights, really a novel I love, but you know, it's just an adaptation. The bride seems to be doing something a little differently. I'm leaning towards the Zendaya, Robert Pattinson, because I appreciate both of them so much as actors. And I assuming the drama is an original concept, perhaps not. I mean, it's not like something that's familiar. A new 824 film. Okay. Not as familiar as Frankenstein or Wuthering Heights. So right now I'm torn between the drama, knowing nothing else, and The Bride.

1:30:54How about you? It's written and directed by someone I'm not familiar with, Christopher Borgley. The logline here is a happily engaged couple is put to the test when an unexpected turn sends their wedding week off the rails. April 3rd is when the drama is scheduled to come out, Josh. So for some reason, that pushes me towards the bride. I just, I don't know. You heard wedding and you're like, I don't need it. Been there, done that. Let's go with, yeah, I wish I could go in a major different direction, but the bride, and especially with that cast, is where I'm leaning. So I'm going to pick the bride.

1:31:36you can vote in that poll and leave a comment at filmspotting.net. We will share your results in a couple of weeks.

1:32:03we do have one more quick review to get in this is just some viewing josh that i did right before we started recording. As harrowing as the experience was, I thought it was important to try to fit in. And the movie is called The Voice of Hind Rajab, directed by and written by, and I apologize if I'm mispronouncing the name here, Kowther Ben-Hania, who may be familiar to you, I can't remember, Josh, we did talk about and recommend Four Daughters on the show, but was that one that I recommended or did we discuss that movie together? Do you recall reviewing that movie? Yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah. If I, it's, if it's the one I'm thinking of, yeah.

1:32:53Yeah. It's 2023. I'm pulling it up now. A fascinating film. Yeah. Really good. Really interesting film, blending, blending fiction and nonfiction. And that is a movie I put in the category. I talked about it in terms of the the ecstatic truth documentary style. Very, very Herzogian, right? Where you have you have a woman who lost her two daughters who, without getting into the details, are no longer part of her family. And so the filmmaker casts two young women to play her daughters and in that artifice or through that artifice hopes to find some kind of answers and find some kind of catharsis in that.

1:33:41Really good movie. The voice of Hinn Rajab is doing something somewhat similar, only in the basic way that it is blurring fiction and nonfiction. It is deeply disturbing and vital. The film is about Red Crescent volunteers who receive an emergency call. It is based on a true story of a five or six year old girl named Hin Rajab, who is in a car, was in a car traveling with four of her cousins and her aunt and uncle. and she gets caught in fire in in a firefight in gaza and ends up on the phone pleading for rescue josh and she is only this little girl is only you know is only eight minutes away from these volunteers but of course getting an ambulance to her is not is not as simple as it should certainly be.

1:34:48The blurring here is that everyone who performs in the movie, it is completely focused on the Red Crescent volunteers. They are all actors, and they are all performing from a script that Ben Hania has written. But we hear the real girl, the real Hind Rajab, that is all her audio, the actual audio. From the call.

1:35:28You can imagine. How. How horrifying it is to. In what feels like real time. To have to sit with those characters knowing. How helpless they are. despite all of their efforts to try to get to her. And something that stands out to me from the film is there are two moments where the manager of this center, he brings up to the character who first, the man who first took the call, this guy named Omar. He's deeply affected by this, as you would expect. And he twice lights up a cigarette or tries to light up a cigarette. And the manager tells him, you can't smoke in here. And these moments pass by Josh very quickly, but you just can't help but watch and hear that and think about the absurdity in a way, right?

1:36:28Of this, this, I don't know what to call it other than a call center. That's what it feels like. And there's a sterility and a banality to the setting here. we never see the girl. We never see the firefight. We only hear it. Otherwise, we are focused only on those volunteers at the call center. You think about the absurdity of this world in which everything is dictated by protocols. The word coordination is used a hundred times in the movie, except everything seems to be uncoordinated and nothing is working the way it should, and it's a mess. And think about just the horror itself about what's occurring and what kind of just world do these things occur?

1:37:16What rules are being followed that allow these types of atrocities to occur? And yet in this place, you can't light up a cigarette. There's rules forbidding that that have to be followed. And then as absurd as that is, you think, well, that also that does matter. that that's important that we have rules that that in places where where civility does exist we need to keep making sure that we're enforcing rules and and those are some of the things that the the movie makes you consider while you're thinking about so many other things watching it and certainly it's not a movie it's not a movie that you have to be a parent to to have a a very tough viewing experience with or to be affected by emotionally.

1:38:05Absolutely not. But especially when you have a five or six-year-old young girl at home like I do, and when you hear your daughter and she is suffering in any kind of way, and your only instinct is to try to help her, and you hear this girl on the phone and you think about the way she's suffering and understand that nobody can help her, that's where the angst, for lack of a better word, really does occur watching this film. But as I said, I think it's an important film that people need to see that is out now. Yeah. That mixture of fact and dramatization, which, as you said, Four Daughters includes.

1:38:50In Four Daughters, it made me think also Herzog, as you said, but Abbas Kyrostami and films like Close Up, being in that tradition of pursuing truths about the human experience through the use of both tools, of fact, harrowing fact, and also dramatization that maybe brings us into the moment in a different way. It sounds, as you said, like a tough watch, but yeah, a crucial one, especially you think about hearing these stories like this. I remember when this broke, you know, and, and it made headlines, uh, in the States and then the next tragedy happens and you kind of forget about it. So there's also something important, I think about bringing this back to the fore because the situation that it describes is still ongoing.

1:39:43The voice of Henry job is out now in limited release. And Josh, that's our show. If you'd like to connect with us on social media, you can find Adam and the show on Instagram, Facebook, Letterboxd, and YouTube, all at FilmSpotting. Yeah, I think I'm at each of those places as well. You can find me at Larson on Film. We are independently produced and listener supported. You can support the show by joining the FilmSpotting family at FilmSpottingFamily.com. You can listen early and ad-free. You'll get a weekly newsletter, monthly bonus episodes, and access to the entire show archive. For show t-shirts and other merch, go to filmspotting.net slash shop.

1:40:27In that film spotting archive, you can find two conversations with the Safdie brothers talking about Uncut Gems, episode 757, and Good Time, episode 645. And yes, there's Avatar talk before you join the show, Josh, a film spotting fix from January 2010, and then later Avatar The Way of Water from December 2022. In limited release, Jim Jarmusch's father, mother, sister, brother with Adam Driver, Kate Blanchett, Tom Waits, and Charlotte Rampling. This is the winner of the Golden Lion at last year's Venice Film Festival. Kristen Stewart's directing debut, The Chronology of Water with Imogen Poots and Thora Birch, and as I mentioned, the voice of Hinn Rajab from the director of 2023's Four Daughters.

1:41:11In wide release, the sequel to 2020's comet-striking Earth movie Greenland with Gerard Butler, Greenland 2, colon, migration. Are you ready, Josh? Greenland's in the news. I was just thinking about this. Can Gerard Butler save Greenland from the Trump administration? I certainly, certainly hope so. I hope so as well. Also, Primate, the feature-length version of the most entertaining trailer of the new movie year, the tagline, there's something wrong with Ben. Ben is a chimp and here's the thing wrong with him. It's rabies. Come on. Come on. Hey, it seems to be anyway, as flight of the Concord said, leave those poor monkeys alone.

1:41:58They've got problems enough of their own. In other news, it's January at the multiplex next week. As we have mentioned a few times, come on back for our scenes of the year and we'll see what else we get up to. Film Spotting is produced by Golden Joe Dessau and Sam Van Halgren. Without Sam and Golden Joe, this show wouldn't go. Our production assistant is Sophie Kempinar. Special thanks to everyone at WBEZ Chicago. More information is available at WBEZ.org. For Film Spotting, I'm Josh Larson. And I'm Adam Kempinar. Thanks for listening. This conversation can serve no purpose anymore. Goodbye.

1:42:44film spotting is listener supported join the film spotting family at filmspottingfamily.com and get access to ad-free episodes monthly bonus shows our weekly newsletter and for the first time all in one place the entire film spotting archive going back to 2005 that's a filmspottingfamily.com panoply